Raged at because I attacked enemy creeps

[absentic]

Some guy kickvoted me repeatedly because I was being a 'retard'. I was playing NH (I think) and laned with a Succ (I think). We were facing a Puppet Master and apparently I was making the PM more powerful by attacking the creeps. Can somebody fill me in on this?

:nigh:

[Mepp]

If you were just auto attacking and puppetmaster was last hitting everything? o_O

[Nasuchi]

You were probably auto-attacking > Attacking creeps with full health.
The only reason to auto-attack creeps is when your pushing a tower.

[Meczor]

Some guy kickvoted me repeatedly because I was being a 'retard'. I was playing NH (I think) and laned with a Succ (I think). We were facing a Puppet Master and apparently I was making the PM more powerful by attacking the creeps. Can somebody fill me in on this?

:nigh:

By doing this u push ur creeps towards the enemy tower, further into enemy teritory. not good...

[LightRain]

If you autoattack creeps, you're usually not setting yourself up to get the killing blow. You only get gold from a creep kill if you get the killing blow. (the 'last hit')

Against puppet with two heroes, if you both attack and kill creeps, you'll constantly push the ally creeps forward and keep Puppet at his tower, where he is much more safe than out in lane near your tower. This makes it harder to kill him.

To control a lane, you can use various tricks, like starting to attack an enemy hero so creeps chase you, and turning around to pull the creeps to where you want. The simplest such trick is to attack your own creeps when they are at low life. (Default A key to attack a target.) You can only attack allied creeps when they are <50% life.
If you get the last hit on your own creep, it's a "deny", and enemies receive less experience from the kill. Also, obviously, they don't get the gold from killing it (since you killed it).

[BlueHabit]

absentic, you are obviously pretty new. This is not bad as we all have to start somewhere. However, meditate on what Light_Rain has stated and it will go along way.

Kudos to you Light_Rain for taking the time to help illuminate core gameplay mechanics that may not be so obvious to newer players.

[absentic]

Thanks for the advice. Yeah, I'm pretty much a feeder so far :P

[Jykinturah]

Try not to play EM games, and practice the advice you have just received. You may get raged at, but just ignore them.

With Night Hound, an easy way to pick up creep kills is to pounce one when it is weak.

Also, after you get used to last hitting, look into 'creep pulling.'

[MohJ]

You should also check the Tutorial in-game. I believe it mentions at a certain point that auto-attacking creeps is bad.

[Popo]

I can't stand when noobs push my lane. In an effort to be polite and understanding, I usually say the following in order:

1. Don't push the lane.
2. Focus on last hits and denies only, you're letting them tower hug.
3. You're making it too easy for them to last hit and deny, try to attack just before it dies.

I quickly lose patience with people that refuse to improve, though. I wouldn't have a problem kicking someone that talks back after auto-attacking throughout the early game. To be honest, I'm not sure how people get past game 25 without understanding last hits and denies. It must be painful for them to play HoN.

[arieLAWL]

you really should start out this game playing support before trying a character who is farm dependent. The logic being even if you die a bunch and dont get much farm as someone like plaguerider you can still be 90% as effective as if you were farmed. Now if you take someone like NH and die a bunch and dont get good GPM you'll be lucky to live up to 10% of your potential.

[gutshot]

I really don't understand it either. How can non EM 1600+ players have no concept of lane control (not talking about the OP in this situation, just in general)? I usually join random pub games around the 1600 level and it amazes me how many people auto attack or just don't care about the lane pushing.

They think that if they hit a creep here or there it does not make a difference. But in reality, every single hit makes a difference, it could mean your ranged creep not getting below half and theirs being in deny range, causing your lane to be pushed.

This is a MAJOR MAJOR pet peeve of mine. I'd really rather solo rather than with someone annoying who pushes the lanes like this. It also makes MID not have any good, easy ganking opportunities. Which is another pet peeve of mine, when i'm playing mid. I guess what I'm saying is that, I'm very irritable in general :)


I can't stand when noobs push my lane. In an effort to be polite and understanding, I usually say the following in order:

1. Don't push the lane.
2. Focus on last hits and denies only, you're letting them tower hug.
3. You're making it too easy for them to last hit and deny, try to attack just before it dies.

I quickly lose patience with people that refuse to improve, though. I wouldn't have a problem kicking someone that talks back after auto-attacking throughout the early game. To be honest, I'm not sure how people get past game 25 without understanding last hits and denies. It must be painful for them to play HoN.

[PaulThyLord1]

Dont worry man, we all gotta start somewhere, but yeah just work on last hits and denies untill about mid to early-late game where everyones geared up, and you can really push the lanes quickly, and take down towers easially.

Remember, most players of HoN progressed here from competative DotA and will nerd rage at everything that isnt perfect about your form, try not to let it get to you.

[ImANinja09]

being :nigh: (or some other carry), you obviously have to NOT auto attack the creeps and score as many last hits as possible... but meh, rage kick-voting rather than a friendly reminder from the ally to just say "DUDE last hit man! Don't auto attack and deny pls" is just way too much for me...

[Lightening]

Go into practice mode, and just practice Last Hitting and Denying creep waves. Do that till you can get the creeps to stay where your at. You will have learned how to static farm and be much better at last hitting and denying. Those are the basics. Also to expand on what lightrain said about pulling creeps! If you start to attack a enemy hero, and you are close to there creeps, The CREEPS will switch targets and focus on you. This is a good thing because then you can run back to your tower, though you'll prob only get about 5-10 feet before they start to attack your own creeps again. Also remember if your going for the kill on a enemy hero, the creeps will attack you. This startegy works if you are with in about 5ft of the creeps when you right click or "a" on a enemy hero.

Correct me if i'm wrong, idk the exact distance, i just kind of do it...

[Lightening]

I really don't understand it either. How can non EM 1600+ players have no concept of lane control (not talking about the OP in this situation, just in general)? I usually join random pub games around the 1600 level and it amazes me how many people auto attack or just don't care about the lane pushing.

They think that if they hit a creep here or there it does not make a difference. But in reality, every single hit makes a difference, it could mean your ranged creep not getting below half and theirs being in deny range, causing your lane to be pushed.

This is a MAJOR MAJOR pet peeve of mine. I'd really rather solo rather than with someone annoying who pushes the lanes like this. It also makes MID not have any good, easy ganking opportunities. Which is another pet peeve of mine, when i'm playing mid. I guess what I'm saying is that, I'm very irritable in general :)
Best is win they don't respond and continue to do it anyways.
I had a magmus that took the AoE skill as the first. I tried to control the lane but you know that AoE damage was killer. And he auto attacked. Talk about cutting down the farm. I was Deadwood so as soon as i hit 6 (everyone else was near lvl 8 by then) i went and ganked mid with my falcon punch.
^good example of auto attackin is bad. You get outlvled.

[jay`t]

it's really unintuitive. coming from wow I wanted to do as much overall damage to enemy creeps as possible, so i'd spam aoes at them all day ahahah

[SmokeShow]

good advice in here.

one thing that will make people rage at you right off the bat is taking nighthound...

People have no patience for team mates who have 1400ish psr with a 0.5 K:D ratio and take nighthound.

A large percentage of the community views nighthound as useless. Typically I disagree, but he's very hard to use.

I would recommend you start with someone who has more survivability... accursed may be a good place for you to start. Work on supporting your team (keeping them alive), that is the role of accursed.

[Furbag]

^good example of auto attackin is bad. You get outlvled.

Auto-attacking affects gold gain, not XP gain.

[weirdballs]

maybe there should be some sort of a setting where you cant pick carry characters till you play a certain amount of games... or something like that...

[dune]

Auto-attacking affects gold gain, not XP gain.

By autoattacking you make it easier for the enemy to get denies => less XP.

[Agitator5]

Play the tutorial it explains when to attack creeps and as a side tip dont play NH

[mashmonster]

Play the tutorial it explains when to attack creeps and as a side tip dont play NH
que? NH is one of the strongest carries atm

[Randomguy360]

que? NH is one of the strongest carries atm

not quite.

[Shikadi]

que? NH is one of the strongest carries atm

Not for a new player. Very, very farm from it...

[Reonhato]

que? NH is one of the strongest carries atm

1 good game does not make a hero good.

[Kiyachi]

Auto-attacking affects gold gain, not XP gain.

U mad ? Auto-attacking affects XP rather than gold thats pretty obviously

[Lifas]

With agi carry u can absolutely control lanes, i can keep cs at the tower without pulling by attacking my own creeps at 50% and denying them.

[TheChosenOne]

A bit of auto attacking only increases gold gain. More chance to last hit. Otherwise all/most/some enemy creeps have the same amount of low health and will die at the same time.

[Eskiya]

Auto-attacking affects gold gain, not XP gain.

In a way it also hampers XP gain. If I see somebody autoattacking, I can deny every hit.

Autoattacking might seem harmless at first but it pushes the lane
and lets the other ones farm easy with the tower backing them up.

[icantrixx]

Try playing a lot of bloodhunter. I'm not saying he's a very good hero, but since he has an imminent reward for effective denies and lasthits, playing him really promotes learning the skills to do it.

[LightRain]

A bit of auto attacking only increases gold gain. More chance to last hit. Otherwise all/most/some enemy creeps have the same amount of low health and will die at the same time.
This is a bit of a myth; the creep pathing makes it so that usually a few creeps will focus one creep. Even if not, the ranged creep does a nice chunk of damage to melee creeps, so whichever creep is getting hit by the arrows will go down first.

When people say "autoattacking" they don't mean just, poking a creep to set up the HPs just right (which can be fine), they mean just letting the hero attack creeps the entire time, which many people do.

[wolverine102]

I'm sorry, but since i never played DotA, and I am brand new to this game, the very idea of having to micro-manage when I attack creeps is just ridiculous. I'm not trying to "bawww" here, I'm just stating my personal opinion. This, to me, is overly complicated and counter intuitive approach to laning, leveling, pushing. If we aren't meant to auto-attack the creeps, then why are they there? The idea of just standing in one spot, or running around like a chicken with my head cut off, and waiting for the 'right time' to attack a mindless creep is a badly designed system, in my opinion. I play games to be active, and while auto-attacking is semi-mindless at least I'm being proactive. I'm doing something and not 'waiting for the right time' to hit a NPC mob that will be replaced shortly. Also, the clunky and completely asinine "Deny" system is an other example of the backwards-thinking inherent with HoN. Not only do i need to closely monitor my enemy creeps and kill them at exactly the right moment, now i need to manage my own creeps to ensure that i keep the enemy from gaining too much xp, blah blah blah. Too much bs, give me more fun. Thanks.

[lolsworth]

I'm sorry, but since i never played DotA, and I am brand new to this game, the very idea of having to micro-manage when I attack creeps is just ridiculous. I'm not trying to "bawww" here, I'm just stating my personal opinion. This, to me, is overly complicated and counter intuitive approach to laning, leveling, pushing. If we aren't meant to auto-attack the creeps, then why are they there? The idea of just standing in one spot, or running around like a chicken with my head cut off, and waiting for the 'right time' to attack a mindless creep is a badly designed system, in my opinion. I play games to be active, and while auto-attacking is semi-mindless at least I'm being proactive. I'm doing something and not 'waiting for the right time' to hit a NPC mob that will be replaced shortly. Also, the clunky and completely asinine "Deny" system is an other example of the backwards-thinking inherent with HoN. Not only do i need to closely monitor my enemy creeps and kill them at exactly the right moment, now i need to manage my own creeps to ensure that i keep the enemy from gaining too much xp, blah blah blah. Too much bs, give me more fun. Thanks.

1/10

[LightRain]

it's a pretty unintuitive and clunky system

but you don't need to sit there and wait, you can harass and kill the enemy heroes so they can't get gold and experience
put it this way - in what strategy game has it ever, ever, ever been efficient to just A-move? It hasn't. You always want to micro, you only ever don't micro if you're busy clicking elsewhere.

So while it's true the system is unintuitive, not wanting to micro is a bit silly.
Anyway if you don't want to play the serious game (where you do try to keep track of a dozen variables) you can play Easy Mode, the lasthit/deny game is less important in that mode. Although you'll still lose to someone who is vastly better at it than you. Sorry.

[absentic]

I just had my first really "good" game vs. other scrubs.
35838131 if anybody is interested. Appreciate feedback.

[trankillity]

If this is such a massive issue then why the hell is there auto-attack in the game at all? This entire game seems counter-intuitive to any game that anyone else has played before and this is why it will ultimately push any new players away and only cater to the hardcore old players who can't see the forest for the trees.

[wolverine102]

If this is such a massive issue then why the hell is there auto-attack in the game at all? This entire game seems counter-intuitive to any game that anyone else has played before and this is why it will ultimately push any new players away and only cater to the hardcore old players who can't see the forest for the trees.

exactly. If i wanted to micro manage creeps, I'll play WC3, the story mode. I *thought* this game was about killing other players and mowing down creep waves with violent authority. Turns out closely monitoring all nearby creep mob health is what this game is all about. Woops, my bad. S2, don't expect to grow further than the DotA fanbase with your carbon copy here, if you keep things the way they are.

[Popo]

S2 and HoN are no different from DotA in this regard, whatsoever.

I am not trying to be offensive towards you, wolverine102, but it seems pretty clear that HoN (or DotA for that matter) should not be the game for you.

If your idea of "fun" is clicking once and watching your hero swing over and over again, I'm not sure what I would recommend as a good game for you, maybe a console RPG?

HoN provides opportunities for players to outwit and outmicro their opponents; last hitting and denying is just one piece of this. Though it may seem overwhelming to a beginner, quite frankly without these concepts the early game would be incredibly boring.

[wolverine102]

S2 and HoN are no different from DotA in this regard, whatsoever.

I am not trying to be offensive towards you, wolverine102, but it seems pretty clear that HoN (or DotA for that matter) should not be the game for you.

If your idea of "fun" is clicking once and watching your hero swing over and over again, I'm not sure what I would recommend as a good game for you, maybe a console RPG?

HoN provides opportunities for players to outwit and outmicro their opponents; last hitting and denying is just one piece of this. Though it may seem overwhelming to a beginner, quite frankly without these concepts the early game would be incredibly boring.

I'm not offended, I assure you. And, honestly, I have had the same thoughts myself. On the other hand, there are qualities about HoN that I do enjoy. The 'sandlot' mode of picking teams before the battle, that I like. The visual aesthetics are very crisp and worthy of praise, but this whole 'don't auto-attack' issue just rubs me the wrong way. I play LoL (don't flame that fact, please) where last-hitting is important but it isn't the end-all-be-all of the game, and the Deny system seems, to me, to be an added layer of complexity that really is overkill. Perhaps, in the end HoN isn't the game for me. I came in expecting fairly mindless PvP and instead found a sub-layer of very tactical thinking that has to be considered, which was a shock. In short, I showed up expecting Duke Nukem and found chess. Which isn't inherently a bad thing, I love chess, it just took me aback for a sec, and lately I haven't been in the mood for chess.

[dune]

If there's one thing I've learned from life: Whenever you expect Duke Nukem, prepare to be disappointed :<

[LightRain]

If this is such a massive issue then why the hell is there auto-attack in the game at all? This entire game seems counter-intuitive to any game that anyone else has played before and this is why it will ultimately push any new players away and only cater to the hardcore old players who can't see the forest for the trees.
yeah passive autoattack is pretty dumb, I wish they would add a toggle

(you would still see players attacking creeps indiscriminately, of course. btw if you want violent authority play Soulstealer, get a bottle, use hands on creep waves and fill mana with bottle, refill bottle with runes)
(alternatively, play LoL. Or TF2 or something.)

[isajeeeeep]

if you are playing 2v1 against someone, you absolutely never want to auto attack, because you just give him a HUGE advantage. You wanna be denying every single creep, and only last hitting creeps at the very last second to ensure the lane stays out of HIS tower range. This gives you lane control, reduces his farm big time, and ofc increases your farm.

When your in a 2v1 situation, typically you wanna try and pull the lane far enough from his tower to the point where you receive the opportunity to kill him around lvl 3-4.

Autoattacking enemy creeps = pushing the lane

pushing the lane = easier farm for puppet, as in most 2v1's, the single player will just tower hug, and get his normal farm going on, meanwhile, you'll be losing out on the farm.


Autoattack is only viable if you are tempting to push a tower and take it down.

[xanthra]

One thing i've seen people do, and I was guilty of myself for awhile, was as soon as my lane emptied, ie enemies went to heal, rune, piss, etc, i felt it was ok to auto attack then. It seemed like a great opportunity to make up that missed farm, especially if your lane was hard. That's probably worse than auto attacking while the guy is there, because you will be further up the lane with "probably" no wards or intel as to whos missing, and when they come back with full mana/health - your probably gonna die.

[dune]

One thing i've seen people do, and I was guilty of myself for awhile, was as soon as my lane emptied, ie enemies went to heal, rune, piss, etc, i felt it was ok to auto attack then. It seemed like a great opportunity to make up that missed farm, especially if your lane was hard. That's probably worse than auto attacking while the guy is there, because you will be further up the lane with "probably" no wards or intel as to whos missing, and when they come back with full mana/health - your probably gonna die.

Well, if the enemies have gone then it can be a perfect time to push the lane to their tower and go off for a gank or to grab a rune. By the time you get back, the lane should be nearly back to centre and you will have (hopefully) picked up a kill/assist. :)

[Mopealot]

I'm not offended, I assure you. And, honestly, I have had the same thoughts myself. On the other hand, there are qualities about HoN that I do enjoy. The 'sandlot' mode of picking teams before the battle, that I like. The visual aesthetics are very crisp and worthy of praise, but this whole 'don't auto-attack' issue just rubs me the wrong way. I play LoL (don't flame that fact, please) where last-hitting is important but it isn't the end-all-be-all of the game, and the Deny system seems, to me, to be an added layer of complexity that really is overkill. Perhaps, in the end HoN isn't the game for me. I came in expecting fairly mindless PvP and instead found a sub-layer of very tactical thinking that has to be considered, which was a shock. In short, I showed up expecting Duke Nukem and found chess. Which isn't inherently a bad thing, I love chess, it just took me aback for a sec, and lately I haven't been in the mood for chess.

You should try out Savage 2, another game by S2, it might fit to your style. Lots of PvP action, few PvE moments. Its a great game

[lolsworth]

I came in expecting fairly mindless PvP and instead found a sub-layer of very tactical thinking that has to be considered, which was a shock.

*gasp* the game has depth RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

[Foul]

Auto-attacking affects gold gain, not XP gain.
It doesn't deny all XP but it does actually deny a portion of the usual XP gain from a creep dying.

[Shikadi]

One of the most annoying things is...

Someone comes to gank. Say it's :slit:. Comes, does his ganking thing... then just wipes a wave of creeps for the hell of it. Even worse is when someone FAILS the gank and hangs around anyway, auto-attacking some creeps or just leaching your exp and giving another lane freefarm.

If you're going to come to my lane to gank, please only do that. If we want a push while you're here, WE'LL ASK.

[AtheistGod1]

Every creep you deny means ranged heroes lose 2/3 of the experience and melee 1/3 of the experience.

[Gonkor]

I am bad and want to be able to watch tv while I play.
We know.