Poll - New camera zoom limit

[Techies]

Ok gonna try something, atm you can zoom out more than is allowed currently via the folowing console command.

To open the console press ctrl + F8
To close it press ctrl + F8 again

Here's the console command:
g_CamDistanceMax 1650

The default limit for the camera atm is 1650.
The maximum amount you can zoom before things start to glitch is around 2300.

So try this out and then vote for the value you think would be the best new limit for the camera.

Examples.

1650
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1650.jpg (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1650.jpg)
1700
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1700.jpg (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1700.jpg)
1750
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1750.jpg (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1750.jpg)
1800
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1800.jpg (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1800.jpg)
1850
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1850.jpg
1900
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b1900.jpg
2000
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b2000.jpg (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b2000.jpg)
2100
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b2100.jpg (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh305/HideInLight/b2100.jpg)

[Bard]

I'm quite comfortable with 2100, so I voted that, even if sometimes I think it could be a bit too much. I wouldn't go lower than 1900-ish though.

[Vadi]

Do keep in mind that its a todo to lock this. So speak up now...

[Slormer]

I play 2300, used to play 1800 with 70ish FOV until they locked that. I'd like to not have to input the command at the beginning of every game though. Seems like startup.cfg is busted. I even tried adding an autoexec config file, but I guess it doesn't execute that at the beginning of games either.

[Techies]

I play 2300, used to play 1800 with 70ish FOV until they locked that. I'd like to not have to input the command at the beginning of every game though. Seems like startup.cfg is busted. I even tried adding an autoexec config file, but I guess it doesn't execute that at the beginning of games either.

How big is your monitor, things are way to small on my 17 inch at that height.

[Slormer]

15.4 inch Laptop screen, 1280x800 resolution. Seems like it makes it how I played War3.

[Marijuana]

Can someone screenshot 2100?

[g0dy]

the fog is still there ... dont see why we should stay limited in a crap zoom camera as the current one ...

[Barter]

I play with 2200, would be nice if could go a little farther, like 2400, but 2100-2200 is WAY better than the default.

[Scrotes]

I play at 2300.

[Barter]

Default:
http://imgur.com/tJfUv.jpg

2100:
http://imgur.com/qCBbc.jpg

[Tythel]

Yeah I voted for 2000, but i wouldn't mind 2100 either. How close the zoom is ATM can be kind of frusterating, and was definitely the first thing I noticed when I started playing. Even changing the resolution doesn't make a difference.

[Vinthian]

2100 would ruin a lot of games and make the game dull for gankers... even with fog.

Try to get away with as much as you can though, so around 1800-2000 is fine!

[Barter]

2100 would ruin a lot of games and make the game dull for gankers... even with fog.

Try to get away with as much as you can though, so around 1800-2000 is fine!

How would it ruin it, it barely gives you more ground you can see, it gives what, 100 distance in each direction?
And it feels so much better than having your face forced on the ground.


And for the people saying that like this is ok or something, have you tried playing Age of Empires 2 there days? You can see like a building per screen, we don't use 15' monitors anymore people, things evolve, accept it.
No one is saying we should be able to see the whole map in one screen, we just want to be able to zoom out a little more. We don't want our heroes taking half our screens, we bought bigger monitors for a ****ing reason.

[BlacRyu]

Using a custom camera tool eventually got me temp banned from b.net, but it was quite frustrating having it feel so cramped especially on a large monitor. I can stand it a little better on HoN, but still sometimes it can get pretty annoying. when you cant see both your hero and see the enemy hero if you're both ranged. and on a vertical lane. I think even just 1800 would be 10 times better than what we have now.

[FiNGERS]

1750 at the most. People who want 2100+ don't know the game. Whether you choose to believe it or not, restricting your view DOES impact gameplay and competitiveness. Making it more 'comfortable' to play is not worth losing something so much a part of this game. (It's been like this since day 1, you can't argue that point).

[Somebody]

I used 2100, and when I went back to Dota I was not used to the camera at all, it seemed so small. If you want a dota experience then yeah, 2100 might be too much, but if you want to get a better view of things then as far as you can make it.

[Techies]

Anything above 1900 feels overkill to me. Wish you could change to fov again even if it only had +10 fov to play with.

[Techies]

Could it be argued that keeping the zoom at it's current level reduces the effectiveness of devourer and valkyrie too much? They were designed with dota's camera in mind, where HoN is much more zoomed in as proven in another thread. At least more of the level is visible in dota.

[Karrax]

Aww keep it as it is please. Your supposed to use the minimap!

[Gage]

Having just tested both the default and 2100/2300 camera distances, I must say it was much easier for my friend to follow what was going on.

For all those interested in the competitive side of the game, never forget that ideally you want the audience to be able to grasp what is going on and keep them interested. Being able to see a larger area is far more conducive for this task.

And before you say DotA was designed based on the view distance, never forget it was always a limit of the war3 engine. Just please look at the 2 screen shots someone posted above, it is not a satellite camera, it just gives viewers a more "natural" view.

As it stands by default, the camera feels artificially zoomed and almost makes it feel like tunnel vision.

Faithful DotA players, it is not game breaking, look at the screen shots, it won't make pubstomping any harder for you, it just looks better. Pure and simple.

[FZeroRacer]

It IS slightly gamebreaking because that extra bit of screen will allow you to spot oncoming ganks much sooner and indeed it weakens heroes like Devourer a bit.

Sure it was a limitation of Warcraft 3, but DoTA was designed and balanced around that limitation. HoN, being a near clone of DoTA, might be free of limitations, but changing those psuedo-limitations around can cause certain issues to crop up. To give somewhat of an example, it would be like increasing the scope size of a sniper rifle in an FPS.

I think S2 has said that they want to keep the camera at the same level.

[Gage]

I still believe the benefit the crowd would get from a slightly better camera angle greatly outweighs a small balance deficit to a very small percentage of heroes.

This would not affect pro-players. Honestly, if you are pushing a tower with your team and a hero comes from behind you, are you really going to be caught unaware? Most pro players are watching the minimap most of the time anyway.

People will always resist change, and usually it's for a good reason. I just can't see why in this case.

The only people who would logically not like this change, are the pubstompers who only like playing games where they completely dominate lesser skilled players (the ones where you attack them from behind and they only realise when their health bar is in the red). And granted yes, a slightly larger view will give these newbies perhaps a second or two more time to react.

But screw them, this game is already so easy to learn why should we make it even easier for new players to learn it? (*this is sarcasm*)

This change would benefit the game, the pro circuits that want crowds to watch games, the new players to feel a bit more comfortable and all the people that play with large monitors.

Vote for change!

[Techies]

so far only 13% wants the camera to stay as is...Need more votes though

[Schneider]

Everyone should play with the same zoom, or at least lock the console-zooming so people can only use the scroll-zoom. It is unfair that some people can see more.

[Techies]

Everyone should play with the same zoom, or at least lock the console-zooming so people can only use the scroll-zoom. It is unfair that some people can see more.

That's why the zoom level needs to be increased so that it can be locked. Almost everyone is already playing with the camera zoomed out more that usual.

[Pro]

Thanks so much for this command, didnt know you could change the zoom.
Zooming out plays alot easier, i can see far more basicly its just better overview. Cheers!

[Robbo]

It won't change gameplay if you make it so you can zoom out more. A good player will see the gank regardless of the zoom. The reason we need zoom is because it feels so crap zoomed in so far. Not to mention you have to spend the whole freaking game scrolling everywhere when you only move 2 steps!

2100!

[Gage]

Only 12.5% don't want it to change?

Need more votes to confirm!

[Malle1]

From the images posted by Barter, I would agree that 2100 seems good and it is what I will vote.

For those who want an audience to see more of what is going on, it shouldn't be impossible to let spectators/referees zoom further out than players.

[Satan666]

As some1 stated nicely in another thread, this game doesn't have tanks/healers etc, instead consists of carries, initiators, supports and gankers. If we get most the heroes from dota this will be almost 100 heroes separated into those 4 types. By increasing camera with goal to make it easy to see gank, without using allready available tools like minimap, u kill 1/4th of all heroes that are designed to be gankers for start. Not to mention that this game is completly focused around ganking: avoiding ganks, and gank others. comments like "giving more time to react to gank" can easly turn into "remove fog of war so no1 can be ganked anymore". Ganking has to be available in same amount as in dota, as one of important tools of getting to victory. Lane Farming for ever and ever and ever is not what makes it fun. This game has to have steep learning curve as dota, cause that's what makes it fun when u begin to master it.

Ah and pudge imo won't suffer that much, but will still have reduced value, from this cause most hooks are from fog of war.

This is supposed to be advanced version of DotA, not some brainless no fun mod that u can master in 5 hours like thousands that already failed for War3 engine.

[Techies]

As some1 stated nicely in another thread, this game doesn't have tanks/healers etc, instead consists of carries, initiators, supports and gankers. If we get most the heroes from dota this will be almost 100 heroes separated into those 4 types. By increasing camera with goal to make it easy to see gank, without using allready available tools like minimap, u kill 1/4th of all heroes that are designed to be gankers for start. Not to mention that this game is completly focused around ganking: avoiding ganks, and gank others. comments like "giving more time to react to gank" can easly turn into "remove fog of war so no1 can be ganked anymore". Ganking has to be available in same amount as in dota, as one of important tools of getting to victory. Lane Farming for ever and ever and ever is not what makes it fun. This game has to have steep learning curve as dota, cause that's what makes it fun when u begin to master it.

Ah and pudge imo won't suffer that much, but will still have reduced value, from this cause most hooks are from fog of war.

This is supposed to be advanced version of DotA, not some brainless no fun mod that u can master in 5 hours like thousands that already failed for War3 engine.

From my experience it does the exact opposite, I find ganking a whole easier since more of the environment is visible for easier navigation. Also allows you concentrate more on the action and take oppurtunities you would never of noticed when you were busy scrolling around.

That and it's easier to see what your alies are doing making ganking far more effective too.

[Techies]

Stil think 2100 is a bit overkill though...

[Gage]

It really isn't that big a difference. It just looks better. Also, I recall reading a thread a long time ago that Icefrog wanted a more zoomed out look, only that it didnt work well with the war3 engine.

So meh.

[Otherside]

people seem to be forgetting fog of war when complaining about gank spotting etc

i vote for 2100

[AzgoreOrdrin]

ye not a bad change with the average monitor being 22' or 24' so a good thing and true the fog is there for gangs u watch the minimap all the time anyway

I use 2100 for quite a while. And I feel quite fond of it.

I think the default is far too zoomed up. 1900-2000 would also be fine. My vote thou goes for 2100.

[Techies]

If you have the camera zoomed in too much, that means you must make use of the minimap to identify a player by memory of what color he was instead of seeing him visually. That puts colorblind people at a huge disadvantage.

[BobSacamano]

the max zoom should be the default.

[Shino]

1750 at the most. People who want 2100+ don't know the game. Whether you choose to believe it or not, restricting your view DOES impact gameplay and competitiveness. Making it more 'comfortable' to play is not worth losing something so much a part of this game. (It's been like this since day 1, you can't argue that point).

TOTALLY YEAH HARDCORE! LOCK IT CLOSER SO THOSE CUNTS WITH 23"-30" SCREENS CANT SEE **** YEAH! THEN WE SHALL TOTALLY SEE HOW GOOD THEY ARE OMG YEAH!

People with this argument have 17"-19" screens and think it would be unfair if those of us who decided to spend money on a bigger screen actually benefit from our investment. We would see barely more than anyone else, everyone would have the option to zoom in further or zoom to the current zoom level. Some of us have a very hard time playing as the interface seems squashed on our screens. Stop being such a selfish prat.

[BobSacamano]

TOTALLY YEAH HARDCORE! LOCK IT CLOSER SO THOSE CUNTS WITH 23"-30" SCREENS CANT SEE **** YEAH! THEN WE SHALL TOTALLY SEE HOW GOOD THEY ARE OMG YEAH!

People with this argument have 17"-19" screens and think it would be unfair if those of us who decided to spend money on a bigger screen actually benefit from our investment. We would see barely more than anyone else, everyone would have the option to zoom in further or zoom to the current zoom level. Some of us have a very hard time playing as the interface seems squashed on our screens. Stop being such a selfish prat.
I have a 27'' monitor and I think that increasing the zoom past the default is a huge imbalance in the gameplay.

Buy glasses

[Techies]

TOTALLY YEAH HARDCORE! LOCK IT CLOSER SO THOSE CUNTS WITH 23"-30" SCREENS CANT SEE **** YEAH! THEN WE SHALL TOTALLY SEE HOW GOOD THEY ARE OMG YEAH!

People with this argument have 17"-19" screens and think it would be unfair if those of us who decided to spend money on a bigger screen actually benefit from our investment. We would see barely more than anyone else, everyone would have the option to zoom in further or zoom to the current zoom level. Some of us have a very hard time playing as the interface seems squashed on our screens. Stop being such a selfish prat.

19" widescreen monitors see exactly the same as 23"
Everything just looks bigger on the 23"

I can see more vertically on my 17" non widescreen monitor then I can see on a 23"

[Bard]

monitor size doesn't really have anything to do with this issue.
the "competitive" aspect everyone seems to like tossing around has even less to with this:
- Fog is still there
- If it's out of the fog, you see it on the minimap, if you see the color on the minimap you know what hero it is.
- If you're even a half-skilled player, from that you'd be able to get your info, even if your cam is zoomed to check how the light reflects on the pond in your base.

So, what would making the zoom go further away change? Well, if any skilled player would be able to see the same things from the minimap (except casting animations), that more or leaves out the newbies. So it would be harder for some self-called pro to go and stomp newbs on pubs.

On the other hand it would make a bit of difference when the battle is already on, being able too see more ground on screen, and thus hp, mana, casting anymations, etc of everyone on map would give any player a lot more of info to consider and process, thus enabling everyone to come out with better tactics and reactions, hopefully making battles more challenging and rewarding.

Sure, maybe a bigger zoom will cause some tactics to change and for a while it will be confusing, but I'm quite sure that after a while they'll be fine tuned again.

[EnragedCamel]

1750 at the most. People who want 2100+ don't know the game. Whether you choose to believe it or not, restricting your view DOES impact gameplay and competitiveness. Making it more 'comfortable' to play is not worth losing something so much a part of this game. (It's been like this since day 1, you can't argue that point).

Not everyone wants an exact DOTA experience.

They added new maps, new heroes, and changed some existing ones. This clearly shows that they are willing to step away from being a 100% replica of DOTA.

Unlimited camera zoom should be an option. You should be able to turn it off for competitive games (so that it gives you the "DOTA feel" that you think is so important), but this is the 21st century. Games need to evolve with technology.

[Muz]

I vote for no higher than 1700. Anything over that is pretty silly and besides, fog of war anyone?

[EnragedCamel]

I don't get the argument about ganking. The game already gives you PLENTY of mechanisms to make ganking very easy. Trees and cliffs obscure vision, and there are items that give you invisibility and blink. Why must limited camera zoom be a part of this arsenal?

Why is the onus on the gankee to not get ganked, rather than on the ganker to find more creative ways to gank?

[Volshok]

1650 Max for Players
3500 Max for Spectators /Refs

[Bard]

I don't get the argument about ganking. The game already gives you PLENTY of mechanisms to make ganking very easy. Trees and cliffs obscure vision, and there are items that give you invisibility and blink. Why must limited camera zoom be a part of this arsenal?

Why is the onus on the gankee to not get ganked, rather than on the ganker to find more creative ways to gank?

at least someone gets it

[Barter]

I vote for no higher than 1700. Anything over that is pretty silly and besides, fog of war anyone?
You know, seeing from a little (yes very little if you see the screenshots from 1650 and 2100) wont reveal more fog than normal.

[OverloadUT]

I don't get the argument about ganking. The game already gives you PLENTY of mechanisms to make ganking very easy. Trees and cliffs obscure vision, and there are items that give you invisibility and blink. Why must limited camera zoom be a part of this arsenal?

Why is the onus on the gankee to not get ganked, rather than on the ganker to find more creative ways to gank?

100% agreed. Let the game mechanics dictate the depth and strategy, not how quickly someone can manipulate the interface.

I see it as no different than making it so you have to click on a skill 20 times quickly before you can use it, and then calling it a skill you have to develop. Or requiring the user to triple right click to move their hero somewhere. It's stupid and just makes it harder to control your hero.

It's a sign of bad game design if you rely on the difficulty in using the interface to create depth. The interface should be as transparent and quick to use and read as possible, and the strategy should come from how best to work with the mechanics like fog and line of sight and all of the other things that makes this such an interesting and tactical game.

[Techies]

100% agreed. Let the game mechanics dictate the depth and strategy, not how quickly someone can manipulate the interface.

I see it as no different than making it so you have to click on a skill 20 times quickly before you can use it, and then calling it a skill you have to develop. Or requiring the user to triple right click to move their hero somewhere. It's stupid and just makes it harder to control your hero.

It's a sign of bad game design if you rely on the difficulty in using the interface to create depth. The interface should be as transparent and quick to use and read as possible, and the strategy should come from how best to work with the mechanics like fog and line of sight and all of the other things that makes this such an interesting and tactical game.

Well said

[Barter]

It's a sign of bad game design if you rely on the difficulty in using the interface to create depth. The interface should be as transparent and quick to use and read as possible, and the strategy should come from how best to work with the mechanics like fog and line of sight and all of the other things that makes this such an interesting and tactical game.
QFT, it's like saying that there shouldn't be hotkeys because then you would need more skill, the truth is that it would just be bullshit. Or why don't we put the camera in first person, then you wouldn't see what's behind you, would add so much depth and fun!

[Viole]

I use a 15" CRT and it is just way too annoying to lane sometimes, as I can barely see my hero's maximum range if I'm a spell caster, so keeping track of what the enemies are doing as well as behind me and having ample mouse space to move back is kind of bleh. I'll keep the console distance in mind, though

[EnragedCamel]

Saying DOTA is balanced around limited zoom so we shouldn't implement more zoom is like saying cars are balanced around seat belts so we should not install airbags in them.

[Viole]

Saying DOTA is balanced around limited zoom so we shouldn't implement more zoom is like saying cars are balanced around seat belts so we should not install airbags in them.

Some cars are imbalanced though, and some need a few buffs..... haha... ha... buffs.. cars.. wax...

whatever i'm going to make lunch this is lame

[Gage]

Well it seems to me a LOT of us really don't want to be held back by antiquated technology.

I just hope we've made enough noise and shown with the polls that even though gamers are traditionally very scared of change, a vast majority of us want a better, more natural camera view.

I hope you're reading this S2 Devs :)

[Elmy]

100% agreed. Let the game mechanics dictate the depth and strategy, not how quickly someone can manipulate the interface.

I see it as no different than making it so you have to click on a skill 20 times quickly before you can use it, and then calling it a skill you have to develop. Or requiring the user to triple right click to move their hero somewhere. It's stupid and just makes it harder to control your hero.

It's a sign of bad game design if you rely on the difficulty in using the interface to create depth. The interface should be as transparent and quick to use and read as possible, and the strategy should come from how best to work with the mechanics like fog and line of sight and all of the other things that makes this such an interesting and tactical game.

So you're saying that DotA was a badly designed game? I guess you should tell that to the millions of players, and the thousands of competitive players.

The onus should be on the gankee to not get ganked as map awareness is one of the crucial skills when playing DotA / HoN. In fact, much of the game revolves around early-game ganking (which determines the outcome of the game, essentially). There are wards to counter this. Changing this aspect of the game basically changes how DotA is played altogether. Like it or not, deny it or not, having a further zoom will make it easier to avoid a gank.

This same ****ing thread has been made so many times I just keep repeating myself. Probably against the same ****ing people too. I'm not reading this or replying to this post again. Go ahead and waste your time. Tired of 12 year olds trying to make this game easier on them.

[FiNGERS]

Not everyone wants an exact DOTA experience.

They added new maps, new heroes, and changed some existing ones. This clearly shows that they are willing to step away from being a 100% replica of DOTA.

Unlimited camera zoom should be an option. You should be able to turn it off for competitive games (so that it gives you the "DOTA feel" that you think is so important), but this is the 21st century. Games need to evolve with technology.

Ok, 1, comparing hero models/spells/items to the zoom level is not a valid argument.

And 2, technology is not what made Blizzard decide to lock the camera in WC3. They could have offered a free-zoom like you people want. I've explained why they didn't many times before in threads exactly like this. I'm not going to explain it again.

[Techies]

So you're saying that DotA was a badly designed game? I guess you should tell that to the millions of players, and the thousands of competitive players.

The onus should be on the gankee to not get ganked as map awareness is one of the crucial skills when playing DotA / HoN. In fact, much of the game revolves around early-game ganking (which determines the outcome of the game, essentially). There are wards to counter this. Changing this aspect of the game basically changes how DotA is played altogether. Like it or not, deny it or not, having a further zoom will make it easier to avoid a gank.

This same ****ing thread has been made so many times I just keep repeating myself. Probably against the same ****ing people too. I'm not reading this or replying to this post again. Go ahead and waste your time. Tired of 12 year olds trying to make this game easier on them.

According the the age poll there are no 12 year olds.

[rickster]

I have a 24 inch LCD (1920x1200) and a 17inch laptop (also 1920x1200) and I am just fine with the zoom on either display.

Just give spectators the option to zoom out.

[FiNGERS]

People forget games are balanced for competitive play, not the public masses. Just because the majority of people want it, doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that it's going to be implemented.

[Techies]

In any case something needs to be done about camera once and for all. The majority simply don't wanna play with the camera zoomed in so much as it is atm and they aren't.
A lot of the games you playing currently has been with players who increased the zoom level.

Most of the response of having the camera slightly zoomed out more have been positive. It just feels way much better. Only the minority want to keep the camera as is atm as proven by the poll.

The thig is it should be done without a console command and be accessable to all even though only about 3/10 people don't use it.
After that the console command can be disabled, if you disable it now without increasing the limit first there's gonna be a lot of dissapointment on the forum...

To what degree it should be increased? That is what this thread is for.

[Jayschwa]

100% agreed. Let the game mechanics dictate the depth and strategy, not how quickly someone can manipulate the interface.

I see it as no different than making it so you have to click on a skill 20 times quickly before you can use it, and then calling it a skill you have to develop. Or requiring the user to triple right click to move their hero somewhere. It's stupid and just makes it harder to control your hero.

It's a sign of bad game design if you rely on the difficulty in using the interface to create depth. The interface should be as transparent and quick to use and read as possible, and the strategy should come from how best to work with the mechanics like fog and line of sight and all of the other things that makes this such an interesting and tactical game.
Nailed it.

People who think zooming out will make ganking harder should use the minimap more. Zoom level has no bearing on a person's ability to detect ganks if they use the minimap effectively; potential ganks will be detected on the minimap, not the viewport.

[IAmRoot]

There's already a thread on this in the interface suggestion forum. I'll keep this one open for a little while for the poll, though. The other thread is nicer (screenshots and such).

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=4751

[MrJag]

1820 is what I find to be the closest match to DotA. 2300 is my personal preference and what I play at.

As a spectator/referee I like to switch between 3000 and 5000. Anything higher than 5000 and you run into left edge boundary issues (or bottom edge depending on your camera mode). It'd be nice to be able to zoom out 100% but I guess 2/3rds map coverage is good enough for now.

I'm not going to hold my breath for a fix with the edge boundary issues since it's more likely that all this functionally will be restricted rather than enabled in the end.

[Techies]

1820 is what I find to be the closest match to DotA. 2300 is my personal preference and what I play at.

As a spectator/referee I like to switch between 3000 and 5000. Anything higher than 5000 and you run into left edge boundary issues (or bottom edge depending on your camera mode). It'd be nice to be able to zoom out 100% but I guess 2/3rds map coverage is good enough for now.

I'm not going to hold my breath for a fix with the edge boundary issues since it's more likely that all this functionally will be restricted rather than enabled in the end.

I play with 1850 since it also feels a lot closer to dota, if they do make the console command obsolete, I hope do increase the limit to somewhere in between the range 1820-1870 at minimum to actually feel like the equivalent to dota's camera which currently, it does not.

[T7g]

I say 2300, I don't mind the glitching that happens around 2300 and I think if they're going to lock the console command for it to any value then I think 2300 is fair to those that don't mind it.

I always play on 2300, doesn't feel right otherwise.

[Techies]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=7136&postcount=28

Fielding

That said, we're building this game for you guys: the community. Nothing is set in stone. Being free of the warcraft engine means we can do pretty much whatever we want. If the overwhelming opinion of the majority is that they'd like to see this change, we'll absolutely give it more consideration.

[Barter]

Well I would say its quite a lot of people that want this and it's not even that much of a zoom out, just a little more than it is now. You won't be told by the game that someone is on the fog coming to you just because you are zoomed a little more, you still need to watch the minimap as always. No one is saying (well some are) that it sould be god vision, because yes that would be ridiculous, we just want to feel less trapped in our screen.

[KARTlK]

So you're saying that DotA was a badly designed game? I guess you should tell that to the millions of players, and the thousands of competitive players.

The onus should be on the gankee to not get ganked as map awareness is one of the crucial skills when playing DotA / HoN. In fact, much of the game revolves around early-game ganking (which determines the outcome of the game, essentially). There are wards to counter this. Changing this aspect of the game basically changes how DotA is played altogether. Like it or not, deny it or not, having a further zoom will make it easier to avoid a gank.

This same ****ing thread has been made so many times I just keep repeating myself. Probably against the same ****ing people too. I'm not reading this or replying to this post again. Go ahead and waste your time. Tired of 12 year olds trying to make this game easier on them.

IceFrog clearly wanted a larger camera zoom. Why this was not possible I have no idea. What that one guy said is true (something about how a good game shouldn't need an interface to make the game harder, I think, something like that idk).

[Techies]

Looking at the results thus far I would say the poll should look more like this. MAybe I'll create it after the voting for this one expires.

1650 Default
1750-1800
1850-1900
2000
2100

Why I removed unlimited zoom? Simple because 75% actually wants a limit.

[Techies]

Updated OP with examples of the zoom levels. If I knew about F5 I would of done it sooner...pretend that the red lava spot is an enemy.

[HighlifeTTU]

I have to say, I think the zoom limitation in this game is pretty weird. I did not play DotA, and my first Dota-esque game was Demigod. Demigod is a completely different game in many regards, but it did have an unlimited zoom. I was so used to zooming out with the mouse wheel that in my first HoN game I kept trying to flick the mouse wheel to get a better view.

I think many people in this thread have already summed up my exact feelings. Will moving the zoom out to 2100 or so really change the face of the game for a -pro- player? The consensus seems to be no, as a pro player will catch an incoming gank from the mini-map.

Yes, it might remove a bit of the gank factor for new players, but this game is difficult enough that I think this might be something that would help the community.

[Lexi00]

2100 looks great, so long as they don't change the fog of war limit it'll be fine. Also nice it be able to see more then a few feet when playing Hellborne top with the large ui in the way.

[Spawn10459]

I play at 2300. this should be set to max zoom.

[endo]

changing the zoom doesnt change the fog. all those people spamming about ganks being easier to spot are stupid. if you're any good, you still spot the gank coming at the same time: when the hero comes out of the fog. again... changing the zoom does not change this.

zoom should be max, so people can just find it and leave it where they like it.

[zzSleeper]

I play at 2100 and occasionally zoom a little depending on the situation. I'd zoom out more if the max draw distance didn't kick in. I'm glad to see the community sees reason in this matter - over 50% voting for something sane.

[Ozus]

I have always enjoyed Supreme Commander's zoom and ever since I played that game every game with a limited zoom seems flawed and somehow clumsy. Tho thx to the way heroes are displayed on the minimap in hon I haven't had any problems with the overview.

[EnragedCamel]

100% agreed. Let the game mechanics

I see it as no different than making it so you have to click on a skill 20 times quickly before you can use it, and then calling it a skill you have to develop. Or requiring the user to triple right click to move their hero somewhere. It's stupid and just makes it harder to control your hero.

It's a sign of bad game design if you rely on the difficulty in using the interface to create depth. The interface should be as transparent and quick to use and read as possible, and the strategy should come from how best to work with the mechanics like fog and line of sight and all of the other things that makes this such an interesting and tactical game. dictate the depth and strategy, not how quickly someone can manipulate the interface.

I wanted to quote this again because it is so full of win. The UI's job in any game (or in any software, for that matter), is to be as transparent as possible and give the user the information they demand in a readily accessible manner.

Limiting the UI and then selling that as a critical gameplay element (or worse yet, a part of "balance") reeks of bad, lazy design.


So you're saying that DotA was a badly designed game? I guess you should tell that to the millions of players, and the thousands of competitive players.


DoTA may have been very popular but this does not mean that it did not have any design flaws. Now HoN has the ability to fix them, thanks to its new engine.

[Azurech]

The default is ok. I dont want to see more or with unlimited zoom anything in my heroes sight. would be too easy.
And it is kinda cheat to make ur own viewing distance. they should fix it..

and btw: it doesnt work for me oO

[Tyga]

Looking at the results thus far I would say the poll should look more like this. MAybe I'll create it after the voting for this one expires.

1650 Default
1750-1800
1850-1900
2000
2100

Learn to math! A valid statistical study has equal bin sizes that cover all possible ranges, such as:

Less than 1600
1600-1799
1800-1999
2000-2199
2200-2399
2400 or Greater

Edit: Nevermind, I just made a new poll with these bins myself.

[Techies]

Bump for change...

Could aways go for the minority vote of 1950

[zellogs]

I think they should let you set within a range of how far you want the camera to go, so those who want their 'immersion' with 1650 can stay that way while I won't kill myself by being forced to feel like my camera is on top of my hero.

[Jofarin]

Just found this topic and have to say: Yes, more zoom would be great.
And statistically spoken: 2/3 of the voters voted for 1900+ and over 50% voted for 2100+. Thats 4 times as much as for "stay at the current level" voted.

[Cerbie]

Could it be argued that keeping the zoom at it's current level reduces the effectiveness of devourer and valkyrie too much? They were designed with dota's camera in mind, where HoN is much more zoomed in as proven in another thread. At least more of the level is visible in dota.

exactly.

Current zoom is such that it promotes ganking.

If you don't allow for limited site, then it kills a crucial part of the game.

If you make it MAP DEPENDENT then that would be fine, that way custom maps allow for more zoom out if need be (like WC3), but doesn't destroy maps designed to be played like Dota.

[freche1]

Even if you are really zoomed out you still can't see through the fog.

And if it was unlimited I think most people wont be zoomed out more then around 2300-2400 because it will be harder and harder to click on correct units, I would have voted for 2200 if that was an option and if the poll was open :)

[SK]

Can you still do this? Whenever I type in g_CamDistanceMax xxxx into the console, it does nothing. I actually got it to zoom in to like 500 once, but I wasn't able to make it zoom back out. Not even to 1650. I had to close the game and re-open it to get the zoom back to 1650. I can't seem to make it go higher than that.

[MistuhKronS]

I tried this in game and it doesnt work? it says something along the lines of that command being read-only. any help please? i would LOVE to be able to zoom out more.

[Fluffums]

To the people complaining about not being able to gank: Seriously? Like a little bit more zoom will stop 5 heroes smashing on 1. Just giving them a chance to see someone coming like 1 second quicker (wont be loads because FOG OF WAR wont change) will change much. If you're pro enough, it won't have any bearing what so ever.

There's loads of points to this, with good points from both sides. That said, I never played DotA and I love HoN. I would prefer some more zoom to the game because at this point it time, its way too cramped.

I just think more zoom would be nice. Just in case; I play on a 27" screen with 2560x1440 res, HoN in windowed mode at 1920x1080 because theres not enough zoom.

[BlacRyu]

Although the low camera distance can still be annoying at times (especially on large monitors), as you can see by the dates on the posts above, the debate over this ended a couple years ago. I don't think S2 is going to change their minds at this point, although when custom maps are available map creators will be able to change this limit if they want to.

[Techies]

I had a 17inch monitor when I posted it. The camera zoom is a much bigger problem with 4:3 Than on a 22 inch 16:9.

Think they overestimated the vertical advantage. 4:3 should honestly have a bit more zoom out.

[NiGHTsC]

Welcome to 2009.

[Xellos357]

hon, the wanna-be dota that can't ****ing make up their own rules. way to go S2

[MetalMuppet]

Tried that but only seems to work in practice games, dont know why

[A114U]

ban plz necroposter

[ApeSh1t]

wait wait wait, hold up a second u telling me that i can zoom my cam distance up to a 2100 in a MM game, and that wont consider to be a hack?

[Ass_Fister]

wait wait wait, hold up a second u telling me that i can zoom my cam distance up to a 2100 in a MM game, and that wont consider to be a hack?

only in practice for a very long time ;)

[ApeSh1t]

ain't that a *****, just got my hopes up :(