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krs
04-01-2010, 04:33 AM
I have asked here (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=90728) some time ago about how to perform the Salagmites/chuck combo to do double damage 100% of the time. Got no hard proof answer so I start digging a little into the source codes for the skills.

Here the results of that:
Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4tSBsC-MU)
Text (http://www.allthingshon.com/guides/pebbels-combo-damage-calculation)


See ElementUser's post here for mathematical backup:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=1392885&postcount=25

SirCuddles
04-01-2010, 06:30 AM
Intresting, thanks. The tooltip suggests the other way around but I've always thought stun+chuck gave more damage. Thanks for proving ^^!

Nobody
04-01-2010, 06:31 AM
Knew it but my mates didn't believe... this'll show em ^^

gj with testing

krs
04-01-2010, 07:06 AM
Yeah, I was not sure myself, but I got tired of people shouting at me during games to do it the other way around. (and that no matter what order I was using :)) )

Chickenfoo
04-01-2010, 07:33 AM
Nicer, good job mate!

Tamachan
04-01-2010, 07:53 AM
I'm pretty sure 1000 people could have told you this without wasting your time.. it has always been and will always be - stun chuck..

Thysios
04-01-2010, 07:56 AM
if you just use the search you could of found a thread about this already with the same results.

Fragnat
04-01-2010, 08:01 AM
yep as always...stun+chuck

krs
04-01-2010, 08:42 AM
Well, I really enjoyed making it, so no waste of time at all.

I had a thread witch was helpful for a start, but opinions were 75% - 25%, no numbers, no nothing, no one could point me to a previous post. I have searched the forums for this... nothing, so if you found one already, can you please post it here to have a comparison?

LightRain
04-01-2010, 09:46 AM
I went into it a bit, and tested at 1/10th speed, the last time someone made a thread. You have good proof, though. Weirdly I could only get a 50 hp difference between the 2 methods, not 150.

Btw, if you press A and tap the ground immediately after Chucking, Pebbles will cancel that "hands in the air" animation into an attack. Your attack should cool off in time for you to get another one soon after they land. Most pebbles don't cancel into an attack during the combo, so they only get 1 autoattack instead of 2 before the victim starts to run.

Neru
04-01-2010, 03:53 PM
You've always been able to get double damage both ways, just using stun then chuck gives you a much bigger time gap to do the combo correctly.

LightRain
04-01-2010, 03:58 PM
No, dude. I tested at host_timescale 0.1. That's 1 frame every half second. I got 50 damage more the stun->chuck way, every time. (Because stun has a cast time, it doesn't come out immediately when you chuck, so some chuck time is wasted and the last ripple of stun doesn't get the full damage boost)

I suggest you test it yourself if you want to prove you can do max damage with either sequence.

krs
04-01-2010, 04:24 PM
You've always been able to get double damage both ways, just using stun then chuck gives you a much bigger time gap to do the combo correctly.

Exactly because of posts like the above I have made this trial. Guys who never tried it but for some reason act like they are 100% sure.

If you Chuck first, Chuck state will expire on the 3'rd Stalagmite wave at best and that is 75 less damage (or like [LN]light_rain pointed out ~50 dmg after magic reduction).

Dr`Delicious
04-02-2010, 01:36 PM
It's true that you'll get a bit less damage with Chuck first, however, the entire stun will last a little bit longer due to using Stalagmites second. Just check what you need for the given situation, its versatile.

Voulture
04-02-2010, 01:42 PM
Its still wrong. I mean, yes of course stun than chuck deals no dmg but left enemy hero stunned after the combo for much less time than done otherwise. Usually at least one extra attack can be performed when chucking first. If your auto attack can exceed those 100-150 dmg which will happen almost always, reconsider it. Well you can stop this hand in air animation after stun/throw to quicken an auto attack thou.

Its all about how much dmg actually can you pull out ingame, in such comparison as presented in video you would always prefer to deal 400dmg than deal 380 dmg and stun for 10 sec.

Hygao
04-02-2010, 01:47 PM
He is just right, no offence. ( the thread maker )

T0MMER
04-05-2010, 04:56 AM
wait, doesn't ur ulti improve chuck and stun. if your gonna test shouldnt u perform it with level 16s and not 8s

krs
04-06-2010, 03:10 AM
Wait, did you actually red what his ulti does?

Do you think it will influence the order in witch you should perform the skills in anyway? Or the damage difference between the two?

04-06-2010, 06:27 AM
There's one thing you're not considering, and that's the auto attacks in between stag/chuck.

I haven't tested it, but the reason why I use toss FIRST and stalagmite SECOND is because I can get more auto attacks in (i think)

I can get 3 auto attacks during my combo, that's quite a substantial amount with pebbles ult.

I go toss->auto attack once->stalagmite->auto attack, auto attack. I'm BARELY able to get my 3rd auto attack in due to the long lasting stun.

I haven't tested the other way around but I presume it would go like this.

Stalagmite->auto attack->Chuck->auto attack->Enemy runs/blinks away (or stuns you), no 3rd auto attack.

I always used chuck first so I can't speak from experience if you're able to get a 3rd auto attack in when using stalagmite first.

LightRain
04-06-2010, 02:09 PM
I found in testing I could get

Stun-cancel-chuck-cancel-attack, wait, attack at the end of the stun, be in range to attack again unless they have a 0frame blink or something.

Your way is chuck-attack, stalagmite-attack, attack? seems like you lose a lot of stalagmite bonus damage that way, since you have to wait for your attack point AND your stalag cast point, and that's two cancels to nail instead of one. It would depend on your execution, your autoattack damage and speed, their armour, etc. I could see lategame when you're using Demonic breastplate vs. a guy with Headdress, wanting to string out the disable so you can edge in one more attack. Maybe. Would have to math/test it and it's so situational I'm really not inclined to put that much time into it.

@tommer I tested at all levels of ult. stun-> chuck dealt more magic damage regardless of ult level.

SmokeShow
04-06-2010, 02:14 PM
I'm pretty sure 1000 people could have told you this without wasting your time.. it has always been and will always be - stun chuck..

Not true... It's pretty unclear and you'd be surprised how many people don't know. I started a thread about this a long time ago. S2 needs to change the description because it is ill...

Check the thread I made for reference:

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=66566&highlight=Pebbles

IgiveFeedToU
04-06-2010, 02:19 PM
I have asked here (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=90728) some time ago about how to perform the Salagmites/chuck combo to do double damage 100% of the time. Got no hard proof answer so I start digging a little into the source codes for the skills.

Here the results of that:
Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4tSBsC-MU)
Text (http://www.allthingshon.com/guides/pebbels-combo-damage-calculation)

M8 its pretty simple :)
just Press "W" befor "Q" :) and you be fine with the Dubble damage ;)

ElementUser
04-11-2010, 08:36 PM
After tests of my own and using the Test++ Mod at 1% gamespeed, it IS possible to achieve the same max damage with Chuck-Stalagmite than Stalagmite-Chuck. However this is very difficult to do if you do it at 10% gamespeed.

If it's difficult at 10% gamespeed, it's almost impossible at 100% gamespeed, thus Staglamites -> Chuck is the optimal order.

Note that both Stalagmites & Chuck have 0s cast point, but Stalagmite has a travel time (thus, the time when the first stun instance occurs is delayed the further it travels from Pebbles).

ProfessorOa1
04-12-2010, 01:03 PM
so if you do it quick enough it comes out the same, this explains why when I tested this months ago I got really weird results were always the same either way around. I ended up believing that the mistake was with the tooltip.

ElementUser
04-12-2010, 05:02 PM
The real reason why Stalagmites -> Chuck is better than Chuck -> Stalagmites.

As you know, Stalagmites' stun/damage instance impacts every 0.25s & it impacts 4 times, meaning that the total timeframe to get all 4 Stalagmite stun/damage instances in is 1 second. However, there is a 0.2s delay before the first Stalagmite instance actually impacts once the projectile Stalagmites actually reaches its destination.

From the code, Pebbles' Chuck projectile has a lifetime of 1 second. Now you may be thinking "Well, how on earth is it actually possible to get Chuck's projectile time to include all 4 Stalagmite instances if Chuck is cast before Stalagmites?".

The answer is in HoN's engine because it runs at 20 frames/second or 0.05 seconds/frame.

Thus, if Stalagmites impacts the enemy in less than 0.05 seconds after Chuck is cast, then Chuck will include all 4 Stalagmite instances. Note that Stalagmites does have a tiny bit of travel time and 0.05 seconds is a very small timeframe, so Stalagmites will literally have to be casted right on top of Pebbles to ensure that it impacts faster than 0.05 seconds.

For curiosity's sake, Stalagmites' travel time must be less than 0.05 seconds & projectile speed is 1200 units/second. As we know, distance = velocity*time, so the minimum distance is 1200*0.05 = 60. Therefore, the center of the Stalagmites spell must be less than 60 units away from the center of Pebbles.

This can potentially be more easily demonstrated in a time line (assuming perfect scenario and that Stalagmites travel less than 60 units from the center of Pebbles):


Chuck at t=0

Stalagmites cast at t=0
Stalagmites impact at t=0.2

Instance #1 impacts at t=0.2
Instance #2 impacts at t=0.45
Instance #3 impacts at t=0.70
Instance #4 impacts at t=1.05

There is a 0.05s grace delay in between the Chuck cast and the Stalagmites cast. This grace delay is lessened the further away the Stalagmites has to travel, where 60 units is the max distance it can travel.
As always, code proof for your reference.

Chuck's projectile.entity:


<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<projectile
name="Projectile_Rocky_Ability2"

gravity="4500"
lifetime="1000"
useexactlifetime="true"
>
<onimpact>
<spawnaffector name="Affector_Rocky_Ability2_Units" target="target_position" />
<spawnaffector name="Affector_Rocky_Ability2_Buildings" target="target_position" />
<playeffect effect="effects/impact.effect" source="target_position" target="" occlude="true" />
</onimpact>

<onimpactinvalid>
<spawnaffector name="Affector_Rocky_Ability2_Units" target="target_position" />
<spawnaffector name="Affector_Rocky_Ability2_Buildings" target="target_position" />
<playeffect effect="effects/impact.effect" source="target_position" target="" occlude="true" />
</onimpactinvalid>
</projectile>

Stalagmites' affector.entity:


<affector
name="Affector_Rocky_Ability1"

radius="200"
lifetime="1000"
impactdelay="200"
impactinterval="250"
maxintervals="4"
targetselection="all"
targetscheme="enemy_units"
effecttype="Magic"
destroytrees="true"
>
<oninterval>
<playeffect effect="effects/affector.effect" source="target_position" target="" occlude="true" />
</oninterval>

<onimpact>
<damage effecttype="Magic" amount="25,45,65,75" />
<applystate name="State_Stunned" duration="1250" />
<applystate name="State_Rocky_Ability1" duration="250" />
</onimpact>
</affector>

Stalagmites' projectile.entity:


<projectile
name="Projectile_Rocky_Ability1"

speed="1200"
gravity="0"

modelscale="1"
model="/shared/models/invis.mdf"

traileffect="effects/trail.effect"
effectscale=""
impacteffect=""
>
</projectile>

TreeHorse
04-12-2010, 05:04 PM
/thread