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OJPhoenix
02-13-2010, 01:33 PM
Flamestriker
http://99edhproblems.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/fireshrieker.png?w=276&h=203
(might look something like this? Fireshrieker from MTG)

A magic imbued weapon, said to use power from the dragons, that shoots explosive fire that can cause multiple enemies to suffer its attack.
My perhaps unorthodox attempt at creating an item with Splash.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/orange_guy_1/Firebrand.jpg Firebrand 2400g
http://i38.tinypic.com/2upwcaf.jpg Major Totem 540g
http://i35.tinypic.com/hs6cnp.jpg Broadsword 1200g
http://i38.tinypic.com/ofvxad.jpg Recipe 260g
=
http://web.dota-allstars.com/static/images/dota/BTNStaffOfSilence.gif (maybe? taken from DotA)

Flamestriker 4400g
Deactivated: (default setting)
10 Strength
20 Agility
10 Intelligence
33 Damage
10% Movement Speed Aura (700AOE)

Activated:
10 Strength
20 Agility
10 Intelligence
33 Attack Speed
10% Movement Speed Aura (700AOE)
100% Splash (300AOE)
-60% Damage (All Damage)

Splash and Cleave are 2 different effects, well they were in DotA and HoN replicates most of the mechanics.
Splash : Ranged Area Effect Attacks
Cleave : Melee Area Effect Attacks
Runed Axe contains a Cleave effect, it only benefits Melee heroes, currently there is no Ranged alternative.
Flamestriker contains a Splash effect that will work only for Ranged heroes.
It was just brought to my attention that Hammerstorm's Mighty Swing ability says in the Description SPLASH, I'm going to go over to the Remake forum and get them to change this, HoN is supposed to be like DotA, Splash deals the damage in a circle around the main target, Cleave deals in it a cone from swinging a big weapon. Mighty Swing deals damage in a cone, not area, thus making it Cleave despite incorrect Description. See Here (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=78543).

(considered a -150 Range when active, due to the 'effective' increase from the Splash effect)
(if you noticed and are wondering, yes one mode has Damage and the other Attack Speed, its not a typo, explained below)

Loquacious Pointed out that Splash should not work with Moon Queen and her Multi-strike Ability, and I agree entirely thus my intention is that they wont work together.

Animation while activated: Turns attack into some kind of Fireball that explodes upon impact, something like that.

Item Purpose: Pushing

The Item was specifically created with the intention of granting the advantage for Pushing / Killing Creeps more than killing Heroes. All targets hit by your attack will take 40% of your damage, thus multiple targets are needed to actually make good use it.

No Item has ever been included in HoN or DotA with Splash because it is considered to be somewhat Imba, and for good reason, Cleave is quite powerful, as easily shown by Hammerstorm.

It was also created to give Ranged Heroes a late game means of dealing with mass amounts of creeps the way Melee can with a Runed Axe, such an Item does not exist. Only 2/3 Items benefit killing numerous targets for Ranged: Thunderclaw/Charged Hammer and Mock of Brilliance. Neither of them scale, making them vastly less effective when you lose your Barracks and must defend against numerous powerful creeps. Thusly I feel that my item would fill in a current gap in the Item pool. Especially for those Heroes that struggle at creep killing late game.

Stats:
I wanted the Item to somewhat reflect Runed Axe without making a copy, Runed Axe has Regeneration that benefits everyone, so I decided to give my Item Stats, that also benefit everyone. More Agility because I believe Agility Heroes are more Likely to get the item over Intelligence. The Damage and Attack Speed swap was also to help balance the Item out. Frequent small damage to multiple targets its a proven effective creep killing method, Mock makes good example of this, following that, the Activated version is faster while weaker with good splash. I figured giving the Damage with non-splash further encourages using Normal mode to kill Heroes and Splash mode to kill Creeps, thusly more balance. So I hope.

Components:
Fire felt like a good way to create splash, Agility and Attack Speed also felt good, so Firebrand felt perfect.
Major Totem allowed me to include Intelligence and help give stats variety, and Major Totem needs more love.
Broadsword isn't particular, I needed damage from somewhere, roughly 20 felt good, and this item keeps the Price very closed to Runed Axe.
Cost is about the same as Runed Axe as intended.

Calculations:
In Splash mode all targets affected will take 40% of your damage, thus the number of targets you hit results in a net total damage of 40% x Targets.
Flamestriker:
2 Targets = 80% ; 3 Targets = 120% ; 4 Targets = 160% ; 5 Targets = 200% ;
So unless you hit 3 Heroes with the Splash, your doing less damage than Normal Mode, this was hopefully to balance the idea of Splash. Clearly if you can actually hit 3 - 5 Heroes with your attack your going to get a nice benefit to your damage, but its not NEARLY as good as Runed Axe which is 100% + 40% x Additional Targets.
Runed Axe:
2 Targets = 140% ; 3 Targets = 180% ; 4 Targets = 220% ; 5 Targets = 260% ;
Not as powerful, intentionally, Melee comes with downsides that don't cause this to be Imba, Ranged Heroes however do not suffer such penalties by default.

Author Notes:
I played DotA for ages and I always dissapointed that no such Ranged Splash Item exists, and still doesn't.
How did I come up with the idea? I was browsing an Image thread about Hero Crossovers, this one caught my eye as being awesome:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2528/honcrossover11.jpg
[Graphics] Heroes of Newerth - Crossovers! (Mixing Heroes) (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=71259) by iHazard (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=950730)
As such later that night I came up with the idea of making a Flamethrower like weapon that would include Ranged Splash. From there I got the idea of turning it On and Off, the Off would be something like a concentrated blue flame that had more power but no splash, and the On version would have an explosive red/orange flame with considerably less power but well explosive splash lol, and from there it turned into what you see here, name not Flamethrower because it didn't feel HoN enough :p

Woot. Man its been a while since I suggested anything. Well in actuality I haven't suggested anything in HoN yet, my lack of post count indicates toward my lack of forum posting (I read lots though) but I used to suggest multiple things on the DotA forum as OrangeGuy1 :D Recently went back to find my account doesn't seem to exist o_O?
(Hope I got everything right according to the Rules I did read them lol)

Lord_Pudly
02-13-2010, 01:54 PM
No Item has ever been included in HoN or DotA with Splash

Runed axe?


Edit: nvm, realized you were talking about ranged cleave.

Zann
02-13-2010, 01:56 PM
Mh I dont see the point with this.

Runed Axe + Stormspirit/Firebrand/Frostburn = Same Effect?

OJPhoenix
02-13-2010, 02:00 PM
WoW okay I didn't realise this had to be spelt out but apparently it does, the splash I'm refering to works only for RANGED Heroes, the Cleave on Runed Axe is only for MELEE.

Splash = Ranged Area Effect Attacks
Cleave = Melee Area Effect Attacks

The point is Splash does not exist in an item, Runed as contains Cleave. Cleave is a MELEE effect only. Splash is the Ranged equivalent.

SLASHER`
02-13-2010, 09:45 PM
I don't see any problem with the splash being passive as long as it's less than Runed Axe

serrath
02-13-2010, 10:36 PM
Runed axe doesn't do splash damage for ranged heroes?

Viziroth
02-13-2010, 11:27 PM
looks awesome as is. and your right that agi would probably get it over int as most int heroes usually already have a pushing tool.

PoopyDesires
02-13-2010, 11:32 PM
Runed axe doesn't do splash damage for ranged heroes?

Hurrrrrrrrrrr.

Anyways T-Up, good, fun item. Definitely a nice first item for a few heroes.

Grim_Death
02-14-2010, 03:28 AM
T-Up, love the concept of being able to turn it on and off...
it would definatly throw some pesky pushers into the game, even if the hero doesnt totally fit

Mijy
02-14-2010, 04:02 AM
As you said, since there as never really been ranged cleave since dota started, its always hurt the ranged guys for farming in the long run, where as any mele hero has been able to get ruined axe/ cleave and instantly get their items so much faster.

Definately an item that should be introduced into hon, even if it isnt this one. so long as there is ranged spash.

MTizzy
02-15-2010, 01:05 AM
Interesting Item idea, especailly ranged slash. Strange choice of icon though lol

Grim_Death
02-15-2010, 06:51 AM
bump

jol1nar1
02-15-2010, 10:56 AM
hey oj can u make another item suggestion for a defensive item?
now that we have deadwood's ulti so strong early game we need a counter such as headdress is for int hero nukes.

something like

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_MysticVestments.jpg

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Ringmail.jpg

+ recipe 400
=
a toggle item that can be
6 magic armor
6 armor
or
10 magic armor
or
10 armor

10 magic armor could be removed so its only first and last.
would be useful if they have a pyro and a deadwood for example.
this is jut a idea. needs more balance and price fixing.

OJPhoenix
02-15-2010, 10:59 AM
aw and here I thought someone had posted about my item and possibly voted :C

as for your suggestion, I'll think about it, but I would like to caution you against such a suggestion, putting the ability to block/reduce magical and physical damage into a single item could easily be too multipurpose and override the need for people to get the the current items such as headress, but like I said I'll think about it and see what I can come up with :)

EDIT: but uh for the record, counter deadwood ulti with more hp and armor, they exist, altho there isn't any medium armor giving item like there is headdress, its usually covered by Helm of the Black Legion reducing attack damage a bit at a time, until deadwood came a long there wasn't really any big physical damage hits, and currently about the only real armor giving items are Shield of the Five and Daemonic Breastplate, the first doesn't do much, and the second costs a lot.

jol1nar1
02-15-2010, 11:23 AM
aw and here I thought someone had posted about my item and possibly voted :C

as for your suggestion, I'll think about it, but I would like to caution you against such a suggestion, putting the ability to block/reduce magical and physical damage into a single item could easily be too multipurpose and override the need for people to get the the current items such as headress, but like I said I'll think about it and see what I can come up with :)

im still thinking about your item. the fact is however you look at it ranged heroes have it easy. easier to ck/cd, a safe range to do this without fear of getting nuked. easier early game and more chances of survival when a team battle goes up.
the negative damage is a good touch but still i think ranged heroes don't really need this.
i'd rather have more heroes with abilities as puppet has. (how old storm spirit was. he had the same skill as puppet am i right?)

as for my item i already edited my first post to add
"10 magic armor could be removed so its only first and last."
so it would be only

6 magic armor
6 armor
or
10 armor

OJPhoenix
02-15-2010, 11:37 AM
I edited my post too: EDIT: but uh for the record, counter deadwood ulti with more hp and armor, they exist, altho there isn't any medium armor giving item like there is headdress, its usually covered by Helm of the Black Legion reducing attack damage a bit at a time, until deadwood came a long there wasn't really any big physical damage hits, and currently about the only real armor giving items are Shield of the Five and Daemonic Breastplate, the first doesn't do much, and the second costs a lot

Everything you said about ranged heroes is correct, which is precisely why I had to penalise the splash, giving them a runed axe so to speak would be way too good, but they really do lack farming abilities later on, melee heroes can pick up cleave and have an easier time dispatching the creeps. Ranged heroes have no such item, charged hammer is attack speed dependant, only hits 3 targets, and doesn't scale at all, set damage all game, becoming less and less effective.

Damage
02-16-2010, 09:54 AM
Nice concept. Similar to my suggestion.

Looks balanced from what I can see. Voted yes.

jol1nar1
02-16-2010, 10:17 AM
well i changed my mind. good item and adds something unique.
voted yes because ias and +ms items can never go wrong. but i think the aura should be removed and ms should be applied only on item owner.

edit: grammar :/

OJPhoenix
02-16-2010, 10:24 AM
yeah I'm unsure about the movespeed as an aura, I did it because I figure it helps the pushing thing everyone moves faster thus the purpose of the item, but its not a big deal.

Thnx for vote :)

Loquacious
02-17-2010, 01:02 PM
Please don't argue about the terminology. It's not as if someone has a wiki about all this (they probably do 9.9).

Anyways, great idea. I knew what you were talking about and, yeah. As long as Moon Queen can't use it for bounces, I'm gravy.

OJPhoenix
02-17-2010, 03:25 PM
Quite right, I shouldn't sound so insulting to someone who simply doesn't know what they are. I will alter the Main Post to explain them in a more friendly manner.

Agreed on point of Moon Queen, will put that in the Main Post too.

OhBob
02-17-2010, 06:34 PM
Important suggestion. I already T-Up, but I hope you do this: Remove damage decrease when activated and put a fixed value for splash. Don't make things too easy for arachna, something like 75 physical damage in area would be enough to farm.

OhBob
02-17-2010, 06:37 PM
Just because this is not a killing item, it's a farming item. And that way your damage for attack speed change between on and off would fit better. And you would be able to hit them hard.

Just a thing: 33 Damage = ~2400 gold, 33 Attack Speed = ~1000 gold So, yea.

OJPhoenix
02-17-2010, 07:34 PM
I'm trying to help all those ranged heroes out there that can't kill creeps late game and add something that doesn't exist.
Arachna is made to kill heroes, usually 1 at a time. This does NOT help her do that, well it does, everything helps a bit, but it doesn't help kill 1 hero very much. No more than anything else she can already buy.
The damage reduction is so that it doesn't help Arachna...
Set damage in an area exists already, Thunderclaw, it doesn't scale into late game and only hits 3 targets, need more than this to kill creeps late game.

I think you compared Damage cost to Attack Speed cost? When you lose the Damage and gain Attack Speed you also get Splash, a massive damage boost when hitting 3 or more targets... I'm not really sure what your point was.

You confuse me o_O

Megas_
02-17-2010, 09:03 PM
I like the concept, but the stats look very similar to those of geometers.

10 int
10 str
30 agi
10% move speed

10 int
10 str
20 agi
10% move speed (aura)

I dont know, it doesnt feel right. But aside from that i like the idea so thumbs up

Grim_Death
02-21-2010, 07:44 AM
bump

H_Mantis
03-01-2010, 11:09 PM
Yesses.

snakepliski1
03-03-2010, 06:28 PM
well i changed my mind. good item and adds something unique.
voted yes because ias and +ms items can never go wrong. but i think the aura should be removed and ms should be applied only on item owner.

I agree with this.

So Flamestriker analysis by SnakePliskin?


Recipe components

Firebrand (2400 gold)
+6 Strength
+15 Agility
+10% Movement Speed
+15 Attack Speed

Major Totem (540 gold)
+4 All Stats

Broadsword (1200 gold)
+18 Damage

Recipe (260 gold)

Total 4400 gold
Flamestriker
Deactivated: (default setting)
+10 Strength
+20 Agility
+10 Intelligence
+33 Damage
+10% Movement Speed Aura (700AOE)

Activated:
+10 Strength
+20 Agility
+10 Intelligence
+33 Attack Speed
+10% Movement Speed Aura (700AOE)
100% Splash (300AOE)
-60% Damage (All Damage)1. NERF Intelligence stats (or remove it alltogether) or keep stats and make it cost mana to use it when activated (~10 mana, 1 INT point gives 13 mana so 10 INT is for 13 shoots). Only major totem gives intelligence (4) in all items and I feel 6 INT for 260 gold is OP. (2xMark of the Novice = 6 INT for 300 gold)

2. Nerf 33 damage gain when off. This item is intended for range AGI heroes so lets do simple math; 20 agility = 20 damage + 33 damage = 55 damage. Firebrand gives 15 AGI and Major Totem gives 4 AGI (total 19 damage) and Broadsword gives 18 damage. That is 37 damage total. For 260 gold recipe you double Broadsword damage (19+2*18 = 55) which is INSANE! Note that Shieldbraker gives 60 damage (5 MORE), and -5 armor for same money and NOTHING else.
My suggestion is - make it 20 bonus damage (2 over Broadsword).

3. Remove MS Aura; make it give MS only to owner. Or make it give MS bonus when its off, remove MS bonus when its on. Current metagame has huge problem with range AGI carries moving too fast/having reliable escape mechanisms. Item making them and everyone around them moving (read escape) even faster is BAD.
If MS aura stays and both teams have a player with this item gameplay becomes even faster and gameplay is fast as it is already.

4. I guess 33 attack speed is OK. Since this item is intended for range AGI heroes simple math goes like this; 20 agility = 20 attackspeed + 33 attack speed = 55 attack speed; This is ok since when this item is ON damage is severely reduced. Warpcleft gives 55 IAS for 2100 gold and this item gives stats, MS and splash damage for double the price.

I like the idea very much. But the reason why this has not been implemented yet - :corr:, :wild:, :valk:, :slit:, :moon:, :fors:, :souls:. These heroes already move fast and have reliable farming/pushing mechanisms. Giving them access to this item makes them GODLIKE and ruins the game.
Agility heroes that should benefit from this item are :arac: and :andr:. That is right; TWO heroes.

Cheers!

OJPhoenix
03-04-2010, 12:05 PM
I don't see that big of a problem with the +6 Int, sure its really good gold for money buts it hardly feels like a big deal, I want Int heroes to be able to get this too, less than 10 Int might discourage them even more.

The damage hardly feels OP either, first off theres a loss of 33 Attack Speed to get the 33 Damage, secondly, even with the Agility bonus it still gives less damage than a Runed Axe, I didn't think it needed to be any less?

Same deal with the Attack Speed, theres a significant loss of damage that is only made up for when attacking 3+ targets. But perhaps I could solve all 3 issue's by reducing the the amount of Agility? Maybe remove Major Totem for some Int and have the item give both Int and Agility, even though Nullfire Blade kinda does that.

I can see what your saying about the movespeed and those Agi heroes you listed, perhaps the mentioned stat changes would help. Unless I remove firebrand as a compoment the movespeed bonus will stay, and aura or not those guys will still be faster, aura at least makes it team helpful. And if I remove firebrand and major totem I almost might as well start again. Still, changing Major Totem for Int might be a good step yes?

RowSkin
04-16-2010, 12:01 AM
I love the idea! I have felt that Hon has needed this for a long time.

A couple of things I'm not sure about though: the major totem and the ms aura.
I would sugest changing the major totem to neophites book but that is used in so many items already so I am not sure what you would use instead. Also Runed Axe is quite a bit harder to to build.

Koiuy
05-04-2010, 07:24 AM
A big gulp of information but all needed. It's also good you picked on something that wasn't ever suggested - your splash weapon for ranged heroes -
T-Up

MADD411
05-04-2010, 12:02 PM
yes
yes
yes?

GauntElakor
09-17-2010, 04:56 AM
Diversity is the name of the game, and this item gives more choices and possibilities.
I approve.

RUSty_
09-22-2010, 04:08 AM
there sure were some troll posts lol. Umm splash is an interesting concept. I believe splash damage can work with melee heroes too (or atleast the concept from War3.) I would use a totally different item build up (without firebrand for a start) but I will vote up on the concept alone.

squall3904
02-12-2011, 06:06 AM
I'd think the item would be better suited for int heroes who could use help farming late game when the creeps are stronger than their nukes/other abilities. maybe changing the item around so it is better for int heroes would make more sense but that's just my opinion however T-up for the idea love the concept of splash.

rayven
02-12-2011, 06:14 AM
I voted yes, mainly because I've always been wondering why there is no splash dmg for ranged heros.