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varon
04-07-2010, 12:18 PM
For me personally, BH solo mid is unstoppable in terms of last hits/denies - maybe this isn't true at an absolutely competitive level, but in 1700+ games I always manage to last hit and deny at least 8 creeps per wave. This leaves a very underfarmed, under levelled mid hero, with BH the opposite.

However, again for me, BH seems to drop off the radar. So with all this gold, instead of going for cookie cutter attacking items, I become a support hero, spamming wards, anti-warding, taking Nome's and Astrolabe and eventually Barrier Idol, for example.

His perm silence can, to an extent, take an enemy hero out of the game (the effect of a silenced, SotM witch slayer, on a high-level team fight, is going to be negligible). His ult is a good initiator, and so what you get from 1 hero is a lot of map control with wards, brilliant support buffs (as he farms so easily), possibly a lot of DPS, and an enemy hero taken out of the game.

It's worked well for me so far - only in higher level games ofc, where teamwork is used. Anyone had similar thoughts? How exactly do you carry BH - I've played it quite a lot and just never been able to perform, he always seems very poor, no matter what items, at around 25min+.

The downside to this is stat boosts from support items don't really do anything for BH at all, so they're wasted, but it still seems worth it.

Targuil
04-07-2010, 12:23 PM
Or you could get mock 15 min mock and roll everyone.

KissBlade
04-07-2010, 12:25 PM
If you can creep as effectively as you claim (8 per wave at least...?) then you should be able to get the items to demolish the opposing team. BH isn't poor post midgame, he has near constant double damage, a heal, speed boost and a hold.

varon
04-07-2010, 03:11 PM
Or you could get mock 15 min mock and roll everyone.


If you can creep as effectively as you claim (8 per wave at least...?) then you should be able to get the items to demolish the opposing team. BH isn't poor post midgame, he has near constant double damage, a heal, speed boost and a hold.

Can't get those high costing items, enemy team just ganks.

NwGRich
04-07-2010, 03:21 PM
end the game hon player

Sauron`
04-07-2010, 04:25 PM
You claim him as a support hero? yet your putting him mid where the carry goes? this is somewhat counter-intuitive.

And there are FAR better support hero's mainly because:
*Blood Hunter has No stun
*His Silence increases their attack damage considerably
*Silence is only on 1 person
*VERY fragile, and somewhat of a poor attack speed
*His DPS is alot of times reliant on him silencing himself.

This is why many players consider him one of the worst hero's in the game. And any competent team will send 2 mid to completely shut him down if they are relying on him as a carry.

In my Opinion BH is a solid ganker, and a pubstomper to those that dont understand how his ult works. but as a carry he fails miserably

Meowshi
04-07-2010, 04:30 PM
BH is a ganker carry.

He completely and totally relies on his ganks going off well in order to win.

If his ganks fail, he fails. That is why he is a bad hero. He needs a fairly large lead in order to do well. Without the lead he is a feeder, or is in lane not participating in team fights because he needs more farm.

Given that Blood Hunter dominates mid (Which he may not): Mercfh is correct- He has no stun/heals, his silence gives the enemy +80% damage, is single target, etc.

Blood Hunter doesn't even dominate mid 1v1 all of the time. Any solid ranged hero that knows how to harass can harass him out of lane (Feast doesn't start healing for an uncounterable amount until level 3 feast. It kind of holds you up level 2 feast, but even then it's kind of iffy.)

Marylinn
04-07-2010, 04:36 PM
You claim him as a support hero? yet your putting him mid where the carry goes? this is somewhat counter-intuitive.

And there are FAR better support hero's mainly because:
*Blood Hunter has No stun
*His Silence increases their attack damage considerably
*Silence is only on 1 person
*VERY fragile, and somewhat of a poor attack speed
*His DPS is alot of times reliant on him silencing himself.

This is why many players consider him one of the worst hero's in the game. And any competent team will send 2 mid to completely shut him down if they are relying on him as a carry.

In my Opinion BH is a solid ganker, and a pubstomper to those that dont understand how his ult works. but as a carry he fails miserably
That's not exactly the proper analysis. He actually does have the tools to become a pretty hardass carry since silencing himself doesn't lock him out of any of his important abilities. (His ult is a joke aside from KSing people or laughing at baddies who run with it on.)

But he's a pretty lackluster farmer, so unless he ganks and KS' like a boss, the likelihood of accumulating the items he requires to become effective is slim to none.

What those items may be, some will swear by Mock, I've always personally preferred Shieldbreaker and Savage Mace.

varon
04-07-2010, 04:38 PM
You claim him as a support hero? yet your putting him mid where the carry goes? this is somewhat counter-intuitive.

And there are FAR better support hero's mainly because:
*Blood Hunter has No stun
*His Silence increases their attack damage considerably
*Silence is only on 1 person
*VERY fragile, and somewhat of a poor attack speed
*His DPS is alot of times reliant on him silencing himself.

This is why many players consider him one of the worst hero's in the game. And any competent team will send 2 mid to completely shut him down if they are relying on him as a carry.

In my Opinion BH is a solid ganker, and a pubstomper to those that dont understand how his ult works. but as a carry he fails miserably

No offence but this is just the standard cookie-cutter reply of listing disadvantages of a hero. You need to be creative in your strategic thinking, not just mathmatical.

varon
04-07-2010, 04:41 PM
BH is a ganker carry.

He completely and totally relies on his ganks going off well in order to win.

If his ganks fail, he fails. That is why he is a bad hero. He needs a fairly large lead in order to do well. Without the lead he is a feeder, or is in lane not participating in team fights because he needs more farm.

Given that Blood Hunter dominates mid (Which he may not): Mercfh is correct- He has no stun/heals, his silence gives the enemy +80% damage, is single target, etc.

Blood Hunter doesn't even dominate mid 1v1 all of the time. Any solid ranged hero that knows how to harass can harass him out of lane (Feast doesn't start healing for an uncounterable amount until level 3 feast. It kind of holds you up level 2 feast, but even then it's kind of iffy.)

Your first sentence says "BH is a ganker carry", but that's what this thread is about. Why do you just assume the official status quo of a hero is absolutely correct? As I've explained in this thread, I believe BH is much better played not as the official status quo which you quoted. And the point is to see if anyone else plays it as such, how to improve it, and maybe to let some players learn how to play a better BH.

Sauron`
04-07-2010, 04:51 PM
What I meant by my posting was BH doesn't REALLY have the proper tools to carry. lets look at them:
Blood Sense-Useless, besides for Ganking. Which STILL can be a giant trap. The MS boost is nice though for catching up.
His healing spell(forget what it is called)-In a Team fight it's pretty doubtful you'll be last hitting creeps, this is only good for the laning phase basically
Silence-Great against AOE disablers (tempest/magmus/etc) but greatly increases their attack damage (so not always such a good idea). Increases his damage, but also silences him. One of his better skills......but Carrywise..not so much
Hemorrhage- Great for Ganking, Useless for teamfights unless your finishing off a lone straggler.

See none of those Skills scream carry, he has ZERO farming skill, and zero scaling abilities. Looking at other carries who have Bashes (chronos) Crits (Swift/Madman/etc) or Great Ricing Tools (Magebane is ungankable practically with his blink, same with chronos)

BH just has none of those. He does however have a specific set of skills (lol taken) that is great as a support ganker. But when used as a carry he just doesn't have the right set of skills to properly scale to late game.

by the way
since silencing himself doesn't lock him out of any of his important abilities This statement makes absolutely zero sense. What Important abilities? I'd hardly call his 2 passive skills important in a team fight

varon
04-07-2010, 04:55 PM
What I meant by my posting was BH doesn't REALLY have the proper tools to carry. lets look at them:
Blood Sense-Useless, besides for Ganking. Which STILL can be a giant trap. The MS boost is nice though for catching up.
His healing spell(forget what it is called)-In a Team fight it's pretty doubtful you'll be last hitting creeps, this is only good for the laning phase basically
Silence-Great against AOE disablers (tempest/magmus/etc) but greatly increases their attack damage (so not always such a good idea). Increases his damage, but also silences him. One of his better skills......but Carrywise..not so much
Hemorrhage- Great for Ganking, Useless for teamfights unless your finishing off a lone straggler.

See none of those Skills scream carry, he has ZERO farming skill, and zero scaling abilities. Looking at other carries who have Bashes (chronos) Crits (Swift/Madman/etc) or Great Ricing Tools (Magebane is ungankable practically with his blink, same with chronos)

BH just has none of those. He does however have a specific set of skills (lol taken) that is great as a support ganker. But when used as a carry he just doesn't have the right set of skills to properly scale to late game.

by the way This statement makes absolutely zero sense. What Important abilities? I'd hardly call his 2 passive skills important in a team fight

Dude, that's what I'm saying. BH is a terrible carry. He is, however, a good hero, if you play him as above.

And again, you're arguing against people who agree with you. Marylin was saying he isn't affected by silencing himself, as he doesn't have spells or great abilities to use anyway.

Sauron`
04-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Dude, that's what I'm saying. BH is a terrible carry. He is, however, a good hero, if you play him as above.

Ill give you that he's "able" to be played as a support ganker. But.....Theirs no reason to do this. Andromeda/Slither/Valk/ along with tons of other gankers do a better job than him is what Im trying to say.

Marylinn
04-07-2010, 04:58 PM
What I meant by my posting was BH doesn't REALLY have the proper tools to carry. lets look at them:
Blood Sense-Useless, besides for Ganking. Which STILL can be a giant trap. The MS boost is nice though for catching up.
His healing spell(forget what it is called)-In a Team fight it's pretty doubtful you'll be last hitting creeps, this is only good for the laning phase basically
Silence-Great against AOE disablers (tempest/magmus/etc) but greatly increases their attack damage (so not always such a good idea). Increases his damage, but also silences him. One of his better skills......but Carrywise..not so much
Hemorrhage- Great for Ganking, Useless for teamfights unless your finishing off a lone straggler.

See none of those Skills scream carry, he has ZERO farming skill, and zero scaling abilities. Looking at other carries who have Bashes (chronos) Crits (Swift/Madman/etc) or Great Ricing Tools (Magebane is ungankable practically with his blink, same with chronos)

BH just has none of those. He does however have a specific set of skills (lol taken) that is great as a support ganker. But when used as a carry he just doesn't have the right set of skills to properly scale to late game.

by the way This statement makes absolutely zero sense. What Important abilities? I'd hardly call his 2 passive skills important in a team fight
Blood Crazy actually DOES scream carry, considering his item build can synergize with it ridiculously well.


You're right about Feast, however. The only thing that makes it useful in teamfights is if you're killstealing, as it gives you a lot of longevity. Killing a hero is more often than not an entire extra health bar, which is gg most of the time.


Blood Sense is never bad, it's actually one of the best carry abilities in the game, at least on paper. An ability that can almost guarantee you a last-hit on a fleeing enemy after a teamfight versus that enemy escaping is very valuable. It's even better now that it reveals stealth units.

varon
04-07-2010, 04:59 PM
Ill give you that he's "able" to be played as a support ganker. But.....Theirs no reason to do this. Andromeda/Slither/Valk/ along with tons of other gankers do a better job than him is what Im trying to say.

No, because neither of them have the capacity to do it as well as BH. Can any of those heroes have thousands of gold by 10 min? Can they perm silence a hero? Can they force an enemy carry to stand still? Can they chase down low hp heroes and kill? Can they own a mid lane and effectively destroy the enemy mid hero, with denies and last hits?

You also mentioned the fact that teams send carries to their mid lane. There is yet another bonus of playing BH this way. If you get 8/10 creeps in a lane, you are shutting down their mid player for a long time..

Meowshi
04-07-2010, 05:02 PM
Your first sentence says "BH is a ganker carry", but that's what this thread is about. Why do you just assume the official status quo of a hero is absolutely correct? As I've explained in this thread, I believe BH is much better played not as the official status quo which you quoted. And the point is to see if anyone else plays it as such, how to improve it, and maybe to let some players learn how to play a better BH.

Here then. Lets compare him to other support heroes.

1. He is melee. There are no support heroes that are both squishy/itemindependant and melee. Since he is support and fragile, you can insure that in a team fight, he will be hitting a total of 0 times.
2. His skill set: What makes a support hero a support hero? Usually, they have some sort of skill that influences teamfights. Blood hunter has two skills- One is a silence that will actually buff the enemy (I guess it's better than getting AoE stunned), the second is a 150/250/350 damage single target nuke.
3. He can solo mid very well, but if played as a support, his feast is completely useless after the laning phase.
4. He is completely mana independant. This means that he does not need the regen given by nomes, stormspirit, ring of basilus, etc. However, this also means that he will always be able to cast Astrolabe.

Lets compare him to another hero- one with a silence and a nuke. Defiler.

1. Defiler, while may not have such an easy time soloing mid as blood hunter, has a 300 damage AoE nuke that is completely spammable.

b. Her silence is AoE. While it may not permasilence an opponent, it also doesn't buff their attack power by 80%. It's very spammable, like blood hunter.

c. In addition to all of this, she gets her ghosts, which completely rape enemies and enemy towers.

You're largely hinging on the fact that blood hunter wins a solo mid, and then he can become a support. I think he doesn't contribute enough to a team fight to be considered support.

Marylinn
04-07-2010, 05:03 PM
No, because neither of them have the capacity to do it as well as BH. Can any of those heroes have thousands of gold by 10 min? Can they perm silence a hero? Can they force an enemy carry to stand still? Can they chase down low hp heroes and kill? Can they own a mid lane and effectively destroy the enemy mid hero, with denies and last hits?

You also mentioned the fact that teams send carries to their mid lane. There is yet another bonus of playing BH this way. If you get 8/10 creeps in a lane, you are shutting down their mid player for a long time..
The only hero in that list who is worth mentioning as far as ganking ability goes is Andromeda. But then again, Andromeda is one of the strongest gankers in the game.

I have nothing but hate for Valkyries who go mid, then if they whiff a spear during a gank, they just don't even bother and go back to mid to farm for the rest of the game. :mad:

Marylinn
04-07-2010, 05:04 PM
PS: Jeraziah and Accursed are both melee support heroes, so um, lol?

jakeyizle
04-07-2010, 05:05 PM
See none of those Skills scream carry, he has ZERO farming skill, and zero scaling abilities. Looking at other carries who have Bashes (chronos) Crits (Swift/Madman/etc) or Great Ricing Tools (Magebane is ungankable practically with his blink, same with chronos)

BH just has none of those. He does however have a specific set of skills (lol taken) that is great as a support ganker. But when used as a carry he just doesn't have the right set of skills to properly scale to late game.
BH can use that damage increasing silence on himself. And since it's 80% base damage, it most certainly does scale. Compare to Night Hound's Backstab, which is 1x Agility, only when attacking a target from the back.

He might be able to support better than carry, though doubtful, but other heroes can support better than he can.

Against a good team, BH will face a double lane mid and won't be able to virtually freefarm.

Meowshi
04-07-2010, 05:05 PM
No, because neither of them have the capacity to do it as well as BH. Can any of those heroes have thousands of gold by 10 min? Can they perm silence a hero? Can they force an enemy carry to stand still? Can they chase down low hp heroes and kill? Can they own a mid lane and effectively destroy the enemy mid hero, with denies and last hits?

You also mentioned the fact that teams send carries to their mid lane. There is yet another bonus of playing BH this way. If you get 8/10 creeps in a lane, you are shutting down their mid player for a long time..

I'm reading your comments and you are under the assumption that BH will always win solo mid.

This isn't even a reasonable assumption. Blood Hunter is a poor hero, completely hinging on the assumption that the enemy will not be able to outdamage his feast, and he will get ahead. It's like you're assuming that blood hunter starts off with level 2 feast, and that the enemy doesn't have the brains to send two people mid to completely shut him down.

You're assuming that his ganks will always go off perfectly. You're assuming that people will actually care that you ruptured them, and they wouldn't shrug off the damage with teamwork (Rupture really, really does pretty low damage, especially with demsha, jera, accursed, astrolabe)

Also, Blood hunter support can't chase down enemy heroes and kill either.

Meowshi
04-07-2010, 05:07 PM
PS: Jeraziah and Accursed are both melee support heroes, so um, lol?

Jeraziah and Accursed are both melee support, but they have invincibility, as well as targetable skills which allow them to do more than look prety in a team fight. When blood hunter enters a team fight, if he has absolutely no items but nomes and plated greaves, what can he do? Nothing. What can jeraziah do? He can stand in the back, heal, repel, and ult. Accursed can heal, shield, and soak up damage.

It's just not viable. Blood hunter is completely item dependant. If he doesn't do well (Support aren't expected to do well), he's basically a liability to your team. If he does do well in mid, then he just wasted his money on items that boost stats he doesn't even need.

He's not a support because he cannot be a support.

Marylinn
04-07-2010, 05:09 PM
1. He is melee. There are no support heroes that are melee. Since he is support and fragile, you can insure that in a team fight, he will be hitting a total of 0 times.
I was commenting on this.

Meowshi
04-07-2010, 05:13 PM
I was commenting on this.

I fixed it, but the point is still there.

Accursed has an invincibility shield that makes him restore his health if he gets hit, while throwing out shields to allies (dispels!) and restoring/nuking enemies.

Jeraziah has a magic invincibility shield, an aoe team invincibility shield, and the biggest single target healnuke in the game.

Blood hunter has- absolutely nothing but a single target nuke which does abysmal damage, and a silence which buffs the enemy.

Sauron`
04-07-2010, 05:15 PM
Honestly Comparing BH to 2 of the best Support Hero's is a joke. Honestly I can't think of a single even semi-support hero thats not better than Blood Hunter.

ImANinja09
04-07-2010, 05:15 PM
You don't have to ALWAYS solo mid as BH because its still easy to last a dual lane with him with ANYONE (as long as its not with a hard carry because you will just bullsh!t him with your last hits)..

And No, BH DOES NOT ALWAYS WIN SOLO MID. Mana Battery = one solution against a BH who spams Lvl1 Blood Crazy

As far as BH being a support hero? Nope..

A support for insta-gib ganks ==> YES
As someone to gib and roll everyone before the allied hard carry shines out ==> YES
As someone to steal enemies' neut camps ==> Yes

Basically, BH is a multi purpose hero. He has a decent base STR and STR gain while having above average AGI gain and not so bad INT gain, statwise, he's good. And because he has 2 active skills that help in insta-gibbing, BH's usefulness is as simple as saying... Roaming around the map with Rupture and 1Lvl BloodCrazy ready to steam roll someone in a split second.. basically, GANK!!!

Gank is how BH supports.. not someone who gives buffs and healing pots..

BH being item dependent, yes its no arguement there.. basically he NEEDS items to be USEFUL aside from insta-gib skills because of his lack of a stun or a ready escape skill (like Windwalk or blink)

Sauron`
04-07-2010, 05:18 PM
You don't have to ALWAYS solo mid as BH because its still easy to last a dual lane with him with ANYONE (as long as its not with a hard carry because you will just bullsh!t him with your last hits)..

And No, BH DOES NOT ALWAYS WIN SOLO MID. Mana Battery = one solution against a BH who spams Lvl1 Blood Crazy

As far as BH being a support hero? Nope..

A support for insta-gib ganks ==> YES
As someone to gib and roll everyone before the allied hard carry shines out ==> YES
As someone to steal enemies' neut camps ==> Yes

Basically, BH is a multi purpose hero. He has a decent base STR and STR gain while having above average AGI gain and not so bad INT gain, statwise, he's good. And because he has 2 active skills that help in insta-gibbing, BH's usefulness is as simple as saying... Roaming around the map with Rupture and 1Lvl BloodCrazy ready to steam roll someone in a split second.. basically, GANK!!!

Gank is how BH supports.. not someone who gives buffs and healing pots..

BH being item dependent, yes its no arguement there.. basically he NEEDS items to be USEFUL aside from insta-gib skills because of his lack of a stun or a ready escape skill (like Windwalk or blink)

I can agree with most of what you said. you point out his weakness as an item dependent carry. but the sad fact is that even as a ganker, people will still use Homecoming stones to counter him.

Meowshi
04-07-2010, 05:19 PM
Basically, since he is so item dependant, he can't be the support hero of your dreams.

One of the things that makes support heroes support heroes, is that they can function without any farm.

The only blood hunter that can function without farm is a dead blood hunter. If you decided to go permaganking at level 6, people will laugh at your hemorage damage. At level 8-9, the enemies won't even feel the damage if they run around. You basically need to be one ultimate level above them at all times for your hemorage to be a confirmed kill, and that's assuming they don't just teleport in and save their ally.

Sauron`
04-07-2010, 05:21 PM
Basically, since he is so item dependant, he can't be the support hero of your dreams.

One of the things that makes support heroes support heroes, is that they can function without any farm.

The only blood hunter that can function without farm is a dead blood hunter. If you decided to go permaganking at level 6, people will laugh at your hemorage damage. At level 8-9, the enemies won't even feel the damage if they run around. You basically need to be one ultimate level above them at all times for your hemorage to be a confirmed kill, and that's assuming they don't just teleport in and save their ally.

or they themselves teleport

Meowshi
04-07-2010, 05:25 PM
or they themselves teleport

Their allies teleporting in, while less humiliating for you, is much more effective :)

One gets them a free kill, the other is like running away. And what kind of person runs away?

GGreenBass
04-07-2010, 05:26 PM
taking Nome's

NO
Why would you buy an item that takes advantage of high-mana usage when BH only has 2 activatables- one ult and one that doesn't cost a ton of mana (relatively).
DPS support like a Mock would be much smarter because it allows you to last hit more efficiently AND allows you to gain health just be being close enough to creeps.

Unyazi
04-08-2010, 08:35 PM
if u have a team that is happy to let u have every hero kill, hes awesome with that crazy health regen. however, if they want the kills for themselves (which u find most of the time in pub games) he's rubbish. you get low health, then dont get the heal, so u die.

Unyazi
04-08-2010, 08:37 PM
also, instead of mock, go for shrunken head and frostburn (if it doesnt get nerfed) and then maybe wingbow later on. gives u far more versatility than having to chase them to their base so mock tick kills them imo.

Shiverwarp
04-08-2010, 08:42 PM
It's actually an interesting idea. once he levels up blood crazy, he can use it on his teams REAL carry.

Holy **** predator with blood crazy after he's ulted...

Saucery
04-08-2010, 08:45 PM
This leaves a very underfarmed, under levelled mid hero, with BH the opposite.

:corr::corr::corr::corr:

kirbyruled
04-08-2010, 08:48 PM
Blood Hunter imbalanced healer with Astrolabe, heals himself with Feast then heals himself again with Astro.

skullkid1
04-09-2010, 10:10 AM
codex best

Jayrod
04-09-2010, 01:03 PM
to be honest, I'd be much more fearful of the support bloodhunter than the squishy savage mace bloodhunter you guys try to build.

Blood hunter won't see top tier play until he has some sort of AOE. I can see him picked as counter to stealthers since he has two abilities that screw over stealthies (silence and blood sense). Having said that, when he does silence night hound you better be able to take him out with range or at least face him at all times or he'll be critting you for like 500 midgame.

To the guy saying his ulti is useless I'd have to disagree at least until late game. Even if it takes a baddie to move with it up, a good player is essentially rooted by it (to an extent) and probably die anyways if blood hunter is wisely ganking with help.

I think he'll stay the hero that obliterates teams that don't have much teamwork/group up soon enough and be basically useless in all other forums.