Therefore, Maliken with a Savage Mace and Ultimate enabled only does 100+ proc on the target he is focusing and not the others.100+ proc DOES NOT apply to splash damage.
Therefore, the extra damage that Maliken does with the Riftshards WILL apply to all the targets that are within range of his AoE.Critical damage DOES apply to splash damage.
However, after testing this in-game I found it pretty obvious if you read the descriptions of it.
Originally Posted by Savage MaceOriginally Posted by Riftshards
The reason why Savage Mace will always continue to be more viable is because for a mere 1800 gold you can purchase a whopping 25% physical EVASION. Which is in practice far more potent than a flat -25% physical reduction.
Second of all it is entirely situational on what you should build(regarding SM or RS) because Riftshards has a much easier build up, and does not need to be upgraded to level 4. You can merely leave your Riftshards at level 1 and build stat items + bkb.
Double posting this here, I though I was writing here in the first place.
Not factoring the 15% attack speed is forgetting a huge component...
DPS = Damage X number of attacks per second.
DPS rift = (Base Damage + 75) X 1.28 X (attack speed)
DPS Savage = (Base damage + 88 + 35) X (Attack speed + (Base attack speed *.15))
Most interesting carries are at 0.72 (Silouhette) or 0.71 (Flint) base attack speed. Let's take 0.715 as the base attack speed for the math. If we first assume that the attack speed does NOT go up, let's find the break even point.
Between 349 and 350 base damage actually is the number.
Rift DPS = (349 + 75) * 1.28 * .715 = 388.0448
SM DPS = (349+88+35) * (.715 + .107) = 388.102 (Real number since I rounded the .107)
At 350, Rift becomes better.
Now, you will tell me, well, this is bullshit, I won't have 0.715 attack speed at the end of the game. True, so I figured I'd adjust the attack speed. I created 3 extra scenarios. End game attack speed of 1.0, 1.5 attacks per second.
At 1.0 attacks per second, a base damage of between 232 and 233 is there Rift takes over. Formula:
DPS Rift: (232 + 75) * 1.28 * 1 = 392.96
DPS SM: (232 + 88 + 35) X (1+0.107) = 393.07
At 1.5 attacks per second, the scenario of break even is at: 171 and 172 base damage prior to the item.
DPS Rift: (172 + 75) * 1.28 * 1.5 = 474.24
DPS SM: (172 + 88 + 35) * (1.5+0.107) = 474.13
SO, considering a level 17 flint with frostwolf, steamboots, geometer, what should he get? Well, let's check:
Base damage 39 + 16 levels gained * 2.9 agi gain/level + 25 damage from FWS + 26 from Geo = 136 damage. With those items, flint should be around that 1.5 attacks per seconds. As you can tell, for his DPS, he should still go with SM REGARDLESS of true strike.
This is why Rift is often a 2nd pick to Savage mace, factor in the fact that you can interrupt with Savage and have true strike, you have no reason going for rift until the ultra late game.
**EDIT** I tested and with 136 damage, you need 2.5 Attacks per second BEFORE the item to have a breaking point between SM and Rift.
Last edited by Tomate; 05-31-2011 at 01:57 PM.
This all seems very confusing to me.
Everything else is symmetrical, exept the effect of attack damage itself, which scales for riftshards and stays constant for savage mace. And proc effects from other items or abilities.
You don't need to care about attackspeeds, base attack times, armors or anything else, because they work just the same for both items, only relevant thing is the attack damage.
Thinking pure damage, riftshards is better than savage mace when your autoattacks hit for 350 or more. Other items with proc effects can alter this, but usually do so in the favor of savage mace (since the proc cannot crit, but generally does benefit from attackspeed). Attackspeed, amor reduction, base attack time, all irrelevant.
EDIT: Geo indeed is better for rift than savage
Last edited by yourstruly; 05-31-2011 at 02:44 PM.
The night has a thousand eyes,
And the day but one;
Yet the light of the bright world dies
With the dying sun.
The mind has a thousand eyes,
And the heart but one:
Yet the light of a whole life dies
When love is done.
it's obvious geo is a better fit for rift than savage. Images get crit, but images with mace get nothing.
Last edited by Lethe; 05-31-2011 at 03:27 PM.
Ramsay Sound Pack
I dig your directionless fury.
Talking about geo + riftshards tho isn't butterfly/eaglehorn or whatever its hon name + geo = better & more reliable dps for illusions by a longshot. As stats actually raise the damage and atk speed of the illusions. If you grab the illusion rune with a stat rather then damage set up you get tankier higher dps illusions. Enough to cause some mayhem. Altho this is a sort of build i'd really only go with MQ or slither. Also isn't a charged hammer a lot more reliable then riftshards once you've actually got some damage(70 atk speed, 28 dmg 20% 200 magic dmg proc). I've found that stacking several charged hammers practise mode can get you to the 3.3333 / 4 atks a second region which results in cheesey damage for sil and flint. But in a real game a blacksmith or empath could give you the extra atk speed to reach that 4/1 sec cap.
Ignoring frames the comparison for when Riftshards is better is:
(Damage+123)*(Attackspeed+.15) < (Damage+75)*Attackspeed*1.28
For damage =
150: 2.73 AS , unlikely unless you are using EP
175: 2.03 AS
200: 1.67 AS , almost always
225: 1.45 AS
250: 1.3 AS , you'll have this much AS by level 6 on an agility hero with no items
For AS =
1.5: 218 Damage, Only really occur if you have a 20 minute Doombringer with no Steam Boots.
1.75: 193 Damage
2: 177 Damage (this is mentioned earlier in the thread)
2.25: 165 Damage
2.5: 156 Damage
3: 144 Damage
Savage Mace works better than Rift Shards as a first item, but by the time you reach into the upper 100s for damage, Rift Shards will give better damage output.
Base Attack Time is irrelevant unless you are taking frames into account.
Last edited by AtheistGod; 05-31-2011 at 06:10 PM.
If you want the whole formula disregarding any side effects such as: Illusions propagating 1 but not the other 1, salvo effect on total damage and blablabla...
here's the formula:
(Damage + 123) * (Attack speed + base attack speed * .15) < (Damage + 75) * 1.28 * (Attack speed).
Redo your work, your numbers are just way off the chart and make absolutely no sens.
DPS = Damage * Attackspeed / BAT * crit modifers * damage reductions.
Since BAT is constant regardless of items and enemy damage reductions aren't changed by either Savage Mace or Riftshards we can factor both of those out.
With frames you just change the (Attackspeed/BAT) to 1/(.05*ceiling(20*BAT/Attackspeed)). This complication prevents you from factoring the BAT out.
This is the source of your problems. You are acting like level 1 damage matters. We aren't asking how much damage you need at level 1 with no attackspeed for Rift Shards to beat Savage Mace. I don't care that a level 1 with Doombringer and Savage Mace out damages a level 1 with Doombringer and Riftshards.Those numbers aren't what you think they are.
You also incorrectly applied the SM attack speed but that is a more minor issue.
Did you come from LoL? The way you look at it and the error you made seem like they could be due to how LoL displays AS and LoL not having +AS at level 1.
Last edited by AtheistGod; 05-31-2011 at 06:05 PM.
.png of effective buying is below
The shaded area is when it is effective to buy savage, the y axis being attack speed, and the x axis being damage.
Please note that these are the values of attack speed and damage BEFORE buying the item.
Ignore the terribly formed equations in the top of the frame; MSMath simplification blows more dick than a 50cent hooker.
the savagemace got a ministun as well. when u hit an enemy in the frame of his attack animation that animation will be canceled and results in a reset of that animation. that would mean incomming dps reduction. something that riftshard doesnt have.