Should EM be removed altogether? (Updated)

[ComeOnHitMe]

Read before voting, don't be lazy! :D

Why does Easy Mode exist in HoN? I really believe it needs to go. The game is "designed to be played in normal mode", so why is the mode here? It's like a cheap version of HoN/DotA. This is why I think it should be removed...
It:
1. doesn't shorten the game (both gametypes can be short, but in EM it's more because of hero selection, not team skill level disparity as in NM (the way it should be)) :(
2. takes some of the gameplay elements/skill away; it cheapens the game (last hitting, denying are insignificant) :(
3. "no balance in game transition" (consists mostly of ganking, intel heroes get the short end of the stick, and agility heroes (carry heroes) become the most effective) :(
4. confuses the "standard balance of a hero" and results in bad balance changes :(
5. splits up the community, making it more difficult to start a match :(
6. lessens the amount of players who are capable of playing the game the way it's supposed to be played. :(

EM is ruining this game's shine, and if S2 doesn't do something about this, it will remain as a whole, somewhat dull.

Quotes and ideas borrowed from and inspired by Shockwaves.

If you want to read more on why Easy Mode is hindering, and not helping HoN/DotA check out this thread by Will` who first quoted Shockwaves:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=24799 (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=24799)

[AusSkiller]

I'm an easy mode player, but even I want it removed. I started playing easy mode when I first played HoN thinking I'd go to normal mode when I get good enough, but since I've learned to play in easy mode I don't know what I should be buying anymore in normal mode and so I've just been sticking to em because I don't want to have to go through all of the learning again :(.

But if it was removed I wouldn't miss it and consolidating the community will make it easier to find good games and help keep balance between heroes.

[Varp]

EM games are for when i don't care about balance for half an hour, and just wanna pubstomp some noobs.
It's still fun from time to time :p

[ComeOnHitMe]

Bump

[ComeOnHitMe]

EM games are for when i don't care about balance for half an hour, and just wanna pubstomp some noobs.
It's still fun from time to time :p

Not at all a good enough reason to keep EM alive Varp...

[vinlol]

I'm tired of all the EM vs non-em threads.
-em shouldn't count for stats, or at least be distinguished from normal mode.

Many of the people that complain about OP heroes have only played -em games.

[ComeOnHitMe]

Bump

[thossr1]

EM only hurts if you let it. I play EM for pubs, and NM when I play with friends. Its not hard to play both, so I fail to see how its a problem.

Its not like you CAN'T deny/last hit in EM. People just don't do it (yes, i know that it isn't nearly as important in EM), which is their fault.

[Shifthappenz]

EM is for new players to learn the game.

They still are given the chance to buy and test items even when losing/dying.

So no, it should not be removed.

[Zakharov]

EM is absolutely necessary to stop EM players from playing non-EM games. People aren't noobs because they play EM, they play EM because they're noobs. On a related note, it is actually easier for newer players, due to the fact that it punishes mistakes less. So long as S2 doesn't make the mistake of trying to balance for EM, it's not hurting anyone.

[ComeOnHitMe]

EM is for new players to learn the game.

They still are given the chance to buy and test items even when losing/dying.

So no, it should not be removed.

EM is for new players to learn the game the WRONG way... take a minute to read this:


I can understand how a new player becomes extremely daunted when he is faced with DotA [HoN] for the first time. It's a rough experience, filled with a lot of insults, that generally ends in dissatisfaction but puts within the player a desire to overcome and succeed (generally). So they play again, and again, and again. They eventually become decent and actually aid their team instead of detrimenting it. The same occurs in -em, though the transition into 'pro' occurs much sooner. So, from time to time, -em players think they're so good they'll use their skills in my matches to dominate the enemy team. They'll pick their standard agility carry hero, or will swap for one since I usually play random modes, and be well on their way to dominating only to find out that hero stacking doesn't work so well in standard matches. They start dying to organized ganks and intelligence heroes don't fall down like the paper they're supposed to be. The player's knowledge on game transition is faulty so he won't understand how the game flow occurs and generally just dies and feeds a lot. So I lose a player within a half hour that ruins the game for me and my team by feeding and he leaves discouraged back to -em where he'll continue the wrong practices of play until he decides yet again to make another failed foray into the standard community.

[ComeOnHitMe]

EM is absolutely necessary to stop EM players from playing non-EM games. People aren't noobs because they play EM, they play EM because they're noobs. On a related note, it is actually easier for newer players, due to the fact that it punishes mistakes less. So long as S2 doesn't make the mistake of trying to balance for EM, it's not hurting anyone.

Yea, I'm sure it does keep EM players in the EM games, but again that:

1. Keeps the community seperated, making it more difficult to get a match going...
2. Keeps the players in EM playing the same game in the wrong way, which results in sustaining them as noobs, never allowing them to progress (even if it was forced upon them, it's better than leaving them the way they are) to NM, the way HoN is meant to be played (the right way), keeping it balanced and fluid and more fun.

Read this if you don't understand me:


he leaves discouraged back to -em where he'll continue the wrong practices of play until he decides yet again to make another failed foray into the standard community.

[ComeOnHitMe]

Bump

[PhishPaste]

They tried to do this in DotA, and it failed horrendously.

I'll tell you this, I'm a player of both em and non em. Majority em infact, about 90%, but that doesn't mean I'm worse off than any other player. Some non em players are complete crap, and some em players are better than non em players.

I think you're mistaking EM for BEGINNERS, and EM for EXPERIENCED PLAYERS. There is quite a difference. Then there is non EM for BEGINNERS, and EM for EXPERIENCED PLAYERS. There are ladders within each section it self.

For experienced em players, they know how to do everything required to function in a non em game. Beginners on the other hand will just go solo and proceed to fail at everything.

Well I play only non-ab and so there is a significant amount of team work involved anyway.

There are differences among them, and so I don't really believe removing EM is the solution.

[Varp]

Not at all a good enough reason to keep EM alive Varp...
I fail to see why not? If i wanna have fun playing a game, and once a week that includes an EM game, let me.
I know EM isn't balanced and all, but there's that one time i don't care about balance and just wanna empty my head while pubstomping :)

[RatedRKO]

Aren't 60% of all games EM?

If it was removed, S2 could potentially miss out on a lot of money and players.

[Steven]

I'm an easy mode player, but even I want it removed. I started playing easy mode when I first played HoN thinking I'd go to normal mode when I get good enough, but since I've learned to play in easy mode I don't know what I should be buying anymore in normal mode and so I've just been sticking to em because I don't want to have to go through all of the learning again :(.

But if it was removed I wouldn't miss it and consolidating the community will make it easier to find good games and help keep balance between heroes.

LOL this is the exact reason i still play EM cause when i go to a normal game and buy items everyones like "THIS ISNT EM" im like "AAAH" then everyone flames you constantly ALL game making the game boring as hell and if something bad happens to the team is always your fault regardless of you being there or not cause youre SOOO noob for building like youre in EM lolol.

[noodle0117]

Even though I don't play EM, I disagree on the idea of completely removing EM.
Think of it as removing WTF mode in Dota.
WTF mode is obviously imbalanced, but they still keep it in there for fun.
I think the problem lies on the preferences of all the players instead of the game mode itself.
There are more EM games out there than normal games.
There should be something to distract or discourage players from playing EM, but the mode should not be completely removed.

[ComeOnHitMe]

Why should EM exist, when it lowers the choices you can make and lacks variety (carry heros are the way to go, last hitting and denying become unimportant, and intel heroes become obsolete in mid to late game), teaches players to play the game in the wrong way (because of how unbalanced it is with game transition...). What I want to see is one main game mode, which brings players together into one big family, instead of splitting the community up, making it less easy to get a game going. Either keep NM or keep EM, but I think one of them has to go, I can't see any good reason why there's two; it makes me decide whether I want to play EM (because it's harder to get a NM game going) and force feed the unbalanced issues and "cheapness" surrounding it down my throat, or take the time to get a NM game going (even though EM sucks over half of the community into it's meaningless, unbalanced void, making it harder for a match to start). We should have one core mode to choose from, it'll join us all up, and keep this game played in the right way, where it really shines. EM is ruining this game's shine, and if S2 doesn't do something about this, it will remain as a whole, somewhat dull.

[Zadam]

Why is EM mode considered to bad and wrong? If more people are playing EM than non-EM, then clearly most people prefer EM. Last I checked we play games for fun, and if people find EM more fun, why remove it, other than to be a fun spoiling old fuddy-duddy?

[BarneyGumbal]

You guys are exaggerating the lack of NM games. I can jump in one and be in-game within 5 minutes.

EM should definitely stay. It taught me how to play so many heroes, even if I did poorly I could still get items and test stuff out. If I had have started HoN in NM, I probably wouldn't be playing it now.

Everyone wants to see all the shiny skills and feel victory, particularly when they're just starting.

[thossr1]

teaches players to play the game in the wrong way

Who are you to decide what's the right way to play this game?


Why is EM mode considered to bad and wrong? If more people are playing EM than non-EM, then clearly most people prefer EM. Last I checked we play games for fun, and if people find EM more fun, why remove it, other than to be a fun spoiling old fuddy-duddy?

I really don't understand why people on this forum see it as such a big problem. Not to mention assume that people who play EM can only play EM.

[SyKot]

Take away stats from -EM. Change the name.

[thossr1]

Take away stats from -EM. Change the name.
Why would you take away stats from the more popular version?

It makes no sense.

I'd understand if you said separate stats, but just straight removal?

[Zakharov]

teaches players to play the game in the wrong way

It teaches players to play EM the right way.

Lots of people only play one or two games a week. They don't care about balance, they don't care about improving, they just want to have fun. If you got rid of EM, 50-90% of those players would simply quit.

[ComeOnHitMe]

I'm an easy mode player, but even I want it removed. I started playing easy mode when I first played HoN thinking I'd go to normal mode when I get good enough, but since I've learned to play in easy mode I don't know what I should be buying anymore in normal mode and so I've just been sticking to em because I don't want to have to go through all of the learning again :(.

But if it was removed I wouldn't miss it and consolidating the community will make it easier to find good games and help keep balance between heroes.

Thank you AusSkiller

[Steven]

It teaches players to play EM the right way.

Lots of people only play one or two games a week. They don't care about balance, they don't care about improving, they just want to have fun. If you got rid of EM, 50-90% of those players would simply quit.

LOL at one game a week. I assure you, most people playing this do not play once a week.

EM mode taught me to play the wrong way in non em games. Im so used to playing a certain way in EM that when i play non em i suck. It does require a different style of playing and i wish there was one mode as well wether it be EM or non to balance the hero pool out.

[_Archangel_]

It makes players worse at the game. Remove it.

[KhorneElite]

>EM gaems
>roflcopter :D

CHOO CHOO.
All aboard the EM train.
Huehauehuaheuhuaehuaheuhea.

[COOLFACEBRO]

It makes players worse at the game. Remove it.
Agreed.

[Farkon]

It keeps players that suck, away from my non-em games though.

[Kcolraw]

easy mode needs to be RENAMED

[ComeOnHitMe]

It makes players worse at the game. Remove it.

That's what I was trying to say when I started this thread. Thank you; agreed.

[Zakharov]

It makes players worse at the game. Remove it.

Who cares? Some people don't want to be good at this game, they just want to play it and have fun. How does it hurt you to let them do so? I don't think you'd want them in your games anyway.

[N3uRosiS]

I would love to see em not count towards stats.

[ComeOnHitMe]

Who cares? Some people don't want to be good at this game, they just want to play it and have fun. How does it hurt you to let them do so? I don't think you'd want them in your games anyway.

I want the people who aren't good at the game (probably a lot because of EM's misguidance of how to play HoN) to get good because they won't get much better (if any) playing EM, since it's teaching them the wrong methods.

It would bring every body together into one big happy gaming pool, and help those who are confused because of EM to become clear and start playing HoN the way it shines.

I'm sure it would upset some of those EM players who are convinced EM is the "way to play", but if S2 went about removing Easy Mode the right way (somehow explaining how EM is an unbalanced version of HoN), the profit and value of the game would be much greater in the end.

[Zakharov]

I want the people who aren't good at the game (probably a lot because of EM's misguidance of how to play HoN) to get good because they won't get much better (if any) playing EM, since it's teaching them the wrong methods.

I used to play Warcraft III a little bit with friends. I'd play on random maps, build whatever units I felt like and have no particular strategy. If someone came in and told me that I should instead play only on tournament maps, go for only the best builds, and strive to get my APM to 100, I'd tell them to piss off. Similarly, your idea that everyone should try to "get good at playing the game right" would piss of the large player base that considers HoN to simply be one of the games they sometimes play.

[ComeOnHitMe]

your idea that everyone should try to "get good at playing the game right" would piss of the large player base that considers HoN to simply be one of the games they sometimes play.

But I want this game to be THE game they play, and in its current state with Easy Mode being unbalanced and with half the players being stuck in EM's "cheap style of playing HoN" (seperating the community in half also ain't a good thing in itself), it's not going to be the awesome game I want it to be.

[RotterdaM08]

even though i dislike it a lot and think its noobish, you cant remove it, lots of people enjoy easymode for whatever reasons, theyre playing the same game as us, more players = good = dumb to remove em, even though i wouldnt care less, but voted no, you will shrink the community by removing it instead of "uniting" it

[NoxMortem]

I dislike EM too - already did in DotA. One of the main reason is the bad choice of name. EM is not really a "easy mode". Still it only depends on the other team.

If it would be named "Fun Mode" and would not count for stats i think that would be great. Why should we take the players the possibility to play how they want, but it should not count for stats and people should not think it is a "easier" mode - where they will get better stats. If they do so than only because good people maybe prefer to play HoN without EM.

I also hope there wont be ANY balance changes for EM - because the balance is so different there, and some heroes benefit from the EM even more than others do.

[thossr1]

the profit and value of the game would be much greater in the end.
How do you figure that making the game more restrictive would make it more profitable?

You're alienating an entire user base. Your idea of profit is very odd.

[ComeOnHitMe]

How do you figure that making the game more restrictive would make it more profitable?

You're alienating an entire user base. Your idea of profit is very odd.

Easy Mode should never have come into existance in the first place, since it unbalances the game and doesn't shorten the game (the main reason why it was made; it was called Short Mode for a period of time). But since there is a large user base who plays it, I can see why it would upset a lot of people, so maybe removing it entirely would not be the best idea (even though it shouldn't have been thought up in the first place). However something needs to be done to discourage players to play EM (because of it's unbalanced nature, cheapening HoN's value) and encourage players to switch over to NM (the way HoN/DotA was meant to be played, the balanced way).

[thossr1]

Now you're giving a suggestion, without actually giving a suggestion. How do you propose they go about doing this?

And this is just splitting hairs but EM definitely does make the game shorter (at least usually). More exp = faster lvling, higher lvl = longer respawn. Longer respawn = more time to end game when team gets rolled. Not to mention the fact that carries can start the rapage about 20 mins earlier.

[ComeOnHitMe]

How do you propose they go about doing this?

Either remove EM, or change it: make it shorten games a notable amount (the stats for NM and EM game length are pretty close, even if EM games are a bit shorter on average), and make it balanced (who wants to play a game if it's unbalanced? I don't).

[LolTheForce]

I'd personally cheer for a removal. However I can see people obviously think it's fun but I definetley think stats should not be counted. To me it's like taking stats in -wtf.

[thossr1]

(who wants to play a game if it's unbalanced? I don't).
The majority of people who play hon?

There's a reason more EM games are played than NM. =-x

[ComeOnHitMe]

I'd personally cheer for a removal. However I can see people obviously think it's fun but I definetley think stats should not be counted. To me it's like taking stats in -wtf.

Agreed. If anything, stats should not be counted in EM.

[KingMoscow]

I'd just like EM to be renamed to something different, or new players given a warning that it isn't in fact a good way to learn HoN.

The name is misleading.

It also shouldn't count for stats.

[ComeOnHitMe]

Bump

[Blacksmith]

I'm going to put on my flame retardant suit here, but am I the only one that thinks a lot of the "OMG EM IS SO STUPID AND LAME AND U SUCK" mantra is often times just an excuse for people with low KDR's and bad stats to defend themselves?

"Dude, stop feeding, you're 0-5 15 minutes in."
"Whatever, this is EM and you're a baddie."

Or

"I have a cool idea I'd like to hear what the community thinks about it."
"Too bad, you might be 1950 PSR and have a 2.0 KDR, but you've played 60% EM games and are clearly therefore way worse than me and my .7 KDR and 1605 PSR."

If people want to play EM, let them. It doesn't "hurt" your normal mode games in anyway.

[Zadam]

It makes players worse at the game. Remove it.

Wrong. It stops players improving at non-EM games. Very distinct difference. Likewise playing non-EM games stops players improving at EM games. Of course playing one mode will make you better at playing in that mode, but not the other. That's pretty obvious though isn't it?

Since EM mode is the more played and more popular game mode, there is clearly no possible valid reason to have it removed.