How to play carries? (What to do in teamfights?)

[Ubuntu]

I have a couple general questions on how to play carries.

Usually I don't have a problem getting farmed on carries, (ex. madman 40 min i have helm shield breaker bkb and treads)

The problem is the team fight. As a carry, who do I make it my goal to eliminate first? Their opposing carry? Their weakest support?

I usually just activate shrunken and go for their strongest disabler. Is this right? Or should I let my team disable that person while I go for someone else.

Also, what do you do if their entire team runs. Usually when I activate shrunken the enemy team just runs for it's entire duration. During that time, because they are running, I only have a very small ms advantage, and thus only get a few attacks of on one target. Even if I manage to kill 1 person by stunning them, the enemy team turns around, owns me with spells (Now that shrunken ran out) and proceeds to let their carry own our team.

I'm only playing in pubs right now. Is this problem due to a lack of initiation/chasing ability of my team? How do I make better use of the 5-10 seconds of magic immune?

[Malefication]

I would say you do have a problem getting farmed.

[Ubuntu]

I would say you do have a problem getting farmed.

What would be good items to have by 40 min then?

[MichaelBurge]

For the situation you described with The Madman, why can't you stun someone and let the rest of your team follow up on the disables? That will force their team to either fight or lose a teammate. If you're playing a hero without any disables, you have to either depend on your allies to disable them for you or farm up a Frostburn instead of a Shieldbreaker.


What would be good items to have by 40 min then?
If you're playing a hard carry like Chronos, aim for 300 gold per minute in every game(even ones where you're losing). Someone like Madman will have less if you get a bottle, solo mid, and roam around ganking - don't expect to carry particularly hard if you do this, even though it can put your team's overall farm above their's.

[Q]

Your farming problems aside, there's no straight answer to your question. What you need to do depends on the matchup and how the game is going. The only rules of thumb I can give you are:

1. Don't die. When you die, not only is your farming set back a great deal, but you leave your team vulnerable to pushing.
2. Don't start fights. It's not your job. Stay back and join fights after they have started. This doesn't mean you should farm half way across the map while a huge fight is happening. If you think a big fight is about to take place move in that direction but stay in the back until the fight starts. When to join fights is something which you do not learn overnight and can often be the difference between who gets a genocide.

[Grizfang]

What would be good items to have by 40 min then?

by 40min on a good farming hero like MM i'll generally have threads, runed axe, whispering helm, shrunken and savage mace/wingbow. thats assuming i dont have a bad game/lane tho, otherwise it heavily varies.

[Polion123]

I have a couple general questions on how to play carries.
I'll try to help even though I've only played carries on the 1750 level and not higher.

Usually I don't have a problem getting farmed on carries, (ex. madman 40 min i have helm shield breaker bkb and treads)[/quote]
This sounds good (situational depending on the actual game but sounds legit).


The problem is the team fight. As a carry, who do I make it my goal to eliminate first? Their opposing carry? Their weakest support?
Try to focus their support/damage dealers. In my opinion, your team want to lock down the carry and not nuke him (since most carries have some sort of escape-mechanism) and vise versa.

Of course this depends on your carry but try to take out squishy heroes that have strong AoE spells.


I usually just activate shrunken and go for their strongest disabler. Is this right? Or should I let my team disable that person while I go for someone else.
This is correct, your team should be locking down their carry and semi-carries. Take their disabler out before he takes you out!


Also, what do you do if their entire team runs. Usually when I activate shrunken the enemy team just runs for it's entire duration. During that time, because they are running, I only have a very small ms advantage, and thus only get a few attacks of on one target. Even if I manage to kill 1 person by stunning them, the enemy team turns around, owns me with spells (Now that shrunken ran out) and proceeds to let their carry own our team.
This sounds like a typical timing issue. If you activate shrunken, run in, and they spread out, you've probably done something wrong (as a team).

I often don't see the carry initiating ('cept chronos, zeph) but instead enters the fight once it's coming down to a genocide for either team.
Let them (your team and the opposing team) cast their initiating spells and then go all out, activate your shrunken and go banans.


I'm only playing in pubs right now. Is this problem due to a lack of initiation/chasing ability of my team? How do I make better use of the 5-10 seconds of magic immune?
Sounds about right, initiators are very uncommon in pubs no matter the rating or so it seems. People just don't count on their team to follow them once they've started the fight.


Best way to use that shrunken is all about timing and knowing what your hero and their's is capable of.

[SilentSage]

To be honest, I find carries to be a lot harder to play then supports....I find it difficult to know when I should be farming, and when I should be helping out in teamfights

I also don't know when to jump in on teamfights xD

[IKHAN]

Grizfang honestly they're TREADS. THREADS?!?!?! Really? So you go to the shop and purchase some string? What're you gonna do, try to lay a tripwire for kongor to get pwned on? And it's HoN, treads don't exist. Steamboots son.

Anyway, I'm trying to learn how to play a carry atm to and the biggest thing I'm learning is what korzon said. Don't die, and don't be the one to initiate. Hopefully you have a good team and hang back a bit, let them initiate, then focus fire ftw.

[Grizfang]

Grizfang honestly they're TREADS. THREADS?!?!?! Really? So you go to the shop and purchase some string? What're you gonna do, try to lay a tripwire for kongor to get pwned on? And it's HoN, treads don't exist. Steamboots son.

Anyway, I'm trying to learn how to play a carry atm to and the biggest thing I'm learning is what korzon said. Don't die, and don't be the one to initiate. Hopefully you have a good team and hang back a bit, let them initiate, then focus fire ftw.

boohoo i misspelled 1 letter in a language that isnt my first one on an internet forum where the majority of the people speaks and writes worse then i do, im glad RwR keeps up their good work.

he asked a question and i gave an answer to the quoted question, if you are playing a hero like magebane, chronos, madman and scout that can farm extremely well with a runed axe and blinking/stalking around the map you want to be at or over 400gpm if its a decent game by 40min.

btw i also dont do capitals, maybe you should comment on that next.

[Ubuntu]

Thanks to MichaelBurge, Grizfang, korzon and Polion123 for detailed and helpful answers. It seem's my main problem is entering the battle too soon.

That makes sense, because as I am just learning carries my previous most played characters were Hag, Tempest Pebbles and Behemoth (All initiators).

[Grizfang]

it matters a lot if you intend to hard carry from the start or not, if i am i wont really enter group fights (unless they happen near, say bot lane or woods if im farming bottom) before 20-25min except at the end to clean up the low people and just farm as fast and safe as i can.

knowing when to help out and when not to (and continue farming) is definitely the hardest part of being the carry for a team which comes with experience and often in pugs if i decide to not join a bad team fight (as in ill prob just die without helping much) they'll scream and ***** about it, thats one thing you'll have to expect when playing carry as not everyone will always agree on when you should be farming.

[Torgaddon]

general rule is to aim their disablers/big ulters - one way to determine who you should really take out first is looking at who's casted their big spells and who hasn't. if there's a behemoth at the back waiting to blink in and cause massive damage to your team with his ult (and you know it's off cd) take him out, asap. taking out a plague that's already casted his ult isn't as important, on the other hand.

other carries are usually middle priority, with tanks/damage soakers last. this changes only if the other team's carry is already farmed, in which case you'll need to stay back a little longer than usual so you're at full strength when you try to outdps him. let the enemy carry blow his spells first, then unload on him.

usually highest priority targets for me if everyone has already casted their important spells are heroes with the lower-cooldown spells that can do a lot of damage. thunderbringer, pyro, defiler, etc. their normal spell spamming can demolish your team, if you let them.

[Ubuntu]

What items should you get as a carry if the game is being decided by an auto-attack war between your and the opposing carry? Brutalizer? (Only on melee). Barbed Armor?

I find this happens when you have two farmed carries that both have shrunken head and a lack of superior magic for either team.

[Grizfang]

in that case brutalizer works ok, i really like wingbow (for the 30% evasion) in that case, savage mace to counter wingbow (truestrike) and symbol of rage.

im not a fan of barbed armor for carries, but maybe others have better experiences with it.

[Afasia]

most teamfights are decided durin the first three seconds. As a madman you have a stun which has aoe and lasts well over a second. Grab as many people in the stun as possible. Teamfights are one of the most situational things in this very situational game. Aim to do as much damage as you can to their team overall. If you can single out a int player make sure its worth it. Its not much use to take int-hero down with a carry if it means you are faced with 3v4 the next second. As a carry you need to rely on your allies, on pubs you cant rely on anyone.

[Lethe]

@ OP:

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/m...p?mid=34972669 this is how u handle teamfights with madman

[Marylinn]

@ OP:

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/m...p?mid=34972669 this is how u handle teamfights with madman
Your link doesn't work.

[Lethe]

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=34972669

strange lol that one works

[Leetard179]

So you go to the shop and purchase some string? What're you gonna do, try to lay a tripwire for kongor to get pwned on?

you really arent funny :rolleyes:

[Yoda``]

As a carry, you should be aiming for 80+ creeps in the first 20 min. What you do with that $$$ depends on the hero and game, but you're often aiming for a <25 min Runed Axe, <30 min second item, <40 min third item. Obviously, Steamboots and Power Supply before Runed Axe.

[LoveFoolf]

Also note that when you should be farming and defending towers - defending a tower is pointless if a) it isn't going to drop b) you aren't going to get anything out of it. If you lose a tower, they get some gold, sure it sucks but it is better than you wasting 5 minutes trying to hopelessly defend on a half-farmed hero. Only defend towers when you have a decent farm, or if your team is actually there to successfully defend and possibly kill the attackers at the same time. You'll get a lot of stick for people moaning at you for not defending, but when you're farming nicely on a lane and 2 people ask you to defend down with Predator after 25 minutes against 5, you're wasting your time.

My idea anyway. Obviously, them pushing the rax/base is a different situation. Outer towers? They fall easy.

KT

[Codex5scout]

watch replays by kirbyruled. he makes a good example on how to play madman. a good guide for all carries since they're all really squishy.

I'm finding in HoN, compared to Dota, you buy a LOT more survivability items and/or strength items. or maybe not. don't know. i was playing Dota only for a couple months before i switched to HoN

[Puzzles1]

Use BKB to take out heroes that will ruin your life when BKB goes down. Finish off other heroes afterward.

[sage62]

well, the only hard carry I play is Sand Wraith, probably the best hero to balance farming and ganking because his mirage ability allows him to wreak havoc from across the map with illusions and then teleport right next to an enemy hero, terrific for mopping up or assisting in a gank when it is going in your teams favour, and it keeps your teammates from *****ing at you for not helping, so if it is just the balance you're having trouble with, perhaps try Sand?

[SilentSage]

well, the only hard carry I play is Sand Wraith, probably the best hero to balance farming and ganking because his mirage ability allows him to wreak havoc from across the map with illusions and then teleport right next to an enemy hero, terrific for mopping up or assisting in a gank when it is going in your teams favour, and it keeps your teammates from *****ing at you for not helping, so if it is just the balance you're having trouble with, perhaps try Sand?

Well this makes sense, but for whatever reason, Sand Wraith doesn't seem that alluring to play....

Currently, the only carries I play are the ranged ones....MQ, CD, and Arach

Carries I would like to try and play are Scout, NH, and Predator....The only reason I wouldn't play Scout and NH is because of the negative connotation that players are given whenever they choose those heroes.

[sage62]

yeah, scout an NH are given a bad rep, mostly because they're generally very selfish characters. Until he becomes farmed enough, scout has little role in a team fight besides using stealth to pick off a squishy int character, NH has the smoke bomb which does have some utility in team fights due to the silence and reduced accuracy. Though the main reason they annoy me is that NH or Scout oh so often just run around the fight waiting for somebody to be low health and then just steal the kill, this is especially noticeable with NH's pounce

[Flair]

Try rushing Runed Axe.
It adds incredibly to your farm.

You can also use Stalk to increase your farm even further.
When your current creep camp is low, use the damage from Stalk to last hit and let the increased movement speed reduce the travel time between camps.

Just make sure the creeps are low enough for the Stalk damage to finish them off, otherwise you'll have to break the Stalk and won't be able to use the speed increase.

[Quickfix]

Whoevers dishing out the damage for the opposing team is your ideal target. However, support heroes tend to be more annoying the longer they live, as they can keep those DPSers alive, or keep you locked up. So typically, the weaker heroes are the ones you want to pick off first. With Madman, this is rather exceptionally easy as he can just phase directly to those heroes, and pick them off with a few hits. Needless to say though, you may want to throw in a few barrel rolls to prevent the other team's DPSer from doing the same.

The better carries in the pool tend to have a method of eliminating support heroes first and foremost, like Magebane (blink), Madman (phase), Darklady (burst/blink), Scout (stealth), etc.

[Jayrod]

What would be good items to have by 40 min then?
40 minute mark items will be wholly dependent on the game you are in... I would say the items you listed in the original post can be gotten on a decent farm by the 25 minute mark

[Jayrod]

Also note that when you should be farming and defending towers - defending a tower is pointless if a) it isn't going to drop b) you aren't going to get anything out of it. If you lose a tower, they get some gold, sure it sucks but it is better than you wasting 5 minutes trying to hopelessly defend on a half-farmed hero. Only defend towers when you have a decent farm, or if your team is actually there to successfully defend and possibly kill the attackers at the same time. You'll get a lot of stick for people moaning at you for not defending, but when you're farming nicely on a lane and 2 people ask you to defend down with Predator after 25 minutes against 5, you're wasting your time.

My idea anyway. Obviously, them pushing the rax/base is a different situation. Outer towers? They fall easy.

KT

it would still be wise to have a portal stone with you on a hero like madman and pred who have innate chasing. You can get some cleanup kills that way.

[SilentSage]

yeah, scout an NH are given a bad rep, mostly because they're generally very selfish characters. Until he becomes farmed enough, scout has little role in a team fight besides using stealth to pick off a squishy int character, NH has the smoke bomb which does have some utility in team fights due to the silence and reduced accuracy. Though the main reason they annoy me is that NH or Scout oh so often just run around the fight waiting for somebody to be low health and then just steal the kill, this is especially noticeable with NH's pounce

Lol, yeah....the only reason I kinda wanna play NH is because of the PhB vs. Loaded match, where phe'V dominated with NH

[sage62]

Ah, that was a very enjoyable match

[blackrooster]

It all depends on the situation. If you get initiated on, then it would be wise to take out the carry first since all the nukes already have gone out and all the DPS will come from this particular hero. If your team initiate on them then knock off the disablers/heavy nukers since your team gonna focus on the other carry already. The same theory goes to the other team as they will do the same. It's a problem in pub that there is no real initiator or people don't paly the role correctly as mad man went to battle first :eek:. Farming is essential as long as your team is capable of surviving their team because the other carry will do the same so no 4vs5 as some already mentioned (assume decent players that know how to set up proper team). Team fight is ok if you can snatch kill(s) and get out of there alive, other wise just keep farming or pushing the other side of the map.

[pk_thunder]

1) 40 minutes what that? bad farm dood, you have to ignore ur team and just farm until your over lvled and with at least all ur core and maybe 1 or 2 of ur luxury
2) madman gets out carried, this is probably the problem. if the other team does run, you just probably just run back as well, unless if you are so farmed that u can take them on and win
3) you shouldn't run in there first, make a retard jump in there first so they focus him and then u jump in and pwn ur squishies, then ur team stunlocks their carry while u lifeleech him with ur lfie steal.

[Headbus]

Thanks to MichaelBurge, Grizfang, korzon and Polion123 for detailed and helpful answers. It seem's my main problem is entering the battle too soon.

That makes sense, because as I am just learning carries my previous most played characters were Hag, Tempest Pebbles and Behemoth (All initiators).

Hag is not an initiator. She's a semi-carry that follows in after a proper initiation.

That being said, they're is never a clear target. Generally I rank heroes that can cause the most havoc without easily being stopped high on my priority of attacking list.

Generally by the time you start big teamfights and you have farm they're will be better/worse off players on there team. Obv targeting a hero much lower level with poor damage output isn't really needed unless he is the only available target. So generally the way I judge it is, how can I do the most damage in the least amount of time. Nobody wants a carry to run past all 4 heroes to target the glacius in the back its just redundant. And obviously targetting legion is a bad idea if they're are other heroes around. But lets say legion blinks in and only catches 1 in his taunt, maybe his team isn't right on heels, if you all focus him you could probably bring him down before his team gets there.

Also, generally speaking taking out heroes that have sustained dps is more advisable. Heroes like CD, forsaken, engineer, arachna, soul reaper while they are all carries and could be harder to take out they do more dmg the longer the fight lasts.

Heroes like behemoth do 98% of there damage within 5 seconds if they initiate. However if your team gets a very good initiation on a hero like behemoth/tempest whatever, focusing that hero before they can get there burst damage out is very good.

So the basic keys are, do as much damage as you can in the least amount of time - Don't run around chasing a whole bunch of heroes, carries generally don't chase well therefor snared/stunned enemies are your friend.

Attempt to prevent "bursty" heroes from getting all of there damage out. - Sometimes the key to winning against ultimate heavy teams/heroes is not letting them use that ultimate at all. Heroes like vind, ss, engi, magmus ect ect all come to mind.

[kirbyruled]

watch replays by kirbyruled. he makes a good example on how to play madman. a good guide for all carries since they're all really squishy.

I'm finding in HoN, compared to Dota, you buy a LOT more survivability items and/or strength items. or maybe not. don't know. i was playing Dota only for a couple months before i switched to HoN

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :madm:

[blackrooster]

Some links for mad man replay kirby?