Wand of Divination [Reworked]

[serrath]

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_ManaBattery.jpg
Mana Battery - 210

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Manatube.jpg
Mana Tube - 875

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_GuardianRing.jpg
Guardian Ring - 175

Recipe - 800

Aura:
Radius - 950
+75% Mana Regeneration
+2 Armor
All activated abilities reveal enemies in a 450 radius for 4 seconds. Enemies who exit this radius regain their invisibility with a 0.1 second fade time. (e.g. this is not an eye, this does not reveal enemies unless they are very proximate to the caster. This is not dust, this does not reveal enemies who leave the radius.)

Total cost - 2060
(Strong synergy with Nome's Wisdom; the +75% mana regen allows more spells to be cast and the reveal in 450 radius provides a small added protection to casters and encourages their allies to be nearby them.)

Edit: Reworked effect and recipe.

[B4M53F4R]

No real synergy between stats and ability.

[SLASHER`]

Interesting idea, counters assassin's shroud effectively. I'm not sure if I like the stat boosts, particularly the fact that it can specialize in any attribute. I propose that this item should be more intelligence-heavy in order to make it a support item instead of a possible carry item. This way the carry won't need to consider spending 3500 gold on a non-carrying item, and tanks won't be able to tank up at the same time as having a pseudo-eye.

[serrath]

It's not a pseudo-eye, it's unlimited-auto-mini-dust. Useful mostly to STR and INT heroes. (STR so your tank will have an added use in team fights, or INT because a support hero would probably wanna pack one.)

What would you suggest I change the recipe and stats to? (Plus mana? Plus health? Regen? Armor?)

[OhBob]

Why buy dusts when your whole team can reveal them hitting? Concept is overpowered.

[serrath]

It costs a lot more, only works when you're with the team. When the holder dies, the aura disappears. It's just a different approach to it.

What can I do to make the stats and ability have some kind of synergy?

[SLASHER`]

I do like the idea behind this. Maybe it would be more balanced if only the holder can reveal their target. I'm going to vote yes on the possibility of an alternative to dust/wards/eye.

[Scythe]

This item feels like it was made for noobs and would take all the risk out of using dust/wards/eye. The biggest problem is it would basically destroy the game for any hero that uses invisibility.

Oh look, they have :madm: or :scou: or :keep: or :valk: or :nigh:, let's get this item!
Now one or more of your skills, in a couple cases even your Ultimate, are next to useless!

This shouldn't happen for any hero or item. Pestilence's ult is still powerful even if the other team doesn't have any invisibility.

[SLASHER`]

I don't agree with the idea that invisibility spells main utility is to escape certain death. this item definitely needs some alterations to make its use less simple. Maybe if enemies are revealed only when hit by spells it would be more fair.

[serrath]

Oh! I like that! Maybe a 750 aura, all enemies affected by friendly spells cast from within that radius are revealed.

[ShAdOw_LaNcE]

... Are you kidding me?
This has too many abuses possible as it is, and you should have seen them.

1. A global used by a hero holding this would reveal all enemy heroes for 3.5 seconds, op much?

2. A perma-aoe damage makes this an eye. Examples: Mock of Brilliance, Soul Reaper's damage aoe.

3. This kills Night Hound. Kills him. No item should legit kill a specific hero.

4. Frost Field Plate used with this is like revealing the area around you for invis, not only would they be revealed but also slowed and damaged.

5. What about a DOT from the hero holding it? Example: Slither has this, ults, every 1 is revealed to him for his poison nova duration + 3.5 seconds.

6. Sand Wraith chasing, LOL! He gets damaged, disperses, and HELLO!

My intention was not to hate, just to make it clear that this item needs a lot of work. Maybe if it only worked for a few seconds when activated? I don't know, keep trying!

[serrath]

1. A global used by a hero holding this would reveal all enemy heroes for 3.5 seconds, op much?
Doesn't Zeus do that anyway? I see your point, though.

2. A perma-aoe damage makes this an eye. Examples: Mock of Brilliance, Soul Reaper's damage aoe.
Mock wouldn't proc, but Soul Reaper might. Looks like this would need tweaking or a cooldown...

3. This kills Night Hound. Kills him. No item should legit kill a specific hero.
True, it would make his life a lot harder, but NH is really big on silence and ambush, his invisiblity isn't as much a getaway as a get-me-in. (That was the idea behind the on-damage iteration of this item.)

4. Frost Field Plate used with this is like revealing the area around you for invis, not only would they be revealed but also slowed and damaged.
Again, it wouldn't be able to work with items, that'd be disastrous to balance.

5. What about a DOT from the hero holding it? Example: Slither has this, ults, every 1 is revealed to him for his poison nova duration + 3.5 seconds.
That would be a problem. This idea needs work.

6. Sand Wraith chasing, LOL! He gets damaged, disperses, and HELLO!
Yeeaaah, okay, so it was a bad idea.



Let's figure this out. Invisibility shouldn't be a surefire escape from a team battle, but you Dust and Eyes just aren't a fit for every team.

Any ideas?

[ShAdOw_LaNcE]

I would say just make an item that gives an aoe of around 1500 that increases all invis fade times by lets say 2 seconds. This way if someone goes invis really low, you still get an extra 2 seconds to get them. I like the idea, but the damage factor seems to be too complicated to work with. Also, I think that it should also be activated, for it's going to be pretty clear when it needs to be used. I think a 30 second cooldown with a 25 mana cost should do it.

Hope this helps!

[serrath]

Updated with new effect and recipe.

[SLASHER`]

Nice. This is an interesting remake. Do activate-able items work? Attack modifying spells probably shouldn't work for this (arachna's slow). Also, 100% mana regen in the aura seems a little high since it will affect all allies around, but idk if it's too much. I find the revealing quality of the item too good at this point. I like that the radius is only 450, but I would recommend lowering the duration, considering it would be easy for many heroes to spam their spells giving almost permanent revealing.

[serrath]

Nice. This is an interesting remake. Do activate-able items work? Attack modifying spells probably shouldn't work for this (arachna's slow). Also, 100% mana regen in the aura seems a little high since it will affect all allies around, but idk if it's too much. I find the revealing quality of the item too good at this point. I like that the radius is only 450, but I would recommend lowering the duration, considering it would be easy for many heroes to spam their spells giving almost permanent revealing.

Activate-able items will not proc the ability. Only activated abilities will trigger this, not abilities such as Arachna's slow. So change the +100% and +3 to +75% and +2?

[SLASHER`]

Yeah a static number may work better. I really don't know. Maybe 100 % could stay, making this a substantial mana support item. If you compare it to the similarly priced Nome's Wisdom you'll see thAt its static mana regen is +1. this however contains a mana tube instead of a ring of the teacher. I guess my oppinion is that if the percentage mana regen is kept that the overall cost should be higher.

[Runesinger]

This item is quite interesting. I agree with SimAnt 1 sec of revelation is more than enough since every skill used in the aura will activate it. Since it need Mana Battery, you shall as well conserve it's former abilities. Oh and about the mana regen. The user may have a 50% mana regen and the aura may give 25%. You got my "Yes" anyway.

[serrath]

The idea behind the long revelation time is that the radius of revelation is small (450). Maybe I could reduce it to 2.5 seconds?

[Grim_Death]

T-Down,
the item has nothing in common with its components
gives less mana regen then a stand alone manatube
isnt worth the gold - 2k is enough for almost 3 eyes
and tbh i see no synergy with nomes

[Porada_Ninfu]

it rly is kind of overpowered against invis heroes and the aura mana regeneration is too high as well

just a suggestion:
any spell gives a charge on this item (maximum like 20)
when activate this item, reveals any units for 0.5 sec * charges


maybe change the items needed as well^^

[OJPhoenix]

gives less mana regen than components, and woot armadon has permanent true sight...

true sight is a powerful ability that cannot be simply given out like this

and it has no synergy with nome's at all

oh and Mana Battery component useless, effect lost, seems to be a useless part

[serrath]

T-Down,
the item has nothing in common with its components
gives less mana regen then a stand alone manatube
isnt worth the gold - 2k is enough for almost 3 eyes
and tbh i see no synergy with nomes

It actually gives the same amount of mana regen as a stand alone manatube to all nearby allies. The mana battery is there because it triggers on spell-cast. The idea is that the recipe changes it from heath/mana on enemy spell cast to brief allied true-sight on spell cast. Bear in mind the true sight is ONLY IN A 450 RADIUS AROUND THE SPELLCASTER. So this is not at all as powerful as an eye. Armardon's truesight if he spammed his skill would only be in a very small radius.

[OJPhoenix]

Armadon still gets a permanent truesight that he cannot lose, there was a rule back in dota about not giving permanent truesight, ever, its because its considered a powerful effect.

and your wrong btw
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/items.php?sid=4
Manatube: 100% Mana Regeneration; your item only has 75%, thus less

EDIT: I just realised the item is even more imba than I thought, everyone gets to use that reveal ability, how much truesight do you want to give away?

[serrath]

Armadon still gets a permanent truesight that he cannot lose, there was a rule back in dota about not giving permanent truesight, ever, its because its considered a powerful effect.

and your wrong btw
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/items.php?sid=4
Manatube: 100% Mana Regeneration; your item only has 75%, thus less

EDIT: I just realised the item is even more imba than I thought, everyone gets to use that reveal ability, how much truesight do you want to give away?

It only triggers on activated abilities. Perhaps I should decrease the duration?

[OhBob]

"Total cost - 2060
(Strong synergy with Nome's Wisdom; the +75% mana regen allows more spells to be cast and the reveal in 450 radius provides a small added protection to casters and encourages their allies to be nearby them.)"

Of course it has sinergy with nome's, it gives overpowered mana regeneration ina huge area.

Also, we walready got plenty of things to reveal invisible enemies, remove this wierd effect and buy puzzlebox or dusts.

[serrath]

This is a little more team-oriented. The idea is to make new strategies available. The mana regen could be reduced, we all know the devs always change the numbers. The idea is to make the team need to work together.

[OJPhoenix]

teams already work together... only pubs dont, proper play is all about proper teamwork, someone buys an eye or dust or wards or a combination.

I still say this is imba because of Armadon and other spammers who can just have permanent truesight, anyone with a low cooldown spell grabs this and has permanent uncounterable truesight, the only counter would be to silence the entire team, and well only vindicator can do that.

Truesight can't be given out like this, its a temporary and or limited ability, I can't support such massive amount of truesight.

:soulr::slit::accu::pand::keep::nigh::thun::arma:
Off the top of my head, every single one of thsoe heroes has low enough cooldown abilities to gain truesight for extended periods of time, if not permanently. Thus the concept is flawed.

EDIT:
Found it
http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=281580
Suggestion Forum Rules DotA Allstars
2nd Post
Additional item suggestions rules
B.3 Discouraged Restrictions
You are highly recommended to stick to these restrictions, but you are not obligated to:
I. Permanent truesight and/or permanent immunity to something is highly discouraged;

[serrath]

It's impractical for an enemy to spam a spell for the entire game. While they might be able to spam it enough that you can't get away, they won't be spamming it as they walk down the lane.

[OJPhoenix]

Sorry for the big post, but I think it will help.

Every type of Truesight in the game is either counterable and or limited.
:BoundEye: Bound Eye. Counted by killing the bearer then taking/destroying the item. Limited by well 700g for something you might lose, dying frequently to invisibily can make this hard to purchase.
:DustOfRevelation: Dust of Revelation. Can only be counted by killing the guy with the dust before he can use it against you. Limited time, two time use per purchase, wont tell you when the Invisible enemy sneaks up on you unless you chance happen to use it, has a long enough Cooldown that its pretty much only one at a time per User.
:WardOfRevelation: Ward of Revelation. Can be seen and destroyed, and has a Timer. Limited by Stock in shop, exceptionally low sight on its own, cannot be moved, runs out after... duration I can't remember.

:scou: Scout's Electric Eye. Can be seen and destroyed. Limited to 2/3/4/5, can't be moved, must wait 30 seconds before recasting.
:keep: Keeper's Eyes in the Forest. Counted by Truesight, being nearby and destroying the tree entirely. Limited to trees, some area's he can see very little if any of, exceptionally long cooldown of 5 minutes at the first level. Getting a Flying Monkey with Truesight and Logger's Hatchet can heavily destroy his Map Control.
:ramp: Rampage's Charge. Countered... Being dead, if he can't see them to begin with, he can't charge them. Limited by lasting only as long as he can charge, runs out immediately afterward.

I could keep going but I think you see the point and I really don't feel like listing all of them, theres more than I originally anticipated.

Your Truesight lacks these flaws.
Countered by... Killing the guy who has it counters it while he's dead, Silencing the everyone around him, Taking him away from his team. So other than killing him first, only certain Heroes can counter this. Would be the first type of Truesight that cannot be destroyed or used up, this is bad.
Limited by... Having mana to cast an ability, not having short enough cooldowns to keep it up or enough allies to keep casting. Wait we can get around all of these Limitations. Lots of mana regen, fortunately your item gives some! Sticking with your team enough to make sure there's enough abilities to keep it on when you need it.

Had heaps more to say but decided not to, coz I finally worked it out.
So the problem is lack of those flaws?
Fix it.
All current Truesight is either destroyable or can be used up / runs out. Yours is none of these.
I don't think Destroyable would work in this case, after all its an item with other benefits. That leaves being used up / runs out, the granted Truesight must only last a certain amount of time or have a limited number of charges. Charges probably wouldn't work very well so I suggest that what you want it to do, only works for a set duration after purchase. Beyond that, it either stops there, which might not work so well, or the recipe needs to be bought again. Maybe even getting weaker with each 'recharge' like Shrunked Head.

Such a Change would probably also be a good idea to repost with, it would significantly change how the Item functions and thus the poll would be inaccurate for the current state.

PS: This effect doesn't quite work:
"Enemies who exit this radius regain their invisibility with a 0.1 second fade time"
Truesight is not something on the enemy, they're still invisible even while revealed, Truesight lets you see them while theyre invisible.
Unless you leave a 'reveal' on the target like :pest: Pestilence's Swarm does, the instant they leave Truesight range, you can't see them.

[serrath]

You misread the description. (Or maybe I misread it when I checked it.) I believe I wrote it so that the item reveals enemies within a 450 radius of the caster. So when an enemy exits that 450 radius, the reveal goes away and he re-stealths. (I said 0.1 second fade time, because people seemed to think this would dust him or something.)

So this isn't truesight, you see, it's reveal. This reveal is countered by:
1) Killing the holder of the item
2) Silence
3) Exiting the 450 radius
4) Mana/cooldown of the casters.

And if I might ask, what invisible hero is spending his time standing next to an enemy caster all day? He'll know better than to be there, or he'll do his damage and leave.

Perhaps I should reduce the radius and duration?

+I'd like to make the radius at the point where the spell was cast, but that might get confusing.

+I think the duration should probably get reduced to about 2-3 seconds, but that's for S2 to decide. (They always rework the numbers.)

+The radius, it seems, should be reduced to maybe 350 (very short range) but this might make the item's reveal useless. Anything over 450 is enormous, and anything below it is useless. Really, 450 is only useful to keep Night Hound from standing in the middle of your team or to prevent SS's ult. (Or if you have a stunned NH and don't want him fading out before you kill him.)

[OJPhoenix]

Ah okay you did mean that by the fade time, good.
Reveal or Truesight? Lemme clear that up
Enemies within 450 radius when you/ally casts, is revealed and you can see him/them for 4 seconds wherever he goes. Reveal.
After casting you can see invisible heroes in a 450 around yourself for 4 seconds. Truesight.

Proven by this:
Swarm Effects
-5 / -10 / -15 Armor
Revealed

Revealed means you see the Revealed unit even if invisible.
Truesight you see through all invisibility in the given area.

Your Item describes Truesight.

[serrath]

Alright, fair enough, I suppose it does. (In its earlier incarnation, it revealed enemies for one second who you'd attacked, so I suppose it's turned into truesight then.)

[Furosuto]

I've often wondered why I make connections and analogies in my head when others don't...must be a gift from god...or a birth defect...

Does noone realize that this is simply an item that turns the spells it casts into another version of TB's Bolt?

Lets see...I cast a spell, I see things in an aoe around me...aside from Armadon, this seems like a pretty straight forward, simple, an quite (dare I say it...) balanced approach to anti-invis.

Now OJPhoenix makes some decent arguments, and the best "additional" balancing mech I could come up with was a timer, similar to the one on Token, that is restartable via a repurchased recipe.

That said, I'm....not really seeing the issue here. The item works. The heroes that would buy it who are actually tanks are few and far between, and the rest will still squish when any invis hero shows up. Aside from Armadon and (maybe if it works on toggle-skills, which would be just a tad gay) Devourer, I got nothin.

Thumbs Up on isle two.

[OJPhoenix]

Yeah its not a bad item persay its actually a neat new way to grant Truesight, even if it is a copy of TB's Lightning Bolt (yeah I realised this a while ago but the similarity doesn't matter).

I just feel the item lack enough counterability and or limitation. Honestly the biggest problem I've got is that the invisible hero will never be able to sneak up on the enemy team again, unless no one is casts a spell for 4 seconds, and if theyre pushing, thats unlikely. And personally if I had one of these items I'd make sure someone is always casting a spell if we take a step back from pushing, and guard the guy holding this.

Eye also prevents sneak ups, but once they die and you destroy/take the Eye, they're forced to repurchase, sometimes they wont be able to, and sometimes they wont bother. Theres exceptionally limited forms of Perplexed in the game (the disable that silences items) to actually counter this, off the top of my head I can't even think of 1 at all... DotA's Doom :P hehe. But yes because of that I don't like it, once you got it, potentially never be snuck up upon ever again, and sticking is what teams do to win.

One last question/point. Can this Item's ability trigger of Items? In its current limited counterable near unlimited form, the answer had better be a no. Frankly even with counters and limitations, it should be a no or not all, some items have LOW cooldowns. You need to mention item abilities when you've got something triggering off spells.

[serrath]

The invis is only around the caster, not all heroes in the 950 range. So if Joe casts a spell, me & John still lack truesight.

[OJPhoenix]

If Joe see's George near him, you and John can also see him.
Then, you John and Joe hug each other so you can watch each other's back's, literally.

[serrath]

Yeah, but you'd really have to be close. 450 ain't huge. If you try 350, that's even smaller.

[ReloaD1010]

Its close to be good imo
I think you have to change the mana battery for another item.
Mana battery, alone, gives you mana/hp per charges. In the wand that you say, its doesnt do anything that does standalone, so maybe a change of the mana battery will be good
just constructive criticism :D the concept is good but need some little changes

[`jusatin`]

Nice item, but do you still get the chages to mana battery and the same mana battery effect when you use this item?

[serrath]

Nah, mana battery's lost, which is why you get the truesight and mana regen at that price.

[Loquacious]

I like it, + one.

The more items that do weird different things, the better.

[Ryper7]

lol this item would make armadon a pretty effective counter to invis heros. perma-spines = perma 450 radius reveal. pretty nice tho, the small radius + the fact that you have to use abilities (using mana and using a cooldown) to activate the reveal. like i said tho, armadon would become a hard counter to invis heroes with this. ill give it a t-up, seems solid enough

[VanthraX]

Wouldn't it make more sense to atleast have the eye in the recipe? since it is essentially just an upgraded/more useful version of it :nigh: