Raising your KDR

[Synthix]

How is it done because mine is just flat out terrible. At first I was telling myself (and as we know there are downies on almost every team) "god my team is so bad. I'm dying so much its ridiculous." But lately i've just been thinking... am I bad? It's a possibility but.. my question is.. why?

I usually play heroes like :pebb::pest::poll::hamm::engi: etc. So I thought maybe its just cause im a stun support. but I was trying :scou: earlier and I went 1/8 -.- So maybe im just bad.. could anyone help me with a "baddie diagnostic"

Much appreciated.

[Blazamane]

could always play nukers :3

[Scripture1]

This is exactly where many go wrong.

"Im going to try and raise my KDR!"
* Picks [Random Carry] *
* Gets negative score *

Focus on dieing less, not getting more kills.

[endo]

just gotta get a feel for when to be aggressive and when to stay back.

#1 problem with bads is they charge when they shouldn't and then run back when they could be getting kills.

takes experience and practice, and sometimes someone else to point it out for you.

[Synthix]

well right now my average game statistic is 2/6.2/5.4 I get a **** ton of assists. but hardly an kills. And yah I gotta be a little less greedy. its how I die trying to get kills.

[FonzieD]

Play:

:soulr::chro::pyro::thun::blac::pupp::zeph::witc:: wret:

[Naratu]

I usually play heroes like :pebb::pest::poll::hamm::engi: etc. So I thought maybe its just cause im a stun support.

:pebb: is an initiator
:pest: is a carry
:poll: is a disabler
:hamm: is closer to a carry than a support, but a bit of both.
:engi: is a support

I hate to say it, but the way to raise your PSR is to just get better at the game. Read the training grounds forums, they'll help you quite a bit. A few quick pointers, though:

Your creep kills are godawful, so i'm going to assume you auto attack(auto-attacking is bad bad bad, don't do it unless you want to lose). "Last hitting" is a method of simply getting the last hit on a creep, giving you gold and experience. To do this, just walk around the creeps without attacking(spam right click the ground, or hit h, your choice) until the creep is low enough to kill. Then get the last hit and ONLY the last hit. You can also last hit your own creeps by clicking a, then left clicking. You can begin to do this when they are at 50% health. The advantage to this is that you are denying you enemy of the gold/xp from that creep. It also pulls the enemy creeps closer to your tower, making it safer for you to farm and more dangerous for the enemy to farm.

Learn heroes and hero roles. There are a few good guides on basic game mechanics by a guy named "Nigma" that i show to all my new friends that play. They have quite a few key things that I think a lot of new players overlook.

Stare at your mini-map. I mean stare. If you could follow players eyes, I would imagine that the people who play HoN competitively are looking at the mini-map more than 50% of the time. It's that important.

There is an option on the left side of the game selection screen that says Easy Mode. Make sure that is checked red before you filter games. If you're actually wanting to get better at the game, playing Easy Mode is counter-productive.

[EGNesTea420]

You've got a few big issues:

-80% EM GAMES PLAYED
Stop playing EM. It's only going to continue to foster bad habits. That being said if you're still going .3KD in EM there are issues beyond that.

- Creep kills: 27 Creep Denies: .3
There is no excuse for this even in easy mode. You aren't getting jack **** for farm so of course you aren't going to do anything.

On your last scout replay you managed, by 27 minutes, to finish steamboots, a power supply and a Sustainer. You had a GPM of 55 in an easy mode game.I mean that is abysmal. Most scout players, even average ones, can get around 300GPM in a normal mode game. To continue what I'm saying most scouts can get around a 15-17 minute Runed axe in normal mode (I usually average 16-17 minutes).


I mean 90% of your issue is that you have a laughably poor GPM in all of your games which matches that of a support player in a normal mode game who is purely babysitting.

[Synthix]

Whats wrong with EM? It just goes by a bit faster. and idk what GPM stands for but i assume you mean creep kills. I should be killing more creeps? farming more? Thank you for the critique btw. A lot more helpful than "u r bad" Cause I already know that.

[Naratu]

Whats wrong with EM?

EM gives you twice as much gold by default, meaning that your GPM(gold per minute, by the way) is, by default, twice as high as Normal Mode games. Essentially, playing Normal Mode games will force you to learn to last hit and deny creeps in order to get some gold and items.

Another problem with learning to play in easy mode is that the mode is simply imbalanced. If you're looking for infallible ways to raise your KDR, then one of the most obvious answers is "don't play against overpowered heroes." Unfortunately, half the heroes in the game are extremely overpowered in Easy Mode, so I'd steer clear.

If you're looking for a slightly shorter game and don't really want to put the effort into learning to play a balanced game, though, EM is fine.

Also, as was mentioned above - until you can farm well(get your creep score up around 100+ creeps a game, at least), do NOT play a carry, as they are very item-dependent. Second, not dying is just as important as kills, but is generally easier to do than getting kills, as it only requires your personal skill and not the lack of skill on the enemy team. Try hard to stay alive. Buy items with stats(int, agi, str) such as Fortified Bracers so that you are harder to kill.

[Synthix]

Oh ok Gold per minute... Well I never quite understood only last hitting.. whats wrong with auto attacking? I've heard its bad all over the place just cant understand why. I can play normal mode its fine. I've just been told EM is faster. I try to deny as much as I can but it can be difficult. especially when I play hammerstorm or glacius cause there delay is god awful.

[EGNesTea420]

Oh ok Gold per minute... Well I never quite understood only last hitting.. whats wrong with auto attacking? I've heard its bad all over the place just cant understand why. I can play normal mode its fine. I've just been told EM is faster. I try to deny as much as I can but it can be difficult. especially when I play hammerstorm or glacius cause there delay is god awful.

EM is faster (5 minutes on average) but it's just not worth it with the imbalances. A hero like Chronos who shines when he gets farmed as **** is really OP in EM where as in normal mode you can deal with him early on.


Auto attacking is bad early game because you push the lane. When you push the lane it means that the creeps you want are closer to the enemy tower which makes it more difficult to farm (and easier for the enemy). You want to last hit because it keeps the lane in place allowing you to just chill near your tower and be relatively safe.

Also when you push a lane out too far you are incredibly open to ganks.


Hammerstorm should be easy to last hit with a hatchet. Glacius probably has one of the worst auto attack animations though and you don't want to play him if you "want kills".

[Synthix]

ok this is becoming new information to me. should I be farming jungle (which im usually terrible at when I try) to be last hitting lanes. And which heroes would be good for raising KDR? (when done properly of course...)

[Mateui]

Oh ok Gold per minute... Well I never quite understood only last hitting.. whats wrong with auto attacking? I've heard its bad all over the place just cant understand why. I can play normal mode its fine. I've just been told EM is faster. I try to deny as much as I can but it can be difficult. especially when I play hammerstorm or glacius cause there delay is god awful.
What's wrong with auto attacking is that it pushes the lane, meaning that the creeps will be advancing further away from the safety of your tower, putting you at greater danger of being ganked. Denying is pointless in EM because it doesn't really stifle your opponents compared to in NM.

If you only attack to last hit and deny the creeps will continue to meet up around the same point in the map, which is nice for you if you are fighting close to your tower.

[MacSkillz]

Well I never quite understood only last hitting.. whats wrong with auto attacking?

If you last hit a creep, you receive more gold and experience then you would usually get from just having your creeps kill it and receiving the XP aura. Thus, last hitting gives you more gold and levels you faster, which in turn gets you more items, which in turn (hopefully) gets you more kills and less deaths.

Also, it's not just about items and what people tell you to do on the forums. Go to HoNCast (http://honcast.com) and watch replays of professional teams, especially We Heart Pigs.

Play more games, watch more pros, learn strats and builds. Only then will you become a better player.

[EGNesTea420]

ok this is becoming new information to me. should I be farming jungle (which im usually terrible at when I try) to be last hitting lanes. And which heroes would be good for raising KDR? (when done properly of course...)

Don't farm the jungle until later levels or unless you're on certain jungle heroes (like :warb::ophe::temp:).

Play a ganker if you want to get your KD up, although to be honest I would focus on just not dying first. Heroes like :pyro::dead::valk::pebb::arac: can always get fairly easy kills, especially at such a low level of play.

[Flow]

last hitting; you don't do enough. If you auto attack you waste time which could be spend denying or making sure you get that last creep kill. you also push the lane, which is why I always prioritize denies over last hits.

it's all about efficiency.

[endo]

watch pro / high level replays.

[Synthix]

I never quite understood why pebbles is a ganker... just seems like a stun whore to me. but eh.

[Naratu]

With Portal Key, pebbles can blink on top of an enemy hero, then hit them with both of his abilities and do an instant 1k damage to them, as well as auto attacking them a few times. Essentially any hero that can pop out of the bushes and dish out a massive amount of burst like that is a ganker.

[EGNesTea420]

With Portal Key, pebbles can blink on top of an enemy hero, then hit them with both of his abilities and do an instant 1k damage to them, as well as auto attacking them a few times. Essentially any hero that can pop out of the bushes and dish out a massive amount of burst like that is a ganker.

Yup.

Pebbles has the nasty ability of being able to combo and 2 shot (stun+chuck) most squishy heroes early game. Watch any replay of Chu` playing pebbles, for example, you'll see just how stupid good he can be early game.

[Irsic]

I never quite understood why pebbles is a ganker... just seems like a stun whore to me. but eh.

Pebbles two abilities do IMMENSE amounts of damage alone, and together they are a combo. In the Stalagmite's tooltip:

Units affected by Chuck take double damage.

This means, with a bit of mana (240) combined with Portal Key (which is another 75 mana), you can blink, Stalagmites, and Chuck someone really fast, and take out squishy heroes really easily.

[MaxGhost]

Moved because Training Grounds is the correct section to get this kind of advice/help.

[Scripture1]

ok this is becoming new information to me. should I be farming jungle (which im usually terrible at when I try) to be last hitting lanes. And which heroes would be good for raising KDR? (when done properly of course...)

When done properly, no hero will lower your KDR.
So your pick matters not.

To raise it, basically any strength or agility hero will work.

[anyfloyd]

I never quite understood why pebbles is a ganker... just seems like a stun whore to me. but eh.

having a stun is one of the things that classifies a hero as a ganker.

by the sounds of things, your single biggest problem is your farming ability - all other problems stem from there. if you farm very badly at the start, such that your items and experience are lower than the enemy heroes you will be both more inneffective at killing, and die more easily. this is something even the best players can't overcome at times.

aside from working on lasthitting (which you should definitely do) always teleport back to the lane when you die - this minimises the time spent getting 0 xp and 0 gold. another thing, a point of experience is judging when you're able to safely farm a lane. if you're watching the map frequently like you should, and see the enemy heroes are all on the other side of the map, you can farm further away from your towers. however, if they your team goes to defend your own tower, DON'T run across the map, you should ALWAYS have a teleport on you to get there instantly.

[Synthix]

where can you see these replays again?

[Vulpes]

Raising your KDR:

I usually play heroes like :pebb:

That's all what you need. Unless you are terrible.

[Sushi]

where can you see these replays again?
In game, click on Match Stats and type in the game ID you want to see. There's also honcast.com which has lots of replays with commentary.

[MacSkillz]

APM = Actions per Minute.

He's saying stop auto-attacking ans start last-hitting/denying.

[MohJ]

You should focus on raising your CK and CD for now instead of focusing on raising your KDR. 27 average creep kills is down right terrible.

At above post: Actually APM stands for Actions Per Minute.

[EGNesTea420]

No idea what that is.

Actions per minute.

It means that, on average, you click/hit a hotkey/ect. 41 times in a minute. It's one of those things you shouldn't worry a lot about, it'll naturally get higher as you get better and if you start working on last hitting/denying more it'll rise a lot.

[RogerDodger]

It means you have 41 actions per minute (Average).

The lowest APM I've seen of any competent player is 60, and most decent players will be above 90. Obviously there are exceptions to this (Since HoN generally isn't very micro-intensive), but you need to start paying more attention to the game and what you're doing.

41 actions per minute is about 1 action per 1.5 seconds, which is combined mouse clicks AND key presses. Perhaps use hotkeys more, do you use Q W O P for you skills? Do you hotkey items? Are you pressing A to deny?

[voidSkipper]

You're going about this the wrong way.

You don't pick heroes to up kdr, you practise to up your skill. A good player will be able to get a solid, positive score with any hero. All the BS you hear about "SUPPORT HEROES ALWAYS DIE" is just excuses made by bad players.

The reason you are not being successful is because you don't farm quick enough, which means your items are a mile behind the rest of the players in the game. It's not just a matter of getting your items, but a matter of getting them quickly.

I personally like to time myself, so I know how my performance is stacking up to previous games and whether I need to go jungle for a while.

For instance, if I don't have phase, hatchet and hotbl on Zephyr by 15 mins, I know something is wrong. If I don't have radiance by 25, I know that I've missed the boat on that item and need to skip it for lategame potential items.

If I don't have slash, bracers and phase on swiftblade by 16 minutes, I know my early ganks have failed and I need to farm up to be any kind of useful late.

On heroes like scout, this is -very- important. Scout is not an awful hero, but he is very item dependant. If you don't have a runed axe by 18 minutes, you're in a world of ****. If you can't come out with a deso and basher by 28-30, you're probably not going to have any impact on the game at all and you've just become an enormous liability.

What you need to do is just practise your last hitting. Strive to get every enemy creep and deny every allied creep in every wave. Start with heroes that are good at last hitting - Corrupted Disciple, Andromeda, Swiftblade, Engineer are all good examples. Also Chronos with a hatchet and Zephyr. These heroes all have fast, predictable animations and projectile speed, meaning you have an advantage over the pollywog with his loopy glowing tennisballs.

If you keep that sort of discipline up for the whole early game, you'll be equipped to get a lot of kills and you'll probably see your APM break 100 and your GPM break 220.

Your KDR will rise naturally at this point.

[Taco_Bueno]

Don't know why this hasn't been posted yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e02e7qGhRwQ&feature=related

watch and follow

[Naratu]

I just watched a replay of your last game.. You didn't even make it to your lane til 2 minutes in.. early game exp/gold is EXTREMELY important.

[Mandos1]

1. Stop dying. You don't need to start ksing with nukers to get good K/D. It's all about the deaths.

I'll use Myself as an example, let say i'd die six times in a row one game, which leaves me at 0-6. To make up for that devastating blow to my K/D, and just to make up, that means to go even. I'd have
to play the next game as 13-0. Since I'm at 2.2 K/D ratio, every death must be followed by 2.2 kills even out.

So: wards, map control, map awareness, when to run, when to fight. Mastering these skills will positively icnrease you K/D.

But anyhow you K/D shouldn't be the goal, to be a better player should be then the rest follows naturally.

[Lunarus]

Hey, its a good way to farm good KDA rate in a low PSR game.

[Lucretius]

KDR, aside from the extremities, isn't important... imo. I think a persons Assist to Death Ratio is much more important than their kdr (again, aside from the extremities).

<=0.6 is a pretty low kdr , and indicates a player who might...
- Feed, because they are either new, bad, or a plant account.
- Plays support almost exclusively.

>=1.3 is pretty high, and indicates a player who might...
- Kill Steal.
- Play mostly gank/carry type heroes exclusively, these are generally the types who play with friends that support them. Guild Leaders and your Chu` types.
- There is also a breed of player out there that will intentionally hang back to allow his team to soften the enemy, and then clean up afterwards.

Like I said, aside from the extremes, KDR isn't that big of a deal...

You should not:
- Kill steal to raise your KDR. Do it legit, or you're only being dishonest with yourself... and counterproductive if your goal is to improve.
- Get discouraged because you got owned once while playing a carry. Carries require support, and a unique play style that must be learned.

[KalurO]

You've got a few big issues:

-80% EM GAMES PLAYED
Stop playing EM. It's only going to continue to foster bad habits. That being said if you're still going .3KD in EM there are issues beyond that.

- Creep kills: 27 Creep Denies: .3
There is no excuse for this even in easy mode. You aren't getting jack **** for farm so of course you aren't going to do anything.

On your last scout replay you managed, by 27 minutes, to finish steamboots, a power supply and a Sustainer. You had a GPM of 55 in an easy mode game.I mean that is abysmal. Most scout players, even average ones, can get around 300GPM in a normal mode game. To continue what I'm saying most scouts can get around a 15-17 minute Runed axe in normal mode (I usually average 16-17 minutes).


I mean 90% of your issue is that you have a laughably poor GPM in all of your games which matches that of a support player in a normal mode game who is purely babysitting.

300GPM? Do I really suck that much then? :|
http://stats.maide.ca/players/view/kaluro/page:graphs

[KalurO]

KDR, aside from the extremities, isn't important... imo. I think a persons Assist to Death Ratio is much more important than their kdr (again, aside from the extremities).

<=0.6 is a pretty low kdr , and indicates a player who might...
- Feed, because they are either new, bad, or a plant account.
- Plays support almost exclusively.

>=1.3 is pretty high, and indicates a player who might...
- Kill Steal.
- Play mostly gank/carry type heroes exclusively, these are generally the types who play with friends that support them. Guild Leaders and your Chu` types.
- There is also a breed of player out there that will intentionally hang back to allow his team to soften the enemy, and then clean up afterwards.

Like I said, aside from the extremes, KDR isn't that big of a deal...

You should not:
- Kill steal to raise your KDR. Do it legit, or you're only being dishonest with yourself... and counterproductive if your goal is to improve.
- Get discouraged because you got owned once while playing a carry. Carries require support, and a unique play style that must be learned.

"KIll stealing".. give me a break.
This is a teamgame and the point is to kill the enemy base, and the enemy team.
So if you deal damage to the enemy hero, be it the killing blow or not then that is called team work, not "kill stealing"..

So you expect people to stay back and not damage the enemy because that might give them a "kill" while the other guy already fighting him might have gotten it else?

This is hilarious.. Damage when you can, wherever you can.. there is no such thing as "killstealing", people that talk about killstealing are stats whores. Last time I managed tokill some heroes I got cursed at by my ally, he went totally nuts; saying I killstealed, while I was just contributing to the team. :rolleyes:

"Hey lets all not attack at all as we might be "killstealing" "

[LightRain]

300GPM? Do I really suck that much then? :|
http://stats.maide.ca/players/view/kaluro/page:graphs

unfortunately, yes, for a carry to truly shine he needs a lot of GPM.

[Novice]

unfortunately, yes, for a carry to truly shine he needs a lot of GPM.

A good example of this: :warb: without at least of 600 gold per minute is doing something wrong. (Note: Public)

[KalurO]

A good example of this: :warb: without at least of 600 gold per minute is doing something wrong. (Note: Public)

600gpm.. <_< I didnt even reach 300gpm with him. Jungling.. *note to self: watch some replays*

[voidSkipper]

Killstealing is not about taking the player who did the most work's skill. It's about making sure the kill goes to the hero that needs it the most.

If you're a voodoo jester and you're ganking with a magebane, you try to make sure magebane gets the kill.

[KalurO]

Killstealing is not about taking the player who did the most work's skill. It's about making sure the kill goes to the hero that needs it the most.

If you're a voodoo jester and you're ganking with a magebane, you try to make sure magebane gets the kill.


Im kind of new to HoN but I dont get it. People that assisted get the same amount of gold from killing blow players, right?
So why would the magebane get the kill?

[laserblade]

Im kind of new to HoN but I dont get it. People that assisted get the same amount of gold from killing blow players, right?
So why would the magebane get the kill?

He needs items more than other non-carry roles since he is an autoattacker and his base attack damage isn't dramatic enough. Damage items are pricy.

[lassegs]

The guy who gets the kill gets more money, typically 290 while you get around 80 for the assist.
LET THE CARRY GET THE KILL! When the enemy hero is below 100HP and there is no chance for him to kill one of your friends or get away, just dont attack. In stead do some positioning, just to ensure that he wont get away.
In 70% of all ganks(public), there will be a moment when the situations turn from "risky" to "a sure kill". If you are Dsham, Witch Slayer, Glacius, or any other type of support, sustain from taking the kills. So many other type of heroes need that gold more than you.
You are failing your role as support if you dont let the carry get as much gold as humanly possible.

[KalurO]

That explains some :D I was convinced that assists got the same amount of $$. Thanks for the clarification.

[epibug]

A good example of this: :warb: without at least of 600 gold per minute is doing something wrong. (Note: Public)

You did something wrong here: http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=27411401
:D

[Synthix]

I just watched a replay of your last game.. You didn't even make it to your lane til 2 minutes in.. early game exp/gold is EXTREMELY important.


Well in all fairness i know im bad but I was using the little baddies room lol.

And are there any heroes good for learning to increase your GPM which seems to be my problem cause my golds always being **** on.

[Zingultus]

Well in all fairness i know im bad but I was using the little baddies room lol.

And are there any heroes good for learning to increase your GPM which seems to be my problem cause my golds always being **** on.

well ... if you have an melee hero it is always useful to get a hatchet (+32% dmg on neutrals/creeps). With that item u can easily lasthit creeps. Hammerstorm for example has high dmgoutput earlygame(such as deadwood, pebbles, keeper, warbeast ...), combined with hatchet you should get most of the kills (if you time it right).

ranged heroes such as demented shaman ,soulstealer, valkyrie, thunderbringer and so on are good in getting a high GPM. Generally all heroes with an AE-Spell (Demented Shaman healing wave - low mana cost, low cd; soulstealer - 3 Spells for different ranges, relativly high mana costs especially in early game; valkyrie#s call of the valkyrie is a good way to get some creepkills; thunderbringer's chainlighting costs very low mana - you can use it to last hit creeps effectively) .

Anyhow: All AE-Spells do cost mana, just use it when you are sure to get many kills. It's not good to waste xxx Mana for 1 creepkill. (except chainlighting)

Best way to learn heroes and its spells is to watch replays. If you click on ladder on hon-homepage you can filter for GPM. Choose a guy with a good GPM and watch his replays.

http://stats.maide.ca/players/view/Synthix

On that site you have a good overview of your games with all its stats. Just copy/paste a name behind .../view/ to check the games of someone you want to learn of. You can see his played heroes with his stats and choose the one you want to watch.

[Strms]

You should really just focus on improving your play instead of KDR. KDR will come naturally as you get better.

Some things you could do to improve:

Stop playing EM. From right now and forever. EM is ridiculously imbalanced, it is like playing a game of chess where all pieces are queens. Just retarded. There is no excuse here.

You really need to learn to lasthit. Autohitting is inferior by far, for reasons mentioned. The only way to learn is to start trying, so attempt to never hit a creep unless it is a lasthit/deny. I suggest you ignore denies until you get at least around 50 creeps in 20m. Denying is nice and all, but if you cant keep up you should just lasthit.

Some good heroes to start practicing your lasthitting are Succubus, Demented Shaman, Wretched Hag, generally all ranged heroes with good range and animation. It is true a melee with hatchet does loads more dmg, but its way harder to lasthit since you get harass and have to walk around all the time.

Good luck

[canikizu]

Watch pro replays, and YOUR OWN replays.

[OTRawrior]

Learn to Rice.
This is where you 'hard deny' creeps.
This is where you attack your own creeps as soon as they have < 50% hp
This keeps the creep line (a phrase I made up descrbing where the creep waves meet) back so you are safer from ganks ect.

[Lucretius]

"KIll stealing".. give me a break.
This is a teamgame and the point is to kill the enemy base, and the enemy team.
So if you deal damage to the enemy hero, be it the killing blow or not then that is called team work, not "kill stealing".

Kill stealing in this game occurs when...
A) Support players last hit enemy heroes and prevent carries from gaining the much needed benefit of the gold gained from the last hit.
B) Relatively Item independent heroes last hit enemy heroes, and prevent more item dependent heroes from gaining the gold from the last hit necessary to make them viable mid/late game.

As a team member you should work to realize your role relative to your teammates. By willfully giving your carry last hits you help to increase his gpm, and the more you can buff your carry the more likely you are to win the game. If you spend time kill-stealing from your carry, not warding the jungle so he can farm with protection or pushing towers while he farms, then you will pay the price for it when the enemy teams carry melts your face.


So you expect people to stay back and not damage the enemy because that might give them a "kill" while the other guy already fighting him might have gotten it else?

Nope that isn't what I said. "Doing Damage" and "Kill Stealing" have nothing to do with one another, I'll explain...

For example lets say I'm playing a demented shaman as support and I'm chasing someone around solo damaging them and chasing. Lets say I do 98% of the damage and my carry runs up...
Should you...
A) Quickly kill the enemy hero before the carry comes and "ninjas" your kill...
B) Let your carry take the kill because the gold would benefit him a great deal...

The answer is B.

You can do all the damage you want, but you should try to give last hits to the people who are either carries, or heroes who are more item dependent.

...and before you get really confused about what "item dependent" means...
By item dependant I don't mean "need items" because everyone needs items. If you're a witch slayer with Ghost Marchers, a couple of bracers, and a Power Supply, you're pretty much set... and can contribute to team fights with valuable stuns and initiations without the need to farm for 20 minutes to do so. A Zephyr, Wildsoul, Archer would benefit 100x more from the gold gain than you would.... and if you choose to use that ult for a kill steal on a hero at 5% hp, then you are only sabotaging your team for failure later in the game.

[Synthix]

could someone explain something I read about called ancient stacking or something. I dont quite get it. Tried to look it up but couldnt find anything.

[Scripture1]

could someone explain something I read about called ancient stacking or something. I dont quite get it. Tried to look it up but couldnt find anything.

There is a post here in the Training Grounds regarding this.

Basically, you pull the creeps out of their area around xx:53-xx:55.
If the creeps are outside their camp when xx:00 comes another set of creeps will respawn there.
So you get two sets of creeps.

This is best done with a dominated creep (using a Whispering Helm) and using him every time.
You can stack infinite times.

This process will net you loads of extra gold and can sometimes turn a game around.

[Synthix]

There is a post here in the Training Grounds regarding this.

Basically, you pull the creeps out of their area around xx:53-xx:55.
If the creeps are outside their camp when xx:00 comes another set of creeps will respawn there.
So you get two sets of creeps.

This is best done with a dominated creep (using a Whispering Helm) and using him every time.
You can stack infinite times.

This process will net you loads of extra gold and can sometimes turn a game around.

ok I get the respawn but infinate? and what does the helm have anything to do with it? you control a creep? how does it serve that huge of a purpose?

[Zingultus]

ok I get the respawn but infinate? and what does the helm have anything to do with it? you control a creep? how does it serve that huge of a purpose?

well you place the controlled creep near the ancient creep spawn so you musnt run there everytime to stack the creeps. Your controlled creep does that. You can farm in your lane, while your creep stacks the ancients.

[Klama]

A good example of this: :warb: without at least of 600 gold per minute is doing something wrong. (Note: Public)

You can get 600 GPM on a non EM game with warbeast? Public or nonpublic aside. Wow impressive, or your team didint get any goldgains at all, cause warbeast sucked it all up like a sponge. Or you stacked acients withouht the enemy noticing what makes the game pointless anywais.

[Synthix]

oh... and what exactly is an ancient? is that a normal neutral?

[Klama]

oh... and what exactly is an ancient? is that a normal neutral?

The creep spawn under the shop, where the dragons and the spiked bunneys spawn. They give the most gold per kill.

[Synthix]

so you use the control of a creep to just keep spawning them while you lane?... I must be completely off. God im bad.

[Klama]

so you use the control of a creep to just keep spawning them while you lane?... I must be completely off. God im bad.

Just use tab c click tab c click back, not hard. The minor problem with that tactic is that in every semi decent public game, it fails after about 5 min when the enemy discovers what you where doing. In priv competitive games it might work if your team is preaperd to defend your farm, and rather die then to lead the enemy anywhere near the spawn once its discovered there will be a teamfight for it, but engageing while killing them is usualy worse then fighting kongor and getting attacked. But honestly cant imagin a serious game where you can stack up creeps withouth the enemy noticing, since once you see the whispering helm on the enemy first thing you do is check the acients when near.

[Synthix]

Just use tab c click tab c click back, not hard. The minor problem with that tactic is that in every semi decent public game, it fails after about 5 min when the enemy discovers what you where doing. In priv competitive games it might work if your team is preaperd to defend your farm, and rather die then to lead the enemy anywhere near the spawn once its discovered there will be a teamfight for it, but engageing while killing them is usualy worse then fighting kongor and getting attacked. But honestly cant imagin a serious game where you can stack up creeps withouth the enemy noticing, since once you see the whispering helm on the enemy first thing you do is check the acients when near.

So just chain spawning / pulling the creeps? Idk what tab, c etc is. I have alot of personal binds. I move my camera with WASD lol.

[RobertDownyJ]

Ok so I've gone through the entire post here and I'd like to say a few things as I was in the exact same position you are in. I played EM for a long time before anyone ever told me it was a good way to enforce BAD habits and that I should stop playing it.

One thing that I like to do is play AP (all pick) games and then random right as soon as the hero pick screen pops up. I do this so that I have time to familiarize myself with my hero, and so that my team and I don't accidentally make a terribly unbalanced team. As a courtesy I will give other players on my team to swap if they really like the hero I got. All I ask is that they random so that I still get the learning effect from randoming and they get an added bonus of extra starting gold.

A great thing that this does is give me a small amount of bonus starting to help me adjust to the hero, but the major advantage that I've gained is that I tend to get more familiar with heroes faster than I would if I just played a few heroes and had to learn from what my enemy does to learn exactly what that hero does and what I need to do to counter him.

I think I should also restate what a lot of people have said before me, a good player can pick up ANY hero and get a good KDR from them. Also, focusing on CD(creep denying) and CK(Creep killing) are the easiest paths to getting better faster. My personal recommendation is to play support and focus on denies as typically speaking your creeps are closer to you than the enemy creeps and as such, easier and safer to last hit.

I don't know how to check games from just a name on the forum and what not, but anyone who checks up on me will notice that when I DO pick, I primarily pick support so my KDR is a tad on the low side, so as someone said before me a high KDR can just mean someone plays a lot of carries and a low KDR can mean that someone just plays a lot of support.

I also know that my PSR isn't very good either, but I like to think I've learned enough to give advice.

One final thing before I finish up this long post. One of the things that I learned in the last few weeks is that there are times when you really don't need to be up with your creep wave. This typically happens when you've pushed up to the enemy tower and they're killing your creeps faster than any of your creeps even have a chance to do real damage to the enemy creeps. This is a great opportunity to back up further and take a good look at your mini-map and could very well save you from a being ganked.

[LightRain]

You can't stack infinite times >.>

A) eventually the sun will die and earth will be unlivable
B) eventually the server hosting the game will degrade
C) eventually the players will die of old age/starvation from playing hon too long
D) eventually the game will be won or lost unless the people are deliberately stalling and blocking creeps from reaching either base
E)... serious response, if you have too many neutrals in one camp, they won't all clear the camp in time for another group to spawn. However, this limit is pretty big, somewhere between 5-10? I don't know the exact numbers, but it's different for each spawn location due to where it is on the map. You should really be killing the spawns before they're so stacked you can't stack anymore, anyway.

[Shwin]

You can't stack infinite times >.>

A) eventually the sun will die and earth will be unlivable
B) eventually the server hosting the game will degrade
C) eventually the players will die of old age/starvation from playing hon too long
D) eventually the game will be won or lost unless the people are deliberately stalling and blocking creeps from reaching either base
E)... serious response, if you have too many neutrals in one camp, they won't all clear the camp in time for another group to spawn. However, this limit is pretty big, somewhere between 5-10? I don't know the exact numbers, but it's different for each spawn location due to where it is on the map. You should really be killing the spawns before they're so stacked you can't stack anymore, anyway.

There's no piont stacking a crap ton of times cause it'll take you forever to clear them, unless you have ridiculous dmg and cleave/splash on you're auto attack, since the 'main' ancient normally has magic immunity for protection from AoE spells.

[LightRain]

There's no piont stacking a crap ton of times cause it'll take you forever to clear them, unless you have ridiculous dmg and cleave/splash on you're auto attack, since the 'main' ancient normally has magic immunity for protection from AoE spells.

This is why Puppet Master and Runed Axe are so good at ancient stacking, yes.

[Vulpes]

Who clears ancients with AoE Magic Damage anyways?
That would be.. Maliken (a bit) and Behemoth (firing his Ult if he is deadly underfarmed to get PKey)
Everyone else who clears Ancients does it by Autoattacking..

[Synthix]

If anyone would care to fast foward from my last game I just played ( I think you can watch them right ) It was 80 frickin minutes long. and my teammate is smack talking the whole time. He has something like 25 deaths or so at the end while my score is also on the crappy side of like 5/14/10 or something like that. Was I being a true baddie? or was the other team just fed beyond belief from corrupt dumbass.

[RogerDodger]

If anyone would care to fast foward from my last game I just played ( I think you can watch them right ) It was 80 frickin minutes long. and my teammate is smack talking the whole time. He has something like 25 deaths or so at the end while my score is also on the crappy side of like 5/14/10 or something like that. Was I being a true baddie? or was the other team just fed beyond belief from corrupt dumbass.
You are in no position to be blaming teammates for losing...

Don't ever let the thought even cross your mind.

[hakundo2]

you are just bad.

[Synthix]

I wasnt blaming anyone. it was a close game but they just had the items that we didnt.

[Eindbaas]

Best way to find out:

- how good you are
- raising your psr

is by playing with a consistent team of friends. More genuine teamwork, they will give you feedback if you do things you shouldn't do. You can review replays yourself to look back at what should have been executed better.

Another great tip I found on the forums is: play SD games. Less chance you'll find enemy teams with imba line ups. More chance your (team) players will ask what they should pick, leading to a more balanced team. More chance you'll pick a hero that you haven't played, but your team needs that hero badly. Nice opportunity to start learning him. Up to you ofcourse to play this in no stats so you will not gamble you and your team's psr when you play a new hero.

#1 rule you should keep to yourself is : stay alive
Everytime you die you lose gold, and you lose time on experience (xp) - you don't want that. If you don't have the feeling yet when you can play aggressive, then don't worry and just focus on last hitting and gaining xp.

Always keep an eye out on the minimap - try to get into the minds of your opponent and ask yourself when they would feel it is a perfect time to gank your ass. If you see someone missing on the map, be aware. Play safe. Buy a homecoming stone (teleport) incase you see your team is getting ganked on the other side of the map. You can help out quickly by teleporting to them, countering their gank. A teamplayer with good awareness is always appreciated.

Watch some Gamereplays: Video on Demands (http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showforum=3311) - where you see amazing teams playing against eachother. Observe picks and counterpicks - teamplay and execution - item builds. Who uses what and for what reason. Ask yourself many questions and find the answer. You learn quickly by doing so.

[Arisinhell]

I'm new to HoN and i think that's awesome but i believe that KDR is unfair.

Imo KDR should be removed or maybe it could be balanced a bit by counting the assists also(something like 3-4 assist = 1 kill).

KDR disencourages people from picking support heroes(cause support aren't meant to kill), makes assists look bad, and i cant imagine why someone would die to protect the carry hero.

Well if someone get a score like 1-4-15 means he played bad?
He can possible be the player of the match but thats outshined by KDR.

It also makes people greedy for kills and greatly rewards the killsteal act.
People with K>D are happy even if they lose the game..
The concept of the game is to win and not to increase your KDR

Someone also said that killsteal doesn't exist...

I agree that a kill is always a kill no matter who did it but there are occasions that your carry hero must get the kill and not that pyromancer.

Another solution to the problem would be to substitude it with a win/lose ratio.
This will balance the games lot better and the first priority will be to win the game (thus it will be rewarded) and not to killsteal your carry.


Discuss

[SaCaRoMiCeS]

1- Get your ass to "Noob only" EM games.
2- Pick Night Hound or Scout. Be selfish.
3- ????
4- PROFIT!

Now you got yourself a nice (and misleading) KD ratio, like most EM pubbers :D

[MyKiss]

You most definately need to learn how to last hit. Especially when you play a carry.
But last hitting is not your only problem. Your main problem is not being able to realize what your role is in the game. DO NOT try raising your K.D. You should focus on not dying first. Watch replays of your own games. Join noob games as to you are new to the game and maybe try playing with friends for better teamwork. But this is just my two cents.

[Kargul]

Try die less and play heros like Soul Reaper Soulstealer, and carrys ofc..

[Kargul]

I'm new to HoN and i think that's awesome but i believe that KDR is unfair.

Imo KDR should be removed or maybe it could be balanced a bit by counting the assists also(something like 3-4 assist = 1 kill).

KDR disencourages people from picking support heroes(cause support aren't meant to kill), makes assists look bad, and i cant imagine why someone would die to protect the carry hero.

Well if someone get a score like 1-4-15 means he played bad?
He can possible be the player of the match but thats outshined by KDR.

It also makes people greedy for kills and greatly rewards the killsteal act.
People with K>D are happy even if they lose the game..
The concept of the game is to win and not to increase your KDR

Someone also said that killsteal doesn't exist...

I agree that a kill is always a kill no matter who did it but there are occasions that your carry hero must get the kill and not that pyromancer.

Another solution to the problem would be to substitude it with a win/lose ratio.
This will balance the games lot better and the first priority will be to win the game (thus it will be rewarded) and not to killsteal your carry.


Discuss
You can see the assists in stats aswell

[Arisinhell]

1- Get your ass to "Noob only" EM games.
2- Pick Night Hound or Scout. Be selfish.
3- ????
4- PROFIT!

Now you got yourself a nice (and misleading) KD ratio, like most EM pubbers :D

Thats what i'm talking about..

This phenomena greatly reduces the depth of the game..and HoN is a team game with no room with selfish minds.

I dont play game to raise my KD..personally i dont care about KD.
Im really new to the game but i've been playing dota for 5 years and Ive participated in several local tournaments.

To summarise i believe that KDR affects negatively some players gamestyle
,by making them to take wrong decisions(to pubstomp 4 posts above) and is categorises the players with misleading(as mentioned above) KD ratio.

Peace out

[noodle0117]

this is how i learn

1. Get owned by enemy hero
2. Look at enemy hero's items/playstyle
3. Play the hero that owned u last game and try to do what he did.
4. If you own (unlikely) then congrats
5. If you don't own, then watch replay to see how they countered you.
6. Try the tactic of how they countered you the next time you see the opponent pick a hero that owned u in the first game
7. Repeat

[Randomguy360]

play zephyr, max tornados and gust

2 or 3 people try to gank you? ulti, let whirlwinds do as much dps as possible before eating them, TRIPLE KILL!!!!

[Klama]

You are in no position to be blaming teammates for losing...

Don't ever let the thought even cross your mind.

That is completly wrong, just cause you are bad it dasnt mean you are solo responsible for loosing a game, it is allways team effort. You win or loose as team.

[TreeHorse]

Thanks everyone for your wonderful input...