No more K : D, (K+A)/2 : D

[BobSacamano]

Just do it, it's better this way.

edit. Smilies in the poll... first option is the current way it is, second is the new(and improved) formula

[BobSacamano]

No comments?

[BobSacamano]

POLL IS BIASED
THIS IS UNDEMOCRATIC
ALERT THE MEDIA

ALSO SHOULD BE K : D : A
AND K : D : A IS USELESS
IT EITHER MEANS YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST PEOPLE WHO YOU ARE BETTER THAN OR PLAYING PEOPLE YOU ARE WORSE THAN. IT IS NOT A MEASUREMENT OF YOUR SKILL ITS A MEASUREMENT OF WHAT DIFFICULTY YOU PLAY AT

the game

I'm talking about the ratio that is displayed as your "KDR" on the stats page. I think a better ratio to put there would be the one I suggested, (K+A)/2:D as opposed to the K:D

[Skibbi]

Pts/Death Ratio
Pts = (Kills + Assists * 0.5) / Deaths

[BobSacamano]

Pts/Death Ratio
Pts = (Kills + Assists * 0.5) / Deaths


Is there a particular reason you feel getting the last hit should be valued more than an assist?

[Karmashock]

I don't really see why the stats even matter that much.

All this endless fascination with a score.

Stats have some use in seeing if someone you don't know in the pubs is clueless but beyond that I just don't see the point. I only look at them when I'm host and it's my responsibility to try and make a good game. No amount of PSR, K : D, etc is going to tell me everything. The existing info is somewhat useful and the suggested change wouldn't be more or less useful. It's a meaningless change.


I don't know... I guess there are different types of human psychology out there. Some people seem to really care about this stuff... but it's as mysterious to me as people jerking off to pictures of spoons.

I just don't understand why people care...

[BobSacamano]

I don't care about stats, but I think that changing this particular formula will have a good effect on the game and the way many players participate in the game.

[verdensbeste]

The biggest mistake HoN ever did, was combining DoTA and stats. I think we are bound to see scenarios where certain stat-whores (as we call them) think more about their stats than their teams shape.

[Javdani]

This would inflate the stats.

Say you're playing 5v5 and each person dies 1 time and helps kill each of the enemies 1 time.

You now each have 5:1 ratio.

This thing was discussed in Savage2 for the stats as well. You can't measure this accurately which is why you shouldn't care about it.

You could suggest that the guy who did the guy who did the most damage (not the guy who gets KB) would be awarded some gold. But then, what if I helped by disabling the enemy for the entire fight and didn't do much damage. You see, this ends up being something you can't calculate.

If you're playing for stats, you're doing it wrong. Play to win: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

[RadicalRhyme]

POLL IS BIASED
THIS IS UNDEMOCRATIC
ALERT THE MEDIA

ALSO SHOULD BE K : D : A
AND K : D : A IS USELESS
IT EITHER MEANS YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST PEOPLE WHO YOU ARE BETTER THAN OR PLAYING PEOPLE YOU ARE WORSE THAN. IT IS NOT A MEASUREMENT OF YOUR SKILL ITS A MEASUREMENT OF WHAT DIFFICULTY YOU PLAY AT

the game

And if you play against random people, it means you have higher skill than the average person eh? Yes it does, for those of you doing the math.

[gotlucky]

This would inflate the stats.

Say you're playing 5v5 and each person dies 1 time and helps kill each of the enemies 1 time.

You now each have 5:1 ratio.

This thing was discussed in Savage2 for the stats as well. You can't measure this accurately which is why you shouldn't care about it.

You could suggest that the guy who did the guy who did the most damage (not the guy who gets KB) would be awarded some gold. But then, what if I helped by disabling the enemy for the entire fight and didn't do much damage. You see, this ends up being something you can't calculate.

If you're playing for stats, you're doing it wrong. Play to win: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw
Completely correct. KDA is useful a little bit though. It gives you a rough idea about the player, but by no means an accurate portrayal of their skill.

[BobSacamano]

This would inflate the stats.

Say you're playing 5v5 and each person dies 1 time and helps kill each of the enemies 1 time.

You now each have 5:1 ratio.

This thing was discussed in Savage2 for the stats as well. You can't measure this accurately which is why you shouldn't care about it.

You could suggest that the guy who did the guy who did the most damage (not the guy who gets KB) would be awarded some gold. But then, what if I helped by disabling the enemy for the entire fight and didn't do much damage. You see, this ends up being something you can't calculate.

If you're playing for stats, you're doing it wrong. Play to win: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

How can it be "inflated" when everyone's stats are the same? Inflated when compared to the existing, flawed, model... maybe, although dividing the K+A by 2 will make that number lower than you might expect.

[BobSacamano]

Here are some examples of what the modified numbers would be...

Me

OLD : 1.46
NEW : 1.6


Javdani (note how your "inflated" stats are actually lower...)

OLD : 1.71
NEW : 1.53

gotlucky

OLD : 0.8
NEW : 0.94

[BobSacamano]

And yes, I realize you obviously cannot measure some things, the goal is to get as close a measurement as possible. I feel that the formula I suggested is much improved over a simple K/D measurement.

I think your suggestion about using damage as some kind of meter is a bad once, because it gives a significant unfair advantage to those heroes whose purpose is to deal damage versus disable/heal/etc.

[Javdani]

How can it be "inflated" when everyone's stats are the same?

In this context inflation should be interpreted as losing value. If everyone has the same stats, they have no value.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inflated


And yes, I realize you obviously cannot measure some things, the goal is to get as close a measurement as possible. I feel that the formula I suggested is much improved over a simple K/D measurement.

But dude, that's why you also have assist. So that it's NOT only K/D.

Here's the progression of video game stats since the begining of multiplayer fps games:

- First you just had kills and a leaderboard where the guy with the most kills was top, very inaccurate.

- Second came the system where deaths were implemented and it now didn't make sense to risk everything to get a kill since your stats would end up looking terrible.

- Then came the K/D/A most games use today, it's way more accurate than the ones before because assisting now also makes sense and it removes the greedy part, all your work won't be in vain. Now in HoN/DotA assists make less sense since most ganking is done in groups anyway.

- We also have an even better system, the one they use in Call of Duty 4. You have "score" and the score is determined by not only your kills and assists but also your streaks, the amount of UAVs, Air Strikes and Choppers you activate.

It all evolves.


I think your suggestion about using damage as some kind of meter is a bad once, because it gives a significant unfair advantage to those heroes whose purpose is to deal damage versus disable/heal/etc.

I did not suggest any system. You should read what people write.

I wrote:

You could suggest that ...

[BobSacamano]

In this context inflation should be interpreted as losing value. If everyone has the same stats, they have no value.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inflated



But dude, that's why you also have assist. So that it's NOT only K/D.

Here's the progression of video game stats since the begining of multiplayer fps games:

- First you just had kills and a leaderboard where the guy with the most kills was top, very inaccurate.

- Second came the system where deaths were implemented and it now didn't make sense to risk everything to get a kill since your stats would end up looking terrible.

- Then came the K/D/A most games use today, it's way more accurate than the ones before because assisting now also makes sense and it removes the greedy part, all your work won't be in vain. Now in HoN/DotA assists make less sense since most ganking is done in groups anyway.

- We also have an even better system, the one they use in Call of Duty 4. You have "score" and the score is determined by not only your kills and assists but also your streaks, the amount of UAVs, Air Strikes and Choppers you activate.

It all evolves.



I did not suggest any system. You should read what people write.

I wrote:

I am not saying that they should not keep track of Kills and Deaths, I am just saying that on the stats screen, it would be more useful to see (K+A)/2/D than K/D, that's all. How exactly does that make the statistic "lose value".

Also, what are you talking about in regards to inflation. When I said "all stats are the same" I mean that you are comparin the same numbers from person to person. How does changing the calculation lesson the amount that stats matter(are "inflated" in your words). Let's go over what you said one more time...


This would inflate the stats.

Say you're playing 5v5 and each person dies 1 time and helps kill each of the enemies 1 time.

You now each have 5:1 ratio.

Where in there do you talk about lessening value of the stats? You don't, you're talking about the word inflation EXACTLY how I responded to it. Quit trying to dance around your words and actally make a substantiated argument.

[BobSacamano]

Honestly, you haven't said anything in regards to my suggestion past "it would inflate stats", the rest of your posts have been meaningless attempts at verbal masturbation which have served to do little more than make you look stupid. Whether or not you said "you could suggest" versus "i suggest" has little bearing on the actual suggestion that you wrote up.

I am talking about the ideas, quit focusing on how they are being conveyed, this is a discussion of an improvement on the statistical display in this game, not semantics.

[hackman5000]

I don't really see why the stats even matter that much.

All this endless fascination with a score.

Stats have some use in seeing if someone you don't know in the pubs is clueless but beyond that I just don't see the point. I only look at them when I'm host and it's my responsibility to try and make a good game. No amount of PSR, K : D, etc is going to tell me everything. The existing info is somewhat useful and the suggested change wouldn't be more or less useful. It's a meaningless change.


I don't know... I guess there are different types of human psychology out there. Some people seem to really care about this stuff... but it's as mysterious to me as people jerking off to pictures of spoons.

I just don't understand why people care...

People care about stats because they are there. If they didn't exist, no one could obviously see how they were doing or pretend to be a badass to everyone else, and therefore a lot of the statwhoring would disappear. Though I believe W:L is the only useful stat, having it there for all to see would still mean pubstomp teams or statwhores would want their wins as high as possible, and wouldn't play in "balanced" games. As I've said before in other posts, HoN felt it would be a good idea to replace the game-creation timesink that was TDA with a new timesink, the "How long can I wait for some people to join and not cry about PSR/stats/win% game". It probably takes longer to start a game with a few friends than it does to actually play it, even when the game name is specifically titled something like PSR 1700+, some 1450 guy joins and complains that the teams are stacked. Then everyone who swears by the win percentage above each team leaves on countdown.

Whenever a stat system is put into a game where pubbies who don't know eachother are on the same team, it will be abused/fixated on. It happened in Counter-Strike, except it was harder to "KS" persay, and there was no assist stat. I also remember something about lossbotting in WC3, which I believe the strategy was (correct me if I'm wrong) to use a bot that autoconcedes to tank your rating down so hard that you then played the bottom of the barrel and could then own everyone nonstop on your way back to the top. I know FPS games aren't a very good example, but the idea is there. For anyone who played Team Fortress 2, you can see that the only stat visible to other players is player score, which is pretty much just an indicator of how long youve been in that server. No one sees kills, no one sees deaths, it is a team based game, and the stats are set up correctly to reflect that. You can focus on winning the round/game/match and not about padding your score.

They could of at least done us a favor and took out the KDA stat screen when they put in PSR, but instead they just added another stat not indicative of skill for people to use as an excuse KS/build dagon. I once said to make stats visible to mutual friends/self, but that still makes a statwhoring player think he needs to KS, even if no one else can see it.

My dream is that they will remove the stat system entirely, but I'm apparently in the select few who doesn't play to inflate my ego and see big numbers.

As for this suggestion, I see where you are going with it but it would just be a bandage on (IMO) the largest gushing wound of HoN. Removing stats will make this a better game. When someone is less fixated about other people's opinions of them, they will be able to have more fun and focus on teamwork/winning instead of how good they look later, because most people right now value a kill over a win, and that's sad.

[BobSacamano]

I agree with that, I feel that the addition of K/D at all was a bad move for the game, but I feel that if they plan on keeping it in, my suggestion would have a beneficial effect on the game.

[crummy]

I think this is pretty reasonable. Essentially this would start counting "times you helped kill a guy vs deaths" as opposed to "times you got the last hit on a guy vs deaths".

[Karmashock]

<Disclaimer: This isn't really a comment on the person I'm responding to as much as a comment on the comical cultural of "leetism" in many games. Stats and statwhoring are a big part of that. So don't get offended... I'm not talking about you/to you so much as commenting on a tragically pathetic culture of internet sillyness.>



People care about stats because they are there.
What?

Rocks are under your feet... you don't care.


If they didn't exist, no one could obviously see how they were doing or pretend to be a badass to everyone else, and therefore a lot of the statwhoring would disappear.
Why does that matter to anyone? Who's going to have sex with me if I have high stats? It doesn't sound like an effective pickup line. :o

Seriously. No really. It's an entirely serious statement.

I'm having a very hard time seeing why I should give a damn.

Will I make more money and thus be able to get more cool stuff... or maybe afford to be more lazy? Can I boss people around and make them do crap for me?


See... in REAL life people tend to care about "stats"... ie "look at all the money I have in my bank account" (money is one of the stats in real life... think about it.) or "hey look, I have a degree in <I'm smarter then you>" because it lets them do stuff they couldn't otherwise do (also a stat... maybe think of it as leveling up). Like get trophy wives, buy lots of racing cars, and have loads of tards and noobs (otherwise known as poor people with little to no marketable skills) go around and do what you tell them.


But with high stats what do I get?

NOTHING! :rolleyes:

It's pointless. So I don't care. And anyone that does is probably a retard.

No offense if you're retarded... you probably can't help it. But calling me a noob in game when you're a tard in life = irony.


Anyway, stats are useful to the extent that you know whether you're dealing with a super noob or not. But beyond that they're pretty pointless and I can't be bothered to care about my stats.

[BobSacamano]

<Disclaimer: This isn't really a comment on the person I'm responding to as much as a comment on the comical cultural of "leetism" in many games. Stats and statwhoring are a big part of that. So don't get offended... I'm not talking about you/to you so much as commenting on a tragically pathetic culture of internet sillyness.>



What?

Rocks are under your feet... you don't care.


Why does that matter to anyone? Who's going to have sex with me if I have high stats? It doesn't sound like an effective pickup line. :o

Seriously. No really. It's an entirely serious statement.

I'm having a very hard time seeing why I should give a damn.

Will I make more money and thus be able to get more cool stuff... or maybe afford to be more lazy? Can I boss people around and make them do crap for me?


See... in REAL life people tend to care about "stats"... ie "look at all the money I have in my bank account" (money is one of the stats in real life... think about it.) or "hey look, I have a degree in <I'm smarter then you>" because it lets them do stuff they couldn't otherwise do (also a stat... maybe think of it as leveling up). Like get trophy wives, buy lots of racing cars, and have loads of tards and noobs (otherwise known as poor people with little to no marketable skills) go around and do what you tell them.


But with high stats what do I get?

NOTHING! :rolleyes:

It's pointless. So I don't care. And anyone that does is probably a retard.

No offense if you're retarded... you probably can't help it. But calling me a noob in game when you're a tard in life = irony.


Anyway, stats are useful to the extent that you know whether you're dealing with a super noob or not. But beyond that they're pretty pointless and I can't be bothered to care about my stats.

Do me a favor and just don't post in this thread, you're not contributing, you're just trying to troll, and you're not even good at it.

[RadicalRhyme]

<Disclaimer: This isn't really a comment on the person I'm responding to as much as a comment on the comical cultural of "leetism" in many games. Stats and statwhoring are a big part of that. So don't get offended... I'm not talking about you/to you so much as commenting on a tragically pathetic culture of internet sillyness.>



What?

Rocks are under your feet... you don't care.


Why does that matter to anyone? Who's going to have sex with me if I have high stats? It doesn't sound like an effective pickup line. :o

Seriously. No really. It's an entirely serious statement.

I'm having a very hard time seeing why I should give a damn.

Will I make more money and thus be able to get more cool stuff... or maybe afford to be more lazy? Can I boss people around and make them do crap for me?


See... in REAL life people tend to care about "stats"... ie "look at all the money I have in my bank account" (money is one of the stats in real life... think about it.) or "hey look, I have a degree in <I'm smarter then you>" because it lets them do stuff they couldn't otherwise do (also a stat... maybe think of it as leveling up). Like get trophy wives, buy lots of racing cars, and have loads of tards and noobs (otherwise known as poor people with little to no marketable skills) go around and do what you tell them.


But with high stats what do I get?

NOTHING! :rolleyes:

It's pointless. So I don't care. And anyone that does is probably a retard.

No offense if you're retarded... you probably can't help it. But calling me a noob in game when you're a tard in life = irony.


Anyway, stats are useful to the extent that you know whether you're dealing with a super noob or not. But beyond that they're pretty pointless and I can't be bothered to care about my stats.

-AREM 1500+! NO BADS!
-apem NOOBS ONLY (<1500)

97% 3%

Newbone: Uh, autobalance please?
5..
4..
3..
2..
Newbtwo: Nooo!
*all disconnect*


Just because you don't care doesn't mean most people don't, cuz they do.

S2 has heavily incorporated tracked statistics into the look and feel of the game, and that's why it is "there" and that is why people "care".
Rocks sit under your feet, stats hang over your head.

[Karmashock]

Do me a favor and just don't post in this thread, you're not contributing, you're just trying to troll, and you're not even good at it.
Actually I did contribute if you read my first post. ;)

I pointed out that the relevant information is already reported in full and that the suggested change would not actually change anything.

I further pointed at that there is an unhealthy obession with stats in this game that is not good for the community and people really need to grow up about it.

That is constructive and in no way a troll.

Try again.
=============================================

-AREM 1500+! NO BADS!
-apem NOOBS ONLY (<1500)
Not true. On of the people I play with is very good and has a very low PSR right now. If you judged him by his PSR, you'd get raped. ;)

That said, they are "somewhat" useful at weeding out terribles and super noobs. I said that in my first post and do use the stats for that purpose. But that's all I use it for.

Honestly, the most important thing for me is number of games played. That isn't perfect but it keeps super noobs out.



Just because you don't care doesn't mean most people don't, cuz they do.
Ah, but SHOULD THEY care? Lets say everyone believed the moon was made of cheese... or that the right response to "good morning" was to kick the person that said it in the nuts? Would that suddenly be ok? Or would that be wrong?

Accepting the status quo is noob mentality... in REAL life. Oh sure, be aware of it and adapt to it... but don't just go along with it.


S2 has heavily incorporated tracked statistics into the look and feel of the game, and that's why it is "there" and that is why people "care".
Rocks sit under your feet, stats hang over your head.
You can ignore stats pretty easily, bro. If your goal in every game is get those numbers to climb a bit higher I really do feel sorry for you. The point of the game is to have a good time. To have fun. Not to accumulate meaningless points.


As I said, no sex for high score. ;)


Love and peace, Karmashock.

[RadicalRhyme]

Actually I did contribute if you read my first post. ;)

I pointed out that the relevant information is already reported in full and that the suggested change would not actually change anything.

I further pointed at that there is an unhealthy obession with stats in this game that is not good for the community and people really need to grow up about it.

That is constructive and in no way a troll.

Try again.
=============================================

Not true. On of the people I play with is very good and has a very low PSR right now. If you judged him by his PSR, you'd get raped. ;)

That said, they are "somewhat" useful at weeding out terribles and super noobs. I said that in my first post and do use the stats for that purpose. But that's all I use it for.

Honestly, the most important thing for me is number of games played. That isn't perfect but it keeps super noobs out.



Ah, but SHOULD THEY care? Lets say everyone believed the moon was made of cheese... or that the right response to "good morning" was to kick the person that said it in the nuts? Would that suddenly be ok? Or would that be wrong?

Accepting the status quo is noob mentality... in REAL life. Oh sure, be aware of it and adapt to it... but don't just go along with it.


You can ignore stats pretty easily, bro. If your goal in every game is get those numbers to climb a bit higher I really do feel sorry for you. The point of the game is to have a good time. To have fun. Not to accumulate meaningless points.


As I said, no sex for high score. ;)


Love and peace, Karmashock.

It's funny that telling to to try to control your ad hominem would be ad hominem in itself.

I never said I cared about stats, just that most people do and you have to be aware of that. I have mediocre to bad stats myself, and I am of the opinion that it doesn't accurately reflect my skill level. (Aren't we all? hah.)

I think that the point of this poll is to make the stats more accurately reflect the skill levels of the players, and there is nothing wrong with the pursuit of perfection. ESPECIALLY if so many people care about it, which the simple fact is, they do, because the game is designed to make you WANT to care about it.

[Yami1]

the game
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

[Karmashock]

It's funny that telling to to try to control your ad hominem would be ad hominem in itself.
As I made clear in my disclaimer, I'm not commenting on anyone specifically. ;)

If there was any confusion on that point, that is regrettable... but I did make that point.



I think that the point of this poll is to make the stats more accurately reflect the skill levels of the players, and there is nothing wrong with the pursuit of perfection. ESPECIALLY if so many people care about it, which the simple fact is, they do, because the game is designed to make you WANT to care about it.
I don't think the correction really helps. :) I think I made that clear initially. The same information is present in both cases.

All you've done is make the number of kills less relevant... and in doing so you've made the deaths MORE relevant.


Stat-whores will still be stat-whore. Only now they'll care more about never dying then farming kills.

There's no cure for stupid. Stupid is forever. ;)

And stat-whores are stupid. When they're 40 years old they'll still probably be morons... their idioticy (I know it isn't a word scrabble master) manifesting in a of myriad ways throughout their tragically comic lives. Such is life.

But the nature of all successful societies has been to scorn douchbaggery... not accept or reward it. And that's all I'm trying to do here.

Savvy?

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[RadicalRhyme]

As I made clear in my disclaimer, I'm not commenting on anyone specifically. ;)

If there was any confusion on that point, that is regrettable... but I did make that point.



I don't think the correction really helps. :) I think I made that clear initially. The same information is present in both cases.

All you've done is make the number of kills less relevant... and in doing so you've made the deaths MORE relevant.


Statwhores will still stat whore. Only now they'll care more about never dying then farming kills.

There's no cure for stupid. Stupid is forever. ;)

And stat-whores are stupid. When they're 40 years old they'll still probably be morons... their idioticy (I know it isn't a word scrabble master) manifesting in a of myriad ways throughout their tragically comic lives. Such is life.

But the nature of all successful societies has been to scorn douchbaggery... not accept or reward it. And that's all I'm trying to do here.

Savvy?

Love and peace, Karmashock.

I don't think this fix really helps either. I actually think the K : D matters little now, and the PSR is a step in the right direction.


And stat-whores are stupid. When they're 40 years old they'll still probably be morons... their idioticy (I know it isn't a word scrabble master) manifesting in a of myriad ways throughout their tragically comic lives. Such is life.

But the nature of all successful societies has been to scorn douchbaggery. emphasis added.

[hackman5000]

Well the rock comparison is not exactly what I meant by "they are there". What I mean is that when some resource or data isn't available to someone, they don't miss it. But when it is there, they will use it and/or care about it. "Someone doesn't know what they're missing" is kind of my point.

As for simply saying "you shouldn't care about stats because only stupid people care about stats", that is my point. Too many people care, and when they just want to pad their stats, it detracts from other peoples game.

[Karmashock]

Well the rock comparison is not exactly what I meant by "they are there". What I mean is that when some resource or data isn't available to someone, they don't miss it. But when it is there, they will use it and/or care about it. "Someone doesn't know what they're missing" is kind of my point.

As for simply saying "you shouldn't care about stats because only stupid people care about stats", that is my point. Too many people care, and when they just want to pad their stats, it detracts from other peoples game.
The problem is that you're trying to fix stupid by altering the stats. You can't fix stupid.

By it's very nature it's not fixable. Not without genetic engineering and anti douchebaggery indoctrination.

Maybe hundreds or thousands of years in the future our distant decedents will know the joy of a world finally without douchbags. But we can only dream. :o

Point being: I don't mind you changing the stats this way because I don't think it matters. Not at all. I don't think it will change anything. Having stats in the game at all will cause statwhores to express their mental illness. At the same time, stats are useful for setting up games and so cannot be removed. I can't think of any way that both let everyone see stats without triggering this problem.


As such, unless you want to trust everything to the infallible S2 Stats AI to make all these decisions for us... I think we need to just deal with the problem as best we can. Because ultimately... the world is full of douchbags... and there is no cure.

Love and peace, Karmashock. :o

[Grayham]

(K + (A/2)) / 1.5 : D imo

[Karmashock]

Why don't you start the cleansing of douchebags and kill yourself
See?

They're everywhere... no cure for them. *sigh*

[Javdani]

I am not saying that they should not keep track of Kills and Deaths, I am just saying that on the stats screen, it would be more useful to see (K+A)/2/D than K/D, that's all. How exactly does that make the statistic "lose value".

That would be the part that divides your kills by 2, reducing their value by 50%. That would be the part that makes it "lose value" since the value is now 50% lower. You understand now?


Whether or not you said "you could suggest" versus "i suggest" has little bearing on the actual suggestion that you wrote up.

The fact that I point out something stupid that's been suggested before (by others) is completely different than suggesting it myself.


Where in there do you talk about lessening value of the stats? You don't, you're talking about the word inflation EXACTLY how I responded to it. Quit trying to dance around your words and actally make a substantiated argument.

Are you serious? Inflation = reduces value.


3. (economics) A decline in the value of money.

In this cause, your stats.


Though I believe W:L is the only useful stat, having it there for all to see would still mean pubstomp teams or statwhores would want their wins as high as possible, and wouldn't play in "balanced" games.

This doesn't work, it was tried in Savage2. You end up getting stacked teams and people won't play if they're on the team with the "worse" players.


I think this is pretty reasonable. Essentially this would start counting "times you helped kill a guy vs deaths" as opposed to "times you got the last hit on a guy vs deaths".

Think further. Now you'd have people flaming because you didn't wait for them to gank 5v1 and did it 4v1 instead. You might also just get a scenario where you do 5v1 ganking which in most cases are complete overkills and that 5th guy might have helped the team better by just pushing a lane.

You have to be careful what you reward people for.


Why does that matter to anyone? Who's going to have sex with me if I have high stats? It doesn't sound like an effective pickup line.

Hi Karma! :D I actually did use this once and it worked! :P

[StormFlock]

assists could be one long ranged attack from a 5hp int hero. be stupid to make it k+a/2:d. stats would be inflated alot. not like stats really matter though. kinda wish they would just disable them and people would just play instead of kicking players so they have a better chance at winning. ****en stupid hosts.

[Karmashock]

Hi Karma! :D I actually did use this once and it worked! :P
yeah, but be honest... she was crossed eyed... and your mom. :eek::p

And on top of that it was pity sex.

[Heliotic]

The only stat that matters is W:L and leavers.

Matchmaking should have a system to support finding equal skill teams.

Your rating should also not be at risk if your team is significantly worse than you or your opponents.

[Javdani]

yeah, but be honest... she was crossed eyed... and your mom. :eek::p

And on top of that it was pity sex.

Nah, but she WAS a gamer herself!

Think that's why it worked. :D

[BobSacamano]

That would be the part that divides your kills by 2, reducing their value by 50%. That would be the part that makes it "lose value" since the value is now 50% lower. You understand now?

It's simply to make the numbers appear closer to their original value, you could just do K+A/D if you really wanted to as well.


The fact that I point out something stupid that's been suggested before (by others) is completely different than suggesting it myself.

I'm aware it's different, it just doesn't matter one way or another.


Are you serious? Inflation = reduces value.

3. (economics) A decline in the value of money.

Is this economics? no
Is this a dicussion of money? no


This doesn't work, it was tried in Savage2. You end up getting stacked teams and people won't play if they're on the team with the "worse" players.

Then they don't have to play the game, W:L is readily available in HoN for anyone to see, and there were over 12,000 people playing last night, so I guess it's really not that bad.


Think further. Now you'd have people flaming because you didn't wait for them to gank 5v1 and did it 4v1 instead. You might also just get a scenario where you do 5v1 ganking which in most cases are complete overkills and that 5th guy might have helped the team better by just pushing a lane.

No, you wouldn't. That's just dumb. Again, you've failed to realize what I'm saying. This suggestion is an IMPROVEMENT over the current system. Do you really think my suggestion will make this game worse?

[Terminator25]

Maybe worst idea ever.

Why?

First: Current system (K/D/A) is excellent as it is. It shows you how much Kill/Deaths a player has and how much he assists his team (Assist). It shows exactly the players history.

Second: With you system, I could play a hero (range preferably) and just hit every opponent on the opposite team once to get an assist and cower back while my team is killing them (avoiding a death and increasing the possibilities my team will have more deaths and less kills). But I wouldn't mind as I would have reduced the chances to get killed on the game by a lot and getting any kills my team wins as if I had helped them.

Third: When you combine things, you don't make the image clearer. The opposite you are blurring things.

And no I am not the Kill > Assists guy. Actually with your system I would be higher than I am now but I still find it wrong.

PSR rating must be changed but base it to (K + A/2) / D as someone state it while result in ppl afraid to take risk to not lower their rating, which may result to a defeat. The best system I think to be a formula based on all players PSR on how max points they can get/lose (around the same with what they use now) but from that max increase/decrease take only a percentage based on a formula that takes into account your K/D/A of that single game. So people who actually helped will benefit more than the feeders. There Assists should have an equal or almost equal value with Kills to make it more fair.

The above results to:
Good players on winning team, getting lots of points
Bad playes on winning team, getting fewer points
Good players on losing team, losing only a few points
Bad Players on losing team, losing lots of points

It's not perfect but I aim for the best possible.

Why did I propose that to happen to PSR and not on Stats showing?
Because PSR is supposed to measure skill while Stats are there to see the player's ... wait ... it's coming ... wait a bit more ... Stats history.

Edit: I didn't vote at the poll as I don't agree with neither. I would have chosen K/D/A if there was an option.
Edit2: Typos.

[Trespass]

I think the most pertinent question to come out of all of this is... what is wrong with spoon porn?

[Skibbi]

Pts/Death Ratio
Pts = (Kills + Assists * 0.5) / Deaths


Is there a particular reason you feel getting the last hit should be valued more than an assist?
2 people can get assists... i was trying to keep from ratios getting rediculous

[BobSacamano]

Pts/Death Ratio
Pts = (Kills + Assists * 0.5) / Deaths


2 people can get assists... i was trying to keep from ratios getting rediculous

Ridiculous? What about them is ridiculous exactly?


Maybe worst idea ever.

Why?

First: Current system (K/D/A) is excellent as it is. It shows you how much Kill/Deaths a player has and how much he assists his team (Assist). It shows exactly the players history.


I never said remove any of that


Second: With you system, I could play a hero (range preferably) and just hit every opponent on the opposite team once to get an assist and cower back while my team is killing them (avoiding a death and increasing the possibilities my team will have more deaths and less kills). But I wouldn't mind as I would have reduced the chances to get killed on the game by a lot and getting any kills my team wins as if I had helped them.

I don't think you realize how an assist works.


Third: When you combine things, you don't make the image clearer. The opposite you are blurring things.

What are you talking about?


And no I am not the Kill > Assists guy. Actually with your system I would be higher than I am now but I still find it wrong.

PSR rating must be changed but base it to (K + A/2) / D as someone state it while result in ppl afraid to take risk to not lower their rating, which may result to a defeat. The best system I think to be a formula based on all players PSR on how max points they can get/lose (around the same with what they use now) but from that max increase/decrease take only a percentage based on a formula that takes into account your K/D/A of that single game. So people who actually helped will benefit more than the feeders. There Assists should have an equal or almost equal value with Kills to make it more fair.


I never said anything about PSR.

Read, Comprehend, Post.

I don't really feel like replying to the rest of your post because it's just mindless drivel about PSR which has nothing to do with this idea.

[Javdani]

3. (economics) A decline in the value of money.

Is this economics? no
Is this a dicussion of money? no

Wow.. you really are... wow.. you're serious? Okey then.

Here's another word you need to learn: Metaphor
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/metaphor


Then they don't have to play the game, W:L is readily available in HoN for anyone to see, and there were over 12,000 people playing last night, so I guess it's really not that bad.

This is flawed. With the current situation people can look at more stats than just your W/L, so that's not why they're still playing.

I was pointing out that a system like that is flawed.


No, you wouldn't. That's just dumb. Again, you've failed to realize what I'm saying. This suggestion is an IMPROVEMENT over the current system. Do you really think my suggestion will make this game worse?

Your suggestion is not an improvement. You believe it is but it's not as I've pointed out.

You will still be able to exclude players from games based on their stats, their W/L ratio, their PSR rating and the only thing that'd be changed is the fact that your K/D would now be inaccurate.

This is a worsening of the situation. On top of it you say:


I never said remove any of that

If you don't remove the other stuff, anyone who's passed the 3rd grade will be able to make a quick calculation from looking at the numbers of whether or not a player has a good or bad K/D ratio.

[BobSacamano]

You will still be able to exclude players from games based on their stats, their W/L ratio, their PSR rating and the only thing that'd be changed is the fact that your K/D would now be inaccurate.


Again, read, comprehend, post.

The way it will improve the game is there will be less killstealing for stats.

That is all.

[LeoWoof]

Honestly I'd be happy if they just added an A column to the ratio for quick reference. So many people JUST look at the K:D ratio and ignore A, and maybe it doesn't matter at higher levels but for us pubbies it does make it hard to find games sometimes.

[Karmashock]

Nah, but she WAS a gamer herself!

Think that's why it worked. :D
I remain highly dubious of that claim.:rolleyes::p

[Javdani]

The way it will improve the game is there will be less killstealing for stats.

That is all.

If you're still registering kills, you won't get people to killsteal less.

[Terminator25]

I never said remove any of that

You said about the K/D ratio showed on the stats screen. It's the same thing. Atlering that gives the wrong impression.


I don't think you realize how an assist works.

If you do even 1 damage to a player who dies shortly after, you get an assist. Hit and run tactics works perfectly.


What are you talking about?

I thought you wanted to remove Assist entirely. But still messing with the K/D ratio is meaningless. Everyone should have 1.1+:1 ratio as getting Assists is not really hard, even bad players can have tons of that. Most team fights that happens Assists are gotten from evereone, making it a not interesting ratio and if people don't want you because of that ratio, then good we don't want to play with tools.


I never said anything about PSR.

Read, Comprehend, Post.

I don't really feel like replying to the rest of your post because it's just mindless drivel about PSR which has nothing to do with this idea.

The PSR talking was not a responce to you but on some others that mentioned it here.

Also people should worry less for pointless things like statistics on a page and worry more about making the playing enviroment more pleasant and "skill" system more fair.

[zombie_shark]

agreed. i think the game would be better without stats...but a part of me doesn't mind them if they are displayed in a manner that took more information into account. i don't mind k+a/2 but i'd rather them go further if they are going to change anything at all.

[BobSacamano]

You said about the K/D ratio showed on the stats screen. It's the same thing. Atlering that gives the wrong impression.

The only thing I'm suggesting is changed is the K:D ratio, that is it. Your original statement : "First: Current system (K/D/A) is excellent as it is. It shows you how much Kill/Deaths a player has and how much he assists his team (Assist). It shows exactly the players history."

I am not suggesting we remove any of those numbers, simple replace the K:D ratio with a different ratio, that is all.


If you do even 1 damage to a player who dies shortly after, you get an assist. Hit and run tactics works perfectly.

How are you rewarded by doing 1 damage to a player and then running away? You don't get anything if the enemy does not die.



I thought you wanted to remove Assist entirely. But still messing with the K/D ratio is meaningless. Everyone should have 1.1+:1 ratio as getting Assists is not really hard, even bad players can have tons of that. Most team fights that happens Assists are gotten from evereone, making it a not interesting ratio and if people don't want you because of that ratio, then good we don't want to play with tools.

From the datamining I've done, honestly it doesn't change the ratios that much one way or another. And there are plenty of people who wouldn't be over 1.1+ (for example, you, who would have a 0.88 ratio)


Also people should worry less for pointless things like statistics on a page and worry more about making the playing enviroment more pleasant and "skill" system more fair.

What does that have to do with anything? Stats are here to stay, whether you, Karmaretardshock or anyone else says. What we do now is we refine those stats and we make them the best indicator possible. It's difficult to do that for a team game, but I think this suggestion is a step in the correct direction.

[BobSacamano]

If you're still registering kills, you won't get people to killsteal less.

I don't think so, and it would appear that my poll has overwhelming support from the community...

over 80% approve.

[RadicalRhyme]

I don't think so, and it would appear that my poll has overwhelming support from the community...

over 80% approve.


K: D (help, my brain doesn't work!)


(K+A)/2: D (I am a brilliant genius)

Nice, fair, balanced, clearly there are no outside factors swaying the pct of people that vote yes on (K+A)/2: D.

I've stated earlier in this thread and I reiterate with more vehemence: NOBODY WILL EVER TAKE YOUR POLL SERIOUSLY if it is formatted this way.

It's like electing a public officer with a ballot that says

O: Republican (LOL TARD)
O: Democrat ( You are admired for your intelligence and capacity for reason. )

[BobSacamano]

K: D (help, my brain doesn't work!)


(K+A)/2: D (I am a brilliant genius)

Nice, fair, balanced, clearly there are no outside factors swaying the pct of people that vote yes on (K+A)/2: D.

I've stated earlier in this thread and I reiterate with more vehemence: NOBODY WILL EVER TAKE YOUR POLL SERIOUSLY if it is formatted this way.

It's like electing a public officer with a ballot that says

O: Republican (LOL TARD)
O: Democrat ( You are admired for your intelligence and capacity for reason. )


You really think that is the reason that there is overwhelming support for the poll? Really?

[RadicalRhyme]

You really think that is the reason that there is overwhelming support for the poll? Really?
Didn't say it was. It affected the outcome, that much is sure, in 150 or something votes, at least one vote occurred or did not occur because of the wording of the poll.

I voted yes on the proposal by the way.

I'm mostly making the point that if you want to be taken seriously by anybody, you have to be serious, and artificially swaying the votes in your favor is unprofessional. You turn serious people off of your idea from the outset.

[Josh242]

yeah witht he removal of the kd ratio imo mentally it will add to the game. Stats are mainly for epeen and people will mainly start cairing about kills and worried to fight incase the kd ratio goes down. Though i feel that their should be a match winning stat because that is more likely to motivate for victory.

[RadicalRhyme]

yeah witht he removal of the kd ratio imo mentally it will add to the game. Stats are mainly for epeen and people will mainly start cairing about kills and worried to fight incase the kd ratio goes down. Though i feel that their should be a match winning stat because that is more likely to motivate for victory.

There is a win loss ratio, view my signature.

[KARTlK]

If the government decides to take everyone's money, and give it back in double, and changes everything with money and doubles it, nothing has changed. This is the same. There is no "inflation".

[Lemmings1]

Just do it, it's better this way.

edit. Smilies in the poll... first option is the current way it is, second is the new(and improved) formula

I say both. KPD and eKPD (enhanced Kills Per Death Ratio)... or KPD and aKPD (assists and Kills Per Death)

[LiquorQ]

Omg i came when i saw this. /signed forever. Assists > kills.

[Elman1]

KDA = e^(K + Sqrt(A)) / (dD/dt)

[Lemmings1]

KDA = e^(K + Sqrt(A)) / (dD/dt)


heh....you make me cry inside...

[chiakoni]

....

[BobSacamano]

I say both. KPD and eKPD (enhanced Kills Per Death Ratio)... or KPD and aKPD (assists and Kills Per Death)
Why both? What does KDR tell you other than how well someone killsteals.

[NinjApe]

I'm for, it's not much, but everything that makes this game a bit more friendly and promotes teamplaying is good in my book. Way too many people being full of themselves with this game.

Oh and the term "killstealing" is just silly considering ur playing in a team in the first place, and there even is something called assists.
Everything that contributes to the better overall of the team should be aknowledge in a good way.
There's 1on1 option if you want to stroke your ego.

[Terminator25]

The only thing I'm suggesting is changed is the K:D ratio, that is it. Your original statement : "First: Current system (K/D/A) is excellent as it is. It shows you how much Kill/Deaths a player has and how much he assists his team (Assist). It shows exactly the players history."

I am not suggesting we remove any of those numbers, simple replace the K:D ratio with a different ratio, that is all.

As I stated on my previous post, at my first post I was under the impression you wanted to remove K : D : A numbers entirely, not just altering the ratio.


How are you rewarded by doing 1 damage to a player and then running away? You don't get anything if the enemy does not die.

From the datamining I've done, honestly it doesn't change the ratios that much one way or another. And there are plenty of people who wouldn't be over 1.1+ (for example, you, who would have a 0.88 ratio)


Hit and run tactics and I think I explained it well on my last post. Let me try again. You are going along with 2-3 more ppl to gank/team battle. You make sure you hit once everyone and run back while staying out of danger of dying (by focused fire or stun or disable abilities that will be used on the ones actually fighting). Yes you will only get assists for the ones your team mates will kill and some might escape or your team may lose the fight but kill a couple, but you don't care you are getting your ratio up with less deaths and more assists. Or a simiral scenario, a enemy hero is about to die (either by focused fire of 2+ or 1v1 battle) and you happen to be near him about the time he is near death, 1 attack and you get the same credit as the one/ones who used abilities cds/mana/lost health to make it happen. I find it a bit not fair.
Thing is in a game like this nothing can be fair, as you can't record how usefull was one for each kill (he may have only used Cyclone to delay the opponents for rest team to reach him and kill him or only healing/ccing/protecting his mate or just jerking around hitting the opponent a couple times).


What does that have to do with anything? Stats are here to stay, whether you, Karmaretardshock or anyone else says. What we do now is we refine those stats and we make them the best indicator possible. It's difficult to do that for a team game, but I think this suggestion is a step in the correct direction.

The thing is that it's not the best indicator. You want to combine 2 stats that the only common thing they have is that you must participate on a combat that an enemy dies to get them.

- Kills means that someone killed an opponent (normally or KS).
- Assist means that someone assisted on killing a opponent (which varies from doing 1 damage to using defensive abilities to help his team to blowing all his CDs to make the kill possible).

Mixing those 2 stats makes another stat (we can call it Combat Points) which means on how many kills you were present. Interesting stat? Hmmm not in my eyes and not on many other's eyes. And then having a ratio of it with how many deaths you had...hmmm...not saying much either.

I often see ppl telling me that they are sorry for the KS and I just say them "It's okay, better to make sure the enemy is dead than him having even 0,00001% chance of escaping.". But that's just me, I play for fun and to win. I don't care that much about personal stats.

Also RadicalPrime is correct about the creation of the poll. It's just...meh. Each one has his one opinion and everyone should respect that, something that may sound stupid to you might be prefered by a large percentage of the rest and the opposite.

One last thing, developers (generally speaking) listen more to common sense than polls :)

Edit: Typos

[Chaguino]

k+a/2 is the greatest stats idea i ever saw... people only looks at kills and deaths when its time to choose to kick somebody, and sometimes things are like this: 255/280/320
but they ignore assists so they kicked that guy

[RadicalRhyme]

I rethought my vote. I already know this will never be implemented, but it is logically unsound on a number of levels.

First and foremost, a kill is the opposite of a death. For every death that occurs, a death also occurs. So if you added up all kills and all deaths from all players you should get something close to a 1:1 ratio. Maybe slightly more deaths due to kills from the Legion/Hellbourne and a hopefully smaller proportion of kills from Neutral Creeps.

Assists on the other hand, are not in any way related to death, numerically. There can be up to 5 assists per death, if the hero is killed by the Legion or Neutrals, and up to 4 if they are killed by a player. If for every death there was one assist, your system works fine. If ever there is 2 assists, then the deviation would be 50%, that is to say if everyone had 2 assists per kill the average of everyone's (k + A)/2: D would be 75%.

In order to make your system work to where the overall ratio would be 50%, you would have to make it (K+A)/2 : (D+Ak)/2. where Ak is the number of heroes that have assisted in killing YOU.

Obviously this would not inflate your stats at all, and obviously you would not desire that.

I surmise that the purpose of this change would be to try make others perceive your level of skill to be what YOU perceive it to be, rather than what they perceive it to be. You would be forcing everyone viewing your stats to do so through the lens you've created, rather than just looking at the raw numbers.

[zazen]

Not that I really care, but as someone who playes support heroes 90% of the time and played Madman and Scout a grand total of two times each, this would make my stats skyrocket.

Currently my A is more than twice my K value.

[Grigden]

I do think the K:D ratio is way too important to some people, and i doubt that will change, even though it isnt really that important except for people who only play carry heroes.

Assists, there is no way they are 'worth' as much as a kill, and as it is now, there are way too many actions that dont give an assist like it should, so that stat is under-represented as it is. i do think just looking at K:D to see someones skill is a bad idea.

[Anarchist]

i vote keep same, ya my kdr is .8:1 but i dont, care i have 254 assists.

view player stats shows it all so why change

[Entropy42]

I'd like to see less emphasis on the killing blow in stats, but like maybe people have said, stats don't really matter. The gameplay enforces using K:D:A though, since kills are worth more gold than assists (please let me know if this is not true in HoN). I don't really care how they want to sort the stats, but I don't think it makes sense that the guy who finishes off the hero gets most of the glory (gold).

So in general I would rather see the game treat Kills and Assists as having equal importance. It is a team game after all.

[ilikecheese]

Or, you could just show separate ratios, one K : D, and one A : D, therefore the math would be easier to calculate in your head, and you would still get an idea of the player's abilities.

[BobSacamano]

honestly if it were up to me, there would be no assists and anyone who "assisted" would get a kill too, it's just dumb the way it is now and encourages bad team habits