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OJPhoenix
02-16-2010, 01:32 PM
Robes of Combat Sorcery
Mid Game Ability Relevant Item

http://i38.tinypic.com/2v8fsjl.jpg Apprentice Robe 450g *
http://i36.tinypic.com/2d59a8.jpg Neophyte's Book 1000g
http://i33.tinypic.com/kci23l.jpg Manatube 875g
http://i38.tinypic.com/ofvxad.jpg Recipe 925g *
=
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/orange_guy_1/th_BlueRobeSilverBorder.jpg (modified dota image)
Robes of Combat Sorcery 3250g
30 Cast Speed
4% Cooldown Reduction +4% per Passive Hero Ability
100% Mana Regeneration
15 Intelligence
20% Silence duration reduction

Passive Ability: Sorcerous Adrenaline
Activates each time user Casts a Spell/Ability
+50% Mana Regeneration
Buff lasts 30% of duration of Cooldown (not counting cooldown reduction from items)

Item Abilities do not receice Cooldown Reduction, however, Item Abilities that cost 100 or more mana will activate Sorcereous Adrenalin. (list of items that will trigger the ability will be provided blow)

DamageInq pointed out that Ultimate abilites that trigger the passive could result in gaining the buff for a potentially lengthy time. It is intended that Ultimate's do still trigger it, the ones with long enough cooldowns generally cost a fair bit of mana, seeing as you only get an extra 50% Mana Regeneration I don't see that its going to alleviate the cost much more than a normal ability that you will use heaps more often and spend/lose more mana on. However perhaps it would need adjusting for Ultimates not sure, dont care about the numbers too much, I'll let S2 do that, its relatively good enough :P

Purpose:
To create a Mid Game ability relevant and supporting item that any int/caster can use effectively. All other ability affecting items are late game and situationally useful. The current Mid Game items for int/caster heroes, only Nome's has anything to do with your abilities, and all are limited in use, from the mana intensive Codex to the support hero Nome's.

Components:
Only Mana related Item's included, this is not a survivability Item, its to benefit Abilities for Int heroes and is constructed accordingly, grants mana, mana regeneration, cast speed and cooldown reduction, everything is relative to Abilities. Int instead of Direct Mana because it's an Int Hero Item and relies on % based Mana Regeneration, thus providing less benefit to non Int's.
* Apprentice Robe is not the item I actually wish to use, unfortunately there is currently no Basic Item gives Cast Speed.
However I wish to use this: Gloves of the Wise (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=77550) (+20 Cast Speed, 600g) by drjoni as a component instead. (Also part of the reason I came up with this Item was due to his suggestion, thnx drjoni)
This would change the price, Recipe cost would be adjusted to keep the price at 3250g.

The Item might feel complete to me but of course I really want to here some feed back on both the idea and the numbers from others. :)

Purpose:
Int Heroes are usually Spell dependent and rely little on Items, and very few Items actually relate to abilities.
:RestorationStone: :NomesWisdom: :StaffOfTheMaster: :BehemothsHeart: (Int Version) are the only Items that have anything to do with Abilities. The problem is these Items are limited in use, and well they don't do what this does.
Okay :BehemothsHeart: (Int) does but I don't think it should, see below.

Team fight support for Caster Heroes. What good are you throwing your spells all at the first guy only to run out of Mana and have Spells on cooldown when his backup arrives? The item doesn't provide a massive benefit for either, only a little bit, a bit of extra mana and you can use your abilities slightly sooner. Being more useful to everyone and yourself. Also because most Int Heroes don't really need many Items, bit of survival, more mana, thats about all they need, other than that theres limited and in my opinion poor, selection of Items related to Abilities.

There is no counter to Silence at the moment. You might be able to Purge it off, but unless you have :elec: Electrician, I doubt your going to get a :NullfireBlade: Nullfire for it, it isn't much use to an Int Hero, and the Ability has limited charges.
However unsure about the Silence reduction, I felt this Item would give Int Heroes more of a chance to use their abilities before getting crushed into oblivion hence Silence reduction would go well with it. I strongly dislike not being able to fight back, this Item lets you quickly get the most out what time you do get to fight back should you be backed into that scenario. It's not a save all though, you need to be good with your abilities.

So those other ability related Items whats wrong with them?
:BehemothsHeart: 5500g for a Huge amount of Health, Cooldown Reduction, and a bit of Cast Speed. You don't usually need that much Health on an Int hero. I'm not paying that much for some -CD and CS. You shouldn't have this much to spare either, your carry is Item dependant, he should have it.
:StaffOfTheMaster: 4300g decent all stats Health and Mana that everyone can use, yes yes, but the Ability upgrade is what makes or breaks the deal. Heroes like :pyro: :witc: get at most +200 Damage... thats pathetic, especially compared to some of the other boosts out there. Like :devo: and :andr: then its worth getting, too many its this is useless on.
:NomesWisdom: Support Hero Item, no one else is really supposed to get it.
:RestorationStone: 5300g costs nearly as much as :BehemothsHeart: considerably more useful for Int Hero who usually have the more powerful abilities, but unless your spells are worth casting twice in a row AND you can actually afford the massive Mana Cost, then its worth it. Late Game Item when you do have the Mana and you need to throw more spells, is when to get this. Unless your Ultimate is really awesome, like :hell: maybe.

Int Heroes with Passives:
:blac: Blacksmith 1
:glac: Glacius 1
:thun: Thunderbringer 1
:pyro: Pyromancer 1
:vind: Vindicator 1
:defi: Defiler 1
:pupp: Puppet Master 1
:soulr: Soul Reaper 2

So Soul Reaper with this item gets a 12% Cooldown Reduction. The others on the list get 8% and all the other Int Heroes with 4 Castable Abilities get 4%.
I wanted the Item beneficial to all Int Heroes relatively equally, the less Abilities you can Cast, the more reliant you are on them and the more frequently you need to use them, thus more Cooldown.

Item Abilities with 100 Mana Cost or Higher:
:Astrolabe: Astroblade - 150 Mana Cost
:BarrierIdol: Barrior Idol - 100 Mana Cost
:RestorationStone: Restoration Stone - 375 Mana Cost
:KuldrasSheepstick: Kuldra's Sheepstick - 100 Mana Cost
:FrostfieldPlate: Frostfield Plate - 100 Mana Cost
:Codex: Codex - 180/160/140/120/100 Mana Cost
:GeometersBane: Geometer's Bane - 165 Mana Cost
:Hellflower: Hellflower - 100 Mana Cost

All of these abilities would trigger the Sorcerous Adrenaline Ability. After making a long list of every non consumable Item with ability that can be activated, only these Items seemed to grant a strong enough ability to warrant triggering the passive.
:Stormspirit: Stormspirit was the only other Item I would personally add to this list, unsure about it. Costs 75 Mana, Cooldown of 30 seconds, feedback?
:Puzzlebox: Puzzlebox only Costs 50 Mana and has a long 90 second cooldown which would grant the buff for too long for too little Mana spent.

EDIT:
- Price Increased to by 500 to 3250 as Raskalnikov convinced me my Item gave too much for too little gold.

Raskalnikov
02-16-2010, 03:15 PM
Great idea but gives waaay too much for the price. The cooldown reductions and cast speed boosts would be broken on some int heroes. Soulreaper, Blacksmith and Thunder come to mind immediately. And the mana regen is too strong.

It's better than SotM on most heroes but it only costs 2750g. It should cost at least 4.5k, or the numbers should be nerfed. I'll reserve my vote for now.

JONI
02-16-2010, 04:24 PM
Unique, interresting consept. T-up.

Twilight33
02-16-2010, 04:43 PM
i like it. simple, sweet, and fills a niche. the essence of a perfect item suggestion.

OJPhoenix
02-17-2010, 12:47 AM
Great idea but gives waaay too much for the price. The cooldown reductions and cast speed boosts would be broken on some int heroes. Soulreaper, Blacksmith and Thunder come to mind immediately. And the mana regen is too strong.

It's better than SotM on most heroes but it only costs 2750g. It should cost at least 4.5k, or the numbers should be nerfed. I'll reserve my vote for now.

You make a point there, perhaps I have given it a bit too much for not enough cost. The reason I didn't think it was too cheap compared to :StaffOfTheMaster: is because you buy that for the ultimate boost, which on some heroes is heaps worth the cost, like :vood: and his triple bouncing ultimate, I'll get it on him every day no matter what.

I'll adjust the price to a bit over 3k and see how others feel about the matter as well, and I'll continue to think about it, I try to never get too stuck into my numbers :)

SLASHER`
02-17-2010, 12:51 AM
Very nice. T-UP

lifesapity
02-17-2010, 05:31 AM
Nice item OJ :D

t-u

Damage
02-17-2010, 06:37 AM
Nice.

So does Sorcerous Adrenaline trigger from casting ults? That's like a 30-60 second buff for most heroes.

nufaQ
02-17-2010, 06:50 AM
nice idea - small nerv needed

still voting yes

OJPhoenix
02-17-2010, 07:56 AM
Nice.

So does Sorcerous Adrenaline trigger from casting ults? That's like a 30-60 second buff for most heroes.

The idea was that yes it would trigger from using Ultimates, I realise that it could potentially be quite a long bonus, but the bonus is only 50% more mana regeneration for 30% of the cooldown, I can't imagine it being all that overpowered, its intended to aid regaining mana from casting and Ultimates tend to cost a fair bit of mana. If they don't, they don't usually have a cooldown and act like a normal ability almost.

I'll leave it to S2 to decide if the buff would need a nerf from long cooldown Ultimates, as I said though I can't imagine it giving a whole lot with only 50%. Opinion noted, will make a note of it in the main post.

Loquacious
02-17-2010, 12:56 PM
I like this. We need more items!

It might need some balancing, though. ;D

yyr_
02-17-2010, 07:28 PM
love all your ideas. Good stuff.

EustaceBagge
03-02-2010, 11:54 AM
I think the cooldown reduction per passive should be removed, and the Passive Ability can last way too long. An idea for the Passive: +25% mana regeration per spell on cooldown. For example: Pyromancer casts his stun, he gains 25% mana regeneration until it finishes cooldown. If he casts stun, nuke, and ulti, he would gain 75% mana regen. Mabye remove the silence reduction too, its out of place. Perhaps add it to another item that works with this.

HeLL_KiLLer
03-02-2010, 07:47 PM
Good idea, I voted yes. BUT the item requirements should be changed, it's almost the same thing as Eu's Scepter Of Divinity (I don't remember its name in HoN =D)!

archkyle
03-02-2010, 08:09 PM
S2, make it happen

Willza
03-02-2010, 11:04 PM
i would go with it if you make it auto combine but take out Recipe 925g *
and put in the 2100 all stats thingo you can get then it should be worth the stats and so on the price would be 4425g

then it should fit in nicely and the cost should make the blance

OJPhoenix
03-03-2010, 11:20 AM
@ EustaceBagge:
I don't think you did the math on that one. You suggest my +50% mana regen for 30% of the cooldown is way too long, then you say I should change it to +25% mana regen for 100% of the cooldown?! you do realise you halved the effect but more than tripled the duration? in other words your suggesting a BUFF. Silence reduction is not out of place because the item is all about casting abilities, pretty certain less silence involves more casting, which is what the item is for.

@Wilza:
Using the +10 all stats item is a pretty good idea actually, but I'm hesitant to give the item any stat other than Int. I don't want any survivability in the item, none whatsoever. So I'll keep it out, but I will keep it in mind as a possibility.

snakepliski1
03-03-2010, 04:14 PM
This suggestion is great. I would love to see this implemented and tested.

Also I like the "merge with Blessed Orb concept", but I suggest it be done like this - item keeps its current components and recipe cost but can be combined with Blessed orb with (or without recipe) into a more powerful item that adds stats (and thus survivability). Final item price would be ~5.5k gold. Item name can be Blessed Robe of Combat Sorcery :D or Blessed Robe of the Magi or something like that.

Willza
03-03-2010, 08:59 PM
well ok thats ok then why dont you make it go take the itea from the SS that cost 2700 int iteam. and take out the Robes and Book. and replace with this one.



http://i38.tinypic.com/2v8fsjl.jpg Apprentice Robe 450g * -take out
http://i36.tinypic.com/2d59a8.jpg Neophyte's Book 1000g -take out
:AcolytesStaff: AcolytesStaff: 2700g -put in
http://i33.tinypic.com/kci23l.jpg Manatube 875g
http://i38.tinypic.com/ofvxad.jpg Recipe 925g *
=
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/orange_guy_1/th_BlueRobeSilverBorder.jpg (modified dota image) make the cost 4500g



or take out the



http://i38.tinypic.com/2v8fsjl.jpg Apprentice Robe 450g *
http://i36.tinypic.com/2d59a8.jpg Neophyte's Book 1000g -take out
http://i33.tinypic.com/kci23l.jpg Manatube 875g -take out
:AcolytesStaff: AcolytesStaff: 2700g -put in
http://i38.tinypic.com/ofvxad.jpg Recipe 925g *
=
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/orange_guy_1/th_BlueRobeSilverBorder.jpg (modified dota image) makes it 4075


added this one also *Edit*

http://i38.tinypic.com/2v8fsjl.jpg Apprentice Robe 450g *
http://i36.tinypic.com/2d59a8.jpg Neophyte's Book 1000g
http://i33.tinypic.com/kci23l.jpg Manatube 875g
:AcolytesStaff: AcolytesStaff: 2700g -put in
http://i38.tinypic.com/ofvxad.jpg Recipe 925g * -- take out
=
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/orange_guy_1/th_BlueRobeSilverBorder.jpg (modified dota image) makes it 5025
let me know what you think

OJPhoenix
03-04-2010, 08:53 AM
@ [WoT]SnakePliskin :
Thats a pretty cool idea, but one I doubt would be a necessary addition to the item pool, but I will keep it in mind if I feel such an upgrade further down the track would be good. Similar to the way Thunderclaw becomes Charged Hammer.

@ Willza :
I can't believe my original post didn't contain why I chose the items I did and not one of the ones you've suggested. Don't get me wrong though, your ideas aren't bad at all, I very much so considered using the Acolyte staff in the item. What made me come to a decision was where in the game progress I intended the item to sit; the answer: Mid Game.

Everything I mentioned revolves around this to a degree, all the mentioned Ability related items currently in game (cept Nome's) are late game. Nome's is early-mid, but at most you should have a designated hero getting it for the team, usually the support. Even then it doesn't actually affect your abilities but rather it works with them, mine does both.

Acolyte's staff therefore in my opinion gave far too much int and cost too much for a Mid Game ability relevant item as is this items purpose :)

Willza
03-04-2010, 11:29 PM
ya i was thinking the same thing with the cost but when you look at it just say i play :ophe: alot so my normal iteam to get are

:Marchers:'s and 2x mana pots

then get

:WhisperingHelm:
then :NomesWisdom:
thats about 4000-4200 k gold and i can get that by 10 mins in, is mid game

so if we can work out a cost so it can come into the game with about that cost i think it would be a good price for it 5k is a bit to much but around or close to 4k would be great for it even if you make the Scroll you combine them more say 1350 or so... :)


i think i might have it let me know
:ApprenticesRobe:-450
:NeophytesBook:-1000
:Manatube:-875
:PickledBrain:-1000
=3325
or add the 925/ for the scroll 4250

you could make it auto combine if you wanted

edited;
as with the stats shown here i beleave it should cost about 4k gold at least

30 Cast Speed
4% Cooldown Reduction +4% per Passive Hero Ability
100% Mana Regeneration
15 Intelligence
20% Silence duration reduction

Ryper7
03-05-2010, 10:29 AM
i have to say its an interesting concept that fills a nice niche for heavy casters/nukers. so ill give it a t-up for you :)

OJPhoenix
03-05-2010, 11:38 AM
You make a good point Wilza, and now I'll give my reason for not adding a brain, I wanted it to benefit Int heroes most, and honestly they benefit more from gaining Int derived mana, wheres as non Int heroes gain more from gaining direct mana, it is after all cheaper. So for that reason I wanted Int not Brain and well I didn't see a need for both, possibility perhaps, but I noticed no item uses more than 4 components, recipe or auto so unless thats just a coincidence from DotA, i can't add a brain to what Ive got to increase the cost and power.

If there was an item that gave Int between a Neophyte's Book and an Acolyte's Staff, I would use that instead of Book for sure, I simply feel what I've used was the best with what there is, aside increasing the Recipe cost, I see little I can change.

SilverStars
03-08-2010, 01:59 AM
It's a really cool idea. I thought it was really unique, as an item that adds cast speed, until I found this (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=76191)

OJPhoenix
03-13-2010, 11:37 AM
Ah yes well they are quite similar, when I found that I was quite ><
but they have their differences, mine is a little more focused on casting & doesn't help non ints very much where his does & gives survivability.

Maybe an item somewhere between the 2 will get created in the game? *shrug*

Grim_Death
03-18-2010, 08:11 AM
going popular anytime soon oj?

SLASHER`
03-18-2010, 08:28 PM
yeah
request for move to popular suggestions!

Zarent
03-21-2010, 10:43 AM
Moved to popular suggestions!

Bwned
04-11-2010, 02:30 PM
Awesome item, T-Up! And hopefully Gloves of the Wise will make it into the game, Cast Speed is too rare :( Otherwise I guess the Apprentice Robe can be skipped and replaced with a pricier recipe.

artiglesias
05-01-2010, 10:57 AM
loved it!
though its to cheap

MADD411
05-04-2010, 02:17 PM
I like it, seems like it might turn pyro into a machine gun, but it's still a very interesting item. T-up.