Staff of the Apprentice (SotM's child)

[Duey]

Staff of the Apprentice
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http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af307/npoplawski/SotA2-1.jpg

Inspired by Staff of the Master its the Mini version with the same concept.
Instead of increasing the power of the ultimate ability, it increases the power of one of the non-ult spells.

Some random examples (feel free to provide your own :)):
(CAUTION: MAY CONTAIN UNBALANCED EXAMPLES threads about item not the following, these are just to help illustrate the idea.):

:phar:
Hellfire:
Increases impact speed from every 0.75 seconds to every 0.55 seconds (~5 additional impacts)
Increases radius from 300 to 350
credit goes to Spiriax for inspiration

:vind:
Sage's Lore:
Increases damage per second from 20/30/40/50 to 40/50/60/70
(+100/+120/+140/+160 total damage).
Increases mana drained per second from 10/15/20/25 to 16/21/26/31.
(+30/+36/+42/+48 total mana drained)

:glac:
Tundra Blast:
Summons a Snowman Minion at the center of the AoE.
Snowman Minions have 200hp, hit for 55-65, and have a on-attack 10% slow that lasts 3 seconds.
Snowman Minions last 30seconds or until killed.

:hell:
Unholy Shackles:
Also immobilizes the initial target for 0.5 seconds.
Jumps to an additional 0/1/1/2 targets.

:elec:
Electric Shield:
Increases radius of damage aura from 300 to 450.
Increases damage subject to reduction from 50% to 60%.

:succ:
Heartache:
Heals an additional 50/75/100/125 from succubus.
Burns 100 mana of the target.
credit goes to FulgoreSama for inspiration

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Once again, feel free to provide your own examples, jokes and serious ones. If I like them I'll throw them up with these or replace the ones that get too much flame.

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Changelog:
3/6
- readjusted examples for hellbringer (jumps from 0/1/2/3) and voodoo (changed to mojo instead of cursed ground).
- added succubus example.
10/3
-removed voodoo jester example
-added glacius example
10/20
-added pharaoh example

[Aragoth]

I really can't see this implemented... Sorry but they will not take note of this since it will be too hard to balance this item!
Think about the umbalanced heroes, now think about how hard is to balance them twice :S

[Duey]

I really can't see this implemented... Sorry but they will not take note of this since it will be too hard to balance this item!
Think about the umbalanced heroes, now think about how hard is to balance them twice :S

Saw this one coming, understandable. However by that same logic will they never spread SotM beyond the ~20 heroes that can use it now since they haven't had the DotA port balance? I've always wanted to see SotM for some S2 originals, and this just opens doors to new options as to what SotM or another item is capable of.

[Jepp4n]

I like the idea, but it would destroy the game.

[Duey]

I like the idea, but it would destroy the game.

Damn you guise are some downers :(.

[Arlith]

I think this would be amazing.

[metroid112]

sorry no balance

[Scawybea]

ZA WARUDO

[Irsic]

Don't understand why people think it's impossible to balance.

[FulgoreSama]

Don't understand why people think it's impossible to balance.

well ultimates are powerful but lets think about heroes with powerful non ults that nearly equal to an ult.

dark lady silencing blades. think +duration(1/2/2/3) seconds or +base damage(+15%/30%/45%).

succubus heartache. gain an additional 50/100/150/200 HP from use of heartache but no damage output addition

defiler's wave of death. similar to succubus's boost but in damage no life.

the list can go on and on lol, would you want to really try to balance out these sort of things properly without making the item unappealing period?

[Duey]

the list can go on and on lol, would you want to really try to balance out these sort of things properly without making the item unappealing period?

I was thinking about this, but I figured depending on the potency of the buff the recipe cost could be adjusted accordingly.

I gave some powerful examples mostly as attention getters, and gave a recipe cost that I believe would be appropriate.

Maybe it can be toned down a lot, making balancing easier when its not something wildly powerful like buffs to cursed ground and the like. Perhaps just moving it over to mojo and making it heal/deal 10 more per second at all levels? Something like that would just give him a way to go more support oriented, and the item gives him good HP and stats for survivability.

[Blaky039]

T-Up.

This would improve the metagame, because right now INTs (except puppet) fail late game. (except disablers maybe...)

[SLASHER`]

Yes. Could Ophelia command ancients?? (excited :) )

[Kalk5]

may she can command kong?^^

idea is nice but it is to hard to balance, even if it buff only 1 skill for every hero...

i can imagine a general mana cost and/or cd reduce based on percent

[connta]

it would become default item for every hero... same as boots. and it would push bracers down the oblivion of usability among other reasons.

[JONI]

No. Staff of the Master is enough

[Arekayvee]

If this can't be balanced, neither can staff of the master. There's no reason to think this would work one every hero, like all of you assume. You even go as far to give examples and how they would be upgraded, and how it would be overpowered. It changes exactly as much of the game as staff of the master.

[Duey]

If this can't be balanced, neither can staff of the master. There's no reason to think this would work one every hero, like all of you assume. You even go as far to give examples and how they would be upgraded, and how it would be overpowered. It changes exactly as much of the game as staff of the master.

Smart man is smart, thought i would have to post this response, instead here i am bumping my thread.

[SmokeShow]

I would stop bumping and go back to the drawing board because I don't think with a 25-25 vote score this item is going to be made...

[Duey]

bump

[Mih1]

Great!

[babagk]

with elec after u use static grip it on characters should have a movement speed debuff

groped

LOL

[ToxicMonkey]

Sorry but this will improve spamable spells by far too much, making some of them more imbalanced than they already are. I don't see a way to balance it out... Too many variables.

Consider it, you're boosting certain spells that are *GREAT* versus some heroes, to even better levels... It'll completely destroy certain lineups.

Good idea, but not viable. :( I wish it was

[No]

Tbh, you guys are overestimating the potential changes it would bring. The bonuses doesn't have to be something that's clearly broken or even damage, it could be something like in his examples, like reducing mana cost, cooldown, cast time of certains spells (like tort stun, etc), a low increase in damage, a low increase in AoE, longer durations and additional effects like low duration disarms, silences and ministuns. Sure, it would be hard to balance, but nothing some tweaking and careful thinking won't take care of.

[Isin]

i think this itm iz bad idea cuz it make s2 werk 2 hard balcanging...... lulz

[Duey]

Bump, given it some thought and this item has plenty of potential as a way to allow INT to scale into late game, right now the best they could do is something like sheepstick and maybe this would give them an alternative.

Pyro Stun that actually summons a dragon, why not?

Demented Shaman's Entangle dealing more damage, sure.

Witch Slayer Mana Drain also draining life, hell yea.

[Connect]

Voting no cause of balance issues seems a little stupid to me. That's like saying we can never get new heroes cause they would have to be balanced.

I think it's an awesome idea. You got my vote. =)

[Duey]

it would become default item for every hero... same as boots. and it would push bracers down the oblivion of usability among other reasons.

by that same logic Staff of the Master should be default item on every hero... o wait...

Much like Blacksmith wouldn't get SotM, only heroes who actually wanted to get SotA would get it, and I agree that the buffs shouldn't be so powerful that its a required item (cough cough SotM on chipper cough cough). Most of these would be late game augments that would allow INT characters to have the late-game presence they lack

[zajoman]

Imagine the tooltip for this item... It's a nice idea, but very impractical.

[GauntElakor]

Good idea, I like it. BUT...there is always a but
What spells will this work on? First? Second? Last? Any? Changing? Togglable? All at once?
On the balancing issue there is a easy solution:
Generic upgrades: -10% Mana cost, -10% cool down, +10% damage, +10% duration everything depending on the ability being buffed.
These numbers are just placeholders.

[Duey]

Imagine the tooltip for this item... It's a nice idea, but very impractical.

No more impractical than Staff of the Master


Good idea, I like it. BUT...there is always a but
What spells will this work on? First? Second? Last? Any? Changing? Togglable? All at once?
On the balancing issue there is a easy solution:
Generic upgrades: -10% Mana cost, -10% cool down, +10% damage, +10% duration everything depending on the ability being buffed.
These numbers are just placeholders.

The idea is that it would work on any non-ult skill, so first, second, or third. I would like the idea of a togglable item that would change which skill it buffed, but it would only increase the complexity to an unnecessary level. A more generic buff such as the ones you mentioned would be better for easy implementation, but it completely changes the items direction. The idea is that there are ways to buff other skills that have the potential potency of an ultimate, allowing skills to carry into late game that normally wouldnt.

[zajoman]

No more impractical than Staff of the Master

Staff of the Master affects ultimate abilities of several heroes, not ALL abilities of EVERY hero. That's what I'm talking about. For people to understand the effects of such an item, you need to describe it in tooltips, and I see no other way than altering the tooltips for every single ability this item would affect (which would be almost all abilities). That is the problem I see.

Ya, the generic buffs would work nicely (lowered cool downs and mana costs, increased power etc.).

[GauntElakor]

Other than the things zajoman mentions i dont see a problem with this item. I still support you to the max Duey.

[Duey]

Staff of the Master affects ultimate abilities of several heroes, not ALL abilities of EVERY hero. That's what I'm talking about. For people to understand the effects of such an item, you need to describe it in tooltips, and I see no other way than altering the tooltips for every single ability this item would affect (which would be almost all abilities). That is the problem I see.

Ya, the generic buffs would work nicely (lowered cool downs and mana costs, increased power etc.).

Maybe I'm wrong but I think you're missing how the item works.

Not ALL spells on every hero would benefit from this, just select non-ult spells on certain heroes. In the same way Staff of the Master has a section on say... :swif:,s Ult, Staff of the Apprentice could have a section describing its effects on :vind:'s Sage's Lore (but not his Masters Incantation or Glyph of Silence). Just as Swiftblade's Ult says 'This ability can be boosted by Staff of the Master' and then describes its effects, Vindi's Sage's Lore would say 'This ability can be boosted by Staff of the Apprentice' followed by its description of its effects.

Now you also could have meant that the problem is precisely what I just described, adding text to each tooltip this item modifies, which i personally don't see a problem with. Just as SotM only buffs a handful of spells, SotA would also only buff a handful of spells, and mostly those of support-ish heroes. Granted adding this item would take a bit more work than just another +stat boring item, but I wouldn't say its outside of the ability of S2 to implement this.

[Synpanic]

Way to unbalanced and will probably never be, imagine pebbles with this item.

[Duey]

Way to unbalanced and will probably never be, imagine pebbles with this item.

funny enough I thought of this today, thinking 'OMG buffing those spells would be soooooo awesome' (was playing Pebbles)

For this reason though it wouldn't buff pebbles spells, because he's already a strong character without the buff. If you demand it be on him it would be on his passive and so something stupid :P.

[Spiriax]

T-UP! I like this! I can already see some possibilities...
Up Pharaoh's Hellfire so that it gains more range and rapidness so that you're an even better channeling interrupter during teamfights and better at chasing.
Up Chipper's rockets so they fly in a "S"-like, snake-like way, instead of straight forward.
Up Pyromancer's stun so that it simultaneosly summons a ground dragon pet, which you can maneuver around.
Up Slither's spray so that it is more wide, hitting more targets.
Up Forsaken Archer's volley so that you can vector target the arrows, making the volley horizontal or vertical lines instead of just a circle.
OR Up Forsaken Archer's volley so that you can target with much greater range, but for each added range there is more delay, like 0.1 second for 100 range or something.
These are just examples!

Freaking morons here... "That would be too imbalanced!"...
That's like if I made a suggestion for a hero, let's say a bunny hero which jumps around whenever you... "no, that's imbalanced!!!!" ..what do you mean imbalanced? You don't even know what my bunny hero does yet?...

YOU DO NOT VOTE FOR BALANCE, YOU VOTE FOR CONCEPT!
Ok?

About "Imagine Pebbles with this item!", well how would you possibly know how this item would affect Pebbles? Try to think of other things than stun duration and damage. What if this item would add so that whenever Pebbles tosses a hero, he gets healed for 5% of the damage. Would that be imbalanced? No, it wouldn't, but that's just a silly example out of dozens and dozens of possibilities with an item such as this!

[Duey]

T-UP! I like this! I can already see some possibilities...
Up Pharaoh's Hellfire so that it gains more range and rapidness so that you're an even better channeling interrupter during teamfights and better at chasing.
Up Chipper's rockets so they fly in a "S"-like, snake-like way, instead of straight forward.
Up Pyromancer's stun so that it simultaneosly summons a ground dragon pet, which you can maneuver around.
Up Slither's spray so that it is more wide, hitting more targets.
Up Forsaken Archer's volley so that you can vector target the arrows, making the volley horizontal or vertical lines instead of just a circle.
OR Up Forsaken Archer's volley so that you can target with much greater range, but for each added range there is more delay, like 0.1 second for 100 range or something.
These are just examples!

Freaking morons here... "That would be too imbalanced!"...
That's like if I made a suggestion for a hero, let's say a bunny hero which jumps around whenever you... "no, that's imbalanced!!!!" ..what do you mean imbalanced? You don't even know what my bunny hero does yet?...

YOU DO NOT VOTE FOR BALANCE, YOU VOTE FOR CONCEPT!
Ok?

About "Imagine Pebbles with this item!", well how would you possibly know how this item would affect Pebbles? Try to think of other things than stun duration and damage. What if this item would add so that whenever Pebbles tosses a hero, he gets healed for 5% of the damage. Would that be imbalanced? No, it wouldn't, but that's just a silly example out of dozens and dozens of possibilities with an item such as this!

<3 u

also bump

[NuGy]

this item is a nice idea. it might improve early game spells to midd/late game spells =)
for example improves hellbringer's dot instead of +10 increase it to +15 or somethin like that

[Ayevee]

I tried something like this.

[Kraphty]

Scouts vanish: adds tooltip "you failed at choosing a hero, and you failed at building him"

[JimmehCake]

How about adding:
Does not work with SotM?

[jehazy]

Interesting/Fun Idea.
Hard to implement, changes too much, imo.

[dotr]

Not only will you need to decide which skill to boost with this you'll need to balance it for every single hero out there. Its a decent idea but requires way too much effort for any real balance.

[Duey]

this item is a nice idea. it might improve early game spells to midd/late game spells =)
for example improves hellbringer's dot instead of +10 increase it to +15 or somethin like that

Well unless you get very powerful farm early I wouldn't expect this item to have any impact on the early game, mostly mid-late game


How about adding:
Does not work with SotM?

No need for this, its no different than an auto-attack hero getting something after their chosen attack modifier, like a savage mace following a frostburn or something


Not only will you need to decide which skill to boost with this you'll need to balance it for every single hero out there. Its a decent idea but requires way too much effort for any real balance.

I don't understand why people keep using this as an arguement. They currently have Staff of the Master implemented fine, this will just take more time to balance than your average item. However the payoff would be worth it imo, it would really add some depth to heroes that don't scale well into mid-late game.

Right now there are about 22 heroes who SotM effects, about 18 of which are worth getting it on, if they were to implement this item I would hardly expect them to just add the SotA buff to 22 random heroes and just see what happens, it would be a balancing nightmare. Instead they could start off with 3-6 heroes with SotA effecting them, balance accordingly, and, once they like where those skills are at, proceed to adding staff of the apprentice to more heroes as they see fit.

[Normal_guy]

:blac: Fireball: adds a multicast chance of 20000000% TOOOO BAAD IT`S MEE :blac:

[Duey]

:blac: Fireball: adds a multicast chance of 20000000% TOOOO BAAD IT`S MEE :blac:

well buffing something like fireball would make a lot of sense, considering its basically what the hero revolves around, and has a very static value from level 7 and on (excluding multi's). This would allow a blacksmith to continue to have an impact even late game without having to rely on rolling 3's and 4's on the multicasts.

[Rordarok]

I like I like.