Enforcing Respect?

[RoosterJuice]

The DotA / Warcraft 3 community is known for how incredibly rude, ignorant and unsportsman like it's players are. Especially to noobs.

I have played almost every RTS under the sun and trash talking is one thing, but it seems to be taken to the extreme in DOTA, and so far Newerth as well.

I am a big boy, who's been playing online games since QuakeWorld. I have no problems rising above trash talk, but I find there is NO community in DOTA for people who are friendly to each other and would like gaming to be carried out more like a sport, than a bar fight.

Sportsmanship Rating - During a game or at the end, players can mark other players as a good sport. Like psr and disconnects, games could be created with sportsmanship requirements. So the idea is, instead of a punishment system, like "lodging a compaint" against someone for ignorance, you are rewarding good sports. Positive reenforcement. Sportsmanship points could be used for other things aswell, like a special icon that represents that you are a good sport. Someone who wants to build this great community, not destroy it.

This system would not penalize people, it would simply create a sub community of players who want a positive grown up experience, rather than one filled with teenaged angst.

[Krangry]

Look for noob only titles, unfortunately this game is very unforgiving, andso are the players. Also look into the hon mentoring program where you can get paired with a better player, that way you can learn the ropes

[RoosterJuice]

Krangy, I appreciate the advice.

I should have specified that the post was not about being a noob, even at high level play there is copius amounts of unacceptable player conduct. Telling other players you are going to "rape their family" and calling them racial slurs is damaging to the community in my opinion. Or at the very least, there should be a mechanism in place to allow players to not play with people like that.

The gaming community has really turned into a pile of garbage in the last couple years, DotA and Xbox live leading the charge as the worst communities around. S2 Games is known for taking community feedback seriously, which is why I'm posting this. I guess the question is, am I the only one who feels this way?

[Shinobin]

mmomimic,

Yes join a noob game should fix that problem 100% how about fix your attitude towards other human beings and not talk like a computerized robot.

NOOB NOOB MOKAY QQMORE. /wrist /qqmore

Proper engrish please?

[Dread_Knight]

This sounds really stupid, man up. We know the DotA / HoN community's attitude is self defeating but I really don't think that anyone should waste time coding an extra system for this. I'm not trying to be rude but, grow a pair.

Fair enough, people are angry with noobs and it's not their fault that they're bad but...Really, being nice to noobs in about 90% of situations just doesn't work. For example the last 3 games I've played in there were 1 or 2 noobs in each and they just fed and lost the game, fair enough. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't unresponsive, clueless and sometimes rude. It's a two way street and experienced and unexperienced players should meet in the middle.


I've already got a lot of people on my banlist who are just stupidly offensive for no real reason and I deal with it, I don't really understand why you can't do the same...There are a lot of options for noobs like yourself to get better, one stated by the Moderator in the previous post but there aren't many people who actually scope out a game's community and forums before going in for noob friendly tips.

In any online community you will find *******s, granted you will find that more often than not a game contains more than just 1 little 12 year old kid who has a mouth like a 30 year old sailor, but I don't see what you hope to accomplish with this "Sportsmanship" program..If you don't like someone, ban them.

[/Banlist Add <Name> <Reason>] for reference.

P.S. Opening a thread regarding manners then proceeding to call all DotA / Wc3 players "ignorant" doesn't really serve your point.

Edit: I know you said this wasn't about noobs but here's a thread for if you are: [HowTo] Make newbie friendly games (and avoid those which aren't) (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=8279). Also, take a look at the Premuim Guides forum..I think there's a couple of noob helper guides.

[Styvis]

I'd really like to see this. Rewarding people to act like real persons instead of someone from Idiocracy would make games more enjoyable.

[Rarykos]

If HoN players make HoN community and the most of HoN players are a part of DotA community.

S2 Games is known for taking community feedback seriously
Dont you think everything is perfect?

Noobs in non-noobs games is a different matter :P The only offensive noobs ive seen were dota players who just started hon and were flaming how much heroes are stupid.
But excessive use of insults is usually seen in average games with people about 1500psr. Theyre angry because theyre angry, you cant help stupid people :(

[BodyHammer]

While the general attitude of the players is indeed crap, I can't believe you would actually want to impose limitations on how people can interact with each other because of the things they are free to say. That's insane to me. Not to mention, NO type of public ranking of other players is ever a good idea. It's highly abused, and positive ranking means a friendly circle jerk more than a real reflection of the player himself.

The ends do not justify the means in this case.

[livmew]

While the general attitude of the players is indeed crap, I can't believe you would actually want to impose limitations on how people can interact with each other because of the things they are free to say. That's insane to me. Not to mention, NO type of public ranking of other players is ever a good idea. It's highly abused, and positive ranking means a friendly circle jerk more than a real reflection of the player himself.

The ends do not justify the means in this case.

*Inflates your epeen rating by marking good sport and +1'ing*

[RoosterJuice]

While the general attitude of the players is indeed crap, I can't believe you would actually want to impose limitations on how people can interact with each other because of the things they are free to say. That's insane to me. Not to mention, NO type of public ranking of other players is ever a good idea. It's highly abused, and positive ranking means a friendly circle jerk more than a real reflection of the player himself.

The ends do not justify the means in this case.

This is why I suggested a positive reenforcement program, there is no way to mark another player in a negative way. Furthermore, you would not mark a disrespectful person as a good sport. So I unfortunately have to disagree with you saying it is not possible to create a player driven system that isn't abusable.



This sounds really stupid, man up. We know the DotA / HoN community's attitude is self defeating but I really don't think that anyone should waste time coding an extra system for this. I'm not trying to be rude but, grow a pair.

I have a pair. It doesn't hurt my feelings to get trash talked, I just find it makes me lose respect for the intelligence of the community. A lot of people play online games for the social aspect of gaming. In DotA and Newerth, those aspects are nearly non existent, outside your friends list.

Its not that the community pisses me off... its that it doesn't ADD anything AT ALL, and there is no possible way for a person to have a positive PLAYER experience multiple games in a row. Which means that people only play the game for competition.

DotA is one of the hardest games on earth to master, and it can take years and years. While the tactics are not over complex, the knowledge required is massive compared most games. DotA players are some of the smartest gamers on earth, yet the experience is like a trip to the local trailer park. Ironic.

[jay`t]

I agree that the community is pretty harsh at best, but honestly, I'd rather deal it as it is than try to politicize every map by acting super sweet to my teammates.

[BodyHammer]

This is why I suggested a positive reenforcement program, there is no way to mark another player in a negative way. Furthermore, you would not mark a disrespectful person as a good sport. So I unfortunately have to disagree with you saying it is not possible to create a player driven system that isn't abusable.


And I see what you are saying, however:

1-You proposed a filter based on this stat. That very clearly affects players in a negative way.

2-I already explained that it is abusable, and it has been in every game it has been utilized in. People vote up friends, clanmates, and just otherwise people who are willing to trade a "vote up" for one another.

It makes the system useless.

[Hasteo]

Defineitly a harsh community.. but I've learned to live with it since coming over to DotA. Just the other day some guy was like "STOP FEEDING!" and I just got to my second death in 20min of play.. I was like wtf?

[fmlftw]

Your proposal to make it a +vote, positive system is smart, considering an option to downvote someone would easily be abused, but what's the point if the whole system is going to be positive?

If a person plays 100 games and is a good sportsman in 20 of them, and a bad sportsman in the other 80, he would have a positive 20, right? Well how are you supposed to know if the people from the eighty games just didn't vote, or if they thought he was a bad sport?

Either way, it was an idea with good intentions, but it does nothing to solve the problem.

[RoosterJuice]

And I see what you are saying, however:

1-You proposed a filter based on this stat. That very clearly affects players in a negative way.

2-I already explained that it is abusable, and it has been in every game it has been utilized in. People vote up friends, clanmates, and just otherwise people who are willing to trade a "vote up" for one another.

It makes the system useless.

Because it is abusable in previous failed attempts doesn't mean there isn't a solution. Thats like saying "previous attempts at an electric car have been failures, so therefore electric cars dont work". Each person could vote their team mates as many times as they want, but only the first one counts. Trading votes is not an issue, and in fact it would be promoted! Trading votes would be like a handshake after a game of pool. In fact, the system could be a handshake system itself: "Player X requests a handshake". That agreement, although virtual, could have a profound effect on the community. It certainly does in sports.

I guess I'm more talking about ways to enhance the comradary with other players who are not in your clan / friends list.

[fmlftw]

What you wrote seems sensible enough, but let's look at it from a different angle.

You started a topic trying to find a solution to bad manners and people being poor sports. What you're now talking about doesn't solve that in the least.

With downvotes, the system is abusable. Without downvotes, the system is pointless.

Not to be a downer, but this is a lose/lose and won't be worth the effort the programmers will have to take to make this happen.

[RoosterJuice]

Not to be a downer, but this is a lose/lose and won't be worth the effort the programmers will have to take to make this happen.


Seems that every suggestion thread revolves around people saying every idea is a waste of the developer's time. While I agree at this point there may be bigger fish to fry, I do think it could be considered a valid issue to the developers as they are removing a market of people who want to be treated like human beings.

Just brainstorming.
Another way you could do it, is every week each player is alotted GG (geekgold), which they may spend on other players. Players could make a 1 time donation to another player (i cannot donate GG to my friends / clanmates every game). GG possibly could be use to purchase aesthetic upgrades (as discussed in other threads) / non-player pets / unlocked special items in the stores (would require balancing)

[fmlftw]

Seems that every suggestion thread revolves around people saying every idea is a waste of the developer's time. While I agree at this point there may be bigger fish to fry, I do think it could be considered a valid issue to the developers as they are removing a market of people who want to be treated like human beings.

Just brainstorming.
Another way you could do it, is every week each player is alotted GG (geekgold), which they may spend on other players. Players could make a 1 time donation to another player (i cannot donate GG to my friends / clanmates every game). GG possibly could be use to purchase aesthetic upgrades (as discussed in other threads) / non-player pets / unlocked special items in the stores (would require balancing)

Well I didn't mean it like that, and I don't mean to insult your suggestion, because I think it would be a great suggestion if not for the complications involved.

The thing is, even when you ignore the fact that it might not be the most efficient use of a developer's time, it still doesn't solve the issue you put forth.

Bringing up that system seems viable if a good system of reward can be worked out though.

[paranoidray]

i second a sportsmanship rating

[Pilch]

jog on

[R1C3]

Trash-talking: "If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War.
Thus trash-talking is a valid strategy.

[Inertia]

What would help is being able to publish games only to private channels and a higher limit on channel members.

[Shao]

Most gaming communities are like this, get used to it or don't play video games. Brush the insults off and move forward, aka grow up.

[Flaming_moe]

Most gaming communities are like this, get used to it or don't play video games. Brush the insults off and move forward, aka grow up.

Most gaming communities are NOT like this. There are trash talkers and poor sports in almost every game I have played, but this community takes the cake.
Never Have I played in a community were being a poor sport is not only allowed but the majority of the community DEFENDS it.

I have posted a similar thread a while back but there is no constructive feedback. People post "won't work" but then provide absolutely no solution to the problem. And there is a problem don't be in denial. There have been one or two of these posts on the forums every day since i have been a member. It have only been a member for a week but that paints a very terrible picture of this "community."

This community is brutally harsh and I find that instead of expanding profits S2 will have to deal with a shrinking customer base, due to the immaturity of it's community.

And to the dude that said
no offense but grow a pair of ballsSaying no offense doesn't make it OK to insult someone, especially seeing as you wrote that comment so the person would take offense to it. That is the kind of garbage this community is full of and there needs to be something done about it.

[Veon]

A way to rate players would be VERY nice.

[Dread_Knight]

Edit: You know what, I'm not going to bother.

[Crosis]

These ideas and the people who propose them are getting old fast (thread = http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=7752 ), grow up internet words wont kill you, unless you have a mental problem. A karma/Sportsmanship system will never work in this type of game. Simple as that.

You have ignore/banlist.

/Thread over.

[IntoDarkness]

Hmm. Interesting topic. I actually enjoy the idea of finding out a persons sportmanship rating such as karma in Savage 2 which is S2 Games last title. It tells you alot about the people in game and who you might want to or not to play with. The problem with karma in a game like dota is people who thought he was a total noob and others of the like can blacklist you by giving you bad ratings.

I think a system could be worked out where they have a sportsmanship rating. But, it will limit gameplay for the weaker players more than the dota "pros". Also, I noticed in one of the first posts someone argued the topic creator stated all in dota were ignorant. He only stated that the community is known for the ignorant and rude which as someone new to dota and HoN I am noticing more and more.

[Synackaon]

I see a lot of negative Nancy's here and a few people trying to discuss it.

"Quoting Sun-Tzu automatically lends credence to what your say, even if you are defending bad behavior" -- Sun-Tzu.

Seriously, has it gotten this bad that people are _honestly_ quoting Sun-Tzu for an (eventually public) game?

+1 for the karma op. Anything can be abused, but somethings can be abused more than others. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

[ihaveaknife]

Good idea in theory but it wouldn't work. Because people are sore losers like you mentioned they may not trash talk but they would rank peoples trash talk rating down just because they lost. You forget how childish this community is and grading each other is certainly not going to help.

[Synackaon]

Good idea in theory but it wouldn't work. Because people are sore losers like you mentioned they may not trash talk but they would rank peoples trash talk rating down just because they lost. You forget how childish this community is and grading each other is certainly not going to help.

I believe his idea would only show your positive votes. Now assuming (like Savage 2's karma) that you have one vote per player, it stands to reason that a lot of people will have missing karma because someone else was a better player. Doesn't mean they are awful at all, just is a lack of points.

[Shao]

Most gaming communities are NOT like this. There are trash talkers and poor sports in almost every game I have played, but this community takes the cake.
Never Have I played in a community were being a poor sport is not only allowed but the majority of the community DEFENDS it.

You are clearly misinformed. Remove the protective helmet and dive into more communities.

[Synackaon]

You are clearly misinformed. Remove the protective helmet and dive into more communities.

We have anecdotal evidence versus anecdotal evidence. Either way, it is useless on making a really good argument. That said, I disagree, I have been in plenty of gaming communities which were not nearly as vitriolic as this one is. Sure, people would swear every now and then, but it was never of the "*****nigga gonna murder ur family ho"-type. Probably because jerks like that had better things to troll or were banned on site. ;)

[RoosterJuice]

You are clearly misinformed. Remove the protective helmet and dive into more communities.
Other gaming communities do not even hold a candle to this one. This and Xbox live are bar none the worst gaming communities on the internet. BY FAR. Ever heard the terms GL, HF, GG? Probably not in a DOTA or HON game. These are all terms used in other respectable communities, such as Company of Heroes.


Trash-talking:"If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War.
Most players don't have choleric tempers. People with tempers are horrible at games like HON, which require patience. The second part of that quote actually counters your own argument as insulting people and calling any person who dies first a noob ARE arrogant comments, not weak. I'm not sure what this quote is trying to portray.

The only people who seem to be discounting the idea are also flaming and insulting people like Shao. I'm not suggesting that guys like you are excluded Shao, I'm just saying as a player, I should have a right not to play with or against you. I would personally like to see a mechanism in place that gives me some idea of what kind of person you are.

[Baggiez]

Rooster, I know this is a suggestion forum, but let's be frank, this won't be implemented.

You have /ignore if you don't like what someone is saying to you.

Unless you have multiple accounts, a quick check of your stats shows me that I can count the number of games you've played on one hand. And in these games, you've fed pretty badly. Now, I'm not critising you for being bad, but it looks to me like you're a new player that's come in, died a lot and got flamed by his teammates. So what? If it bothers you THAT much then put them on ignore, don't waste the developers time.

[RoosterJuice]

Now, I'm not critising you for being bad, but it looks to me like you're a new player that's come in, died a lot and got flamed by his teammates. So what? If it bothers you THAT much then put them on ignore, don't waste the developers time.
Baggiez, thanx for your honest opinion on the matter.

I've said from the beginning that i'm new. I've played Savage 2 for a while, which had a sportsmanship system, which was also developed by S2 Games. Since they've already implemented a system that rewards sportsmanship in another game, I think it is rather silly of you to flat out say that the system will not be implemented. Because they have experience implementing such a system, It would be quite simple for them to add. Many people in this thread have agreed that the community is poor, and would like to see some kind of mechanic to promote good sportsmanship.

This forum is meant for brainstorming, not flaming. So please either post constructive criticism.

[Kaushal]

Eh... I would just stick to using the /ignore function if someone is being particularly virulent.

Usually, I try to humor the people who attempt to flame me, and, for the most part, they calm down and we continue to play the game.

[Kaidyn]

Trash-talking:"If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War.
Thus trash-talking is a valid strategy.


someone doesn't know his Sun Tzu passages. or is just lacking reading comprehension. the periods mean it is a different sentence / idea.

"If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him."
In military terms (because The Art of War is a military treatise, not on how to play Chinese checkers or any other game) this means that if you know the opposing general is quick to anger, use quick hit and runs with some of your troops. Harry his troops from the flanks or launch false attacks on his army. This would usually be used to either get his army to break ( as he tries to go separate ways to chase down the various components of your army ), to get them to produce their weaker flank to your main force when they wheel their army to face the flanking forces, or to get them to follow a false force into an encirclement strategy. In military terms, irritate doesn't mean hurl insults. That would probably end with the general that went close enough to insult the other force going to an early grave. Absolutely nothing in here about trash talking.

"Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant."
And here, Sun Tzu basically tells you that trash talking is a bad state to be in. This is more of baiting tactics, but this time instead of an opponent quick to anger, you go against an enemy that thinks he is great ( a trash talker, for example ).

So, yeah, as a Far Eastern historian, could I please ask you to stop misinterpreting one of the greatest military treatises to ever be made to try to make your point about being a moron in a video game? Please?

[Snicla]

Well I didn't mean it like that, and I don't mean to insult your suggestion, because I think it would be a great suggestion if not for the complications involved.

The thing is, even when you ignore the fact that it might not be the most efficient use of a developer's time, it still doesn't solve the issue you put forth.

Bringing up that system seems viable if a good system of reward can be worked out though.

And then you'll have friends feeding each other gold, and so on and so forth. Either learn to live with the trash talk or unplug your internet.