Let us zoom out more please.

[EnragedCamel]

Dear S2 Games,

Having to look at the minimap to see what is 800 units away is too difficult, especially if you play a fragile hero and need to react to threats fast.

Please give people the option to zoom out more. It would actually be cool if we could zoom out to see the entire map (kind of like demigod) so that we can get a broad overview of things.

Love,
Enraged Camel

[Secron]

Firstly, there's been a billion of these threads already.

Secondly, It's locked to a certain max distance for a reason. Learn to play like that, it's part of the skill.

Lastly, If it was changed, it would unbalance the game.

[EnragedCamel]

Firstly: so what.

Secondly: this is utterly retarded. Making the UI non-user-friendly and difficult to use does not make people "better". Get off the elitist high horse.

Lastly: how would it unbalance the game? Explain please, I'd like to hear it.

[Tass1]

Secondly: this is utterly retarded. Making the UI non-user-friendly and difficult to use does not make people "better". Get off the elitist high horse.See Starcraft. This game gives you an avantage just for high APM, which shouldn't be the case for a game, as it's just a sign of VERY bad design.

[FiNGERS]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=4751&highlight=zoom

Read this thread. It gets juicy.

[EnragedCamel]

See Starcraft. This game gives you an avantage just for high APM, which shouldn't be the case for a game, as it's just a sign of VERY bad design.

APM?

[Secron]

Firstly: so what.

/facepalm

P.S. I'm not even going to bother answering the third question, I'll leave it up to you to read the other threads.

[EnragedCamel]

/facepalm

P.S. I'm not even going to bother answering the third question, I'll leave it up to you to read the other threads.

The only thing I can think of is that players who "rush" their opponents would be at a disadvantage because the opponent would see them coming from further away.

Which of course is stupid. The game already gives you plenty of mechanisms you surprise your enemy, line of sight being the primary among them, and various items (blink, invis, speed boost, etc.) coming in second. You don't need a low zoom to add to this.

[Tass1]

APM?
actions per minute

[rade_ca]

See Starcraft. This game gives you an avantage just for high APM, which shouldn't be the case for a game, as it's just a sign of VERY bad design.

Starcraft and "very bad design" never belong in the same sentence.
Thanks for trying though.

But, regardless.. HoN does not need much more zoom. I think its fine how it is but if it did get raised a bit further, it would be nice.

[Skela]

I hate change, don't change anything :P

If it's not broke, don't fix it

[Lucifinil]

I think it needs more zoom, Heroes are about size of half my palm on 24 inch at native resolution at farthest zoom... -_-

[Secron]

The only thing I can think of is that players who "rush" their opponents would be at a disadvantage because the opponent would see them coming from further away.

Which of course is stupid. The game already gives you plenty of mechanisms you surprise your enemy, line of sight being the primary among them, and various items (blink, invis, speed boost, etc.) coming in second. You don't need a low zoom to add to this.

You're missing the point. HoN is taking what made DotA balanced and camera fixed at a certain max zoom is part of this. If you start changing things there's countless repercussions that could come of it.

[IAmRoot]

This topic has been beaten to death countless times. They're not going to zoom it out.

I would, however, love a 3rd person shooter mode.

[Stormzors]

Everyone has the set camera, just learn to play with it.

Without reading that thread I think having an unlocked camera advantages people playing on a higher resolution.

[IAmRoot]

Everyone has the set camera, just learn to play with it.

Without reading that thread I think having an unlocked camera advantages people playing on a higher resolution.

Not only that, but certain heroes require being able to surprise attack.

[DEiMUS]

Dear S2 Games,

Having to look at the minimap to see what is 800 units away is too difficult, especially if you play a fragile hero and need to react to threats fast.

Please give people the option to zoom out more. It would actually be cool if we could zoom out to see the entire map (kind of like demigod) so that we can get a broad overview of things.

Love,
Enraged Camel

No. Learn how to play the game and quit whining.

[Robbo]

The fact they don't let you zoom out anymore to the current settings IS bad design. Making it so players can atleast see heroes near them is NOT bad design. People here telling the OP to stop whining need to grow the **** up. He is not whining, he is asking for a feature which you see in any other RTS game that wasn't made years ago.

I can see zoom being the main criticism of reviewers for this game, that and the hopeless community (hopefully fixed by a nice karma system or something...).

Having a limited zoom just adds to the already steep learning curve and IS NOT necessary. When you zoom out you can't see people in the fog of war, which is restricted by everyones line of sight... which is the gameplay mechanic, ZOOM IS NOT!

It seems like the new map (the 3v3 one I can never remember the name of) is zoomed out a bit more or everything is smaller? If you can set the max zoom level in maps then I suppose I'll be happy with that.

I use the qwer hotkeys as most people do I assume. This means I have to constantly push the mouse to the edge of the screen JUST to move a little distance back. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if I could use the arrow keys to move the camera however doing that would be at even more disadvantage as I would take longer to select a skill.


Everyone has the set camera, just learn to play with it.

Without reading that thread I think having an unlocked camera advantages people playing on a higher resolution.

We don't want the camera completely unlocked. We want a higher max setting which will be the same for everyone just as the shitty setting is now.

[Touched]

See Starcraft. This game gives you an avantage just for high APM, which shouldn't be the case for a game, as it's just a sign of VERY bad design.
lol no. You don't get an advantage in sc just for high apm, you have to use it for stuff. DOTA can do same thing with micro, using pets, etc. Don't even try to diss the most balanced and successful competitive game of all time; it's what everything else has to be measured against.

[h4x2]

See Starcraft. This game gives you an avantage just for high APM, which shouldn't be the case for a game, as it's just a sign of VERY bad design.

I know. Starcraft was such a terrible monster. I have no idea what those Koreans are thinking. Damn.

Honestly, I'm fine with the current camera zoom. It is (in itself) a matter of strategy. If you focus too much on one part of the map you might miss what's coming up behind you. Surprise :). The minimap should satiate your zoom-out needs.

[DropX]

Being able to zoom out more would completely ruin it. As stated above many times.

Not being able to zoom out far was fine in DOTA for years, live with it =)

[Spiriax]

Whenever I try to backstab an enemy, I try to hide so I'm not in the enemies' line of sight. If I can see the enemy too early, before I am to assault, I presume that I have shown myself as well too early, and it becomes a bad situation and you have to back. I will back because I presume he has seen me, I won't continue hiding and think: "I was visible there for a moment but hopefully he didn't see me on the minimap and he probably didn't scroll his screen view enough to the side."

My point is that with more zoom-out, this won't change. There is still fog of war.

It may seem that I am for more zoom-out, but actually I'm fine either way. Although I must say I would like to try and play with more zoom-out.

[_Archangel_]

*sigh* Tass was being sarcastic.

Also, the camera already zooms out more than DotA does. If it zooms further than this, it becomes difficult to click the right things and such. Also, there's not much point in the feature seeing as you can't see beyond your hero's line of sight anyway (i.e. No point zooming out to see 8000 units away when your hero's LoS is 1800~). One screen covers most of a LoS anyway, and map-awareness should remove the need for more zoom. If more zoom was a needed feature in DotA Icefrog could have added it already

[xwonic]

havent tried but can you rotate camera like in warcraft3?

[Stupy]

ppls should l2p and stop with the whine ._.

[LordBass]

look at demigod D: it sux, you can see everything with that damn camera
and that SUX a lot

try playing and you'll understand

[Robbo]

*sigh* Tass was being sarcastic.

Also, the camera already zooms out more than DotA does. If it zooms further than this, it becomes difficult to click the right things and such. Also, there's not much point in the feature seeing as you can't see beyond your hero's line of sight anyway (i.e. No point zooming out to see 8000 units away when your hero's LoS is 1800~). One screen covers most of a LoS anyway, and map-awareness should remove the need for more zoom. If more zoom was a needed feature in DotA Icefrog could have added it already

It doesn't make things harder to click in because you can zoom in!
Also it's not about seeing things. It is about not having to scroll around so much, if I want to run back I want to simply click. Not click, scroll, click just to get out of the line of site.
And Icefrog wouldn't have added it as it is a limitation of the W3 engine.

[Badeball]

It is a much more seamless experience to have full zoom capabilites instead of having to switch attention from a crappy minimap to the actual gameplay. Free zoom gives a much more -intuitive- experience.

In response to the Demigod-bashing, I find Demigod to be much more fun than HoN. In HoN you feel so weak in comparison to the creeps, whereas in Demigod you feel really powerful. The last hit to get gold/denial mechanic of HoN is very unappealing to me. It feels like there's much less to do in HoN without the flags of Demigod. Also I prefer fewer more fleshed out heroes than a lot of one dimensional ones (a high level hero in HoN kan have all the 4 skills maxed, wheras in Demigod you're forced to specialize. Even though most Demigod heroes have only 4 active skills, there are many passives which give more options). And Demigod's graphics are much more compelling. But I will admit that HoN has a vastly superior lobby system. Ultimately HoN feels like a WC3-mod with a bit better graphics (the character models are very wc3-esque). And the zoom-thing is almost a dealbreaker for me.

[Robbo]

I agree with your last sentence. If I didn't play this game with mates then I probably wouldn't buy it just because of the refusal to have descent zoom...

[EnragedCamel]

I think it's pretty clear that former DOTA players prefer the current lack of zoom whereas new players want the ability to zoom out more.

Maybe we can find a happy medium and implement it as a game option? Perhaps make it part of EM.

[Smookr]

The game is based on DotA, where as everything was balanced according to the limitations of the WC3 engine. There's a reason the zoom is locked, it works and it complements the way the game is designed. If you could zoom out to see a larger part of the battlefield, you could see ganks and projectiles like valkyries arrow coming from miles away thanks to the linked views with your teammates and avoid them too easily. Currently you have to have a great deal of map-awarness - which in itself is a skill - and then connect the happenings on the map, to your actual view of the battlefied, to estimate how long something takes or how far something is.

And about the learning curve. Yes, it is horribly steep. But lots of people have conquered it so why couldn't new players conquer it too? If they get turned down by the fact that they're getting literally owned constantly, and don't know what to do or what something does, and can't make themselves find out by doing a little research or asking someone, are just playing the wrong game. I found the game extremely complex when i started, but i worked my ass off in learning it - and i'm still learning even if i have played quite a few games in DotA and HoN altogether - and now, it's one of the best games i've ever played.

This game ain't Demigod, this game ain't StarCraft, this game ain't some modern RTS where you can zoom out when ever you want. Why change something that isn't broken, something that doesn't please everyones mind but works? EVEN if other RTS games have the option to zoom-out, why should HoN? Learn to adapt to the game, instead of trying to make the game adapt to you.

This game ain't Demigod, this game ain't StarCraft, this game ain't some modern RTS where you can zoom out when ever you want. Why change something that isn't broken, something that doesn't please everyones mind but works? EVEN if other RTS games have the option to zoom-out, why should HoN? Learn to adapt to the game, instead of trying to make the game adapt to you.



When 78% of the people who voted in the poll on the link from page one say they want to zoom out more in some way(mulitple choice poll % is screwy but only 25% voted for no change to cam and another 50% want to tilt and rotate also.). I'm for a limited zoom just so it easier to move around. Nothing more then 2000 zoom out or about 1.25x-1.5x(not sure what the default zoom is).

[BeMyFeeder]

yet another useless post.

first of all, giving players certain limitations, like how far you can see around your hero, how fast you can cast your spells or use your items, or how difficult it is to kill a creep or deny it an etc, makes the game more competitional. Which i think is (or at least should be) the final purpose of HoN. If indeed HoN wants to equal Dota in it's success (and it might be wrong to say dota because 80% of dota is pure warcraft 3) it must be a challenging competitional map. Not only a fun game. i am sorry, and you can tell me to "get a life" or whatever your brains might cook up, but if you want to play dota, hon or any other game similar to them only for fun.. just play in single player or with AI.

In short, asking (stupid) things like "please let us zoom, rotate, pan the map however we want so we can see everything" or, "let us right click a creep at half hp and deny it instantly" and so on is like playing Counterstrike and asking the devs to make a built-in Aimbot for you.

And anyway, your vision in HoN is limited by fog of war, and it doesn't matter how far you zoom out, you're still gonna get surprise attacks with no time to react. Just learn the game, develop your map awareness and game reflexes and you will find that these limitations make the game as enjoyable and addictive as it is.
If all of the above seems too difficult for you, go outside play some football, video games ruin your life anyway :D

[Badeball]

The "map awareness" skill you are talking about is just skill in overcoming an unnecessary limitation. Without this people could focus on more interesting parts of the game. A player's focus is very limited, and "minimap awareness" is very uninteresting. It's analogous to playing the game without hotkeys. Sure, that would open up a whole new thing to be skilled at, but it would be an equally uninteresting skillset, and would feel unnecessarily limiting for players who are used to modern games that have overcome those limitiations.

[IAmRoot]

Please keep view/camera discussion to this (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=4751) thread.

*Locked*