Sol's Torch

[EustaceBagge]

http://i36.tinypic.com/15wkzrt.jpg+http://i35.tinypic.com/25a0qdk.jpg+http://i38.tinypic.com/ofvxad.jpg


Bound Eye (700 Gold) + Blessed Orb (2100 Gold) + Recipe (500 Gold) = 3300 Total Cost


=
http://www.mmo4ever.com/wow/gfx/icons/inv_torch_lit.png
Sol's Torch
Total Cost: 3300 Gold


Passive Bonuses
+ 12 to all stats
+ 500 Night Time Vision (Non-Stacking)
+ True Sight ability


True Sight Effects


Passively reveals all enemy units/wards within 1100 range of the hero. A charge is lost when the weilder dies.
True Sight is removed/disabled when this item reaches 0 charges.


Contains 1 charge
Re-buying this item's recipe will restore the 1 charge. Each Sol's Torch can only have 1 charge at a time.








Notes:
This item would allow for a new attribute, Vision Increase.
This attribute increases/extends your heroes vision, and in this case it is only during the night (Torches during the day are useless).


Uses the Bound Eye in a recipe (They said it couldn't be done!), and allows your team to have a stronger anti-invis item that has less consequences than Bound Eye. A very handy item for a support hero to stop those pesky invisible units! The vision increase (At Night) is also nice for scouting/having the upperhand pre-battle. The team that can see you, when you can't see them, gains a huge advantage.


Basically, when you die you lose your 1 charge (Invis-Seeing Capabilities), but instead of dropping the item upon death you don't drop it, and you can buy another charge for 500 gold (Re-buying the Recipe) instead of buying an entirely new Bound Eye for 200 more gold.



Please vote on concept!

[Gumbie]

I'll assume that in 700 + 2100 + 200, the 2100 = Blessed Orb?

I like the idea. +1.

[EustaceBagge]

Yes sir, first time making an item, I will probably clean this up and make it easier to understand. Thanks for the feedback.

[BloodKin]

sorry just being a bit picky here, love the idea really but just wondering, if you were to rebuy a bound eye, would the charges reset? t-up from me all the same :)

[War_Mech]

With the above I think you should be able to recharge it some way as well, whether it be buy 1 or 2 bound eyes to recharge it.

[Borkenbaum]

You say that the costs are balancing the item, but since it gives you +atts, the costs aren't balancing but powering it up.
Also an item that normally is lost upon death, giving the enemy team an advantage, if you're having an invisible hero or even wards, is really much of an improvement.
Even if it lasts "only" 3 deaths and your team can't pick it up too.

Can't yet say i like it, but after some changes maybe. Sry that i can't come up with some of these :/

[Killroy]

Bound eye has some really big limitations. It eats up a inventory spot and does nothing else then reveal invis. It also drops on death. Now lets take a look at your item. You get true sight for 3 deaths which equals 2100 gold with 3 eyes normally. But is also give night sight and has +12 to stats. Get 2 heroes on a team with this and you can kiss your a.. goodbye as an invis hero.

This item removes every limitation from eye. So you have to rethink this. I am going to wait for a change.

[EustaceBagge]

I will post updates here:

4/12/2010: UPDATED!
*Set charges to 1 (Limit of 1 charge per Sol's Torch)
*Made it so you can gain a new charge by Re-purchasing the Recipe
*Lowered Night Vision range by 100 (Now at 500)
4/14/2010: UPDATED!
*Increased Recipe cost to 400 gold
5/6/2010: UPDATED!
*Increased Recipe cost to 500 gold

[laserblade]

Balanced. You have my support.

[MADD411]

absolutely GENIUS! Re-buying the recipe and not losing the item is a great idea. Good thinking! might have to up recipe cost to like 500 if people hate it, but you gt a def t-up from me.

[SnietzarN_]

dude... frikkin GENIUS! damn we need this in HoN. It would be so great. t up from me man :D

[EustaceBagge]

Thanks everyone.

The balancing of cost/stats on this item is tough due to how different it's attributes are. I don't want it to be the Invis-KILLER, but I do want it to be the best counter for invis, if you put in the time to build it. I want it to be a support item, it is meant for giving your team a vision boost at night (possibly being OP since it could be the difference between a kill/no kill), which can save you from ganks or help you gank. I also believe it will be nicer for players that don't know where to ward, since they just build this item and become a sort of mobile ward, or atleast contribute to the team more.

Breaking it down:
The total cost of Sol's Torch is 3300 gold right now. The Bound Eye costs 700 of that gold, so you are spending 2500 gold for +12 to all stats, and +500 night vision. The 500 gold recipe adds +2 stats and +500 vision, a great deal.

If you decided to get Bound Eye and died and lost it, it would cost another 700 gold to replace, PLUS the enemy team now might have picked up the Bound Eye. But most of the time enemies will destroy your Bound Eye. You basically save 200 gold on the rest of your Bound Eye purchases.

Sol's Torch is always useful, even without charges the vision bonus alone makes this item worth the cost. BUT, I still don't really know how to balance this perfectly, and won't unless it somehow got into HoN.

[Master_Blah]

i think it looks fairly balanced, and makes bound a more viable item for squishies etc, say int heroes with bad get away skills etc..

i like it T-up

[Killroy]

Definitely a lot better right now. It looks pretty solid although you might want to increase the recipy a bit. 500 sounds more balanced. T-up anyway.

[EustaceBagge]

Definitely a lot better right now. It looks pretty solid although you might want to increase the recipy a bit. 500 sounds more balanced. T-up anyway.

Good idea, I upped the recipe to *500 gold from 300 gold. Anyone have thoughts on the Night Vision attribute? I was thinking of mabye making it so instead of +500 Night Vision you just don't lose vision during night (Same vision during night as day). This might be too strong though, but it definately makes things simpler seeing as how im not sure how much vision is actually lost at night.

[Killroy]

Night vision makes this item cool :)

[EustaceBagge]

Updated, my "friend" keeps messing with my thread because I am stupid and don't logout when I go on my friends laptop. This will end, and their will be blood. UPDATED: I think I won the battle. No more horrible posts saying f*cked up things.

[Fol]

over powered

remove the passive true sight

add power supply into the recipe

and the item will actually make sense

make it work like power supply you get charges from enemy skills but
each charge grants you 5 second of true sight in 1000 aoe around you


i think the whole point of the eye is to fall so the other team can take it or destroy it
basically this item is invisible hero annihilator if you get it when TANK heroes its gg

[EustaceBagge]

over powered

remove the passive true sight

add power supply into the recipe

and the item will actually make sense

make it work like power supply you get charges from enemy skills but
each charge grants you 5 second of true sight in 1000 aoe around you


i think the whole point of the eye is to fall so the other team can take it or destroy it
basically this item is invisible hero annihilator if you get it when TANK heroes its gg

What? I don't see how it's overpowered (Perhaps tell why), and how would adding Power Supply (An item that uses enemy spell casts to add charges to restore mana/hp) make this "make sense"? The numbers may have been off when you last looked, but I updated and fixed them.

The items true sight is turned off when your hero dies, but instead of losing the item you keep it. You still have to basically re-buy a Bound Eye (at a reduced cost). The farming for this item makes it so heroes like Predator for example, someone who can have high hp, has a spell immune ability, lifesteal, and can all around just survive be at a disadvantage while trying to buy this item. Farming up the Blessed Orb will be quite a pain in the ass, and until you pretty much have all the components, you are barely gaining any benefits.

[EustaceBagge]

Bumped! NEED. MORE. FEEDBACK.

[Porpoise_God]

I like the concept. Honestly though, I'd up recipe cost to 500. Losing Bound Eye should still be painful, since this puts the slot to much better use than the Eye that gives nothing but vision. This is putting gold to mitigate the risk of Bound Eye, and it does so in not giving it to the other team and screwing anyone on your team with Shroud.

By the time this is acquired, Scout/NH aren't as reliant on their invis skills anymore, so it's not as much a Scout-killer as it's being made out to be.

[Thingdo]

I really like this idea for making bound eye more useful (in most games I play, eye gets beat out by dust pretty regularly).

[EustaceBagge]

I like the concept. Honestly though, I'd up recipe cost to 500. Losing Bound Eye should still be painful, since this puts the slot to much better use than the Eye that gives nothing but vision. This is putting gold to mitigate the risk of Bound Eye, and it does so in not giving it to the other team and screwing anyone on your team with Shroud.

By the time this is acquired, Scout/NH aren't as reliant on their invis skills anymore, so it's not as much a Scout-killer as it's being made out to be.

Yeah, I am thinking about making 2 seperate items. One that implements the Vision attribute (+Night Vision) and one that just sticks with the whole concept of a stronger/less consequential Bound Eye. This item is very hard to balance due to it's situational strengths. The extra vision granted at night could save your team/get you kills which is a huge advantage, no other item can really give you the kind of advantage this could. And in the right hands, this could ruin an invis hero, but I want to emphasize on the fact that you have to spend a lot of time making the item.

Here are some ideas for splitting the item up into 2 seperate items:

Sol's Torch (Relic) - Costs around 1900(?) gold
+500 Vision during the Night
+250 Vision during the Day

Overseer's Eye (Recipe)
Requires:
Recipe (250)
Bound Eye (700)
Blessed Orb (2100)

+True Sight (Just like Sol's Torch True Sight -> uses charge system)
+12 All Stats

[gmastaub]

up the stats gain +14 to all? and raise the recipe cost to 600. I think 400 to "replace" a dropped "bound eye" is a bit to cheap.

[rocky_]

Hm you played to much Diablo2 :) But this idea is really great. when i clicked the thread i hoped for an item that increases sight of range...

[BearCavalry]

I like your concept of a reusable item that provides vision. I could see it going something more like this:


http://i36.tinypic.com/15wkzrt.jpg+http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_MajorTotem.jpg+http://i35.tinypic.com/25a0qdk.jpg=http://www.mmo4ever.com/wow/gfx/icons/inv_torch_lit.png


Bound Eye (700 Gold) + Major Totem (540 Gold) + Blessed Orb (2100 Gold) = Sol's Torch (3340 Total Cost)

Passive Bonuses
+ 15 to all stats

Activated Ability
Brilliant Torch (75 mana, lasts 12 seconds, 60 second cooldown)

When assembled, contains 1 charge.
With 1 charge, Brilliant Torch is a passive ability instead of an activated ability with a cooldown.

Loses 1 charge on death.

1 charge is gained by purchasing a Bound Eye (700 Gold) to a maximum of 1 charge.


Brilliant Torch Ability
1500 Sight Range (Night or Day)
+ True Sight

True Sight Effects

Passively reveals all invisible units/wards within 1500 range of the hero.





////////////
This way you get to keep the renewable non-drop-on-death bound eye effects, but the item has some utility without having to rebuy every time you die. Great idea all around, I'll tup.

[Nezbit]

this items would destroy invis chars

[EustaceBagge]

this items would destroy invis chars

For 700 gold, you can get a Bound Eye. Bound Eye has identical invis-revealing capabilities as Sol's Torch (1100 range). Sol's Torch costs 3300 gold, and only allows you to save some money on future Bound Eye purchases, you still have to buy another Bound Eye (in this case it's the Sol's Torch Recipe) if you die. Please explain furthermore if you want to make a valid arguement.

[VitaTimH]

Uses the Bound Eye in a recipe (They said it couldn't be done!) <-- this wins

Honestly, I don't care too much for the suggestion... level 3 puzzlebox is only ~1k more, and is easier to build, and gives better stats, and also kills stuff, etc. Not bashing on your suggestion, but maybe make it actually have bang for its buck, like extending the +vision to grant a small bit of vision up hills and through a certain amount of trees.

[EustaceBagge]

Ahh, I don't know if its overpowered or too weak. Perhaps I should make it so you can see uphills? Mabye I could remove the +vision bonus entirely, and just make True Sight allow you to see invis/see up hills/through trees. Basically see everything that is in your heroes vision radius.

[EustaceBagge]

I like your concept of a reusable item that provides vision. I could see it going something more like this:


http://i36.tinypic.com/15wkzrt.jpg+http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_MajorTotem.jpg+http://i35.tinypic.com/25a0qdk.jpg=http://www.mmo4ever.com/wow/gfx/icons/inv_torch_lit.png


Bound Eye (700 Gold) + Major Totem (540 Gold) + Blessed Orb (2100 Gold) = Sol's Torch (3340 Total Cost)

Passive Bonuses
+ 15 to all stats

Activated Ability
Brilliant Torch (75 mana, lasts 12 seconds, 60 second cooldown)

When assembled, contains 1 charge.
With 1 charge, Brilliant Torch is a passive ability instead of an activated ability with a cooldown.

Loses 1 charge on death.

1 charge is gained by purchasing a Bound Eye (700 Gold) to a maximum of 1 charge.


Brilliant Torch Ability
1500 Sight Range (Night or Day)
+ True Sight

True Sight Effects

Passively reveals all invisible units/wards within 1500 range of the hero.




////////////
This way you get to keep the renewable non-drop-on-death bound eye effects, but the item has some utility without having to rebuy every time you die. Great idea all around, I'll tup.

It still does have utility without charges, you have +stats and +vision range.

[Kak300]

plz check out my Dream Hero

http://dream.heroesofnewerth.com/hero/Kak300/Valaine

[Koiuy]

This is brilliant - umm popular suggestion? You got more than what is needed!

[EustaceBagge]

plz check out my Dream Hero

http://dream.heroesofnewerth.com/hero/Kak300/Valaine

Ban him. Now.

[Doomhammar]

Awesome idea. You need to ask mode to get it in popular suggestions :)

[Corn]

I like this item. But would be terrible if my dream hero was around! I really want S2 to involve more things with the night/day system too. It was great in DoTa.

[Kak300]

Ban him. Now.
y ban me wat did i do to u? just because my dream hero is better than yours u have to have a bloody one?:D

[Lo12d_Nav]

Ok seriously, for the cost of this item I could buy 5 bound eyes... the extra vision range and wimpy +12 attributes is NOT worth it. Concept of losing a charge is ok. Overall item is terribad.

[SuperStag]

You, sir, get a T-UP.

[Thats_Bull]

Just wondering, can an ally buy the recipe and hand it to the person holding Sol's Torch and have it restore the charge? This is something it seems to lose compared to just buying bound eyes, which is a huge nerf. Normally the bound eye is handed to the tankiest or strongest hero, and sometimes these heroes can't (or shouldn't have to) spare the extra 500 gold to rebuy their true-sight, meaning another bound eye would have to be bought anyway. Anyway, T-up from me!

[Cleysson]

isnt it hard enough for nighthound, scout and fayde already?

[SomaZ]

isnt it hard enough for nighthound, scout and fayde already?

This is my only concern. Still voted yes though because the idea is very cool.

[PetriFemboy]

EustaceBagge (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=1114667) i like your idea. Please correct me if i missunderstood something and am proposing something that is already implemented. But could You make it that the Sol's Torch would give vision around the hero despite the placement on the map? for example seeing enemy while being among/behind trees, and/or seeing the enemy that is on a higher ground? Instead the vision radius increase or with it?

I could make another topic with a completely new item with this concept but i really enjoy your composition and think that it would be too much if i'd simply do a ripoff from Your Sol's Torch.

Edit:
Or make it a double charge, the first would give the basic reveal and second charge would provide with upheel vision and permanent vision through trees. Every death would remove 1 charge.

Anyhow, what are Your feelings about my proposal?

[TURBORUS]

interesting concept but this is insanely strong... nail in the coffin for nh, scout, fayde etc

good stats and absolutely no drawback on true sight is far too overpowered considering that a bound eye is balanced around the fact it has no stats and is also dropped on death

maybe rather than having passive true sight make it active (say, 10s of true sight on a 30s cooldown or something similar?) because this would completely tear through any wards on the map and destroy any invisible heroes

this would be a guaranteed buy for any team regardless of if the other team is using any invisibility heroes just for the infinite counterwarding with no drawbacks

[Vulcan]

Ide say limit one per team, and increase dayvision by 250 also. the item could also give a 10-15 damage boost just for increased use for its large price