What to do when laning as Melee vs Ranged?

[Sarohildi]

New player here, open Beta only, and I figured this was generic/nub enough that it doesn't really belong with important strategy questions.

First off, I'm a big fan of melee characters, been playing Predator for most of my games. But it seems like every time I lane against a ranged character, I get totally hosed. I have low rating, so I get matched up with people that are slow on the uptake when I suggest a lane switch, and I never have much luck trying to coordinate a kill so we have some uninterrupted creep time.

I go forward trying to LH or deny a creep, and they get off 2-3 ranged auto-attacks on me, +abilities when they have CD/mana. If I leap forward to put some pressure on their hero, the 2nd laner ruins my day so I either back out at super low health for a pot/rune, or I die in the trying. My partner is usually useless, if he does anything (even if forewarned) they always wait until I go in and are several seconds late on the engage, so I spend most of the fight 2v1.

Halp!

[disregards]

an iron shield helps a lot vs. early game harrasment, giving you the chance to last hit creeps for a longer time without going back to heal.

also you can figure out ways to harras the range enemy.
e.g. Pred does a fairly good amount of dmg if you Leap the enemy once and do 2-3 attacks on him, forcing him to heal himself. then you can kill a few creeps without danger.

a very important note is that you need to play safe, don't risk to take too much dmg and instead stay back a bit and only get exp.

once you develop you will find out that there are some "advanced" tactics, allowing you to achieve gold in the jungle, without danger.
look up some guides about jungling and creep pulling. Pred is a decent jungler since he got a build in lifeleech.

hope this info helps

[MohJ]

If you're melee, let someone ranged lane with you, because a double melee lane is weak most of the time. Otherwise, just stay back and leech xp and take the occasional safe last-hit until you can jungle.

[[REBL]Blazinghand]

Trick 1) Always have a ranged hero in each lane.
Trick 2) Predator is a viable jungler when you level his passive.

[[KCD]Ritualst]

Some tips from me:

1st - If you expect hard lane as mele get Axe + Shield. 1st item will enable you to last hit creeps in the HP range where ranged enamy heroes can't deny you. The 2nd item provides loads of surv.
2nd - When playing Pred make sure you communicate with your partner. Be polite and ask him to nuke your enemies a few times. After they are around 50% of HP ask your partner to attack them while you leap with hide shortly after to prevent stuns / being nuked. Kill one of them and enjoy nice boost to your gold.
3rd - Always go easy lane if possible (bottom lane Legion / top lane Hell). This lets you fight next to your tower and thus get some free CS while enemy team can't harras you.
4th - If point 3 is applied then learn how to pull neutrals from jungle with your creeps to back the battle to your tower (if you have the lane pushed).
5th - Most of the ranged heroes are very squishy. If your lane partner is extremaly useless try to convince him not to feed at least. With smart lane management you can get enough gold for boots + 2 bracers really fast and that's pretty much all you need to kill any ranged Hero 1vs1.
6th - Play it smart. Always check if you are in range of their stuns / nukes. If they catch you, you can die easily and thus loosing gold / falling behind in levels / pumping up enemy team. Remeber to watch out and use your hide wisely as in 2vs1 situation you die really fast to some combos.

I hope it helps.

[Sarohildi]

Appreciate the advice, but this leads to a couple of new questions!

Assuming logger's axe + shield, can I safely jungle at level 1 (assuming 1 talent in passive), or should I leech XP in a lane until 2-3 to jungle. And, if anybody knows, what's a good level of progression for jungling w/ Predator (only yellow creeps until xx level, then light orange, dark, etc.) Not as important, since I'm sure to try it out, but it might be nice to hear from somebody who's had some experience.

Thanks again.

[Droggeltasse]

Appreciate the advice, but this leads to a couple of new questions!

Assuming logger's axe + shield, can I safely jungle at level 1 (assuming 1 talent in passive), or should I leech XP in a lane until 2-3 to jungle. And, if anybody knows, what's a good level of progression for jungling w/ Predator (only yellow creeps until xx level, then light orange, dark, etc.) Not as important, since I'm sure to try it out, but it might be nice to hear from somebody who's had some experience.

Thanks again.

Never, never never never stay in lane and jungle at lvl 3 !!!!
You will leave your lvl 3 ally vs 2 lvl 3 enemy hereos and he will loose unless he is way better then they are. Jungle at lvl 1 or dont jungle at all ! (of course after the laning phase you can do it, or if you are in a position were you can leave your lanemate alone for a few secs.)

But there are some tricks to jungle from lvl 1.
Creep pulling and creep stacking.

Creeps spawn every minute when the camp is empty. You can just atack them at X.53-57 and lure the creeps away from the camp. When you return there is 1 more extra set of neutral creeps.

The other thing is creep pulling. You atack the creep camp near the lane and lure the creeps into your own team creeps on there way to the tower. The creeps will follow into the creep camp and tank it for you.

If you combine this you can get gold very fast and deny some of your own creeps to make it easier for the guy who has to solo vs 2 players.

[Neru]

My Predator build (starts off slow and speeds up very quickly after Bones. Could have got Bones faster but screwed up quite a bit often). This is a copy of a chart I made for a jungling thread. It shows how fast he can jungle and I'll explain what to do here:

At 00:53 pull the weak camp so you stack it. Kill this camp, you should get level 2 easily. At level one you should be able to kill Skeleton camps and weak camps. Do this till level 3. Level 3 you'll be able to take Wildhunters (your best friend) and sometimes Wolves. Level 5 you'll be able to take all the camps but I wouldn't advise it since Catmen/Minotaurs do some serious damage, its best to wait till level 7. Don't over stack. Predator's not like Legionaire when jungling, he gets weaker with more things attacking him, and he gets weaker as the fight goes on (Carnivorous works on current HP).

You should be able to take Ancients at level 7/8, but only do that if you've left the jungle and are passing them after a gank or something, leaving the jungle to hit the ancients takes too much time.

Predator
00 mins - Lv01 - :LoggersHatchet: :IronBuckler: :RunesOfTheBlight: - ~0
05 mins - Lv04 @ 50% - :GlovesOfTheSwift: :GlovesOfTheSwift: - ~0
09 mins - Lv06 @ 55% - :AlchemistBones: - ~0
10 mins - Lv07 @ 00% - :AlchemistBones:+:Marchers: - ~0
13 mins - Lv08 @ 25% - :AlchemistBones:+:Steamboots: - ~0
18 mins - Lv11 @ 00% - :AlchemistBones:+:Steamboots:+:Insanitarius: - ~0
22 mins - Lv13 @ 75% - :AlchemistBones:+:Steamboots:+:Insanitarius:+ :Warpcleft: - ~200
27 mins - Lv16 @ 00% - :AlchemistBones:+:Steamboots:+:Insanitarius:+ DaemonicBreastplate - ~0
30 mins - Lv17 @ 75% - :AlchemistBones:+:Steamboots:+:Insanitarius:+ DaemonicBreastplate - ~1800g

What influenced the result :
- Barely stacked
- Missed the :30/1:00 weak stack
- Never lane-pulled early
- Went back to fountain once
- Never died
- Wasn't stacking or killing Ancients at all.

Outcome
- Steam Boots
- Alchemist Bones
- Insanitarius
- Daemonic Breastplate
- Logger's Hatchet
- Iron Buckler
- 1800 gold.

541.8XP/min 379G/min.

Build:
Carnivorous 1/3/5/7
Stonehide 2/10/11/12
Venomous Leap 4/6/8/9
Ultimate 13/14/16

Using Stonehide early allows you to take slightly harder camps easier.
Using Leap directly after attacking gives you effectively a "quick attack" as well as the poison.
Never used ultimate.

I kept the Logger's Hatchet and Iron Buckler throughough, but was limited in the post by the icon limit. Also for some reason Daemonic icon becomes a smiley, so yeah thats annoying.

[Artemiye]

New player here, open Beta only, and I figured this was generic/nub enough that it doesn't really belong with important strategy questions.

First off, I'm a big fan of melee characters, been playing Predator for most of my games. But it seems like every time I lane against a ranged character, I get totally hosed. I have low rating, so I get matched up with people that are slow on the uptake when I suggest a lane switch, and I never have much luck trying to coordinate a kill so we have some uninterrupted creep time.

I go forward trying to LH or deny a creep, and they get off 2-3 ranged auto-attacks on me, +abilities when they have CD/mana. If I leap forward to put some pressure on their hero, the 2nd laner ruins my day so I either back out at super low health for a pot/rune, or I die in the trying. My partner is usually useless, if he does anything (even if forewarned) they always wait until I go in and are several seconds late on the engage, so I spend most of the fight 2v1.

Halp!

Okay, so from what I've read it looks like you tend to have a lack of regenerative capabilities, a crappy lane partner, and/or a bad judgment.

SO: my first question is, what is your typical starting build with 603 gold? If I know the enemy team has quite a few ranged and my lane might be rough (for example, 2 ranged heroes verses you and your useless lane partner), you can be sure I'm going Logger's Hatchet + 6 Runes + 1 Health Potion, and even then that might not be enough regeneration if all they do is harass you. BUT, it's enough to get me started, and enough to establish an advantage against the two enemy heroes in my lane. OR, what some people will do is get Logger's Hatchet + Shield + Health Potion, then use the courier to bring more regeneration as needed.

What you need to rush initially is that shield (60% chance to block 20 damage), by the time you have that you should still have AT LEAST 3 runes and 1 health potion (because if you had to use more than 3 runes to get 3 creep kills, then that's a skill level issue). You really shouldn't have a problem once you get that shield.

I mean, assuming you're Predator, you already have half decent base damage, add on logger's hatchet and the little bit of extra damage from his passive, there's little excuse to be constantly missing creep kills. The impression I get is you tend to leap in expecting a kill, then you end up with half or lower life left from a failed kill, and that hurts your farming because well, if you run up to last hit a creep you might die.



So, to recap, because I tend to ramble on:


1. Get as MANY early early game last hits/denies as you can. As far as I know, ranged heroes receive much less experience than melee heroes when creeps are denied. So work your ass off in the beginning, and it'll be worth it when you've got two levels on them - just keep in mind it only makes a significant difference if you deny say, 15-30 creeps in the first 10 minutes...if you deny like 2, then you only wasted 8 seconds of your time that would have been better spent last hitting for gold).

2. PAY attention to your creep score and how long the game has been going on. Farming early game is VERY VERY IMPORTANT, because once towers start to go down, the farming stops and the ganking begins. And it's YOUR towers going down and not the enemy's, you and your team is in trouble.

3. DO NOT attack the enemy heroes if it will hurt you in any way. An eye for an eye isn't a good idea if you know you're a superior last hitter when compared to the 2 enemy heroes in your lane. Meaning, if you're going to end up dying trying to gank a support, it isn't worth it when you could just spend that time farming. (HOWEVER: Killing hard carries is always a good idea)

4. If you're going to jungle, DO NOT use Venomous Leap or Stonehide to help get a creepspawn dead quicker. It's like: oh cool, I can kill this spawn 10% faster, but oops, I got ganked because I'm an idiot and stonehide was on cooldown.

5. Other than that, I agree with the above post (but you really should get Platemail and Chainmail before Warp Cleft, I'm pretty sure +15 armour is more beneficial than 55 attack speed - since Insanitarius and Tremor has that covered).

Edit: Also, tip: Stonehide -> Homecoming Stone to prevent most ganks (except for a Rampage ult, Tempest ult, etc).

[Neru]

4. If you're going to jungle, DO NOT use Venomous Leap or Stonehide to help get a creepspawn dead quicker. It's like: oh cool, I can kill this spawn 10% faster, but oops, I got ganked because I'm an idiot and stonehide was on cooldown.

5. Other than that, I agree with the above post (but you really should get Platemail and Chainmail before Warp Cleft, I'm pretty sure +15 armour is more beneficial than 55 attack speed - since Insanitarius and Tremor has that covered).

4. I merely used Stonehide/Venomous to prove how fast Predator can jungle. I would never use Stonehide to jungle in a real game, but Venomous definitely since if they're ganking you its unlikely you'll get a chance to kill them.

5. I got the Warp Cleft before the armour because I couldn't think of what to buy so just saved for a while. When jungling Warp Cleft is much better for it, since you shouldn't be taking any significant damage from creeps, but in a real game you'd be ganking etc so armour is definitely more benificial.

[[REBL]Blazinghand]

4. I merely used Stonehide/Venomous to prove how fast Predator can jungle. I would never use Stonehide to jungle in a real game, but Venomous definitely since if they're ganking you its unlikely you'll get a chance to kill them.

5. I got the Warp Cleft before the armour because I couldn't think of what to buy so just saved for a while. When jungling Warp Cleft is much better for it, since you shouldn't be taking any significant damage from creeps, but in a real game you'd be ganking etc so armour is definitely more benificial.

Good to have your venomous leap around if you need to get away; depending on how the enemy is positioned this is actually a viable escape mech. Like if surrounds you with wards leaping to him can let you escape. Or if it's a 1v1 chase just as he starts to catch up you can leap him then keep on running, since it slows him.

[Neru]

Good to have your venomous leap around if you need to get away; depending on how the enemy is positioned this is actually a viable escape mech. Like if surrounds you with wards leaping to him can let you escape. Or if it's a 1v1 chase just as he starts to catch up you can leap him then keep on running, since it slows him.

Eugh. Yes you could get into specifics to prove me wrong, but its highly unlikely that to escape you'll need to leap to an enemy. If you have sufficient wards up you won't have a problem.

[[REBL]Blazinghand]

Eugh. Yes you could get into specifics to prove me wrong, but its highly unlikely that to escape you'll need to leap to an enemy. If you have sufficient wards up you won't have a problem.

Ok. Let's get general. You're being ganked by any enemy hero. At all. You have a slow. It's better that it not be on cooldown. Yes, wards help, and with sufficient warding and good MIA calls from your team you probably won't get ganked. Still, having the slow around is good. Easiest gank escape still is stone hide + TP of course.

[[REBL]Vodka]

Why would you use a single-target nuke on a hero with a low mana pool to farm?

EDIT: I'd keep enough mana for leap+stone hide at all times, because you'll want that slow from leap in pretty much every situation.

[Torgaddon]

most of the time you will get your ass handed to you as melee vs ranged in the side lanes. good positioning helps, keep just out of their attack range. if you notice them move in your direction, move away. if they stay in reach of your creeps, when they try to harass you they'll draw creep aggro. stay in xp range so you're at least the same level as them. get logger's hatchet and shield asap. pull a neutral camp into your lane, unless they are VERY aggressive. if they notice you gone and their creeps are beating on the tower unopposed, they will know you've pulled and come to kill you. it's best to stay at the tower in this case, as you'll have the chance to last-hit some creeps there without fear of them diving before level 6 or so.

know the ranges of their spells, and be prepared to sprint for the tower if they initiate on you. whatever happens, survive. courier yourself runes of the blight if you need them, one charge of blight is well worth the xp and gold of one creep kill. so you have roughly a 100hp buffer for every creep kill you take. save your mana for when you really need it. don't use your spells to harass, unless they're extremely low-cost and you're at full mana anyway. (eg. madman stalk, armadon quills) get a power supply, and let it build up charges for when they finally try to finish you off. use the power supply at the last possible second so you can escape. you can always opt to use it early, but the later you use it the more they'll have your creeps, your allies, and hopefully your tower beating on them. this can get you kills you didn't expect you could get. once you're around 100hp with 0 mana, that's the time to use it.

above all, don't get outleveled, don't feed them hero kills, don't go back to base unless you absolutely positively need to. HoN is a game of momentum - once it's built up, it's hard to stop. a 1 level advantage (you level 5, them lvl 6) can quickly build to a 3 or 4 level advantage and from then on it's nearly hopeless. whatever happens, you should be able to fight and contribute to your team. you can't do that if you get one-shotted by the lvl 11 witch slayer because you spent half your time running back to base and are just now getting to lvl 7.

here endeth the lesson.

ps: if you're playing pred against an aggressive lane, get stone hide maxed ASAP as it will save your butt better than trying to leach life back with carnivorous.