Riftshards vs. Savage Mace - Mathcraft

[[ZZD]Habile]

He ninja'd your OWN post too, at that!

[[S2]ElementUser]

At least it's impossible to set his post behind my own post chronologically

[hzzzln]

wait savage mace procs physical dmg? intended?

[[S2]MacroHard]

Thank you for enlightening me, edxs and ElementUser. I suppose the 0 armor line is the only one that applies. I will modify my post in a few moments.

*EDIT: My previous graph/post has been recalculated and changed completely.

[[0K]TheRoyalty]

What it boils down to is that it depends greatly who you buy the item against. Play against NH? Get Savage Mace. Enemy has Wingbow? Same. Etc etc.

[[S2]ElementUser]

Well now edxs' graph and Macrohard's graphs look similar lol

edxs' y-axis uses Actual Attack Speed while Macrohard's graph uses Actual Attack Speed - 100 (at least from what I see)

Hm still, something is bugging me about why the graphs look slightly different. I think it's where the vertical asymptote lies that's doing this

[edxs]

I believe he's using the curve where DPS/gold is equal.

edit: Yes, it looks like it. Using equal value moves the asymptote to 111.969. yyr's +100 AS point moves over to 209 pre-item damage.

[yyr_]

^ Where did i go wrong in my formula to get 177 at +100?

[edxs]

You didn't go wrong. That's the point at which Riftshards 4 overtakes Savage Mace in DPS (assuming +100 AS).

209 damage is where Riftshards 4 overtakes Savage Mace in DPS per gold (assuming +100 AS).

[yyr_]

You didn't go wrong. That's the point at which Riftshards 4 overtakes Savage Mace in DPS (assuming +100 AS).

209 damage is where Riftshards 4 overtakes Savage Mace in DPS per gold (assuming +100 AS).

Sweet, it was really bugging me that i was wrong, but all good cheers edxs.

[[S2]MacroHard]

Keep in mind that even though 209 is break point (at +100 AS), Savage Mace has two hugely beneficial extras: mini-stun and truestrike.

Even if I'm at 250 damage I'd still go SM for those two things alone.

Think about it... if you're hitting for 300+ (after buying either RS or SM), do you expect your enemy to stay and fight? Somebody with 2000 health can easily teleport away before you can get the kill. SM provides a beatdown AND makes teleporting an impossibility.

Secondly, in almost every game, there will be some form of evasion that comes up. Truestrike is useful every game. Got a ranged carry? Probably. Hate not getting that last hit kill because you miss your final attack uphill? I know it's happened to you.

Third, SM's proc is far more reliable. 35% vs 20% for that bonus really makes a difference. There are many cases that as a carry you can only attack two or three times between disables (since you are definitely going to be focused). It's important that when you attack you provide reliable and consistent output. There have been cases where I've attacked 6 or 7 times and failed to get a critical. While you can equally get several criticals in a row, the former is much more frustrating than the latter is satisfying.

The point of my post is that SM is not only more efficient in terms of DPS/gold (in most situations), but it's also better in general terms; HON isn't about who can do the most damage... it's a conglomeration of complex nuances.

[MechE_]

Keep in mind that even though 209 is break point (at +100 AS), Savage Mace has two hugely beneficial extras: mini-stun and truestrike.

Even if I'm at 250 damage I'd still go SM for those two things alone.

His post is lengthy, but I agree - Savage Mace has much better intangibles. High level players know this, that's why SM is much more popular in those games and rift shards is much more popular in -em games.

[SpyflueN]

His post is fail. "do you expect your enemy to stay and fight?".. rofl.. heard about stun, slow, bubbles? i guess not.. hon is not 1n1, its 5v5.

[CallofDuty5]

regardless, not every enemy is constantly disabled, and sometimes savage mace might be the only stun currently available

[svedlund]

ok, now to the most important question. if the 100+ dmg from SM is physical, is it included with the dmg output if you crit with crit-passive or crit-item? like
300dmg+100dmg * crit?

or

300dmg * crit + 100dmg?

?

and 2 more questions when Im writing my first post here:

1. Iron buckler, it says it reduces -10 from ranged heroes. But when Im arachna and hit scout with iron buckler HoN write "-20" everytime (got activated show in settings).

2. Barbed armor, does it give attacker (with 100dmg):

a, 80% of attackdmg, like 80%x100=80dmg back?
b, 80% of the dmg taken, like 80%x(100-armor-blacklegion reduction) = almost nothing
c, 80% of attackdmg - attackers armor, llike 80%x100 x )100% - attackers armor-reduction)?

[[S2]ElementUser]

It's the first situation.

And:

1) If the wielder is melee he blocks 20; if the wielder of the shield is ranged he blocks 10.

2) 80% of the damage taken (after reductions) by the wielder is redirected to the correct source.

[[ZZD]Habile]

It's the first situation.

And:

1) If the wielder is melee he blocks 20; if the wielder of the shield is ranged he blocks 10.

2) 80% of the damage taken (after reductions) by the wielder is redirected to the correct source.

Are you sure about Savage Mace and critical hits?

300dmg+100dmg * crit?

(Attack Damage + 100Bonus) * Critical Multiplier

300dmg * crit + 100dmg?

(Attack Damage * Critical Multiplier) + 100Bonus

Unless this changed since closed beta, Savage Mace procs are a completely separate source of damage from your actual attacks.

I'll retest in game, and update this post if I'm mistaken.
edit: It's the second. A flat 100 damage is added on top of the critical.

[[S2]ElementUser]

Oh I thought he meant the +damage he got from Savage Mace and not the +100 proc

~.~

Of course the +100 proc isn't affected by any multipliers that affects your attack (this is why illusions proc the full damage). I thought he meant Savage Mace's +88 damage since 88 is fairly close to 100.

The +88 does get amplified and (stressing again) that was what I was referring to - NOT the separate proc

[[ZZD]Habile]

Yeah, I had a feeling it was just a misunderstanding. I always like to retest things anyway, because changes happen.

[Marlesdk]

Puppet whipsplash/ Malikens ulti(splash).. How does that work with savage mace? does it splash the +100 true damage or is it only for one single target?
And ofcourse Runed axe?
Maliken should indeed carry riftshard 4 if its only one target who recieves more dmg when True strike procs!?