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Currently Scout has no place to promote a fun and competitive game.
It's not necessarily a complaint about unbalance (though I believe his windwalk is incredibly due to the movement speed it gives and is one of the main reasons this problem persists) but a complaint that the hero ruins games for everyone playing. He is picked in 8 out of 10 pub games played for the sole reason of stat whoring. People will either stomp their unskilled opponents with him or otherwise get a few kills and never die since his escape abilities are ridiculously strong. With the emphasis put on stats due to its availability this problem is perpetuating.
Now I can understand the competitive idea behind him and the balancing done with the hero, but my argument is that just because theres a certain way you want him to be played, there is unfortunately a certain way people will actually play him and ruin the game for everyone. If he is on your team you are assured that he will do nothing but stat whore and not contribute a single thing other than temporary wards. He also has absolutely no late-game potential no matter what items you put on him-- he can't push a lane to save a game. If he IS played "correctly" he still is a rather useless hero that has no place in a game due to his complete uselessness late-game-- his wards aren't enough to merit him taking the role that any other hero can fill. He is also boring-- all you can expect out of him is to land a single damaging nuke--and or if you're playing against him all you need to know is that you should never go below 40% or he can pick 1 of you off.
I've played games where I'm the scout going 33-1 and I've played the games against a scout who is doing absolutely nothing but being a thorn in the side--either way he doesn't make for a fun game allowing for strategy and synergy unless your team is built completely with multiple single-target stuns. He just doesn't contribute to fun games and he is abused more often than not.
Bounty Hunter was already pushing the limits on bad manner hero pick in DotA for 95% of the situations he was picked in, but Scout goes over the edge in this department. With no way of banning heroes in games if I intend to play a pub game it is inevitable that someone will pick the plague that is Scout. I'm sure he was made with good intentions, but the hero is too enticing for selfish players to pick and ruin everyone else's experience.
This post goes up as a warning also against bad manner heroes. Heroes like the original Naix, Anti-Mage, this new wind-walking naix replacement. Heroes that contribute pretty much absolutely nothing to team play or the early/mid game but are very 'enticing' picks for selfish/noob players that expect their team to surround their strategy around them for them as they contribute nothing, have arguably simply overpowered escaping abilities, and have little to offer to a game. When people pick heroes that make players sigh because they know there's nothing interesting to come because of it you know the hero probably isn't the best thought-out of them all.
Last edited by kewne; 07-03-2009 at 07:16 AM.
While I disagree with most of your points, I also agree that something with scout just doesn't quite fit at the moment, maybe its as simple as reducing the speedbuff he gets from windwalk- maybe not.
I've used scout to push enemies heroes into a very tight group so Behe can portalkey in and decimate a whole team; there are ways to use every hero in a helpful team way, just like there are ways to use most heroes in a less helpful way.
I don't think totally re-working the whole character is nessecery, he is useful for teaching people how to counter a particular type of chararacter with items/skills.
As more heroes are added he will also be in less games and have more counters available to him, this will reduce this issue I think.
I feel he has his place, but right now he's very strong either due to his skills or the lack of counter-heroes available.
there is definitely a lack of counter-heroes available, that is correctOriginally Posted by Rippsy
However you can argue with or against my points about how 'fun' or 'balanced' the hero is, but I find it hard for anyone to argue that he isn't picked in a majority of games and people are stacking items such as a Codex 5 on him (and he definitely has the mana pool to support this) and ruining games. The spirit of the character just screams selfish-stat whoring player and I'm sure everybody would like the play with less of those. His very ability to have complete survivability with zero stat/escape items just allows people to farm up these builds without a worry about becoming a useless feeder- the one thing that prevents people from doing this on most other heroes.
Scout is annoying in HoN as much as it is in Savage 2. I think S2 guys are pretty good at porting all points of scout, including frustrating ones.
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=951
I agree with your posting. He is useless for the team and nothing but a killstealer/statwhore-hero.
1) Vanish too strong
2) Wards too useless
3) Passive ability takes up a slot which could have been a cool ACTIVE ability.
4) Ultimate doesnt even synergize well with the hero, but at least it is okay.
Inconmon I have to disagree with the ultimate not syngergizing - and the wards are useful. I like scout, I just feel he needs a little tweak in the right direction of a few more counters available.
I've not seen anyone in HoN bulid a necro-book(Don't know the HoN name sorry!) to counter him yet which is usually a staple item in DotA for gondar. Also a sheepstick, since it shoudl remove his evasion and he is a low HP hero. Right now too few people understand how to counter him which is making him excessively strong. Wait for a few more heroes to appear and people to learn the ways that make him worthless and he'll stop appearing in so many games!
The problem isnt that scout is strong. Hes good at getting the last hits and thats it. If you stop playing against 0.1:1 ratio players you will notice that he cannot farm anyone; only get the last hits after others did the work. Dust/Wards are both enough to deal with scout and gem is close to overkill as long as he isnt farmed.
The wards suck. Obviously they are useful. Close to everything is useful. If his passive would be "+2/4/6/8% crit" it would also be useful. Still its too weak and so are his wards.
And the ultimate.. it is not good to catch running heroes because once you lose LoS its canceled. So you basicly you need ANOTHER hero to do your job (chasing) that you can actually use it. And usually if another hero is chasing you are prolly killstealing. With the added slow it at least fulfills that role of damaging/slowing running heroes so your team can finish them off.
You can also use it as opener, which means you need to get close after. If you vanish and attack, you will have cooldown for a long time.
As the cooldown is pretty short it could be decent for harass along with vanish. Sadly vanish-harass is negated by a single RoR (lifetube) and the ultimate still has a too long cd to force anyone of the lane. In a game which was single lane me vs scout with scout getting all runes thx to his ward I was forced off the lane ONCE in the first 14 levels and it took me 2 nukes to send the scout heal.
So what is the ultimate exactly? Its not good for harass, its a decent opener for ganks and its only good to finish of runners if someone else is chasing.
Its not great, but at least its okay -- as I said before.
He's a very cheap hero early on, and very annoying. Still, I'd rather play against a scout in the end of the game rather than luna.
I use the wards at the places they would prob run away to, then SNIPE THEM DOWN.
Scouts passive is a very worthless skill, it adds 10% (??) crit for 1.25/1.5/1.75/2 (can't remember the numbers right now) and evasion 5/10/15/20, as an agility he migth get wingbow, which makes his 20% evasion total fail as it does not stack (unless there is a bug).
Low chance crit and 20% evasion won't help in a large team fight, where few aoe spells will make scout run or die.
If that skill will be replaced with disable, slow or an aoe silence/slow trap with some damage, it migth make hiw a better hero.
His ultimate will never go off against a good low health player on watchtower, he will simply stay out of scouts line of sight.
I dont see the problem.
he is fun to play (often picked) and he sux.... Now if a hero would suck and not fun to play, then there would be a problem.
E8400, 4850, 4gig, windows xp.
decent rig + great engine = awesome performance!
Why would you buy the item that doesn't stack, rather than extra crit, or hack and slash or, well; anything else?
Low chance of crit and 20% evasion help you to pick off an enemy hero before the team fight, so suddenly it's 4v5, or with the way he's balanced right now, 2v5. Some skills in DotA are balanced the way they are because there is a slight delay (from 0.1 with LC to 2.0 with pubs) with the almost nil delay with non peer-peer server I feel that they could use some tweaking.
And if you're letting them get out of LoS when you start your ult, you're doing it wrong.
I've been playing 10+ hours a day and he gets picked in 80% of the games and they go for a codex in at least half of those games.
I am not saying he is "overbalanced omg get rid of him." In any game with two teams of seasoned players he is completely useless and is not a problem whatsoever. He is on the level of Blood Hunter in the sense that he is the best pub-game hero pick and one of the worst competitive game picks possible. At least Blood Hunter has a unique silence and an initiator ultimate making him always useful. I am saying that Scout is a hero that contributes nothing in terms of interesting and complex strategy to the game while also is a very enticing lamer pick for people to try to stat whore or play by themselves. His role doesn't really fit the nature of the game and he really does bring down the quality of a game whenever he is in one no matter which side he is playing on (for or against you).
Compare this to having someone in dota pick Sniper. However lets give sniper a lothars at level 1 instead of having to farm 10-40 minutes for one. Lets also make that ability last forever and give you max movement speed after having marchers.. The lameness of the sniper pick just got increased tenfold while its contribution to the game is null.
Problem is people pick him while they are on your team.
GET DUST?
Let him stay like he is!
I played some matches against him (ok almost every match there is one scout) and I started to like him.
People hate all stealth heroes and people constantly pick stealth heroes. Noobs do both things more often
For me he is more similar to Nerubian Assasin than to Gondar.
And that's actually what I like. It would be fun to see the people cry if the King of Ganking: Nerubian Assassin is implemented.
Concerning his balance: His wards need some fine tunning imho!
A good and cheap counter vs stealth heroes are wards. Problem is: He has goldfree wards to kill your gold costing wards.
So he is kind of a counter pick to his counter pick.
The abilllity to see stealthed things makes him quite unfair in the hands of a skilled player. I would rather like to see them get more normal sight.
Nerubian weavers "wards" are moveable AND perma invisible. So I would't see a problem to give them more sight.
This change would improve his team play abillity, while balancing him a little.
And it would increase the inner-synergie of his skills.
Ward+Ultimate= kill
Currently it's just a matter of luck to have the target in your own wards sight.
Last edited by Korgan; 07-05-2009 at 08:34 PM.
Zephyr should be deleted.
The ingame zoom should never be changed.
And last hit assist should be banned.
Why? No one should get what I don't like.
your doing it wrong.
Scout's job is to SCOUT. He runs around to find a jungling hero by themselves or to check for other heroes before ganking. While vanished he then launches his ult taking away ~50% of the opponents health and slowing while scout's teammate runs in to stun/kill. Or, vanish (wait 15 seconds), attack for 300dmg, immediately vanish and attack for 300 damage, nail ult. gg.
Wards useless??? Not at all. Set them up so you can nail your ult. Or if your against perma-invisible place one right in the middle, they last almost all game against some opponents.
That said, scout is imba for sure. Vanish needs to have a longer cooldown, no problem with the speed boost though. The scouts third ability needs to be completly reworked or changed. Right now its completly useless imho. A higher evasion rate and maybe a passive attack speed boost would be more helpful. Or better yet, something completely new.
I haven't had much issues with the scout. He is a mid game ganker (much like tidebringer) and a late game harasser. If you get the right items on him he can be brutal as well late game. To be honest, the best counter is to have wards a tank with an eye, or some dust to reveal him.
He isn't useless as he can strike fear and paranoia when you are somewhat low on health (which can cause people to abandon lanes far earlier then they would have). He is good at finishing people, while some of you call it kill stealing there are countless situations where the enemy just barely gets away with 1-10% life left. He is a good anti stealth hero as his wards reveal stealth last I checked. Also, much like any physical hero, items can make him a real monster if you know what to get.
As for counters, he doesn't have a lot of life, so get something to reveal him, stun him, and nuke him down. Silence will stop him from going into stealth BTW. Basically treat him kind of like the Nighthound.
While you're at it, remake Zephyr please.
I hate the whole 'killstealer' QQing that everyone does...
It's a team game... I have no problem being the guy with 15 assists and 2 kills as long as my team is winning and everyone else is pulling their weight... IE: also doing damage, not sitting in spawn as thunderbringer and using ult whenever someone gets low on health.
If a enemy hero is running away and you can't catch him, how is the scout hitting him with his ult STEALING your kill.... the other guy was just going to go heal, think about it.
You're just frustrated because your kill escaped.
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