Pebbles' Combo Sequence: The Mystery Unraveled

[[S2]ElementUser]

(Disclaimer: Only considers the damage from Stalagmites and Chuck and not other external factors (such as additional autoattacks).)

The real reason why Stalagmites -> Chuck is better than Chuck -> Stalagmites.

As you know, Stalagmites' stun/damage instance impacts every 0.25s & it impacts 4 times, meaning that the total timeframe to get all 4 Stalagmite stun/damage instances in is 1 second. However, there is a 0.2s delay before the first Stalagmite instance actually impacts once the projectile Stalagmites actually reaches its destination.

Chuck -> Stalagmites Analysis:

From the script, Pebbles' Chuck projectile has a lifetime of 1 second. Now you may be thinking "Well, how on earth is it actually possible to get Chuck's projectile time to include all 4 Stalagmite instances if Chuck is cast before Stalagmites?".

The answer is in HoN's engine because it runs at 20 frames/second or 0.05 seconds/frame.

Thus, if Stalagmites impacts the enemy in less than 0.05 seconds after Chuck is cast, then Chuck will include all 4 Stalagmite instances. Note that Stalagmites does have a tiny bit of travel time and 0.05 seconds is a very small timeframe, so Stalagmites will literally have to be casted right on top of Pebbles to ensure that it impacts faster than 0.05 seconds.

For curiosity's sake, Stalagmites' travel time must be less than 0.05 seconds & projectile speed is 1200 units/second. As we know, distance = velocity*time, so the minimum distance is 1200*0.05 = 60. Therefore, the center of the Stalagmites spell must be less than 60 units away from the center of Pebbles.

This can potentially be more easily demonstrated in a time line (assuming perfect scenario and that Stalagmites travel less than 60 units from the center of Pebbles):

Chuck at t=0

Stalagmites cast at t=0
Stalagmites impact at t=0.2

Instance #1 impacts at t=0.2
Instance #2 impacts at t=0.45
Instance #3 impacts at t=0.70
Instance #4 impacts at t=0.95

Since Chuck's projectile lifetime is 1 second, there is a 0.05s grace delay in between the Chuck cast and the Stalagmites cast. This grace delay is lessened the further away the Stalagmites has to travel, where 60 units is the max distance it can travel.

Realistcally, you cannot pull this off unless you cast both spells on the same frame, which is only possible by slowing the game speed below 25% (if you are human). If you are using computer-aids, that doesn't count.


Stalagmites -> Chuck Analysis:

The timeline info is the same, the only difference is that the grace period with Stalagmites -> Chuck is much larger: 0.25 seconds (including the HoN frames behavior), to be precise.


TL;DR: Stalagmites -> Chuck. Bottom line, Stalagmites -> Chuck gives you a much larger grace period to execute the combo for maximum damage.

[[S2]ElementUser]

Level 8 Combo Possiblities - Brief Analysis:

Level 8 Pebbles, assuming perfect Stun-Chuck combo executed.



Therefore, the 4/4/0/0 build is much better than the 3/4/0/1 build. See the next post for the elaboration on the creation of the graph.

Oudated stuff (archived):

Also does not take damage reductions into account (damage from autoattacks are assumed to be physical while the rest of the damage is magic).



So, 3-4-1 build will give more overall damage.

In fact, 3-4-1 would *usually* be better because in general, Pebbles deals more physical damage in this build compared to the 4-4-0 build and the general trend is that heroes have lower physical armor than magic armor early game.

*Note that this is not always true depending on if the enemy hero has a boost in early physical armor (ie, Ring of the Teacher aura) and/or a boost in Magic Armor (ie, Mystic Vestments).

The 3rd column is there for the sake of comparison on the damage difference compared to the other 2.

Some info about autoattacking:

You can do Stalagmites -> Hit -> Chuck because you have a 0.45s grace time (0.2s from the impact delay, 0.25s after the first Stalagmite hits because Stalagmite applies a state to the enemy for 0.25s). However, Pebbles' attack point is 0.4s and the 0.45s grace time will usually be quite a bit lower (something like ~0.25s accounting for a lot of things like server delay, distance from the enemy, reflexes, Pebbles' ultimate lowering his attack point indirectly, imperfect conditions, etc.), so I highly recommend you just do Stalagmites -> Chuck -> Immediately Animation Cancel here to land an extra hit on the enemy.

[[S2]MacroHard]

LEVEL 8 PEBBLES OPTIMIZATION

(scroll to bottom conclusion for TL/DR)

HYPOTHESIS:
It is sometimes better to learn 3/4/0/1 than 4/4/0/0 at level 8.

ASSUMPTIONS/GIVENS:
-Pebbles is level 8
-Stalagmites (ie "Stun") does 100/180/260/300 magic damage
-Chuck (ie "Chuck") does 75/150/225/300 magic damage
-Enlarge (ie "Ult") adds 40 bonus attack damage at level 1
-Chuck does 15/30/45/60 bonus magic damage without Ult
-Chuck does 26.25/52.5/78.75/105 bonus magic damage with Ult
-Stun damage is doubled with perfect combo
-Assume Pebs does perfect combo (target is Chucked with full double stun)
-Pebs attacks once during the combo
-Damage Reduction = 0.06A/(1+.06A)
-Magic Armor = Am
-Physical Armor = Ap
-Since damage comparison is a direct comparison, base attack damage doesn't matter as it'll only get subtracted out once the equations are set equal to each other, so let's assume it's 0 without Ult and 40 with.

EQUATIONS:
Damage = Stun Damage + Chuck Damage + One Attack Damage
Damage from 4/4/0/0 Build = (280*2)(1-.06Am/(1+.06Am))+(300+60)(1-.06Am/(1+.06Am))+0
Damage from 3/4/0/1 Build = (220*2)(1-.06Am/(1+.06Am))+(300+105)(1-.06Am/(1+.06Am))+40(1-.06Ap/(1+.06Ap))

GRAPH:
Total Damage vs Physical Armor


INCIDENTALS/OBSERVATIONS:
-According to the graphs, the 4/4/0/0 horizontal damage line is always above the 3/4/0/1 damage curve. An exception occurs at the 15.5 magic armor curve when physical armor is equal to 0, but the 3/4/0/1 curve only has a ~1 damage advantage over the 4/4/0/1 curve at this point anyway.
-Even though increasing magic armor brings the 2 damage curves together for a particular level of magic armor, the 4/4/0/0 always gives more total damage output.
-Maximizing Chuck gives you more sniping damage AND range for those cases where a running hero is out of stun reach.
-Leveling Stun does not increase stun duration.
-Learning Ult early gives you better damage for last hitting and general attacking as well as increased movement speed.

CONCLUSION:
Therefore, in general, a 4/4/0/0 build is better than a 3/4/0/1 build at level 8.

CREDITS:
ElementUser inspired this post by this thread:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...d.php?t=102574
...but he neglected armor factors. =)

Outdated stuff (archived in spoiler):

CALCULATION:
If you set the equations equal to each other you can calculate the "break-even" point. Rather than show you the manual solution to the polynomial, I just put them into an equation solver. You have to trust me that these are correct (they match the graph).
Magic Armor = 0 (Spellshards3) -> 2.38 Armor
Magic Armor = 5.5 (Normal) -> 8.67 Armor
Magic Armor = 10.5 (Mystic) -> 14.38 Armor
Magic Armor = 15.5 (Headdress) -> 20.10 Armor

This section is irrelevant now as the 2 curves don't intersect below 15.5 magic armor and above 0 armor.

[TheDude]

This is what i call a great explanation. Thanks, ill be sure to do that cast sequence... I was mistaken to think that Chuck->Stalagmites does more dmg.

[roarp]

alright that sounds interesting, i always thought chuck first is being better.

Anyways, the code are too much for me so in the end I have read the conclusion and brief explaination and start walking out and shot, NOW I KNOW PEBBLES PWN!

[tikal]

I was mistaken to think that Chuck->Stalagmites does more dmg.

Also, so this is incorrect?

Wow.. I've always thought + people told me that if you chuck then stun you deal double(or more damage) then what you would other way around?

[TurpinoS]

So, If i understand correctly, you could not do the combo perfectly, and it would still deal more damage then just stun + chuck ? BUT NOT as much as a perfect stunchuck ?

(as in 3 ticks of avalanche instead 4)

Could we also have the total damage, AFTER MAGIC reduction, with both stun and chuck maxed, without ult, with level 1, 2 and 3 ult.

THANKS

[[S2]ElementUser]

So, If i understand correctly, you could not do the combo perfectly, and it would still deal more damage then just stun + chuck ? BUT NOT as much as a perfect stunchuck ?

(as in 3 ticks of avalanche instead 4)

If you mean Chuck -> Stun does more damage than Stun->Chuck, no (in a non-perfect scenario), it never will. The best case scenario (which is a perfect one) means you'll do the same amount of damage at best, never more with Chuck->Stun.

Could we also have the total damage, AFTER MAGIC reduction, with both stun and chuck maxed, without ult, with level 1, 2 and 3 ult.

No, these values are easily calculated. You could do it yourself (or ask someone else to) if you really want to know the values.

[TurpinoS]

If you mean Chuck -> Stun does more damage than Stun->Chuck, no (in a non-perfect scenario), it never will. The best case scenario (which is a perfect one) means you'll do the same amount of damage at best, never more with Chuck->Stun.

No, these values are easily calculated. You could do it yourself (or ask someone else to) if you really want to know the values.

My question was not directed towards Chuck -> Stun.

My point is, lets say for the sake of it being easy, that stun deals 300 dmg, and chuck deals 300 dmg.

So if you stun, and then later on chuck the hero, it would deal 600 dmg

Now, if you stun->chuck combo perfectly, it would deal 900 damage.

If you stun-chuck, but NOT perfectly (as in, you stun, wait a bit, then chuck). Will it deal a damage in between 600 and 900 or will it automatically deal 600 dmg.


As for the damage calculation, it was not directly towards you, was just an open question for anyone to do, its not necessary it was just out of curiosity..

Thanks

[DeagleTColt]

though, might be unnecessary but it should be noted this does not mean you are better off to stalagmite from a distance, walk up and then chuck.

just in case someone only read the TL;DR

[[DO]nikoPSK]

Clears things up a bit, good work!

[[S2]ElementUser]

Depends on how many ticks of Stalagmites that get in before the unit is in the chucked State.

In your previous post, you assumed 3 ticks were applied when the unit was in chucked State & not the full 3 ticks. So it would do 300 + 300 + 60 (bonus damage to tossed unit) + 225 (this is 3*75 since only 3 ticks made it in Chucked state) = 885 damage as opposed to 960 damage from the perfect combo.

[TurpinoS]

Depends on how many ticks of Stalagmites that get in before the unit is in the chucked State.

In your previous post, you assumed 3 ticks were applied when the unit was in chucked State & not the full 3 ticks. So it would do 300 + 300 + 60 (bonus damage to tossed unit) + 225 (this is 3*75 since only 3 ticks made it in Chucked state) = 885 damage as opposed to 960 damage from the perfect combo.

Thanks, that was exactly my question, wasnt sure if it was actually possible to do damage which was in between.

[[1BR]Bumblebees]

Has anyone taken the time to see which order allows more unavoidable auto-attacks?

I've been testing this in practice mode (and in game) and it seems that it is entirely possible to do more blink-in damage without actually doing the combo (stun->toss) 'correctly'.

I'd appreciate if someone else could test, but it appears that 'bare' at level 9+ does more damage than a stun->toss combo: attack (stop canceled), toss, attack mid-air, stun, attack, attack. Often you toss (again) a nearby unit at them before they are out of range as well.

[[S2]ElementUser]

It's really up to you whether you want that extra +75 magic damage or not in the end

Chuck-Stun + a hit leaves a Minotaur with ~71 HP

Stun-Chuck without an additional attack leaves a Minotaur with ~97 HP

Against heroes:

With Chuck-Stun, you can add a hit before, a hit mid-air/when they land and a last hit when they try to run away from you.

With Stun-Chuck, you have the same amount of hits if you do it right.

Just note that at level 9 your attack speed is low, though when you gain more attack speed Stun->Chuck will practically always be better than Chuck->Stun.

[[1BR]Bumblebees]

It's really up to you whether you want that extra +75 magic damage or not in the end

Chuck-Stun + a hit leaves a Minotaur with ~71 HP

Stun-Chuck without an additional attack leaves a Minotaur with ~97 HP

Against heroes:

With Chuck-Stun, you can add a hit before, a hit mid-air/when they land and a last hit when they try to run away from you.

With Stun-Chuck, you have the same amount of hits if you do it right. This assuming both get a hit mid-air of toss.

Just note that at level 9 your attack speed is low, though when you gain more attack speed Stun->Chuck will practically always be better than Chuck->Stun.

In my testing I was always able to get 2 hits off after a toss->stun, but only 1 after stun->toss.

Either way, I'm glad this thread exists. I get in arguments almost every game there's a pebbles with some 'tard insisting they should toss->stun "because the description says so."

[[TANK]BadaBing]

In my testing I was always able to get 2 hits off after a toss->stun, but only 1 after stun->toss.

I also heard this, and that the best combo depends on Pebbles attack speed (e.g. if he gets deamonic breastplate, he will be able to get an extra attack off).

[[L4DS]DentistDrill]

TL; DR : ElementUser works far too hard :3

but well done very useful info

[Hippie]

Maybe this will finally put to rest everyone who still SWEARS it's chuck-->stun.

Thanks, Element.

[[PTTN]Tamachan]

Maybe this will finally put to rest everyone who still SWEARS it's chuck-->stun.

Thanks, Element.

It has been stalag- chuck since 0.8 or something(when they fixed his chuck to make it actually work). Anyone who ever thought it otherwise should uninstall.