Wrong Builds-Guides on misleading information

[FuriousPeon]

Disclaimer:
This guide is not written to troll, harass, make fun of any player. it is written to INFORM the community of a higher level of insight in this game. If any builds juxtapose what you do in an actual match, it was not made in spectating you alone, but the community as a whole, and what is constantly seen. This is also not to discourage creativity, but to promote efficiency.

Questions
What makes this guide not just another way of telling people how to play a hero?

This guide isn't meant to teach a person to play a hero with advanced techniques and how to individual use every skill, it's meant to make players understand what items their hero utilizes the best, and is put here to set a mindset, not give an absolute beat all build.

Everyone is entitled to their own builds, why not just let them experiment?

Look, there's a right and wrong way to do some things, and while this game can get creative, you have to learn the basics of the right, elsewise you'll be like the thousands of pubs on DOTA that waste their gold in game and blame everything on imbalances when they lose.

Why did you write this?

Because I see these builds being used when they shouldn't, and I know how it feels to be frustrated with not knowing what to do and being too afraid to ask because people will yell "NOOB" if you do. This game does not have competitive replays, this game doesn't have pages upon pages upon pages of guides from players who're sponsored to play the game to teach people. I've played this game(dota) for 4-5 years, and have done some pretty dumb builds in the past, so I know ultimately this is what people need, and they need it explained to them with logic, opposed to "just because"




As we're all aware and have been told by the staff, and the disclaimer this is Dota. The mechanics are a little different, hero tweaks are certainly there, but it's very safe to say that we are playing the same game that debuted on wc3 in 2004. For the dota players who've been around, we all know about the times where you got blink dagger on every hero, we know about the imba soul rings that got massed and when nulls gave +1 armor, before bracers even existed. This guide is obviously not for you, because if you aren't watching replays or playing in leagues. I'm sure even pubs by now in public games get remotely decent items. This is a guide meant to tell the s1-s2 and ( and even some dota players) what shouldn't be done, rreason being that it may either yield no benefits, or very little. Take note that I am in no way the ULTIMATE DICTIONARY for how you should build your hero, but granted you're new, I know what you shouldn't be doing. Hopefully other dota players will contribute to this guide (and end their frustration by seeing it,) to further enlighten others. This guide will take a LONG time to finish by myself, so I really do need that extra help since I expect to go in depth.


Intelligence:

Alright so you know that Intelligence heros have intelligence: What you didn't know is that an attribute type contributes to only half: ( if even) to the build. Meaning that if you get nothing but int items on an int hero, likely it was a bad idea( and I do mean NOTHING but int items) I commend the creative souls trying to play some of these heroes as DPS carries, and in some situations it works dependant on the hero and the opposing team, but you have to ask yourself :When I picked this hero and my teammat epicked his, did he want me to play a caster or not? With that said, I'm going to list a few builds I've seen below and list why they're not too good an idea. I will also list some suggestions with + signs telling players an example of what to get, though is not the beatall solution, because you have to adapt to your team and what your enemy has, every. single. game. Take note these are NOT complete builds from base to end, but examples of items to get.


Pyromancer.
-Steam Boots.
-Rift Shards
-Restoration stone
+Posthaste/EnchantedMarchers
+Glowing Stone
+Totem of Kundra

The Bad


Steam boots provide 10 to one attribute, give 30% ias, and 65 Movement speed. Looking at his ability that increases your speed passively by 40%, I can see the misconception that this would be a good idea. However, it also decreases cast time ( and even then I'm not sure if people put points into it.) Steam boots are usually an item meant for certain DPS Carry's, and Pyro isn't one. Anything you could gain from the 10str is easily replaced by a point booster. The same applies to rift shards, seeing as you just don't have the abilities or stat buildup that makes you worthy of being a ranged carry, it's like wasting 2300 gold on nothing. The only thing I've seen a Pyromancer come close to DPS carrying with is with a geometry stone, and to be perfectly honest; the game was won regardless. Restoration serves no real significant purpose on this hero. YOu have an ultimate with a 55 second cooldown at level 16, and 90 seconds at level 11, and Restoration stone has a 210 second cooldown.If you really REAAAAALLY think you need this item, get it AFTER you have staff of masters, totem, and hellflower, frostfield plate, level 5 codex. ( this will never happen.)





The Good


HON is a gank intensive game whether players know it is, or don't. The Team that ganks successfully the most, usually wins the game. With this said, it's really no wonder that this hero should have enchanted marchers or post haste. As a hero with a disable that NEEDS to aim it infront of the direction the enemy is running, Pyro has a need for speed, and consider his base speed is 295, he NEEDS some more(385 puts you ahead of the game.). The advantage of having enchanted marchers opposed to post haste is that you can phase through any unit, including teammates, but the advantage of the latter is that you can teleport anywhere an ally creep is, and assist your team, OR teleport away from a gank. If you don't understand the importance, just watch a game where you could have easily killed a hero, or saved a teammate, by running faster than the enemy, or teleporting near them. Anything you could want in HP, mana (which is what you should focus on with this hero) is given to you by glowing stone. it sets up the opportunity to get idol of goddess which can be then turned itno sacrificial stone or staff of the masters. Glowing stone gives you 200 hp and 150 mana, which is essentially a little bit more than 10str (19 a point x 10= 190) and 150 mana (25 mana more than a dragonfire and 1.2 less int than neophytes book which is 10 int. 17 mana per int.) 2 Fortified bracelets will give you similar results, exchanging 38 more hp for 48 less mana. Totem of Kundra as a whole seems obvious as to why. Yes, a 3.5 stun seems pretty imba, especially when you have a dps carry that has lifesteal on the other team, and you want to shut him down, or an annoying ass casster you need to disable in a fight, ( or imba ass 200% mana regen SPAM ALL DAY)BUT let's split up the items. Mana tube will give you 100% mana regeneration, which .. you'll need because this hero requires a lot of spell spamming. Blessed orb gives you more hp, more mana (and some armor.) Acolytes staff (I think should always be gotten last.) gives you 25 int/425 mana, the cost of your level 2 ultimate. Putting these items together slowly will keep you helpful to your team while not feeling rushed to build their ultimate form. HON/Dota is a game of building up slowly (not rushing 6k items immediately disregarding how useless they may be untill finished.)



Glacius.
-Steam boots (We're not getting into this again.)
-Sacrifcial stone
+Shrunken Head
+Hellflower
+WarpKey
+Wards
+Wards
+Wards
+Bottle ( If you plan on roam/ganking)

The Bad


Sacrifcial stone isn't this heroes friend. I know, I know, it seems like a good idea because it gives you 450 hp and 200% mana regen, but there's no reason for this hero to have this much mana regen for the sake of mana regen alone, given his passive. I've seen this build use a lot and all I can ask is "Why?" People are spending 5k something on an item that yields very litte. Given the mana cost of his ultimate in comparison to Crystal maiden, there's no REAL reason to have this item. Your gold should be spent elsewhere like making the map seen.



The Good


THE ward whore (aside from scout) in this game is without a shadow of a doubt going to be Glacius. This hero simply does not need a lot to do what he needs to do the majority of the game. You have a passive that gives mana regen, and two fortified gauntlets plus a +10 axe gives you 24 str (6 hp more than 450.) Enchanted Marchers helps your piss poor movespeed, but we've already established the type of boots most of these chars should be getting (if you read pyro.) However, WHY Shrunken head? Why? Because, you have a channeling ultimate that can be interrupted at any time, so it's almost a neccessity. Not to mention the fact this hero's hp makes me facepalm, and she can easily be nuked down in team fights. (especially since frostbite doesn't silence anymore.) Warp key is for teleporting, becuse uh well yeah you need it. I figured this obvious given Euphoria's guide, but people just aren't doing it. If a second opinion is what people need, then here it is: Get warp key for crying out loud. You need to teleport in the middle of your enemies and ult. Again on wards, you need to be buying them. Wards are limitless now I think in this game, meaning you can have the whole map on lockdown if you don't have a scout, or tree in game. Buy wards, and you'll be surprised how easily their team will go down from being ganked in unsuspecting spots.






Blacksmith. (Okay I get his ult and all, but why the gambler persona?)

- Rift Shards
- Whispering Helm
+ Staff of the Masters
+ Sorcery Ring
+ Hellflower



The Good AND Bad


Truth be told, there's not much to be said about this. I saw it in a game, Have seen people in the past get similar items, and thought I'd make a brief comment on it. I'm going to start posting screenshots of these builds, so people don't think I'm making this **** up. Alright, in a nutshell, despite frenzy, I don't really think this hero was intended as a carry. It's strange, because he's a melee hero with an ability that increases his attack AND movement speed, but the truth of the matter is, he is simply more devastating with fireblast. Staff of the masters gives you almost a 1 in 3 chance of hitting them for 275(5) magic damage for a significant low cost of mana. The cooldown is so short after his 3 ult that it's just as spammable as Thunderbringers bolt, only... with a chance to do five times the damage. Your mana pool as this hero is dirt poor, and the natural regen is just as bad, so if you went damage, you'd probably not utilize all his abilities to their full potential. Personally, I don't give a damn if you get steamboots on this hero, AS LONG as you change them to int (but I still don't suggest it.) This hero however has a relatively high base strength, meaning he can take damage, also meaning he doesn't really need 2 fortified bracers at start, and can focus on getting mana items instead. I doubt you'll be making a lot of gold as this hero early game, so wards aren't really suggested, unless you're the only one who can. Sorcery ring makes it so you can be useful early on and not have to wait 6000 gold later to start spamming your nuke. 2 of The +6 int +3 all attribute items on him with a bottle could also work, but I've personally never experienced a roaming blacksmith before, and if this hero is in your team, more than likely there's someone else with bottle soloing who will be tablet hunting anyway. Hellflower is just there to silence your enemies and amplify the damage. Since your hp is decent, and this item gives good mana regen, you can effectively spam with it (and your opponant will be scared to hell of being multicast-fireblasted
while taking more damage overall.

[Adam]

You're making a guide to basically give a proverbial finger to all the other guides. Can't say I find this classy at all.

Guides are there to help users attempt another build that has worked for someone else. It's great you have your opinions, but what makes your word the best? Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this?

I've yet to see a guide with misleading information - maybe one or two that don't work with your playstyle perhaps. They make work for someone else.

[Spinewire]

^ he sunk your battleship :(

[Kietharr]

the man has a point, battle pyromancer is mindblowingly bad.

[FuriousPeon]

You're making a guide to basically give a proverbial finger to all the other guides. Can't say I find this classy at all.

Guides are there to help users attempt another build that has worked for someone else. It's great you have your opinions, but what makes your word the best? Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this?

I've yet to see a guide with misleading information - maybe one or two that don't work with your playstyle perhaps. They make work for someone else.

You're making it sound like doing builds is like free speech:Anyone can do anything, and you're mean for trying to dictate them. And this guide isn't about MY playstyle, it's about a competitive playstyle, it's for the players who really want to understand and use their heroes to the max potential, the people who want to go in the *right* direction and if people believe it or not, this game HAS a RIGHT DIRECTION for a lot of heroes. I see no problem here at all.

I'm sorry, but realistically pyromancer with Steamboots will never be as good as pyromancer with post haste. If you want to know what makes this true, I'll happily show you to the a dota league homepage where you will never see anyone go steambooks on his female counterpart, never see anything that didn't contribute to her playing as an AOE caster, but instead as a carry, NEVER.

If you read the guide you'd notice I put the builds there and explained their usefulness and disproved it against steamboots to persuade players to think in a different mindset :Caster should be caster, which is an important start for new players so they learn the basics of a character's nature and THEN expand. I didn't limit item choice, nor did I tell them "don't get any +damage items on him" because I know situations where I've had to go different builds that are totally outside of his role to win a game, though these games were not competitive to the highest level (and it would have never worked if it was). But what I am stating is an understanding of this hero and how he's been played for god knows how long.

[RuCkiS]

Will be interesting when it's complete, but please use subtle colours that are easier on the eyes.

[FuriousPeon]

Will be interesting when it's complete, but please use subtle colours that are easier on the eyes.
No problem, will do

[Lore]

People tried doing Battle Lina in Dota as well combined with her Spell "Ultimate" (Not her ultimate but the Attackspeed increase)

Look what she still is: A warding whore ;)

Play heroes as the role they have - in comp. play that is.

[Murs]

furious feel free to look at either of my guides and give me suggestions on item builds, i'm open to feedback.

[Krangry]

IMO a good pyro only needs Bottle Phase Boots and 2 bracers ( dont know item names off the top of my head) and gank nonstop with runes.

[FuriousPeon]

IMO a good pyro only needs Bottle Phase Boots and 2 bracers ( dont know item names off the top of my head) and gank nonstop with runes.

you're probably righjt. that's all a *good* pyro needs.

[Adam]

You're making it sound like doing builds is like free speech:Anyone can do anything, and you're mean for trying to dictate them. And this guide isn't about MY playstyle, it's about a competitive playstyle, it's for the players who really want to understand and use their heroes to the max potential, the people who want to go in the *right* direction and if people believe it or not, this game HAS a RIGHT DIRECTION for a lot of heroes. I see no problem here at all.

I'm sorry, but realistically pyromancer with Steamboots will never be as good as pyromancer with post haste. If you want to know what makes this true, I'll happily show you to the a dota league homepage where you will never see anyone go steambooks on his female counterpart, never see anything that didn't contribute to her playing as an AOE caster, but instead as a carry, NEVER.

If you read the guide you'd notice I put the builds there and explained their usefulness and disproved it against steamboots to persuade players to think in a different mindset :Caster should be caster, which is an important start for new players so they learn the basics of a character's nature and THEN expand. I didn't limit item choice, nor did I tell them "don't get any +damage items on him" because I know situations where I've had to go different builds that are totally outside of his role to win a game, though these games were not competitive to the highest level (and it would have never worked if it was). But what I am stating is an understanding of this hero and how he's been played for god knows how long.

Your guide's title suggests other guides give the wrong information. There is no right direction for a game that's based on player skill. A build may work for you more, but it won't work for anyone. If someone is better at playing a support hero and you're telling them to play it as a DPS, it won't work better for them.

Perhaps a better title is in order? Aside from one just telling all the other guides to stop coming up with new ideas because we've already got builds that work. Who needs creativity, anyways. God knows absolutely NO professional players use different item strategies based on what heroes are in the game.

I just think there is a better way than tearing up other guides that people have worked hard on. Maybe I'll make a guide bashing this one and pointing out all the flaws in it.

[tropicaza]

You know, I can see both sides of the story.. 9/10 the person making the random "pyro carry" build or something like that will mostly acknowledge that this build is not for the faint of heart.

It isn't like some newbie is going to show up and say: Oh, well this is my madman support guide...MAX his armor debuff and get Codex!

There NEEDS to be different guides and choices. People who make the non-cookie cutter guides need to be praised for showing someone how to play a hero a bit differently. It's what keeps the game fresh.

I mean, if a newbie sees a guide that he can't play due to lack of skill/experience, and then attempts to build a hero that way, he'll probably get smashed. And then, he'll most likely learn not to do it again. It all takes time getting used to the game.

That being said, there isn't really a need for a 'guide against guides'.

[wakeup]

imagining power treads/steam boots on lina/pyro makes me LAUGH! Toppic creator as at least some experience, listen to him, I player DotA for many years and I think I do agree to most what he said.

[antigrav]

I don't care how liberal you want to sound but there is a definite right and wrong way to play this game. If you disagree then I recommend you play DotA in some kind of competitive environment and show us how well your creative builds work out for you. Yes there are options when building a hero, however, these are usually confined to a certain niche of play. You say you want to play a Lina/Pyro as a carry because your style is to carry and not cast. Then I return with why not play an actual carry hero? You gain nothing from being creative and special. You are more likely than not to feed because you will have other players taking advantage of your weaknesses as a hero with little Agility growth hence very little armor who you've built like an Agility hero.

Also there is definitely a need to warn beginners about not believing what they see in some guides. I saw a suggestion to stack Boots of Travel (Post Haste) on top of Phase Boots (Enhanced Marchers). Haha, what? I'm sorry, did you just tell me to spend roughly 1500 extra gold to get a minor speed boost? Or spend an extra 2700 gold so I have a regular teleport...which I can purchase for only 135 gold if and when I need it? I'm sorry but get your "let's all be friends and coddle each other" mindset out of here. This game is beyond well established. You look to guides to learn how to improve. No point in reading them if they don't actually help you towards that goal.

[tropicaza]

I don't care how liberal you want to sound but there is a definite right and wrong way to play this game. If you disagree then I recommend you play DotA in some kind of competitive environment and show us how well your creative builds work out for you. Yes there are options when building a hero, however, these are usually confined to a certain niche of play. You say you want to play a Lina/Pyro as a carry because your style is to carry and not cast. Then I return with why not play an actual carry hero? You gain nothing from being creative and special. You are more likely than not to feed because you will have other players taking advantage of your weaknesses as a hero with little Agility growth hence very little armor who you've built like an Agility hero.

Also there is definitely a need to warn beginners about not believing what they see in some guides. I saw a suggestion to stack Boots of Travel (Post Haste) on top of Phase Boots (Enhanced Marchers). Haha, what? I'm sorry, did you just tell me to spend roughly 1500 extra gold to get a minor speed boost? Or spend an extra 2700 gold so I have a regular teleport...which I can purchase for only 135 gold if and when I need it? I'm sorry but get your "let's all be friends and coddle each other" mindset out of here. This game is beyond well established. You look to guides to learn how to improve. No point in reading them if they don't actually help you towards that goal.

This is all well and good, but there is room for both competitive guides and fun guides. Not everyone wants to play DotA competitively because some people actually have a ton of stuff to do besides game :P. Regardless, I think people are more than capable of realizing "okay, this build is not going to work" after trying it. They may have a game where it's a ton of fun, and that is what a game is about--fun.

[antigrav]

I get your point and I agree but I don't know if everyone will be able to see what does and doesn't work immediately. This is partly because I"m cynical about the general populous but when you come to a build that may or may not work because of certain circumstances you are then ignoring that some builds are very consistent and do well most of the time.

[FuriousPeon]

This is all well and good, but there is room for both competitive guides and fun guides. Not everyone wants to play DotA competitively because some people actually have a ton of stuff to do besides game :P. Regardless, I think people are more than capable of realizing "okay, this build is not going to work" after trying it. They may have a game where it's a ton of fun, and that is what a game is about--fun.

Antigrav and Tropica do both have good points. There is a "fun guide" way and a "comp guide way" This, however is mostly the comp guide way. I DO need to pick up on this, and because I'll be going on vacation vERY soon and not being able to play for 1-2 weeks, I'l be using that team to write things down.

[Tenet]

That was a pleasure to read FuriousPeon, nice post.

It's also amusing how you got mobbed for it. I had a laugh from some of these replies.

Fun Guides are corrupting newbie players, giving them handicaps of bad habits and teaching them ineffective ways to play. This only widens the gap between them and the DotA veterans that know the effective builds (and their variations).

DotA and HoN don't really have much metagaming - there are a few key builds and a few small variations/adaptations to them, and the rest is just worse. Trying to be "original" in such an environment is just silly. The originality in DotA is not in the items or heroes, it's in your gameplay and how you use the tools.

Comp builds are much more effective then others, and that is why we need the guides.

[LiChE]

You're making a guide to basically give a proverbial finger to all the other guides. Can't say I find this classy at all.

Guides are there to help users attempt another build that has worked for someone else. It's great you have your opinions, but what makes your word the best? Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this?

I've yet to see a guide with misleading information - maybe one or two that don't work with your playstyle perhaps. They make work for someone else.

because some guides tell **** awful information that dont help but on the contrary make people worse.

[Imm0rtal]

Your guide's title suggests other guides give the wrong information. There is no right direction for a game that's based on player skill. A build may work for you more, but it won't work for anyone. If someone is better at playing a support hero and you're telling them to play it as a DPS, it won't work better for them.

Perhaps a better title is in order? Aside from one just telling all the other guides to stop coming up with new ideas because we've already got builds that work. Who needs creativity, anyways. God knows absolutely NO professional players use different item strategies based on what heroes are in the game.

I just think there is a better way than tearing up other guides that people have worked hard on. Maybe I'll make a guide bashing this one and pointing out all the flaws in it.


The OP Stated at the beginning that a lot of experts have different views on what the best choice is / this game is open to creativity. A lot of the item layouts he has seen have "worked". HOWEVER -- This doesn't mean your maximizing your gold the best way for your class. Everyone wants to be a carry for their team but then they pick support/nuke classes and try to turn those classes into high damage tanks.

The OP is actually quite humble about it all and is trying to steer you right.

Again, Just because your item combination works in pubs where other pubs are using the same stupid combination, does not mean they are good or the best.

If you take nothing away from this thread except what kind of items these heroes would benefit from and that helps you play your hero better, then great!

[Karmashock]

I found this guide helpful. Especially the comments about steam boots.

I've had a few very good games that hinged on having post haste or phase boots. I look forward to more guides as they're all useful when it comes to the game.

[AlexMax]

From the perspective of a noob, i would rather have a guide that tells me what a 'good competative' build is as opposed to a 'fun gimmick' build that takes way more skill/gold to put together or relies on the enemy being bad. Once I get good enough to know my options, then i feel safe to branch out and start experimenting with 'fun' builds.

Just my 2cents

[Arkaen]

About "fun builds," is it really more fun to be less helpful to your team? Personally, I find that to be quite strange.

[PzN]

Its not a good choice teach someone how to drift before he knows how to drive.The same applyes to dota.Most people i know who read guides, don't read it trying to learn other ways to play a hero, but they read in order to get better with him.
Lets suppose someone read a guide about the battle pyromancer and surprisingly win the game he was testing it (mainly because the team was better of course), he will trully believes that build is good and wil keep doing it, that is the biggest problem IMO.
sorry for my english but it's not my native language.

[TurpinoS]

I dont really see the use of fun guides.

Maybe fun ''suggestions'' , but since something ''fun'' is just being creative, I believe anyone could go creative in a game and try whatever item build there is.

The true purpose of a guide in my opinion is to give people with not much playing experience, the ideal way, or lets say, the ideal way in most of the situations to play a certain hero.

It is obvious that depending on the game, item builds will change, but there is always a certain item build for a hero that will be most effective in the most amount of games, and a guide should go towards showing that, since its obviously not competitive players that will come see it, its people that started playing and have no clue how to properly play a certain hero.

And yes, these forums are full of pretty bad guides, especially telling everyone to get codex on every nukers (sorry for those i offend, situational item but definately not core on all nukers)

[Electrician]

thanks I'll try your blacksmith suggestions

[Ch3St3R]

Ya i completely agree w/ the OP. I personally see alot of my friends that are trying to learn the game want to know how to play certain heros. They look for guides to give them the little information that the "pros" know, so that they can more effectively play the game. They are not looking for "creative" ways of doing anything because it is the players looking to learn how to play better that are reading the guides. My frustration comes from the 7 out of 10 times my friends come back to me after reading a guide and tell me about what theyve learned for me to just realized that the guide is so completely off from any effective play style, that you have to have some major skill to be able to get the money faster than your oponent and know the very thin line you have to walk to be able to affectively play these creative builds. So now they have spent a decent chunk of time learning this new build and i have to take an equal amount of time stripping them of this knowledge and fixing there perspective of the hero, so they can become a better player. Any of my friends that are ready for a creative build are past the point of reading guides to actually get better at the game.

So what this original poster has done seems very helpful in the fact that people that read guides dont need creativity they need maximum effectiveness.

[Gotweed04]

You're making a guide to basically give a proverbial finger to all the other guides. Can't say I find this classy at all.

Guides are there to help users attempt another build that has worked for someone else. It's great you have your opinions, but what makes your word the best? Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this?

I've yet to see a guide with misleading information - maybe one or two that don't work with your playstyle perhaps. They make work for someone else.


While I've seen some guides with some bad advice or misleading info, the arrogance in the guide really annoyed me. I agree with you Adam. The OP should have more class and not try to inflate his e-ego.

[genai]

I have one Pro tip for newbs (not noobs, they dont listen): If you just started playing... dont pick agility heroes!

k thx

[Karmashock]

I have one Pro tip for newbs (not noobs, they dont listen): If you just started playing... dont pick agility heroes!

k thx
Really? I do pretty well with them... the ones I have the most trouble with are strength heroes... I do ok with with INT and AGI heroes... but strength heroes always seem to go sideways for me.

[Lanik1]

Your guide's title suggests other guides give the wrong information. There is no right direction for a game that's based on player skill. A build may work for you more, but it won't work for anyone. If someone is better at playing a support hero and you're telling them to play it as a DPS, it won't work better for them.

Perhaps a better title is in order? Aside from one just telling all the other guides to stop coming up with new ideas because we've already got builds that work. Who needs creativity, anyways. God knows absolutely NO professional players use different item strategies based on what heroes are in the game.

I just think there is a better way than tearing up other guides that people have worked hard on. Maybe I'll make a guide bashing this one and pointing out all the flaws in it.


I think you need to sit back and take a look at what you're doing. It seems like you're being controversial for the sake of being controversial. Disregarding all your experience to the game, the man has a point. BoT > Treads on Lina/Pyro. To state otherwise would be a fallacy. It's great you have your own opinion but opinions can be wrong, regardless that everyone is free to have them.

There are multiple ways to play heroes but more often than not there is a BEST way to play a hero.

Ego has nothing to do with right or wrong. He may have came off as "unclassy" but it's the internet and it's online gaming, what do you expect? It doesn't change the fact that he's right. I see it all too often where everybody wants to be the HERO. THE CARRY. Everyones gotta be the god damn player killer.

[irongunner]

Okay so I am a almost complete noob to DoTA and HoN, I have only completed a handfull of games.


**his post is about the environment of HoN in general not this or any other guide.**

I understand the point and counterpoint about "fun" and "competative" guides, but it comes down to a few things for me.

1. this is a TEAM game, and if you cannot carry your end on a public game; because you are tring to make a fastwalking pyro with six sets of steam boots, you are taking away the fun for the rest of your team.

2. some people are way too competative. I know this is beta and no real ladder, competitions, or clans so the competative minded people have to pug, but they should understand and respect it is a pug game. which means you are going to have some noob like me that goes 1/13....we all are noobs in the beginning.

3. when this game releases there are going to be alot of 12 year old kids on hear cussing and acting the fool just like every other multiplayer game, but also we are going to get a huge influx of noobs that need to be fostered into veteran players so the community can grow.
4. when new people com in they are going to be some who just want to play socialy.

So what does all of this mean?
competative guides are great, but people should not make it sound like it is the end of the world or you will be a complete failure if you do not follow the guide.
And
veterans need to foster noobs so the number of veterans increase

[tiaz]

Ok, so I'm pretty nub on dota, and hence HoN too. I go to the strategy forum to read up and see if i can learn something. I find a thread i read it and i get a small "aha"-feeling. Then i read comments of ppl that most likely have played the game way more than me and still don't get the point with the post? Wow... Really.. Wow..

I thought it was a great reading, and it opened my eyes to some things that in hindsight are really obvious and logical (though, i've always used BoT over Power treads, found out that myself..).

Anyhow: thanks for a great post and keep the things coming!

[Mellow]

Really? I do pretty well with them... the ones I have the most trouble with are strength heroes... I do ok with with INT and AGI heroes... but strength heroes always seem to go sideways for me.
Agreed. Int and (some) agi heroes are easy because of long range attacks. You can stay in the safe area and still do things. However, with melee attacks (most str and some agi), you have to get right into the fray. Which is hard to handle for newbies that don't know when to retreat etc.

[Arkaen]

:o
Really? I do pretty well with them... the ones I have the most trouble with are strength heroes... I do ok with with INT and AGI heroes... but strength heroes always seem to go sideways for me.

Agility heroes aren't that great for new players to play because of the fact that newbies will become accustomed to them and thus, occasionally because of this, there is an all carry team that fails horribly against a better balanced team. (1-2 Tanks, 2-3 carries, and 1-2 support heroes) I've experienced this in an all newb game before, to a degree, where I was the only non carry on my team.

Also, this was a good guide from the fact that steam boots are inefficient for casters in itself; for some reason, I never figured that out :o

[fulgorestyle]

this guy knows what he is talking about, arrogance or not

[Stekare]

How to play a hero, depends on its role in that very game. Sometimes a supportpyra is needed, other times a gank**pyro is wanted.

Playing support is prob the most boring sounding part of a team, but it is an essential one (and I would say pretty fun actually), being the one to let the carries get the farm/lasthits, leaving themselves with a small cashflow. Most of your gold will probably go into wards for vision and destroying the opposing teams vision. It is therefore important to have an efficient itembuild. Usually a supporters build consists of phase boots(don't remember the HoN name sorry), wards, teleportation scrolls (always being there when things happen) and a couple of bracers (fortified something..) for hp. You don't need much more to be efficient. Choices on additional items would be made depending on the hero of course.

Anyways, knowing your role may be the most important piece of HoN/DotA, and the role might differ from the different heroes that are in your team. Items would also differ according to which role you're playing (I mentioned a pretty common support build above). A hero such as Pyro could play several roles, ganger and support most commonly, but I imagine a carrypyro could work. Anyways the focus would not be on the attack damage of pyro, but the spells/itemabilities. I guess I could go on, but I feel like doing something else atm. I'd be glad to be a part of this guide, I just have to play a bit more HoN, as I'm still doing Dota pretty much.

[Prophecy1]

Peon, don't let all these naysayers wear on you. You're definitely right, there is an absolute right and wrong way to play this game. Sure certain heroes can fill more than one role, but some are very specialized.

This one time, a guy on my team tried to play Earthshaker as a tank, and not a caster. He finished 0 and 15. I laughed, because I tried telling him that he would never be able to be a tank with that hero.

With some heroes, it's just the way it is.

[ma5]

IMO a good pyro only needs Bottle Phase Boots and 2 bracers ( dont know item names off the top of my head) and gank nonstop with runes.
2 nulls if you're not a noob.

[Stekare]

2 nulls if you're not a noob.

That would also depend on what enemies you're facing.. Nukers = bracers.

[Ryno2112]

I fully support this guide. for most heroes phase boots are better than steam marchers, seeing them on pyro or glacius or a hero like pudge is just... Your specifics are spot on too. The majority of HoN really has no idea what it means to have hero roles and to be anything BUT a carry. HoN's a team game in which your A typical team should ahve one carry, one tank, one support, one caster dps, and one gangker. A typical team remember that. When I play I fidn most teams have two-three carries, sometimes a tank, a caster DPS, and a gangker. USUALLY this team will have one ranged hero, in reality you want AT LEAST two ranged heroes, personalyly I like to have three one for each lane.

The majority of the guides here try to turn every hero into a carry, i approve of reminding the guides makers that not every hero is designed to be a carry and that they should post how a hero should be played rather than supporting this newbie carrying bs that we're seeing everywhere. If I have a polly priest on my team I want to expect him to be supporting, not KSing with lightening or something. Keep on keeping on OP.

[Completeli]

I think the debate between whether he was right or wrong in the OP's post is over. It's obvious he was right. Everyone may not want to have the official title "COMPETITIVE PLAYER" but everyone is a competitor its the nature of the game. So to that end his information was correct.

Now a really off-topic question because I'm hoping someone better than me can help. Something I REALLLY have a hard time with as lina/pyro or any gank really (cm/glacius) also. I'm having trouble pulling off successful ganks, mostly on mid and top lanes. I go and either wait soo long for them to push away from their tower it wasnt worth it, or i wait too long and they turn back and i have to tower dive and get one to 20 hp and die, or have to run through the jungle and they mozy back to fountain at almost no health.

[BoxersSlayer]

Thanks for the excellent post! It makes perfect sense, and while all of this had been logical to me on some level, seeing it explained and argumented just produces that bright little ray of enlightenment :)

About all the controversy that it's not fun enough and all serious and unoriginal and telling you what to do; it's a guide. Guides are there to tell you what works and what doesn't. That's the point. Original insanities are always fun, but it wouldn't be as much fun if you kept using some crazy strategy you found somewhere, believing it to be the optimal build because it had worked a few times, then frustratingly lost the next 20 games without knowing why (or kept losing tight games because of sub-par "established" builds). There has also been the accusation of pompous arrogance; I've seen pompous arrogance before, and this was not it.

[FLashFIr]

I agree with the original poster. I dub all of thee who vehemently disagree, NUB. And you get added to my banlist.


Basic word of advise...

It's like writing, you gotta learn to follow the builds and WHY you follow them and then once you understand you can break all the rules if you need/want to.

Everyone claims you don't need to learn the builds, I do what I want and see it works sometimes (because other morons like you are failing harder than you)
Example: "I can get helm of legion on every hero because it keeps me alive and I carry in the end because I live right?". I saw an Arachna get a helm of legion, and she didn't carry for ages. She's a DPS carry. They had a Tree/Warlock (the Demon stun and the Roots stun for ults). She doesn't need that item. Just because she bought it and won does not AUTOMATICALLY MEAN you buy.

Noob logic:
Logic fail. (failblog worthy)
I was Arachna. I bought Helm of Legion. I died less. I won game. Therefore: BUILD HELM OF LEGION FOR ARACHNA BUILD. <--- Insert any hero name here OR any item here.

I agree with the original poster. I dub all of thee who vehemently disagree, NUB. And you get added to my banlist.


Then I guess the top players that make cutting edge builds for us to copy and paste into forums like this are NUB and they should stop making innovative builds.

This is just a typical thing I would expect to see from some TDA "King of DotA" that is not only the best thing that ever happened to DotA, but is also so dearly loved by all his subjects.

In my opinion, this topic is right in the sense that some people need to see very basic logical ideas written out so they can go "oh yea, that makes sense, I don't need attack speed when all I need to do is last hit and cast support/nuke spells".

There are some strange carry builds out there for your everyday support hero but the thing people seem to have trouble wrapping their mind around is that its not about score. DotA/HoN isn't about how positive your k/d ratio is, its about winning (a standard carry based team isn't necessarily the only way to win, ex. push/gank teams that end games very early). It is so easy to sit in a lane and last hit for 30 minutes with minor map awareness and come out and kill everyone. Carry players simply farm and kill heros. Support players gank/push/defend/ward/and hold the enemy still so the carry can hit them. But people continue to assume that carrying is the important job that only pros can do. Thats why EMs are basically who can make the best carry out of their hero because everyone gets enough gold to buy anything and everything (this is mainly where new players get the idea that they need to build characters to get kills and be the best carry they can be, imo).

(rant rant rant ramble ramble rant ramble)

You guys should totally make a new thread about common misconceptions about items/heros so that new players coming up in the world of HoN and DotA can understand the ideas behind them so players can effectively integrate them into realistic item builds and guides.

[Iam_Dinos]

imo making a guide about pyro not getting crit and attack speed is kind of worthless. Anyone with any of their brain parts intact would know not to do this, and if you were really so dumb as to build these items, in all honesty could that person even read?

[Jo]

I spent 5 minutes reading this long guide after a promising intro and learned not to get riftshard on blacksmith. I'm feeling slightly tricked.

[KuroKitten]

Then I guess the top players that make cutting edge builds for us to copy and paste into forums like this are NUB and they should stop making innovative builds.

This is just a typical thing I would expect to see from some TDA "King of DotA" that is not only the best thing that ever happened to DotA, but is also so dearly loved by all his subjects.

In my opinion, this topic is right in the sense that some people need to see very basic logical ideas written out so they can go "oh yea, that makes sense, I don't need attack speed when all I need to do is last hit and cast support/nuke spells".

There are some strange carry builds out there for your everyday support hero but the thing people seem to have trouble wrapping their mind around is that its not about score. DotA/HoN isn't about how positive your k/d ratio is, its about winning (a standard carry based team isn't necessarily the only way to win, ex. push/gank teams that end games very early). It is so easy to sit in a lane and last hit for 30 minutes with minor map awareness and come out and kill everyone. Carry players simply farm and kill heros. Support players gank/push/defend/ward/and hold the enemy still so the carry can hit them. But people continue to assume that carrying is the important job that only pros can do. Thats why EMs are basically who can make the best carry out of their hero because everyone gets enough gold to buy anything and everything (this is mainly where new players get the idea that they need to build characters to get kills and be the best carry they can be, imo).

(rant rant rant ramble ramble rant ramble)

You guys should totally make a new thread about common misconceptions about items/heros so that new players coming up in the world of HoN and DotA can understand the ideas behind them so players can effectively integrate them into realistic item builds and guides.

Very well said. I agree completely. I've actually had games where I've been playing as Puck (in DotA) and had someone rant and rave at my 2/11/25 score, calling me n00b and so on. All they were able to see was the 2/11 - it didn't even cross their mind that maybe some games are won because one person consistently lost their life in order to finish off 4 enemy heroes. DotA/HoN are, afterall, TEAM GAMES.

I've beaten teams with a completely fed Terrorblade (in DotA) because none of the other members were any good. The one hero may have had an outrages Kill to Death ratio, and he may have been able to smite any one of us - heck, probably any two of us - but it wasn't enough to finish off a full team of 5 people working together, and pushing lanes with the correct rythm.

I think the biggest reason we see players like this is simply because this is a mentality that most gamers are bringing over from the other games they play - the majority of which are single player games, where it's extremely important for YOU to do as well as you can, and there is little to no consideration for a team entity.

More on topic: I like what this guide is doing, and I will do my best to contribute when I can. I still have a lot of aclimating to do with HoN - I've been playing DotA for nearly 6 or 7 years now, so I've still got to get used to the new environment =)

Meow!

[drasked]

Nice writeup. Don't get me wrong, but isn't it a lot more practical to post the right info in the actual guide or write your own guide instead. If you wanna do this right it will turn into a huge mini-guide thread like the one on the dota forums (it is uber but lot of work to make and maintain)

Your guide's title suggests other guides give the wrong information. There is no right direction for a game that's based on player skill. A build may work for you more, but it won't work for anyone. If someone is better at playing a support hero and you're telling them to play it as a DPS, it won't work better for them.

Perhaps a better title is in order? Aside from one just telling all the other guides to stop coming up with new ideas because we've already got builds that work. Who needs creativity, anyways. God knows absolutely NO professional players use different item strategies based on what heroes are in the game.

I just think there is a better way than tearing up other guides that people have worked hard on. Maybe I'll make a guide bashing this one and pointing out all the flaws in it.

Yeah, maybe a better title is the go, but kudos to Furious for going into more depth on items than many of the other guides on this forum. He explains himself well in regards to mechanics and gives noobies somewhere to start. Give the guy a break...

[Vesper25]

Level 5 Codex on Pyromancer? Har har.

[Eversong]

G u i d e

Everyone is seeing this word? Some ppl make guides better than others, some try alternate builds and share with us. To newcomer it provides usefull information about the new hero (for them)that will play! to advance people usually is a way to SHARE INFORMATION and COMPARE your thoughs about a particulary hero, and try to improve IF the ideas described in guide fits your style or they way you see the hero.

Conclusion: its a guide... its not the holy bible of HoN that if you not play like it say you will be a sinner and your soul will be lost forever.

;)

[KingLeoric]

Very well said. I agree completely. I've actually had games where I've been playing as Puck (in DotA) and had someone rant and rave at my 2/11/25 score, calling me n00b and so on. All they were able to see was the 2/11 - it didn't even cross their mind that maybe some games are won because one person consistently lost their life in order to finish off 4 enemy heroes. DotA/HoN are, afterall, TEAM GAMES.

I've beaten teams with a completely fed Terrorblade (in DotA) because none of the other members were any good. The one hero may have had an outrages Kill to Death ratio, and he may have been able to smite any one of us - heck, probably any two of us - but it wasn't enough to finish off a full team of 5 people working together, and pushing lanes with the correct rythm.

I think the biggest reason we see players like this is simply because this is a mentality that most gamers are bringing over from the other games they play - the majority of which are single player games, where it's extremely important for YOU to do as well as you can, and there is little to no consideration for a team entity.

More on topic: I like what this guide is doing, and I will do my best to contribute when I can. I still have a lot of aclimating to do with HoN - I've been playing DotA for nearly 6 or 7 years now, so I've still got to get used to the new environment =)

Meow!

There are intelligent people, playing this game? You have brought a smolder to my blackened dead heart. :) I can not tell you how many people are obsessed with k/d. Self-sacrifice for your team's benefit is a thankless job (mostly), but a dirty one that needs to be done. No one seems to understand that assists count. FFS, assists are kills where you didn't land the killing blow.

This guide is great. It's one thing to say "here's what you should do," but entirely different to say "here's *why* you should do this." As for tone, text can never convey tone, and so I thank you for your to-the-point posts.

[frenzy_one]

1. Never look down on other peoples way of doing things. If you want to help someone you shouldnt start by saying "this is bad..".
2. There´s a reason behind everything, even if the reason doesnt make sense to you, it might be a reason to someone else.
3. I just read the first page :)
4. Everytime I play slither I go wards build. enuff said.

A lot of people call themself liberal and in the same sentence say that non-liberal people "suxx"...how is that liberal?

5. Numbers, calculation, math...dont apply to real life. They do to video games. So that means there is PERFECT builds.
6. People who play the games exists in real-life so that makes the above statement unrelevant depending on the person.

I´m not making sense to anyone probably. but I wanna type so...whatever. I love playing warding slither so I do it. I love crushing games with behemoth so I go arcane/blink. It´s all about what YOU wanna accomplish when playing.....wards in pub games? lol waste of gold you can smell the ganks miles away.....not warding in competitive is giving your gold away.

MOST IMPORTANT SENTENCE INCOMING!

Every build needs to state what it wants to accomplish.
"why would I use this build?" is the first question you should ask yourself when reading it.

I´ll give myself for an example. I just skip through all the text, read the skill/item build to see if I can find something I havent thought of and when I see the builds I figure out why he did it that way and ignore it or embrace it. It´s all about what you want and what they are selling.

Assist isnt necessarily where you have been useful. You could have ****ed up and accidentally hit a hero that got killed. The game is SO much deeper then K/D/A. Creep kill/denies, tower deny, warding a jungling tempest(lol on this one btw). Lots of things that doesnt show in stats. Also a thing thats very true, if you suicide initiate with a coward team then your being stupid. You need to adapt to your team and assimilate their playstyle. You cant just always do whats best. There is so much depth to the game because its being played with 10 brains not with 10 heroes on AI.

A totally GOOD player doesnt just do the PERFECT build. He adapts his build to the teams heroes builds, he carries with pyro if you get a noob madman, he supports the carry accursed. I can give a perfect example of this;

Hook/arrow. If you face a "noob" and try to hit a pro then your gonna go zomgwtf why didnt he try to avoid, so you miss....that is the essence of any competitive game....Play on the level your game is and ADAPT.

The best comment I´ve seen in this post is the one about guides being guidelines not a bible saying your going to hell if you dont follow it.