Riftshards vs. Savage Mace - Mathcraft

[edxs]

Care to explain the derivation of the equation?

(Particularly the fractions)

It's just the curve where DPS with riftshards minus DPS with savage mace is zero, given the input variables damage and attack speed.

The fractions come from dividing out the 0.28 from riftshards, though I suppose the fractions could be simplified to integer coefficients. I didn't bother. It's nicer to know where the asymptote is.

[[star]Johnson]

In the best case +15 attack speed is +15% dps - that's not negligible.

All the things you ignore are what makes a savage mace good - the point at which riftshards takes over is much higher than 100 base damage.

(assuming average 25% armor reduction, which is much more likely than 0%, at the point you get a savage mace/riftshards; 1 attack/second)

(188*0.75 + 100*0.35)*1.15 = 202.4 DPS
[(100 + 75) + (100 + 75) * 0.24]*0.75 = 164.75 DPS

=> Without any other attack speed increasing items, at 25% average armor reduction, ignoring the true strike savage mace is better than riftshards 5, in terms of dps, until you have a base damage of >500.

I think thats a very different result than 100

1. In general, +15 AS is not equal to +15% DPS

2a. ~175 AS is 1 attack per second with a 1.7 sec attack CD, and +15 AS brings you to 10/9 attacks per second
[ (188*0.65 + 288*0.35) ]*1.111 = 247.78 DPS
[ (175*0.80 + (175+175*2.4)*0.20) ]*1 = 259 DPS

2b. Your math was wrong, riftshards is better for the given conditions (e.g. 1 attack per second and 100 dmg without the item in question)

3. Your attack speed and base damage matter for the calculation of DPS

4. For average damage per attack:
[ (x+88)*0.65 + (x+188)*0.35 ] = x + 123
[ (x+75)*0.80 + ((x+75)+2.4*(x+75))*0.20 ] = 1.28x + 111

x = 43 damage without the item in question before riftshards is better for the given condition

Conclusion -
Riftshards at max level is essentially always better than savage mace when calculating average damage per attack.

[yyr_]

Wow I just noticed, all of you listed wrong numbers for Riftshards.

The heroes page has the numbers wrong and we are not very good at things.

Thanks for clearing up the formula btw but i now need to change my post on engi's turret qqq.

[yyr_]

[ (x+75)*0.80 + ((x+75)+2.4*(x+75))*0.20 ] = 1.48x + 111

x = 25 damage without the item in question before riftshards is better for the given condition

Conclusion -
Riftshards at max level is essentially always better than savage mace when calculating average damage per attack.

You made the same mistake i did. That number i bolded should be 1.4. So your conclusion is incorrect. Check Elementalusers post if you want to see why.

[[S2]ElementUser]

Yeah that or just replace ((x+75)+2.4*(x+75))*0.20 with 2.4*(x+75)*0.20.

It's also more simplified and easier to see.

[[star]Johnson]

You made the same mistake i did. That number i bolded should be 1.4. So your conclusion is incorrect. Check Elementalusers post if you want to see why.

Shockingly, I read the whole thread before posting and verified my numbers in game before doing the math...
I don't think I have any mods installed.

[ (x+75)*0.80 + ((x+75)+2.4*(x+75))*0.20 ] = 1.28x + 111

In the " ((x+75)+2.4*(x+75))*0.20 " term:
(x+75) is your damage with riftshards on a non-critting hit
2.4*(x+2.4) is the additional damage from the crit
0.20 is the average chance of occurance

So, the issue may be that I am misunderstanding what a critical strike means in this game.
Is the damage from a crit -
a. regular attack damage + (crit multiplier)(reg attack dmg)
b. (crit multiplier)(reg attack damage)

?

[yyr_]

Element can you move this thread on Engineers Turret weapons into mechanics with the other weapon threads please Link <3

[yyr_]

Shockingly, I read the whole thread before posting and verified my numbers in game before doing the math...
I don't think I have any mods installed.

You multiplied by had a 0.2*(damage+(damagex2.4))

What you calculated there is actually 3.4x crit as you can move the damage on the left hand side into the "damagex2.4" as they are technically like terms. Making it 3.4damag*20% chance. The 2.4 already compensates for your original damage. Make sense? im not very clear when trying to type in the morning.

[[star]Johnson]

4. For average damage per attack:
[ (x+88)*0.65 + (x+188)*0.35 ] = x + 123
[ (x+75)*0.80 + ((x+75)+2.4*(x+75))*0.20 ] = 1.28x + 111

x = 43 damage without the item in question before riftshards is better for the given condition

Conclusion -
Riftshards at max level is essentially always better than savage mace when calculating average damage per attack.

If b. is correct above, then..

[ (x+75)*0.80 + ((x+75)+1.4*(x+75))*0.20 ] = 1.28x + 96
or
[ (x+75)*0.80 + 2.4*(x+75)*0.20 ] = 1.28x + 96

x = 96.43 damage without the item in question before riftshards is better for the given condition

Agrees with

Ignoring Savage Mace's secondary effects, it is always superior when attack damage is less than 96.429.

[[star]Johnson]

You multiplied by had a 0.2*(damage+(damagex2.4))

What you calculated there is actually 3.4x crit as you can move the damage on the left hand side into the "damagex2.4" as they are technically like terms. Making it 3.4damag*20% chance. The 2.4 already compensates for your original damage. Make sense? im not very clear when trying to type in the morning.

I edited my post because this occurred to me. So crits in HoN are option b then?

In the " ((x+75)+2.4*(x+75))*0.20 " term:
(x+75) is your damage with riftshards on a non-critting hit
2.4*(x+2.4) is the additional damage from the crit
0.20 is the average chance of occurance

So, the issue may be that I am misunderstanding what a critical strike means in this game.
Is the damage from a crit -
a. regular attack damage + (crit multiplier)(reg attack dmg)
b. (crit multiplier)(reg attack damage)

[roarp]

Go on with the maths, but now try to think 2 items in a more practical sense. What makes people buy savage Mace > riftshaft is the mini-stun and the truestrike it provides, the 88 damage (and 100 true damage proc) is just a nice bonus for all the money you have spent. Buy mace when people start getting evasion items (wingbow, snake bracelet) or with evasion skills (ie. zephyr). Straightforward.

I have no idea what you guys arguing about. If you want pure damage whn enemy has no evasion, no channels, get rift, you obviously will have >100 base damage by the time you make rift 4 (i hope you are not getting it for your first item lol) and rift4 surely hits harder than mace in terms of dps by that time. If they have wingbow, well....good luck with rift4 for the insane high evasion rate from that item.

[[S2]ElementUser]

Element can you move this thread on Engineers Turret weapons into mechanics with the other weapon threads please Link <3

I can't, it's in Strategy. You'll have to report that thread to be moved to Mechanics if you want.

If b. is correct above, then..

[ (x+75)*0.80 + ((x+75)+1.4*(x+75))*0.20 ] = 1.48x + 96
or
[ (x+75)*0.80 + 2.4*(x+75)*0.20 ] = 1.48x + 96

Yes that looks better

[edxs]

The coefficient of pre-riftshards damage (written 'x' most everywhere here) is 1.28, not 1.48. The 96 constant damage is correct.

[[star]Johnson]

The coefficient of pre-riftshards damage (written 'x' most everywhere here) is 1.28, not 1.48. The 96 constant damage is correct.

DAMN
I was wondering how you and I got different numbers. I need to stop trying to do math after work....
Thanks for the catch.

[yyr_]

The coefficient of pre-riftshards damage (written 'x' most everywhere here) is 1.28, not 1.48. The 96 constant damage is correct.

I have been sitting there looking at it trying to work out what went wrong, i was worried i was going crazy, thanks for confirming

PS: I have become bad at things all of sudden and cant find the mistake.

[[star]Johnson]

Rofl.
edxs, yrr, and I (and ElementUser) are such nerds

[yyr_]

Rofl.
edxs, yrr, and I (and ElementalUser) are such nerds

Fixed that we are, that we are.

[Urizen]

Target armour is also a factor as depending on the disparity between the bonus damage on crits and the 100 true damage from savage mace, factoring in attack speed and truestrike things can change

[edxs]

Savage Mace doesn't deal any true damage.

[yyr_]

Target armour is also a factor as depending on the disparity between the bonus damage on crits and the 100 true damage from savage mace, factoring in attack speed and truestrike things can change

Not true damage. We ignore true strike because if they have evasion you dont need to math it, just by savage.. Multiply savagemaces damage by about 1.07ish and your done.