Design Update: State of the Game

[[LGT]DevilDante]

The thing is doing things like that you need to be careful as it will just become like LoL where it does not matter who gets the farm and the game just becomes dull and with less strat. Also champs like hag will become gods.

[MeVe]

dude what are you talking about?

ghost = :EnhancedMarchers:
Clarity = :RingOfSorcery:

both were dota ports. not to mention the ridiculously long cd time for those spells.

At the moment I would love to see a push strat that's less affected by the usual gank squad. Gank has become too much of a trend now that you see less of other strategies going around

ghost in LoL make you faster than ghost marcher and it last more seconds, strider are endless haste to engage a battle.

Ring of Sorcery cost 1675 gold, no need other to explain.

[OH`HAI]

From what I have seen, I think the current meta game is either fine the way it is, or just a few tweaks need to be made with the kinks of the game. Honestly like there is no need to "MAKE" the game go by faster, if people want to play a game to go by faster, that's why there is EASY mode and such, for people to get in, kill 4-5 people and get fed and end the game fast, have their fun there. Of course normal/non-em is fine the way it is for people who want to run games with their set five/team and run out the strategies they want to do or just plain out play for fun, whatever they want. People bought this game because well honestly, coming from me who never played DOTA, I watched my cousins and friends play DOTA and thought to myself, looks fun but, WC3 graphics engine sucks and just doesn't look very appealing to me. Then when I was told about HON I was appealed by the graphics, although not insanely stunning and stuff, I figured it would be enough for others to play as well and it looked pretty good.

I stopped playing for a bit just to take a bit of a break from it and I come back to these items called Striders and Chalice, they are alright, they definitely change the game by a huge margin, everyone knows the current meta game is gank gank gank heavy and the new "tri-lanes" are being played out; I can agree on alter some things to maybe change up the scene a bit or make it more viable to use other strategies; but I do not see a point in almost changing the entire gameplay and layout of the game, people bought this game for a reason, because it was a remake of DOTA that was prettier and although not 100% the same, it was damn near enough to make them buy it for 30 bucks, not to have it change into an entirely different game.

[MeVe]

I bought this game because was DotA, HoN is no more DotA, I'll buy DOTA 2 because is DotA.

[Jeroz]

ghost in LoL make you faster than ghost marcher and it last more seconds, strider are endless haste to engage a battle.

Ring of Sorcery cost 1675 gold, no need other to explain.

Ghost: "Your Champion ignores unit collision and moves 27% faster for 14 seconds."
:EnhancedMarchers: :+12% Movement Speed, Unitwalking
Strider:When out of combat for 6 seconds, increases movespeed by 100 over the next 2 seconds. No unit walking

Strider is more similar to another boot from LoL than to Ghost. Revise the fact first please. Yes the stats will be twitched, but it's natural given the basic stats are different from both games.
Also, the reason why LoL has those spells is so people DON'T have to spend money on the items. Are you seriously using the fact that you have to spend money RoC as a counter argument? well guess what Blood Chalice costs you 650 gold as well.

[MeVe]

Blood Chalice cost 350 gold after in lane and you can buy it on outpost.

Ring cost 1500 after in lane and you need the recipe.

That's how all has been ruined.

[pablofsi]

Yeah, and ring has an aoe mana healing which heals 675 mana to the whole team. Compare it with the 150 mana healing that provides chalice to one person.

[OH`HAI]

Yeah, and ring has an aoe mana healing which heals 675 mana to the whole team. Compare it with the 150 mana healing that provides chalice to one person.

He makes a pretty good point...

[MeVe]

Yeah, and ring has an aoe mana healing which heals 675 mana to the whole team. Compare it with the 150 mana healing that provides chalice to one person.

Im talking about lane, no big problem of chalice outside of lane phase..

Like strider outside of ganking phase ( in 5vs5 are not so powerfull )

[Mendo]

TL;DR
lots of awsome ****

[[S2]Maliken]

There is no itention of "making" or forcing games to go faster. If teams are incentivized to push more and to engage in PvP action more, games will shorten across the 10's of 1000's of matches played daily on average. We currently see ~38 min games. We would like to see that shorten by 10-15%

There are no new huge changes to be had here. HoN is not taking a drastic step in one direction or another. As Fielding always says, don't underestimate the power of small tweaks.

[OH`HAI]

Well even with that said, I was wondering why even after you pushed out your new hero there were no post or like anything on your main website as like the ones for Flint, Doctor, and Tundra. You guys just kinda made him and threw him into a new patch without much word on the matter, at least I didn't see much promo for him.

[[BRO]Natial]

I am very glad you guys post this information here. LIKE!

[Cyferion]

Looking forward to a game where Pyro is actually picked..
has always been a better pick than

:
Phoenix Wave

Now deals additional 10/20/30/40 damage for ever charge of Fervor (burn) on target.



Blazing Strike


Grants Pyromancer with 4 charges of Fervor if fervor is leveled.

How will this change pyro? First, Fervor making Phoenix Wave deal more damage depending on stacks of Fervor on the target, will allow Pyromancer to scale better late-game as he will be able to stack more Fervor with more attack speed.
Secondly, Pyromancer will now use Blazing Strike as an Opener to maximize the use of the instant 4 stacks on Fervor granting him huge attackspeed to stack fervor (burn) on the target, then finish him off with a highly-fervor-stacked Phoenix Wave

Lina Inverse
- Laguna Blade (Aghanim's version) damage increased from 600/875/1150 to 600/925/1250

[[H]RaiN`]

i'm looking forward to these changes! for people who play hon not that frequently like me, its always frustrating to play your one single game per day, spending nearly an hour of your time and ending with a score of 1-6-15 bcuz playing support and maybe losing the game too...

after such games i think everytime why i wasted this hour of lifetime which was meant to make me happy and distract me from serious working stuff but just mad me angry and frustrated.

[burntchomsky]

I posted an item in [Suggested] for supports which attempted to address most of what was mentioned about the "support problem" in Fielding's post.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...d.php?t=175445

The other thing the item does is give a small amount of "assist gold" to supports in the area of a carry when he is last hitting. The idea being that this would support good babysitting early in the game. Might not be at all viable, but I have thought for awhile that there needs to be more incentive for playing supports in this game than there is currently.

[Fieri]

For example, in an evenly matched game, if a team fight occurs and 4 people from each team die, more gold is lost in player deaths than is gained in player kills (assuming no players were on a kill streak and therefore worth bonus gold). The net result is that team fights are, quite often, taking more gold out of the game than they introduce. This is the type of thing that does nothing other than slow the game pace down and indirectly discourages team fights and engagements.

Another issue we're observing relates to how gold distribution is handled. There is currently not much of a distinction between a player who is actively engaged in helping get kills, resulting in a lot of assists, and a player who does not aim to help by assisting. In the interest of encouraging more team vs team engagements, this is something we're looking into. There's a big difference between a 1-8-20 Demented Shaman, for example, and a 1-8-5. We want to take steps to make sure that the player who is actively attempting to help out the team and participate in fights is being rewarded above players that play too passively.

The problem of hon being a nonzero sum game (at least, when it comes to gold) is not one that I see as easily fixable or maybe even a problem. Lessening the gold penalty for dying buffs carries; increasing the gold earned when you kill someone encourages pubstomping, punishes inexperienced players even more, and could result in swingy games. Additionally, I am not sure that this actually slows down the game that much. Opponents deprived of gold are more likely to lose, shortening the game. Opponents who do not lose as much gold are more likely to be able to keep fighting you for longer, prolonging the game. Only if you reward players more for kills do you potentially shorten games because a single early team fight might decide an entire game. But this last option seems undesirable as well.

I am not sure if players need more in-game incentive to help assisting. The difference between 1-8-20 and an 1-8-5 Demented Shaman is that the first one's team wins, and the other one's team may not. Good players do not need further incentive. Some tweaks could be done (lessen the gold for a kill slightly, increase the gold for an assist slightly) but the implications could be pretty big.

More generally, I see games with blood chalice and striders as already fast paced. Turtling is still possible and viable, but even in competitive games, I do not see turtle fests all that often. Additionally, making trade offs such as letting their carry farm for getting your own carry farmed are tactically interesting, even if they aren't mindblowingly exciting. Rewarding pushing might be the only thing you need to do to encourage team fights and pushing as a strategy more generally.

I think some interesting tweaks could be made to give heroes in general more variety and support heroes more specifically. This could happen at an item level, or at an ability level (for example, I am surprised we still have the +2 to stats option in hon after level 16, when at least some heroes could be designed / redesigned to scale a little differently). As has been said, these tweaks could be made without making supports into carry-like heroes.

[vocab]

Youd base the source engine off those... really?

Whats wrong with CSS(great game with around the same amount of people playing it than 1.6). TF2 was better than tf1. DODS was terrible. How bout hl2 though? l4d? portal?

CSS is a horrible port job. Made the game slower, less competitive, completely random, bigger hitboxes, ****ed up recoil, inconsistent net code (1.6 is guilty of this as well), and a huge amount of bugs that will never get fixed. It feels very unfinished, and the lack of polish is a huge turn off.
TF2 being better than TFC is debatable. The games achievement farming, and item whoring, and random crits should stay out of fps. I know the appeal, but the game play isn't all that balanced. Every class has broken ****. Both games pale in comparison to the original Team fortress in Quake.
DODS is terrible.

Those other games were built for that engine, so they get a pass since they weren't port jobs (ala Half Life source, which is crappy). Dota2 is essentially going to be a 1:1 port right? It will meet the same fate as CSS. People will play it, but the audience it's for won't accept it. People take the competitive features hon have for granted, and will soon realize this when Dota2 comes out with poor stat tracking, and the bad replay system the source engine is capable of.

[Xuconnie]

Don't underestimate the power of small tweaks means remake every hero and not do small tweaks :]

[[BZi]EGNesTea420]

and the bad replay system the source engine is capable of.

There's a good chance it'll be able to support something like HLTV if you think about it.

Also the thing about TF2 is that comp is generally played with no crits on and mostly default weapons. The rest of the stuff are for pub games. TFC was a great game but the nade spam was really annoying.