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Keep it the way it is in 0.1.41 (max distance 1650, not toggleable)
Revert it back to being toggleable in the console
Add a UI option to change the max distance with options to have it >1650
I'm really struggling to see ANY reason for this that's worth even considering.Originally Posted by avenger213
The primary argument for restricting window size is that it makes the game more skillful. But that's like putting blinders on people playing basketball.
Imagine if everyone playing basketball or soccer had horse blinders on... and had to move their heads all over the place because they had no peripheral vision? Probably would increase the skill of the game to some extent. But it would mostly be stupid.
The skill in this game comes from team work, understanding core game mechanics (tiny zoom level doesn't count), and general hand eye coordination.
I don't think you need more then that to have a good game that's competitive and fun.
The tiny zoom level was made doubtless to placate some inflexible dota super beta testers that want the game to be such a complete clone of dota that there's little point even making HoN in the first place.
I was about to pre order HoN... but I had assumed S2 was going to make a bigger zoom angle standard. I really was caught completely off guard when they did this... and can't buy the game if they don't change their mind on it.
At the very least, let it be a server option where the host can enable players to have wider zoom levels.I'll make a point of only hosting those types of games and never joining games without that feature. I think that's a win win.
If I'm right, that setting should become so pervasive even if it's not on by default that the other servers should become irrelevant.
Love and peace, Karmashock.
No, it's not, and neither is that. (To anyone who would criticize my grammar, I'm not claiming it's perfect)
"the worst players" still won't dodge it intentionally. Good players might be able to take advantage of the split-second, but this really boils down to someone relying on the shitty camdistance rather than the fog of war for surprise attacks.
OH NOES, THEY DONE SAW US RUNNING DOWN THE RIVER AND GOT AWAY! DAT MEDDLING CAMDISTANCE!
You can see a cluster of circles on your minimap regardless of the camdistance. It doesn't magically reveal your position if you actually bother to keep out of sight.
bump for votes
1) My parents use my old computers, that are left over when I buy new ones, not vice versa. In fact, it's probably close to 10 years since my parents bought me any electronics.
2) For someone who is criticizing lack of reading skills, you sure fail a lot. Please re-read my post and write where I wrote anything about widescreens in particular.
3) To spell it out for you, the issue is not with a WIDE screen, the issue is with the screen size and viewing distance. Sitting at a normal distance with a 24"+ screen and playing at 1650 is terrible. The more screen size increases, the more terrible it becomes.
Where did I write, that you should get one? Nowhere. If you like a 17" or whatever screen, I am perfectly fine with it. I am also perfectly fine with you running any zoom level you want. What I am not fine with, is people halting technical progress, because they don't see the need in more zoom levels. The "I don't need it, so don't change it" attitude.I don't want one, for god's sake.
How is this useful? You have the minimap for that. Zooming out beyond a certain point makes no sense, since you will just not be able to click correctly, as everything will be too small.My screen (If somebody calls it TFT again... Grrrr) is just fine. It can display the whole map if it wasn't for software limitations. Hell, it can do it better than a widescreen, since the map's a square, not a rectangle.
Also, generally, I think we are on the same side. It seems that you take this issue so personally, that you instantly respond with flames without reading.
Also...
Currently there is no code present that checks for memory alterations on the client (not that there is a good way to do this... especially on multiple platforms). Either way, a read-only value should be read-only by means other, than checking it with a simple "if" when it's typed in console.
As it stands now you can disable that check by NOP-ing a single instruction. Or even easier, overwrite the value in memory at start of game. Client-side protection/enforcement does not really work in a client-server model either, since it will just be hacked anyway, and from a coding perspective you should generally never trust the client.
So if S2 wants to make a big deal out of enforcing it, they should probably put that variable somewhere deeper/hardcode it into the engine/whatever, so that you don't get issues with hacking in high level play.
Last edited by GM; 09-07-2009 at 10:11 AM.
I read your post out of context in some guy's quote, and I've read more than enough people telling others to "stop QQing, throw away that CRT and buy a proper screen", not to mention insults to "scrubs", so... I just apologized last page, anyway =P
But yeah, I'm off this topic (Well, all of these. It was mostly the "aspect ratios" one). There's been nothing but flames, I got pissed, and there's no point in any of it: the poll speaks loud enough, so I'll just wait, and preorder if they change it...
Just one thing:
I was just talking about all the people saying that we shouldn't complain if widescreens have a better FOV, since it's our fault for having "outdated" screens. The only reason we can't have as much FOV as we want is the zoom limitation.
Last edited by Elman; 09-07-2009 at 10:26 AM.
Meh... it's not about the gameplay issues per se.
It's just, that the current state of the thing is like having cruise control on your car, which is disabled, because a wire is cut. People with a little bit of know-how can reconnect that wire in 5 minutes, others will be left without the feature.
The solution is either fix it and make it adjustable for all, or yank out the entire cruise control module. This doesn't stop people from fitting an aftermarket cruise control though.
This is due to the fact that the state of everything, that is not in the fog of war, is still sent to the client, so no one stops a hacker from hooking the client and displaying all that info anyway.
Just as it is the case with maphacks, before S2 stopped the server from sending status updates on units in the fog of war.
Its just insane that people will consider a hack just to be aesthetically appeased but thats the position S2 has put us in
If people would go this far, and some programs are already out to modify or unlock the value, doesn't that give you some idea about how irritating the current default camera is? If it was "no big deal" people would just live with it and not care. But people are going so far as to hack the game to unlock it, or simply not play at all until something is done about it.
It seems the objective of HoN/DotA is to move the move the camera around as frantically as possible whilst staring at the minimap and racking up the highest number of actions per minute as you can. Whoever has the highest APM score at the end wins!
Right now I'm sorely tempted to mangle the appearance of the game by going 4:3 on my widescreen LCD.
Why? Because that way you get to see more of the top and bottom. It's somewhat annoying that I actually have to move the screen focus off-centre just to see where valk's attacks land. (And I'm not referring to the javelin skill.)
i played several games with this new camera distance and i still don't like it. Please, revert it back or add UI for this!
One of my first thought playin the game was that the camera distance was limiting my game play. Good camera distance gives me a strange feeling of control and highres of the game. now its more like playing 800x640 settings..
I'd say camdist max 2000.
A fixed camdistance is important. Wether it be 1650 or more. Just keep in mind that some distances over 2k cause trouble for some players and not everyone likes it.
It's not just aesthetics but an advantage in gameplay. People tend to consider hacks for that reason.
Last edited by Jinnai; 09-08-2009 at 08:34 AM.
Lots of RTS games have free zoom camera angles and it doesn't hurt the competitiveness at all.
Further, it doesn't cause problems in any of those other games. Explain what "problems" means. If you mean the computer can't handle the graphics I beg to differ. The engine is efficient enough to allow free zoom at least 4000 on low end systems so long as you set your detail settings to something rational.
Also games iwth free zoom tend to substitute lots of graphics at range with more simplistic models. At that range it looks the same but it's easier for the computer to process. When you zoom in polygon count goes up and effect detail scales. This is pretty common technology in games these day and has been standard for probably about 10 years at least.
As to an advantage, if everyone can do what they want with it then no one has an advantage.
This is a dumb disagreement. If you want things in magnified vision then do that. Others find it extremely irritating.
<--- This is not for you, but for the tiny zoom on this game. It's really unacceptable.
I aggre that the zoom might should be adjusted, BUT still the zoom level is a part of the game and a increased zoom level rapidly decreases the time before your opponent notices your gank or whatever.
I would really want the zoom to be like 1700 because I think the zoom is not a problem i only want to se a little bit more and i also think that ppl who say "I say a simple 2000 will be enough" should reconsider, because in HoN you are only supposed to see your own charcter and the reduced zoom causes u to look in back of your hero and look in front of the hero and that way "you simulates the way that the hero look". YOU DO NOT PLAY A ALLSEEING GOD, U PLAY A HERO, PERIOD.
And KARMASHOCK, in other RTS:s you are supposed to control ~30 units at a time and how much u see is irrellevant, BUT IN HON IT MAKE DIFFERENSES because u dont want to be seen and the vision is a very key in this game, an exampel of that is dark ladys ult which reduces vision, also concidered very OP.
Last edited by arnold_swe; 09-08-2009 at 09:32 AM.
Only if your enemy is
1. Bad
2. He can see you because you've left the fog.
if your enemy knows how to look at the minimap and you come on top of him out of the fog... such as coming out of the trees, blinking, or some kind of invisibility... or just encircling them so they can't get away regardless... then you don't have a problem.
This is the same against good players that check the minimap.
Look, if you want to keep teh current level of zoom, then make all hero models and gamp items smaller to compensate. The net result will be the same as zooming out. But whatever gets us what we need.
WC3 had much smaller hero models at normal zoom. If Dota is the gold standard we still get more zoom then we've got now.
Angles don't matter. It's only about zooming out and in this kind of game it does effect the balance. There are hacks to zoom farther out in WC3 and they will get you banned for a reason. (SC2 will also have a fixed maxdistance, so here you got the two probably most important competitive RTS games as an example.)Lots of RTS games have free zoom camera angles and it doesn't hurt the competitiveness at all.
Further, it doesn't cause problems in any of those other games. Explain what "problems" means. If you mean the computer can't handle the graphics I beg to differ. The engine is efficient enough to allow free zoom at least 4000 on low end systems so long as you set your detail settings to something rational.
Also games iwth free zoom tend to substitute lots of graphics at range with more simplistic models. At that range it looks the same but it's easier for the computer to process. When you zoom in polygon count goes up and effect detail scales. This is pretty common technology in games these day and has been standard for probably about 10 years at least.
As to an advantage, if everyone can do what they want with it then no one has an advantage.
This is a dumb disagreement. If you want things in magnified vision then do that. Others find it extremely irritating.
Some games are simply designed to be played at an fixed distance and so is HoN. The size of all units and terrain is adjusted to this maximum distance. Easy targeting and clarity are important. Now if you have the choice to zoom farther out, you throw this away for overview. However a professional game should bring those to a balance and this is done with a fixed camdistance and a minimap.
Imo.
PS:
Zooming in is for aesthtics, zooming out if for overview. Don't get it mixed up.
need -- more -- zoom (2k max)
My Custom Maps
Rampage Runner (SP) - showthread.php?t=255701
SokoHoN (SP) - showthread.php?t=246141
Chess of Newerth (MP) - showthread.php?t=312907
The fact is, that people only care about themselves.
Most posts here are:
1) I like it this way, so it shouldn't be changed
2) Number xxx should be maximum, because I like it that way
3) It will screw up balance!!111 (when it has been multiple times proved, that it will not).
It should either be completely fixed, or freely adjustable without limits, preferably the latter.
False. A rotating image would be helpful.
I know in most RTS games I like my base to be in a certain direction so I tend to rotate the map and minimap so that the orientation is correct.
What part of balance is effected if everyone is able to do this?It's only about zooming out and in this kind of game it does effect the balance.
Only because WC3 doesn't do it by default.There are hacks to zoom farther out in WC3 and they will get you banned for a reason.
Please explain why it actually harms balance.
"blizzard does it" is not a reason.(SC2 will also have a fixed maxdistance, so here you got the two probably most important competitive RTS games as an example.)
I agree that they are programmed to be that way but I don't believe the game mechanics must work that way or that htey're strongly effected by it one way or another.Some games are simply designed to be played at an fixed distance and so is HoN.
I think you've mostly got a bias towards things working a certain way and want that to stay the same.
The problem is that it's pointlessly restrictive and what seems to be the majority are used to something different.
None of that would be effected.The size of all units and terrain is adjusted to this maximum distance. Easy targeting and clarity are important.
Games no less competitive have free zoom. I'm sorry, but your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense.Now if you have the choice to zoom farther out, you throw this away for overview. However a professional game should bring those to a balance and this is done with a fixed camdistance and a minimap.
Well, you can't say I get an advantage if I zoom out if zooming out only gives me overview. The fact of the matter is that you know I can zoom out much farther and still be able to last hit as well. That implies that the zoom balance is not correct. The correct zoom should be where the player has the best sight in all situations without overly sacrificing anything. I think S2 is proud of their graphics and so zoomed us in first so we could see how pretty the game is... however it makes it very annoying to play the game when giving a simple retreat command can mean accidentally clicking on the top of the mini map.Zooming in is for aesthtics, zooming out if for overview. Don't get it mixed up.
I do that all the time. I feel trapped in this view. It's very tiny. It's like riding in an airplane seat all all the time with my legs mushed up. I need a bit more space. Otherwise I have to make 10 clicks instead of 1. I have to rapidly click just behind me a few times... move the view back a bit... and then click again... while still moving the view constantly.
It's a pain in the ass. It's bad for the game. And no one has yet to explain why increasing the zoom would hurt balance.
Being able to see more of your immediate vicinity when you're only seeing what's out of fog anyway is NOT a hack. It is just a superior interface. What we have now is an inferior interface. It feels inferior. It's annoying.
Have you seen the SC2 gameplay videos? The units are much smaller and as such you players don't feel like view is being forced in to any extreme amount.
Yesterday I was on vent with my four e-buddies and one of them asked if we were gonna buy HoN. We all laughed b/c we haven't played HoN nearly as much as when we could change camdistance and most of our time we spend in the game now is complaining about the camdistance. Obviously, we're not buying this and the main reason is due to camdistance.
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