Panda-Panda-P-P-Panda SHOOOW

[Who8MyRice1]

I am by no means the greatest player ever, and this guide was made from
countless hours spent in 5v5 pubs. Use at your own risk(though this build is sure to give success)
PM me your hatred if you had bad results.


Pandamonium
Awww yeah. Stuff gets real in this guide. Cute and fuzzy he looks, but
everything loses it's charm the first time he butt crushes you, the first time his bamboo stick flicks
you in uncomfortable areas and pushes you around, then your face gets smashed?! Yeah. ****
definitely gets real.

1. Way of the Warrior
2. Skillbuilds
3. Itembuilds
4. How not to get flamed while playing Pandaman
5. Laning phases
6. Replay
7. Questions and Answers.


Way of the Warrior
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/110/icon_128.jpg
The looks of a serial killer.

Starting stats
Damage 48-57
Armor 5.38
Move speed 295
Attack type Melee (100)
Attack rate 0.59

Strength 23 (+2.7)
Agility 17 (+1.7)
Intelligence 15 (+1.8)

Now there's a couple of things to note here, Panda has amazing starting
damage as well as a great animation for excellent last hitting. The only
downsides he has would be his below average movement speed, which isn't
important due to flick. Really, his only downside would be his 100 attack
range.

What is Panda's role?
First of all, Panda is not a carry despite what many love to believe. Meaning
he will not be expected to farm for 50 minutes and then come out of the
forest to charge his team to victory. He is instead a powerful semi-carry,
initiator, disabler, and tank rolled into one fluffy package. Is he nub friendly?
Definitely no. Is he hard to master? Extremely, as a game with Panda you will
ALWAYS be changing your game style to fit that of the battlefield. You'll
hardly play a boring game with this hero, but that's what makes him exciting
to master.



Skills

http://i43.tinypic.com/24mufsg.jpg
Flurry
Your farming as well as DPS burst+mini disable throughout the game. Flurry is
the exact reason why Panda scales so well, as well as why you do NOT need
a Runed Axe to farm, as 2-3 good flicks will net you waves of gold easily. It's
awkward to aim at first, but I'll show you how to aim and use it.


http://i39.tinypic.com/1zvbj14.jpg
Flick
Panda's primary setup for the rest of his skills to follow up, Flick is the perfect
tool for those pesky runaways or for that extra edge in ganks to make sure
everything goes smoothly. Notice in the image where you flick your opponent,
directly behind you. ALWAYS USE THIS SKILL FIRST BEFORE EVERYTHING
ELSE WHEN POSSIBLE.


http://i42.tinypic.com/sowd51.jpg
Cannon Ball
Your AoE disable as well as massively powerful nuke early-mid game. 325
physical might sound scary as is, but combined that with Flick's armor
reduction and you're guaranteed easy kills as low as level 3.


http://i39.tinypic.com/s5weja.jpg
Face Smash
Your ult. The best way of describing it would be a melee version of
Succubus's hold. I'll go into more detail about this later.


Skillbuild
1. Flick/Cannon Ball
2. Cannon Ball/Flick
3. Cannon Ball
4. Flurry
5. Cannon Ball
6. Face Smash
7. Cannon Ball
8. Flurry
9. Flurry
10. Flurry
11. Flick
12. Flick
13. Flick
14. Face Smash
15. Stats
16. Face Smash

The only thing you should ever be confused about when building
Panda would be whether to get Flick or Cannon Ball first. Both are equally good, the only difference is
that Cannon Ball will get you out of a gank better.
Leaving Face Smash at level 1 is because that early into the game, your other skills will do more
damage. Level 2 Face Smash is more mana for the same amount of disabling time.'


Items
Starting Out


http://i40.tinypic.com/1zcmyix.jpg
This is your starting items for whatever the situation. Offers you a bit of
everything, enough for survival until you can get your core.


Core Items
http://i41.tinypic.com/20f2k9y.jpg
Enhanced Marchers is absolutely needed and better than other boots.
You NEED that extra burst of speed for quick Flicks, it's the difference
successful or fail ganks. Power Supply for that quick burst of mana
when you need just one more extra Flurry. Shrunken Head to turn you
into the ultimate initiator. Bottle would be the only debating item, some
consider it optional, I however call it core.


Luxury's
http://i40.tinypic.com/2nvvu3b.jpg
Blink Dagger if you need to become THE initiator, disabling their most vital
players. Heart to become a tank, Riftshards for lolcrits.
Insanitarius if you're struggling and need a cheap route to more of everything. Out of these items,
I don't recommend getting neither Shieldbreaker nor Breastplate. There's a lot
better people out there who could get Breastplate, and Shieldbreaker is not
needed seeing how it adds no extra base damage to your skills.

How Not To get Flamed While Playing
Pandaman


Skills Indept
Flurry
-Note that when you use Flurry, it disjoints your body. Meaning you can use it
to dodge upcoming Valkyrie arrows, or even phase right through Pharaoh's
walls. It's like hacks but legit! Just kidding. This doesn't work anymore. :[
-Never use Flurry when chasing, unless you have Phase boots activated.
Even then I don't recommend it unless your enemy is sitting on 100 HP,
because if he survives, you would have only helped him by pushing him where
we wanted to go.
-As with all of Panda's skills, the best time to use Flurry would be after
a well placed Flick. Where with that armor exposed, your attacks
pierce right through.

-Aiming your Flurrys
-When you're using Flurry, it helps to spam/SMASH your movement button
on your mouse in the direction you want to go. It's possible to change
directions mid-Flurry doing this as well.
-The best way to connect with your Flurry is after you've flicked someone,
then you right click them once to stick on them and Flurry away.
-If you miss one Flurry, don't continue to just Flurry into the air and waste
charges, stop smashing the Q.
-Go into practice mode and get a good feel for how it handles.



Flick
-Always use this to initiate in a 1v1 situation. Hell, even in a 2v2, or even a 5v5. It's that good.
-Save your Flicks, it has the longest cooldown out of your spells aside from
ult. Instead, wait and watch your enemy team to slip up. A straggling pusher
that went to far, an initiator who fell far from his team searching for a rune, a
careless jungler who didn't have wards, these are the openings for your
Flicks.

Cannon Ball
-Your main nuke/disable in the game
-At level 1 Flick, your opponents still have enough speed to dodge your
Cannon Ball if he has any sort of brain power,
instead auto attack him down or Flurry him a bit, scare him off to the point
where he's just spam clicking to run away, that's your chance to finish him off
with a Cannon Ball and a few more autoattacks for the kill.
-Don't be afraid of how he gets disabled if he misses as a way to not escape.
Use it to jump up or down cliffs, or over forests or into forests.

Face Smash
-Use this after all of your other skills in a 1v1 for maximum damage output.
-In a teamfight, between all of your spells available you'll often find
yourself wondering just who the hell to disable or what to use them on.
Ulti their main disabler, or even the carry. Just whoever you need to shut
down.


What is Panda's skill
rotation?
-In a 1v1, it would ideally be Flick-->
Cannon Ball-->Flurry-->Face Smash

What to do in Teamfights.

Initiating
-Until you have your Shrunken Head, you are not THE initiator of the group
yet.
-Wait for a chance to Flick
-If that opportunity does not arise, Cannon Ball face first into the other team.
Be warned that until you have your Shrunken Head, this is almost fatal.
-In a dream simulation, you'll want to Cannon Ball in, Flurry their whole team,
followed by Face Smashing their main priority.
- Of course, this is almost impossible to do in most situations. So instead
Cannon Ball in, followed by just ulting their main priorty.

Farming

Lanes
-Last hit creeps, if you happen to miss just Flurry them for the gold.
-If you're pushing, Flurry the whole wave to wipe them out in 3 shots.
-Don't ever Cannon Ball to farm lanes, it's an overkill of mana.

Neutrals
-The same applies as above, use Flurry to wipe out camps.
-Panda is one of the best mass neutral killers. Meaning that 5-6 camp stack
is cheese for him to slice through. So stack as much as possible.
-This goes the same for Ancient creeps as well, though this is better off
left for the carry, if they're not going for a Runed Axe, take it.


Laning Phases
Early game
-Choose a lane, Panda is exceptional in any lane he's put in. I for example
NEED to solo middle as him.
-Aim to last hit, don't worry about harassment for now, you have a nice sum of HP and armor early game to take abuse, and you'll hand it out soon enough
-As early as level 3 a kill is easy, even by yourself! If your partner has a
disable, it's almost impossible not to. Start with Flick, autoattack then stun,
before or after their disable.
-If you're soloing as Panda in mid, be sure to ferry over a bottle ASAP to start
rune whoring, if you find a nice invis or haste be sure to gank. Panda's an
exceptional ganker.

Item Order
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/supplies/bottle.jpg/http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4844/iconfn.jpg==>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/Initiation/enhancedmarchers.jpg


Mid Game
-Lanings over, no more of that. You're a full time team assistance now, you'll
get your Shrunken Head farm from assisting the team. Notice how little your
core was, now take this chance to disrupt their team who are still trying
to farm.
-Rune whore everything, gank their neutrals, lanes, everything. Everytime
your ult's off CD, is the time to kill someone.
-Defend your tower if it needs to be defended, push their tower if a push
is called. Move to where the team needs help, always, ALWAYS carry TPs
-If you're outta ideas what to do, start stacking some camps or ancients
and farm.

Item Order
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/Protective/shrunkenhead.jpg


Late Game
-This is where your power starts to slightly diminish since Cannon Ball won't be the once almighty nuke it was 30 minutes ago.
-Start getting some +strength items to increase your damage. A Heart if
you find yourself needing more HP. An Insanitarius if you're struggling to get
by.
-If you're absolutely dominating, I suggest you try out Portal Key. It's
an underused item on Panda, when it's freakin amazing giving him mobility
like no other.
-Heart+Insanitarius=Ungodly power with no side effects!
-Push like no other, you're literally glued to the team by this point.


Replays
-A funny game you'll definitely enjoy by me
31516424 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=31516424)
-A pretty damn close game, I eventually turned the whole thing around with
my Shrunken Head completed.
30945103 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=30945103)

As always, if you got a replay I'll gladly put it up.


Questions and Answers
Why is there no Runed Axe you NOOB?!
What's it needed for? You have Flurry to farm. The regen it provides
is unnecessary with your Bottle/Power Supply. you won't gain any extra damage from your skills
with Runed Axe neither, but of course you'll always have the die hard Runed Axe users.
So I present to them this.
http://i43.tinypic.com/1z50ytv.jpg


What is the exact damage calculations for
Flurry? How much is it affected by items?
The great debate for the first 2 pages. the calculations for Flurry
is as followed (Base Strength+Strength from items)*1.45 + (Damage from item)= total damage for Flurry
Thanks to ElementUser for clarifying this.
Meaning, if you have nothing but straight attack items on Panda,
his Flurry's will only do his AUTOATTACK damage everytime you use it. So they
will NOT get the bonus 45%.


How much does strength give into each skill?

Flurry
1 strength = 1.45 damage


Face Smash
1 strength = 2.2 damage


Do attack modifiers work with Flurry, and if so
which one works best?
Attack modifiers do NOT work with Flurry.



Rice?! What about the RICE?!
I'm sharing some with my newfound Panda pal here.



Done for now with this guide, I rushed the end to just get it out.
Drop some comments and what not, I bid you adieu`

[AvengerO_o]

Awsome guide man :)

[Donn]

nice nice, but shieldbreaker DOES add 60 damage to your flurry and ulti :p

Flurry - Deals Physical damage equal to one attack with +15 / 25 / 35 / 45% base damage.

[Sauron`]

Basically agree with everything. thank GOD u didnt recommend runed axe

[Who8MyRice1]

nice nice, but shieldbreaker DOES add 60 damage to your flurry and ulti :p

Flurry - Deals Physical damage equal to one attack with +15 / 25 / 35 / 45% base damage.

Is that really the tooltip?
I feel somewhat ashamed now.

[TheRedRager]

Omg Rice, what an amazing panda guide.

I cant play panda for ****, hopefully following this guide will help my play.

I love you.

[delanZia]

Is that really the tooltip?
I feel somewhat ashamed now.

it adds the 60 damage but doesn't get the +15 / 25 / 35 / 45% base damage, however the - armor makes up for that.

[Who8MyRice1]

it adds the 60 damage but doesn't get the +15 / 25 / 35 / 45% base damage, however the - armor makes up for that.

Ok good, so I wasn't wrong.
Sure it subtracts more armor, but that's overkill especially on a hero like Panda.
Well, at least I don't like it on him anyways. Insanitarius gives more for less.

[ElementUser]

If it helps, Flick moves the unit exactly 150 units behind your hero when you successfully start the actual movement displacement of the target.

Flick mechanics for those that are interested: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=78948

Also, Panda's Flurry doesn't disjoint - there isn't any invulnerability or any disjoint code line in the code files for Flurry.

Oh and there's this too (Version 0.1.48):


Pandamonium
- Flurry no longer DisjointsShieldbreaker's armor debuff does not apply on the Flurry hits - only stuff that affects Panda's base damage (+Str items usually do this) gets amplified by Flurry's +% base damage, hence the direct +60 damage from Shieldbreaker will not be amplified by Flurry (but will still get added onto the Flurry hit)

[Who8MyRice1]

Ah yes, I was waiting for Element to come in and clarify some things with his knowledge :P
Also, if I'm reading those codes right, Flick makes Panda immune for exactly 1 second?
That sounds amazing.
And another thanks to settling the Shieldbreaker debate there.


EDIT: I just tried this in practice mode, but Flurrying does indeed phase you right through Pharaoh's Walls. Not sure if this is intended.
Doesn't work on Valk's arrows however. :[

[laserblade]

I like your take on the Runed Axe issue. :D

[Who8MyRice1]

I like your take on the Runed Axe issue. :D

It's my favorite part of this whole guide. <3

[ElementUser]

Ah yes, I was waiting for Element to come in and clarify some things with his knowledge :P
Also, if I'm reading those codes right, Flick makes Panda immune for exactly 1 second?
That sounds amazing.
And another thanks to settling the Shieldbreaker debate there.


EDIT: I just tried this in practice mode, but Flurrying does indeed phase you right through Pharaoh's Walls. Not sure if this is intended.
Doesn't work on Valk's arrows however. :[

No it doesn't make him immune, it simply means that Panda's Flick cannot be stopped once the check for whether the unit is <500 range is made.

Flurry can't bring Pandamonium into the Wall of Mummies, but if Panda is inside the wall he can Flurry outside - don't know the cause of this. I know Flurry offsets Panda but that doesn't explain why he can't Flurry into the Wall.

[RogerDodger]

+ Damage items do make flurries do more damage.

Get 2 pandas, 1 with nothing and 1 with 6 doombringers and see who flurries harder.

[cicoles]

I thought Panda's face Smash does not cause damage anymore? It was in the change list in 1.53. Acts only as stun. Or am I mistaken?

[Skull4er]

would suggest an alternative build:

1 Flick
2 Cannon ball
3-5 Flurry
will grant a nice amount of dmg early on if you hit your target with flick + cannon ball, should deal overall more dmg then the normal route with maxing cannonball.

another item worth of suggestion is the always ignored null stone. i bought it a couple of times when i started to play panda, runed axe was not needed but the stats on it (especially the manaregen) was quite nice.
if shrunken head is not desperatly needed and you buy a sustainer for the additional manaregen you can upgrade it to a nullstone, counters for example pyro ultimate or the annoying vindi ulti (well, his aura is actually worse, but better to block one silence then none)

[Tamachan]

No it doesn't make him immune, it simply means that Panda's Flick cannot be stopped once the check for whether the unit is <500 range is made.

Flurry can't bring Pandamonium into the Wall of Mummies, but if Panda is inside the wall he can Flurry outside - don't know the cause of this. I know Flurry offsets Panda but that doesn't explain why he can't Flurry into the Wall.

I'm goign to give this question a shot. Not got code but i think i know why you can get out but not in.

It's because of the distance in which flurry moves you. You only need to travel >the radius of mummywall when trying to get out, bt when trying to enter it you need to travel the radius of one mummy + 100 (the radius in which the knockback would apply) after each flurry there will be a check to apply any new aoe to panda i assume, this is why he cant get inside because one flurry does not push him > 100 range.
[i don't know the exact numbers]

Is this plausible ?

[milkheartyou]

nice nice, but shieldbreaker DOES add 60 damage to your flurry and ulti :p

Flurry - Deals Physical damage equal to one attack with +15 / 25 / 35 / 45% base damage.

um um um um

no it doesn't
go play some em

[DemoniWaari]

Aaaah what a great guide!
At last someone doesn't say "omg goes farm teh runed axe"; instead recommending going straight for shrunken head.
Exactly the same way I build my panda, and it works wonders ;).

[Skull4er]

um um um um

no it doesn't
go play some em
yes it does
it is only not amplified by the base dmg increase. the debuff will not be apllied by flurry.

[MindBender]

Is there a way to play against :vind: ? Or do you just have to repick ?

[Tamachan]

Is there a way to play against :vind: ? Or do you just have to repick ?

1.Flurry
2.Continue playing normally.

[Who8MyRice1]

Is there a way to play against :vind: ? Or do you just have to repick ?

Vindicator is THE counter to Panda. His aura will rape you senseless.
The only counter for him mid game would be to muscle it out until you have your Shrunken Head, because while it's activated the aura will not affect you. However, his ult still does.

Honestly, either ban Vindicator, or just save yourself the trouble and not get Panda.

[Who8MyRice1]

I thought Panda's face Smash does not cause damage anymore? It was in the change list in 1.53. Acts only as stun. Or am I mistaken?

No, it still does damage.
Lots and lots of damage.

[Who8MyRice1]

For the love of god, can we get someone in this thread who knows absolutely what they're talking about to clarify on all this base damage nonsense and how it affects Flurry.


+ Damage items do make flurries do more damage.

Get 2 pandas, 1 with nothing and 1 with 6 doombringers and see who flurries harder.

ACTUALLY, I just tried this. Flurry DOES NOT increase in damage. What you're seeing is just Flurry doing Panda's NORMAL autoattack.

The debate is over, go home.

[ElementUser]

+ Damage items do make flurries do more damage.

Get 2 pandas, 1 with nothing and 1 with 6 doombringers and see who flurries harder.

Well of course he does, the point I'm trying to make is that the +45% damage from Flurry does not amplify the damage from direct +damage sources (ie, Doombringers).

Examples: Let's say Panda has a base damage of 100 (strength is already factored into this). You buy a Doombringer which gives +250 damage. 1 Flurry hit (with Flurry at level 4) will deal 100*1.45 + 250 = 145 + 250 = 395 damage.

Now let's suppose that there's a fictitious item which gives +250 strength; this adds onto Panda's base damage, so it would be amplified by the +45% Flurry damage, which gives (100 + 250) * 1.45 = 350 * 1.45 = 507.5 damage.

In general, Pandamonium's Flurry deals:

Total Damage + (0.45 * BaseDamage)

(Just like the tooltip implies)


I'm goign to give this question a shot. Not got code but i think i know why you can get out but not in.

It's because of the distance in which flurry moves you. You only need to travel >the radius of mummywall when trying to get out, bt when trying to enter it you need to travel the radius of one mummy + 100 (the radius in which the knockback would apply) after each flurry there will be a check to apply any new aoe to panda i assume, this is why he cant get inside because one flurry does not push him > 100 range.
[i don't know the exact numbers]

Is this plausible ?

I was thinking something similar too, but I did this with an allied Pharaoh & not an enemy one, so the knockback radius doesn't apply. Also unitwalking has no influence on this, I tried getting into the Wall of Mummies when Panda had unitwalking (so the space Pharaoh took up inside the wall wouldn't have mattered)

It almost seems as though the Mummies have a property that blocks entries from outside & doesn't have that property on the inside portion of the mummy (for allied units) for triggered movement similar to Panda's Flurry.

[Who8MyRice1]

Added clarification into the guide on Flurry, hope you don't mind I used your calculations and put it into the guide Element :P

[RogerDodger]

Yeah, I know that's how it works Element, just the way I read it I thought you said +damage doesn't help flurries at all.

If you're going purely for damage on flurries, damage items are more than twice as cheap as strength so cost wise it's a better choice. Nonetheless, this doesn't really change his core at all.

There's no reason really to deviate from

Enhanced Marchers
2x Bracer
1x Power Supply
Shrunken Head
Teleport

I suppose it's just a debate on what would be his best luxury, I've actually found that getting a Mock of Brilliance can be a nice luxury, or a Behemoth's Heart.

Isanitarius can work pretty well but my main problem with it is you always leave fights with little health, so if you kill 3-4 in a fight you can't push towers down.

[askthekiller]

omg rice, what an amazing panda guide.

I cant play panda for ****, hopefully following this guide will help my play.

I love you.

shut the hell up sargo no you're bad and always will be

[wala]

Yeah, I know that's how it works Element, just the way I read it I thought you said +damage doesn't help flurries at all.

If you're going purely for damage on flurries, damage items are more than twice as cheap as strength so cost wise it's a better choice. Nonetheless, this doesn't really change his core at all.

There's no reason really to deviate from

Enhanced Marchers
2x Bracer
1x Power Supply
Shrunken Head
Teleport

I suppose it's just a debate on what would be his best luxury, I've actually found that getting a Mock of Brilliance can be a nice luxury, or a Behemoth's Heart.

Isanitarius can work pretty well but my main problem with it is you always leave fights with little health, so if you kill 3-4 in a fight you can't push towers down.

I would never mock on panda. Sometimes I follow what you listed, perhaps one less bracer for a faster shruken.

Why don't you consider bottle? He is a great ganker, and though you don't have long ranged stun (magmus/pyro), you could use the mana inbetween ganks and is a decent roamer.

Great guide.

[Asinine]

Nice guide, now I have questions =D

I believe attack modifiers work with flurry, so I was thinking which life steal item would best fit him. Whispering helm to symbol of rage sounds great but only once upgraded to rage for the strength bonus, which would be a luxury. As the alternative, there is abyssal skull. The item says it increases base damage by 15%- would this increase also be part of the 45% increase to a max flurry? If so I think abyssal would be the low cost standard especially if your carry is ancient stacking. What do you think?

[Who8MyRice1]

Nice guide, now I have questions =D

I believe attack modifiers work with flurry, so I was thinking which life steal item would best fit him. Whispering helm to symbol of rage sounds great but only once upgraded to rage for the strength bonus, which would be a luxury. As the alternative, there is abyssal skull. The item says it increases base damage by 15%- would this increase also be part of the 45% increase to a max flurry? If so I think abyssal would be the low cost standard especially if your carry is ancient stacking. What do you think?

Lifesteal is NOT needed. Actually, never get it. What's the point? You disable everyone you hit, so you take no damage. If you're really hellbent on taking a lifesteal, make a Symbol of Rage.

[CRAB_STEAK]

So, question: how much +strength do you have to get in order to do the +60 damage on flurry you would get from a Runed Axe? Just seems like the straight damage items are less expensive. Right now the only reason I don't get Runed Axe is because Shrunken Head is so absurdly core on Panda.

[RogerDodger]

So, question: how much +strength do you have to get in order to do the +60 damage on flurry you would get from a Runed Axe? Just seems like the straight damage items are less expensive. Right now the only reason I don't get Runed Axe is because Shrunken Head is so absurdly core on Panda.
If you're smart with your mana you only need a Power Supply, if mana is a real problem then a bottle is a much cheaper choice than Runed Axe. The cleave aspect is useless, so you might as well compare it to shieldbraker.

Shieldbraker will make you hit harder than a Runed Axe would, and the only thing it lacks is the bad regen (It's based off your int which is pretty low as Panda).

[Who8MyRice1]

So, question: how much +strength do you have to get in order to do the +60 damage on flurry you would get from a Runed Axe? Just seems like the straight damage items are less expensive. Right now the only reason I don't get Runed Axe is because Shrunken Head is so absurdly core on Panda.

To much math for me to handle, but I will tell you an Insanitarius will give you much more damage using Flurry.
In fact, Behemoth's Heart's 35 strength makes you do as much damage as a Runed Axe.

[RogerDodger]

To much math for me to handle, but I will tell you an Insanitarius will give you much more damage using Flurry.
In fact, Behemoth's Heart's 35 strength makes you do as much damage as a Runed Axe.
Flurry
1 strength = 1.45 damage

Face Smash
1 strength = 2.3 damage

[Who8MyRice1]

Flurry
1 strength = 1.45 damage

Face Smash
1 strength = 2.3 damage

Ah, thank you for that. I'll add that into the guide too. Kudos for the helpful info.

[ElementUser]

So, question: how much +strength do you have to get in order to do the +60 damage on flurry you would get from a Runed Axe? Just seems like the straight damage items are less expensive. Right now the only reason I don't get Runed Axe is because Shrunken Head is so absurdly core on Panda.

Solving the equation 60 = 1.45*Strength will give you ≈ 41.4 Strength required.

@RogerDodger1 I'm not going to get into cost efficiency (gold/damage ratios) calculations since this is strategy & more than pure mathcraft applies. I suppose I did mis-word it a little bit, so I'll change the wording slightly.


Nice guide, now I have questions =D

I believe attack modifiers work with flurry, so I was thinking which life steal item would best fit him. Whispering helm to symbol of rage sounds great but only once upgraded to rage for the strength bonus, which would be a luxury. As the alternative, there is abyssal skull. The item says it increases base damage by 15%- would this increase also be part of the 45% increase to a max flurry? If so I think abyssal would be the low cost standard especially if your carry is ancient stacking. What do you think?

Attack modifiers don't work with Flurry.

[Who8MyRice1]

Added some of Ele and Rodger's input into the guide.
Bump.

[ElementUser]

For Face Smash, it should be 2.2 & not 2.3; I think RogerDodger1 just made a typo there

[Who8MyRice1]

Hurr durr, of course. Silly me.

[Asinine]

In the section for the skill flurry, you stated you would help us how to properly aim it but I do not see any information about this. Please bring it in, I hate whacking air like a blind kid trying to beat a pinata.

And back to an earlier question, does anyone know if abyssal skull's 15% base damage increase gets double counted in flury?(One time for his normal atk, the second time as part of the 45% additional base damage at max flurry)

[ElementUser]

Flurry has a 90 degree arc with 200 radius with the centre of the arc originating from Panda himself (so he sweeps 45 degrees to each side).
This "cone" obviously points in the direction Panda is facing.

Or for a visual representation (not the best though - I didn't make this 1):

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2219/pandasplash.png

[Who8MyRice1]

In the section for the skill flurry, you stated you would help us how to properly aim it but I do not see any information about this. Please bring it in, I hate whacking air like a blind kid trying to beat a pinata.


-Aiming your Flurrys
-When you're using Flurry, it helps to spam/SMASH your movement button
on your mouse in the direction you want to go. It's possible to change
directions mid-Flurry doing this as well.
-The best way to connect with your Flurry is after you've flicked someone,
then you right click them once to stick on them and Flurry away.
-If you miss one Flurry, don't continue to just Flurry into the air and waste
charges, stop smashing the Q.
-Go into practice mode and get a good feel for how it handles.


Thanks for pointing that out, didn't realize I forgot to put something into the guide about that.

EDIT: No, Abyssal Skull's +15% damage thing does not get doubled by Flurry.

[Karue]

Wow, I must say this is by far the best guide i've ever seen. Thank you for all the time you put into this for those who are still learning. Very impressed!

[_Loc_]

8=====D (o.o)
...............\ O /

[Who8MyRice1]

Wut.

[Roidrage]

A question about item-priorities. After starting items what should you get?
1. Power Supply
2. Ghost marchers
3. Shrunken head

Or is this better?
1. Power Supply
2. Marchers
3. Shrunken head
4. Ghost marchers finnish

Maby a small different to ask about. But i thought rushing shrunken would be better??

[Who8MyRice1]

A question about item-priorities. After starting items what should you get?
1. Power Supply
2. Ghost marchers
3. Shrunken head

Or is this better?
1. Power Supply
2. Marchers
3. Shrunken head
4. Ghost marchers finnish

Maby a small different to ask about. But i thought rushing shrunken would be better??

Never your second choice, you'll never help out the team walking around at 345 movement speed.
Item order depends on what situation you're in but it'd look something like

1.Bottle(If you're mid)
2. Power Supply(If you're against heavy spammers)
3.Ghost Marchers(This would be the first rushed item if none of the two above applies)
4. Shrunken Head


Basically in a nutshell, Ghost Marchers are your priorities. Getting off those Flick's early game is THAT important to you. Then a roaming/survival item of your choice, and then Shrunken Head last.

[RogerDodger]

You should edit the part about Runed Axe's damage not tranferring since it does. I wouldn't say the item is absolutely bad, since so many bad players will take the sustainer for the crutch regen and then 2.6k for 55 damage isn't too bad. Of course there are better options, but you won't lose a ~1500 pub because you got a runed axe.

Also attack modifiers will apply on Face Smash and you can even crit, so using Riftshards you can get some pretty mean crits in, making it a pretty niche luxury.

[Who8MyRice1]

Yea, I know your ult can crit with Riftshards, it's in there for luxurys. I still don't condone people using Runed Axe on Panda none the less, you'll push back Shrunken Head buildup.

[simonserinn]

you might want to add, use flurry at the rate of 1/sec, gives you a 5th ftw!

[Who8MyRice1]

you might want to add, use flurry at the rate of 1/sec, gives you a 5th ftw!

People only get stunned for .25 seconds with Flurry. Doing that will let them easily counter you.

[TMYTMY]

nice guide
if i got those core item already. which item should i aim for? shieldbreaker or heart seems breastplate is another good choice but the attack speed didn't get big improve for panada do u had another good ideas??

frostwolf skull is another good item for panada?

[Who8MyRice1]

After your core, the immediate best items would be a Heart or a Portal Key. Getting both pretty much means you dominate the game.

[TMYTMY]

how about Geometer's Bane??
active it then launch face smash that's sound feel good.
and also geometer's bane will got extra str,agi and int, and some movement speed will more easy to flick.

[Who8MyRice1]

Geo's main attribute is Agility, something you don't need.
It's just an unnecessary item on someone like Panda.

[LightRain]

Why do you get any ranks in flurry early on, especially at 4? Wouldn't flick 2 be better?

[Who8MyRice1]

You need that one level of Flurry just because it gives you so much new options to play with.
Pushing people away/towards things, an extra burst of DPS when fighting, one level of Flick is more than enough early on.

[TMYTMY]

Geo's main attribute is Agility, something you don't need.
It's just an unnecessary item on someone like Panda.

i will try portal key later on thx :D

[RogerDodger]

More points in flick early equals roughly the same damage from you, but it also comes with a shorter cooldown, lower mana cost and a better debuff.

Maxing flick before any points in flurry works much better if you're laning with another physical damage hero (shaman for example).

[SReis]

What about Frostburn on Panda?

[Who8MyRice1]

Panda is NOT a carry. Stop building him like one. You're better off building survival/Strength items because his skills give DPS enough.

[LegoPirate]

i heard u like mudkipz?

good guide, should see about getting it premiumed.

[Who8MyRice1]

Three guides, I lost hope at having a shiny shield next to my name.
I think it's cuz I haven't prepurchased. Cheap asian I am.

[RogerDodger]

Also, if it's a fully fledged 1v1 (no allies nearby) it's very important to flurry before face smash because by the time facesmash duration is over you can do 1 extra flurry.

[Who8MyRice1]

^Yea I've put an advice like that into the guide.
Always wanna be building up Flurrys.

EDIT: It's 3:AM here. I'm tired. Nights.

[Who8MyRice1]

Bump

[CourierKing]

frostwolf!
helps you chase down those annoying fools, also makes your cannonball easier to hit (flick, autoattack, then cannonball)
lets you cannon into teamfights and not die!
and an extra 25 strength, what's not to like?

[Donn]

frostwolf!
helps you chase down those annoying fools, also makes your cannonball easier to hit (flick, autoattack, then cannonball)
lets you cannon into teamfights and not die!
and an extra 25 strength, what's not to like?

the absurd cost :p

[iGame]

This is the best guide I've ever seen simply because of the pic.

Hilarious.

[CourierKing]

the absurd cost :p

its not THAT expensive. plus, you can flurry creep waves in a flash

[Donn]

its not THAT expensive. plus, you can flurry creep waves in a flash

suppose if you're semi-carrying you can fork up the 5k gold after shrunken lol. its a good item, but is paying 5k really worth it for those benefits? you have plenty of survivability from your BKB and the fact that you're a STR hero, and ghosts would easily allow you to catch up with enemies :\

[Who8MyRice1]

Would you ever get a Frostwulf over Portal Key?
Have you not seen a ninja Panda blinking around with his ninja-ness
ninjaing things up?

[Apto]

So no one considers any mana regen item, aside from power supply and bottle as viable?

[Who8MyRice1]

Because those two are all you need. You're not a Madman constantly spamming spells.
You're a ninja who's either a hit or miss, in this case if you miss you screw yourself over, because all of your skills require positioning and timing, and the long cooldowns.

[Apto]

I had never played Dota, and eventually found Panda to be one of my favorite heroes. Didn't know the proper items for anyone, or that you could even click on enhanced marchers (ghost marchers now) to go faster. lol

Well, I kept running out of mana. I would always have to go back, and it slowed my farming, pushing, and hero killing, but I was noob and didn't appreciate power supply or the bottle. I looked at the items, and eventually decided to try Nome's Wisdom. It had all the mana regen I could ever want, and had some str and agi too. I thought to myself "Oh, that could go well with him".

Long story short, it did! I could spam all of my abilities, go fight people, and during downtime, run through the jungle spamming my abilities on creeps, while pushing lanes. Some of you may recoil in horror, but I actually found it to work fairly well.

Flame on. :D

[LightRain]

I'm not surprised, Nome's is ridic right now
but bottle+runes is sufficient, don't know if Nome's is optimal, would have to try it. you end up overpaying (slightly lol) for the aura if there's another nome's holder, and there usually is (slither, demented, soul reaper, etc.)

[Who8MyRice1]

Hmm Nomes.. That actually might work. But like light_rain says, there's normally another better holder for the item on your team.(As well as the overpaying factor)

[Apto]

Well, try it out and let me know what you think. Honestly, it pays for itself. Ring of the Teacher, then marchers all the way, then nomes, is how I bust out if I use it. 1 pt into flurry at lvl 4, and you can 'spam' it against creeps. No one can out lasthit you.

I have used the bottle + powersupply method though. It works, I can't deny... but if people will get runed axe.... then nomes is the better choice, by far, even with overlap.

[bexbae]

whew thats what i like here everyones helping ;P to build a tut... for each heroes
nice tut dude every details was so clear,, thanks bro,

[Who8MyRice1]

^ your welcome.

[Who8MyRice1]

Bamp.

[Roidrage]

I think Panda is great. But in solo mid? how do you get lasthits without getting chased out of lane. Would love to se some mid replays so i can get a hang of it.

I love dual-lane cus getting first-blood and kills is easy with Panda in dual-lanes.

[Who8MyRice1]

Well, Panda is a really beefy hero, and if you're opponent in mid lane is really harassing you that badly than chances are he's getting damaged by your creeps as well which equates to a MUCH sooner death for him(Level 4+ is EASY for Panda to score kills). Just stand back, and walk in only for last hits. I'll try to get a recent replay of him up ASAP, but it might take awhile as I've started playing WoW again. :P

[Chicolei]

I've seen a lot of good Pandas make Nomes and HotBL on him instead of getting bottle and rushing Shrunken Head. Are they any good? What are your thoughts about this?

[Lollercide]

I always build panda to be a tank and initiator in games, and only get the bottle if there's not enough ganking force early game.

An item I've always found really useful, though unpopular, is the Barbed Armor. I can name a handful of times where I would Ghost Marchers + Cannon Ball into the enemy party, activate Barbed Armor, and watch them explode themselves.

If nothing else, do this when you're playing a pub game against the typical noobish Pyromancer or Witch Slayer, who throws their ultis at everything that moves -- it's hilarious watching them nearly one shot themselves!

[Chicolei]

Perfect. Then they cut their heads off with a butter knife.

[Lollercide]

I think Panda is great. But in solo mid? how do you get lasthits without getting chased out of lane. Would love to se some mid replays so i can get a hang of it.

I love dual-lane cus getting first-blood and kills is easy with Panda in dual-lanes.

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=24740545 is a really good replay of Pandamonium soloing middle. His team loses due to an amazing Ophelia coupled with a good Adromina and farmed Chronos, but you will see a really strong start and a lot of epic cannon balls. (Seriously, this guy makes the most amazing cannon ball hits that it makes me attempt crazy stuff, only to epic fail.)

[Who8MyRice1]

^ Of course, that would be Chu` haha! To bad the replay's outdated though.

[Who8MyRice1]

I've seen a lot of good Pandas make Nomes and HotBL on him instead of getting bottle and rushing Shrunken Head. Are they any good? What are your thoughts about this?

This COULD be an alternative I suppose, though I really wouldn't recommend it. Since you're spending more money total going that build, not to mention that a Panda without Shrunken Head is fail. You'll get stunlocked to death, or will never get your ult off.
I wouldn't recommend it.

[BarneyGumbal]

I used this build the other day, it works great. I was surprised how much damage you can do with just your core.

A question though, what order do you recommend getting your luxuries? If you're not in desperate need of an initiator or armour reduction, do you just grab Behe's Heart then Riftshards?

[Who8MyRice1]

I used this build the other day, it works great. I was surprised how much damage you can do with just your core.

A question though, what order do you recommend getting your luxuries? If you're not in desperate need of an initiator or armour reduction, do you just grab Behe's Heart then Riftshards?

Yea, pretty much.
The build would be Behemoth's Heart(Insanitarius if you're struggling)-->Riftshards-->Game has gone on for FAR to long, stack Doombringers.

[Roidrage]

The fun thing with Panda in a dual-lane, is that you can kill from lvl 2 so easy with flick, stun combo... The partner in lane does not realy mather just that he can do some dmg. But with pebb, pyro, WS its even big chanse to get dubble-kill.
But i will try some mid for the practis.

[ChaLkDust]

No it doesn't make him immune, it simply means that Panda's Flick cannot be stopped once the check for whether the unit is <500 range is made.

Flurry can't bring Pandamonium into the Wall of Mummies, but if Panda is inside the wall he can Flurry outside - don't know the cause of this. I know Flurry offsets Panda but that doesn't explain why he can't Flurry into the Wall.


So if Panda is flicking he can't be OMG MESMERIZED? Or he will be OMG MESMERIZED but successful flick?

"The fun thing with Panda in a dual-lane, is that you can kill from lvl 2 so easy with flick, stun combo... The partner in lane does not realy mather just that he can do some dmg. But with pebb, pyro, WS its even big chanse to get dubble-kill.
But i will try some mid for the practis. "

Cant beat Electrician+Swiftblade

[Roidrage]

Cant beat Electrician+Swiftblade

:accu: or 1 stun in lane you be fine. But against :pand: with any of :pyro::dead::pebb::witc: its harder to counter tbh

[ElementUser]

So if Panda is flicking he can't be OMG MESMERIZED? Or he will be OMG MESMERIZED but successful flick?

The latter.

[HTC_guy]

wow this is a good guide, and all the feedback was pretty useful. Ive always steered clear of :pand: , was a bit intimidated by him... think i will now give him a try! :D

quick question, I followed your link to the replay on :pand: mid... but it says "coming soon" (even when Im logged in) so I was wondering where I could see it?

I was reading a :bloo: guide earlier about soloing mid, but he has feast which would keep his HP up... So Im guessing :pand: would rely heavily on the bottle+PS for HP.

Again, thanks for the good work

Peace

[Who8MyRice1]

wow this is a good guide, and all the feedback was pretty useful. Ive always steered clear of :pand: , was a bit intimidated by him... think i will now give him a try! :D

quick question, I followed your link to the replay on :pand: mid... but it says "coming soon" (even when Im logged in) so I was wondering where I could see it?

I was reading a :bloo: guide earlier about soloing mid, but he has feast which would keep his HP up... So Im guessing :pand: would rely heavily on the bottle+PS for HP.

Again, thanks for the good work

Peace

The replay section is probably bugged if that's the case, if not than I recommend you try using it and make sure you're logged in one more time :P.
And it's a yes and no to your question. Soloing middle as Panda will most likely 9 times out of 10 get you underfarmed creepwise compared to when you would go to a sidelane. Instead, you're relying on scoring kills as early as possible to ferry over your bottle, to further keep up your domination.

A Panda who's higher level than his lane opposition is never going to be pushed around, and if he is then it's just going to mean an even easier kill for you.


EDIT: OH HEY, I just tried the old replays and they still work. Neato. Now I don't have to uppdaaatee them <3

[GuiDoHhh]

Thanks for this guide very usefull... I'll be practicing with panda for now on :D and leave valk behind a bit and start learning to play with other heroes.

[fasteddy]

yo homey,

What about insanitarious

no love for the str gains>?

[Who8MyRice1]

Isn't the item.. in there?..

[fasteddy]

aww **** i was trippin yo

[rembat]

i really dont get what panda's ult does. is it a 4 second stun? or an auto flurry? or what? thanks :D im new here btw.

[Who8MyRice1]

Panda's ult is Succubus's ult, but melee.

[SkillBlade]

Panda's ult is Succubus's ult, but melee.

Dunno why, but when you say this I can't help but imagane Succubus yelling "You're mine now", pulling out a giant frying pan and beating the hell out of the target for 4 sec's :p

On the serious note, very nice guide. Liked teh :LoggersHatchet: referance.

[who8MyRice]

Thank you sir^ for both the compliment and bumping this guide back from the death.

[Emin3m]

i wish this guide could have a more explanation on a build to increase his damage well.

if understand right items giving strength will mostly increase his other spell damage ?

attack modifier do not stack with his spell so does damage that arent attack modifier as exemple : riftshards ? or the sword +18 or 21 dmg *forgot name lawl* it would increase his ultimate damage

i think there is lot wrong panda build out there in pubs

[Cyberguru]

Hey rice, I dont now if this is too much to ask but could you point out some nice places for panda to jump and dodge enemies?

[Klunker]

Also to note, when you Cannon Ball, you can be stopped. Not sure if this is a bug or not. But when you're in the air, you can still be stunned and the spell will stop.

Found this out today. Rather annoying.