Backdoor System

[fnacke1]

Hello, due many matches playing against immature people backdooring have an issue, people just cant play "fair" or what now to call it... To be honest the makers of this game should create a backdooring system, that makes all atleast BASE buildings invunerable if theres no creeps in the base.

My opinion, how about you folks?

[Whitebushid1]

Hello, due many matches playing against immature people backdooring have an issue, people just cant play "fair" or what now to call it... To be honest the makers of this game should create a backdooring system, that makes all atleast BASE buildings invunerable if theres no creeps in the base.

My opinion, how about you folks?

No. Backdooring is fair, it's counterable with tping and defending. It's not immature to backdoor, it's smart.

[Vesper25]

We need a Glyph of Fortification, that's it.

[Mart1n2]

I remember reading in dota the league rules were no tping to the other base using travel or furions teleport was defined as backdooring. Therefore rushing the base without creeps is NOT considered backdooring.........

[Jo]

glyph needs to be ingame, I asumed backdooring was not legal but will adapt if it is.

[Guile]

We need a Glyph of Fortification, that's it.

would be nice

[Verbati]

or actually make your own games, say no backdoor, and if they still do it, ban them and they can't do it to you again. problem solved...

/sigheth

[SoleSurvivor]

We just need a system like DotA, if a tower or a strure recieve damage withow creeps just heal the same damage recieved.

[Daroxlolz]

People just didn't play DotA and mostly don't even know what backdooring is. And even though there are no rules in HoN to forbid backdooring, it's still really annoying :/

[Vadi]

Haven't played dota and find this to be an odd issue. Its okay to gank, it's okay to KS, it's okay to leave teammates to die, but... it's not okay to accomplish the game's goal in a certain way.

Esp. when everything is counterable and thus isn't an issue. It's a protip that everyone should have homecoming stones...

[Daroxlolz]

Forbiding backdooring was done to avoid carries or tanks in Mid/end game to ninja/sucide kill towers and racks, without the opposing team noticing or being able to do something.

Let's say you have a farmed scout in end game, you can pretty much kill a tower in like 15seconds or so, and you're stealth as soon as the tower is down, so, even if your team is loosing, you can destroy towers/rax and get mega creeps, and win the game, and this, even if your base in being pushed at the 3 lanes.
Sure, the opposing teams should have TPs etc.. but you're stealth, you can switch from tower to tower as soon as someone TP. It's not like the tower will rape you end game, you don't need to regen, you don't need to face the enemy heroes, you don't need any sort of team play or skill, you just destroy buildings. That's not the point of the game, even if the goal is to destroy a building.

Ell, it's my point of view and I'm sure you'll find some counter arguments but overall, if it has became bannable to backdoor in DotA, it's for a reason.


(sorry for my bad english)

[Level5Pidgey]

I have an opposition to backdooring, not because it is intensely powerful, or is hard to counter. As said, just have TPs, teleport back, kill the Backdoorer, go back to raxxing their base.

The way it was used against me a few times today was mainly to annoy us and drag out the game. We had a fairly good set of characters (read: A little sucky, no amazing heroes) - the enemy team had a much better loadout (read: Allstar team with Zeus, Luna, etc.). We overcame this obstacle by working as a team, pushing at the right times, defending at the right times, ganking well. We really outplayed them, in my opinion. They had some of the strongest heroes in the game, and we beat them with less powerful ones.

So, as we were raxxing them (2 base towers down - mid, bot), we noted that their tank had pushed top quite far. 2 of us teleported back, to find he'd taken out our base tower. We killed him, while the other 3 on our team retreated as to not get risk being killed, 4v3.
We noted that now top was getting a lot of waves of creeps, as our creeps were held up in our base. We dealt with them (unfortunately we had no great creep clearing heroes), while ensuring that as we did this, no other lanes were pushed.

We got back to their base, all 5 of us. As if the Backdoor had never happened.
But... as we kept raxxing carefully, so we didn't get owned by the other team's better characters, who did we see in our base?
The enemy's tank.

We did the same thing.

Then who was at our base?

The enemy's tank again.

We were forced to push top, so that the creeps didn't flood our base, making more of a problem.
I don't think we were ever in *real* danger, due to the way we handled the situation - like, the towers closest to the Throne were intact at the end - but considering the amount of time it added onto the game, and the possibility that if we didn't play it cautiously enough, the enemy could have team downed us eventually and gotten an upper hand?

I think it's... questionable as a valid strategy.

[MavsWorld]

Doesn't sound like he backdoored if he had creeps with him. Backdooring is ignoring where creeps are and just running into base and destroying towers. This is very easy in DotA with characters like Terrorblade, Krobelus, Tormented Soul, Sylla. All can quickly wipe out towers and rax from full hp with no creep support relatively early in the game. Tping will not save you as they can quickly respawn and do it again. It also cuts out the creeps from the game who are an important aspect of HoN and DotA.

Backdooring non deniable towers is banned in Dota League. This is because it takes skill out of the game as mentioned before with the scout example. By forcing teams to push with their creeps the scout tactic doesn't work. Backdooring is even easier in HoN as towers are significantly weaker than Dota towers against heroes.

[Damendar]

I have an opposition to backdooring, not because it is intensely powerful, or is hard to counter. As said, just have TPs, teleport back, kill the Backdoorer, go back to raxxing their base.

The way it was used against me a few times today was mainly to annoy us and drag out the game. We had a fairly good set of characters (read: A little sucky, no amazing heroes) - the enemy team had a much better loadout (read: Allstar team with Zeus, Luna, etc.). We overcame this obstacle by working as a team, pushing at the right times, defending at the right times, ganking well. We really outplayed them, in my opinion. They had some of the strongest heroes in the game, and we beat them with less powerful ones.

So, as we were raxxing them (2 base towers down - mid, bot), we noted that their tank had pushed top quite far. 2 of us teleported back, to find he'd taken out our base tower. We killed him, while the other 3 on our team retreated as to not get risk being killed, 4v3.
We noted that now top was getting a lot of waves of creeps, as our creeps were held up in our base. We dealt with them (unfortunately we had no great creep clearing heroes), while ensuring that as we did this, no other lanes were pushed.

We got back to their base, all 5 of us. As if the Backdoor had never happened.
But... as we kept raxxing carefully, so we didn't get owned by the other team's better characters, who did we see in our base?
The enemy's tank.

We did the same thing.

Then who was at our base?

The enemy's tank again.

We were forced to push top, so that the creeps didn't flood our base, making more of a problem.
I don't think we were ever in *real* danger, due to the way we handled the situation - like, the towers closest to the Throne were intact at the end - but considering the amount of time it added onto the game, and the possibility that if we didn't play it cautiously enough, the enemy could have team downed us eventually and gotten an upper hand?

I think it's... questionable as a valid strategy.

I'm sorry here, but...that story sounds to me like backdooring made the game BETTER?

They started using a non-standard tactic on you guys, who then had to adapt in a creative way to both maintain your traditional advantage and counter the backdoor tactic as well.

Sounds like their tank made a smart decision. He, by himself, was able to prevent you guys from 5 manning the final push. If you hadn't been on top of his behavior, he may have turned the game around. But you were, so you just had to change your own tactics, and keep up the overall pressure.

I dunno, as I said earlier, that sounds like it ADDED to the fun of this game, if anything.

[Level5Pidgey]

Forbiding backdooring was done to avoid carries or tanks in Mid/end game to ninja/sucide kill towers and racks, without the opposing team noticing or being able to do something.

Let's say you have a farmed scout in end game, you can pretty much kill a tower in like 15seconds or so, and you're stealth as soon as the tower is down, so, even if your team is loosing, you can destroy towers/rax and get mega creeps, and win the game, and this, even if your base in being pushed at the 3 lanes.
Sure, the opposing teams should have TPs etc.. but you're stealth, you can switch from tower to tower as soon as someone TP. It's not like the tower will rape you end game, you don't need to regen, you don't need to face the enemy heroes, you don't need any sort of team play or skill, you just destroy buildings. That's not the point of the game, even if the goal is to destroy a building.

Ell, it's my point of view and I'm sure you'll find some counter arguments but overall, if it has became bannable to backdoor in DotA, it's for a reason.


(sorry for my bad english)

That too.

Like, today, I was only annoyed by backdooring, I didn't lose the game because of it.

Good post :)


Doesn't sound like he backdoored if he had creeps with him. Backdooring is ignoring where creeps are and just running into base and destroying towers. This is very easy in DotA with characters like Terrorblade, Krobelus, Tormented Soul, Sylla. All can quickly wipe out towers and rax from full hp with no creep support relatively early in the game. Tping will not save you as they can quickly respawn and do it again. It also cuts out the creeps from the game who are an important aspect of HoN and DotA.

Backdooring non deniable towers is banned in Dota League. This is because it takes skill out of the game as mentioned before with the scout example. By forcing teams to push with their creeps the scout tactic doesn't work. Backdooring is even easier in HoN as towers are significantly weaker than Dota towers against heroes.
He didn't initially, but due to his backdooring, our creeps weren't entering the lane.


'm sorry here, but...that story sounds to me like backdooring made the game BETTER?

They started using a non-standard tactic on you guys, who then had to adapt in a creative way to both maintain your traditional advantage and counter the backdoor tactic as well.

Sounds like their tank made a smart decision. He, by himself, was able to prevent you guys from 5 manning the final push. If you hadn't been on top of his behavior, he may have turned the game around. But you were, so you just had to change your own tactics, and keep up the overall pressure.

I dunno, as I said earlier, that sounds like it ADDED to the fun of this game, if anything.

Hmm, I don't quite see it that way.
As said, there was a fair chance of things going wrong, and us losing for it. That would have been unfortunate - and, I will say this loosely, unfair. (You can say that we should be able to deal with backdooring, etc. - but... we played so well, it would have been a real dampener to lose... you know? Especially with a tactic such as this - which is a *little* underhanded, at least)

I see what you're saying, but, I can't say that joy was inspired into me while it was happening.
Like, you have to use crazily good techniques to lane against a great Puppet/Hellbringer/Luna/Zeus as a poor melee character - but it's not enjoyable, at least to me :P

And let's not forget how it dragged out the game D:

[lWinterbornl]

This will most likely be the biggest issue between DOTA fans, and people who never played it. And for those of you who havent played it, THIS IS BASED ALMOST COMPLETELY UPON DOTA. DOTA leagues usually stated that if there are creeps between your tower and the opposing team, and someone is attacking the tower, then its backdooring, and was illegal. However, as many people state, this is counterable, if you have any experience playing dota at all. Also, whoever stated that "Allowing your allies to die, ksing, running from battles, ganking". Ganking is strategy, and if you have a decent team of PLAYERS, then allowing teammates to die without benefit to you, usually will not happen.However, backdooring a rax, or tower with a hero such as syllabear, or his equivalent in this game, is purely cheap. There is no way to keep him from doing so, and a lvl six syllabear with a hyper stone can take out the entire lane without having to retreat.

On the flip side, BUY BOOTS OF TRAVEL(or the equivalent), OR A TP, AND SHUT UP.

[vodosiosk]

The way it was used against me a few times today was mainly to annoy us and drag out the game. We had a fairly good set of characters (read: A little sucky, no amazing heroes) - the enemy team had a much better loadout (read: Allstar team with Zeus, Luna, etc.). We overcame this obstacle by working as a team, pushing at the right times, defending at the right times, ganking well. We really outplayed them, in my opinion. They had some of the strongest heroes in the game, and we beat them with less powerful ones.

So, as we were raxxing them (2 base towers down - mid, bot), we noted that their tank had pushed top quite far. 2 of us teleported back, to find he'd taken out our base tower. We killed him, while the other 3 on our team retreated as to not get risk being killed, 4v3.
We noted that now top was getting a lot of waves of creeps, as our creeps were held up in our base. We dealt with them (unfortunately we had no great creep clearing heroes), while ensuring that as we did this, no other lanes were pushed.

We got back to their base, all 5 of us. As if the Backdoor had never happened.
But... as we kept raxxing carefully, so we didn't get owned by the other team's better characters, who did we see in our base?
The enemy's tank.

We did the same thing.

Then who was at our base?

The enemy's tank again.

We were forced to push top, so that the creeps didn't flood our base, making more of a problem.
I don't think we were ever in *real* danger, due to the way we handled the situation - like, the towers closest to the Throne were intact at the end - but considering the amount of time it added onto the game, and the possibility that if we didn't play it cautiously enough, the enemy could have team downed us eventually and gotten an upper hand?

I think it's... questionable as a valid strategy.

If i understood you correctly and i think i did, this what you experienced was not backdooring but simply pushing one lane while your team is distracted by the tank's teamm8s on another lane. That is not annoying or gay or backdooring or anything. its just a valid tactic to try to win a match when everything else fails. and yes it makes the game more interesting i guess.

but all in all that is not the matter being dicussed here. backdooring would be if that tank didnt PUSH the top lane to your base while you were busy demolishing theirs. it would be if he just went through the woods ignoring all the creeps (maybe even leaving them at his base) and started destroying your towers and rax ALONE without his creeps who are on a completely other part of the same lane.

and trust me that is gay and very hard to counter. all he needs is a tp in his inventory and he can annoy the **** out of you. as soon is he sees some of you tping to base he can simply hide and wait for you to go away just so he can start backdooring again. and the same if u decide to go to him on foot he can monitor the minimap and when he sees that you are no longer visible on the minimap he waits for ten-fifteen secs to tp to his base and than as soon as you go back to his base to start demolishing he can sneak through the woods and backdoor again (creeps ingored at all times).
i think that backdooring is VERY annoying and should be illegal bannable and prevented somehow.

[Damendar]

Hmm, I don't quite see it that way.
As said, there was a fair chance of things going wrong, and us losing for it. That would have been unfortunate - and, I will say this loosely, unfair. (You can say that we should be able to deal with backdooring, etc. - but... we played so well, it would have been a real dampener to lose... you know? Especially with a tactic such as this - which is a *little* underhanded, at least)

I see what you're saying, but, I can't say that joy was inspired into me while it was happening.
Like, you have to use crazily good techniques to lane against a great Puppet/Hellbringer/Luna/Zeus as a poor melee character - but it's not enjoyable, at least to me :P

And let's not forget how it dragged out the game D:

Well, lets take a closer look here. You admitted you didn't really have the best hero selection. And that you were fighting a team full of Flavor of the Month AllStars.

Ok. Expect to be at a disadvantage here then. I forget what mode you were playing, but if it was SD, then you just got screwed. It happens frequently in that mode. If it was all pick, then...pick a better team composition next time?

Also, different people take joy in certain parts of the game. Personally, I like the huge adrenaline burst of close games, where, but for a single, tiny mistake by one person on one team, the entire balance of the game could have shifted. If you enjoy a different aspect of the game, more power to you, chalk that up to personal preference.

As for 'dragging out the game'...how is it dragging it out if they are using a strategy which calls the outcome into question? Dragging it out is when the score is 60-0, and the team in the lead won't cross the river so they can farm you for kills. If they are creating a push which has the potential to win the game for them, it's not needlessly 'dragging it out' imo.

As for it being 'unfair'. Unfair, to me, implies that someone is using an ability or process that they have access to, but that you do not, OR using an ability/process/strategy that there are NO counters to.

You guys could have double lane pushed them right back. You could (and did) counter the strategy through the almighty imbaness of the 135g homecoming stones. Again, all I'm seeing is them changing tactics, then you guys adapting to the change. Which sounds well played by both teams actually, and (to me), a lot of fun besides.

[Chamie]

Anyone saying that backdooring should be a part of the game doesn't really know the game well enough to understand that it's just not possible.
You've been playing too much public dota with TDA rules where everyone suck too hard to understand that pushing heroes are completly unstopable if backdooring is allowed.

For instance, a rhasta ulti backdooring (imagine how sick it gets when he gets his refresher), broodmother spiderlings (usally a bit easier to counter), any farmed lategame hero with strong DPS, a well farmed krobelus rushing for the towers.

The worst backdooring part of all is probaly when you kill 2 enemy heroes and go straight for base lategame without having a push.
Don't you understand that backdooring is just ridiculous and that there is a reason why it is NEVER EVER allowed in competetive dota?

If you actually make backdooring impossible in HoN, you will have surpassed dota in public gameplay already.

[vodosiosk]

Anyone saying that backdooring should be a part of the game doesn't really know the game well enough to understand that it's just not possible.
You've been playing too much public dota with TDA rules where everyone suck too hard to understand that pushing heroes are completly unstopable if backdooring is allowed.

For instance, a rhasta ulti backdooring (imagine how sick it gets when he gets his refresher), broodmother spiderlings (usally a bit easier to counter), any farmed lategame hero with strong DPS, a well farmed krobelus rushing for the towers.

The worst backdooring part of all is probaly when you kill 2 enemy heroes and go straight for base lategame without having a push.
Don't you understand that backdooring is just ridiculous and that there is a reason why it is NEVER EVER allowed in competetive dota?

If you actually make backdooring impossible in HoN, you will have surpassed dota in public gameplay already.

he said it all. and with alot less words and complication than i did.

[Orcheon]

Backdooring should be fine as long as:
-No teleportation is used, unless you're porting to creeps relatively near their base(in which case this isn't backdooring anyway)
-No invisibility is used.

[Elman1]

We were playing with a nice team but no tanks, and we had lost all the towers outside our base while the enemy team had only lost 1 per lane. Our mid tower was almost down and everything, but we managed to push back, and after a while we managed to fight back and we were attacking their towers, despite losing our top and mid towers (Not the barracks though).

70 minutes into a really fun and balanced match, the enemy's mid and bot barracks were down and their top one had no tower. Their base was literally flooded with creeps, we were owning them and the game was simply finished.

But then I decided to kill the top barracks while the top creep wave was still halfway through the top path, to get it over with, god forbid. And some guy starts crying because we won in an unfair way and blablablah, instead of saying gg after that great game, like everybody else.

Honestly, I don't know if it counts as backdooring as long as there aren't creeps from the same lane. And I don't give a damn. If it's so unfair make the stupid barracks invulnerable when creeps aren't nearby, I'm all for that. But for now, just stfu and play.

[lWinterbornl]

Anyone saying that backdooring should be a part of the game doesn't really know the game well enough to understand that it's just not possible.
You've been playing too much public dota with TDA rules where everyone suck too hard to understand that pushing heroes are completly unstopable if backdooring is allowed.

For instance, a rhasta ulti backdooring (imagine how sick it gets when he gets his refresher), broodmother spiderlings (usally a bit easier to counter), any farmed lategame hero with strong DPS, a well farmed krobelus rushing for the towers.

The worst backdooring part of all is probaly when you kill 2 enemy heroes and go straight for base lategame without having a push.
Don't you understand that backdooring is just ridiculous and that there is a reason why it is NEVER EVER allowed in competetive dota?

If you actually make backdooring impossible in HoN, you will have surpassed dota in public gameplay already.

Perfectly stated.

[Dustbin]

Forbiding backdooring was done to avoid carries or tanks in Mid/end game to ninja/sucide kill towers and racks, without the opposing team noticing or being able to do something.



If their map awareness is that bad they don't really have a place to complain about backdooring... and you can do something if you carry a teleport, or hey maybe they should notice one of the enemies isn't defending when they're pushing? and take an educated guess that maybe he's going to counterpush?


If a guy is soloing your towers before anyone on your team can port back in a few seconds to stop him you've either already lost by letting him farm enough to take a tower down in ~5secs, or someone on your team should be able to do the same to them at that point in the game which hardly makes it unfair.

One "backdooring"-esque thing I do think is a little cheap though is how Nymph can teleport literally outside either sides base with 2 people, from anywhere on the map.

[darkangelx]

We were playing with a nice team but no tanks, and we had lost all the towers outside our base while the enemy team had only lost 1 per lane. Our mid tower was almost down and everything, but we managed to push back, and after a while we managed to fight back and we were attacking their towers, despite losing our top and mid towers (Not the barracks though).

70 minutes into a really fun and balanced match, the enemy's mid and bot barracks were down and their top one had no tower. Their base was literally flooded with creeps, we were owning them and the game was simply finished.

But then I decided to kill the top barracks while the top creep wave was still halfway through the top path, to get it over with, god forbid. And some guy starts crying because we won in an unfair way and blablablah, instead of saying gg after that great game, like everybody else.

Honestly, I don't know if it counts as backdooring as long as there aren't creeps from the same lane. And I don't give a damn. If it's so unfair make the stupid barracks invulnerable when creeps aren't nearby, I'm all for that. But for now, just stfu and play.

I do not believe this is backdooring, but personally I would push the lane first, just so people dont ***** about it. I do however think the rax should be invulnerable if the tower before it has not been destroyed.

If the tower before THAT tower is still up, then the tower is invulnerable, just like dota. This would prevent any rush the rax strat and bring it in line with dota. At least make them kill the towers in front before attacking the base.

[skrotnizze]

Backdooring to me is entering the enemy base without your own creeps having reached said base.

If you enter with them, they die, of course one could stay there and do whatever one wants to do, it being rax/tower on another lane or not.

[Extecute]

No. Backdooring is fair, it's counterable with tping and defending. It's not immature to backdoor, it's smart.

What he said.

[Daroxlolz]

If their map awareness is that bad they don't really have a place to complain about backdooring... and you can do something if you carry a teleport, or hey maybe they should notice one of the enemies isn't defending when they're pushing? and take an educated guess that maybe he's going to counterpush?

Counterpushing is, as its name says, pushing. And pushing means with creeps.
Backdooring, on the other hand, doesn't mean pushing, it means backdooring, ie without creeps.
And when a stealth hero is backdooring, you can "educated guess" all you want, but you won't notice untill he's on your tower, then you can TP, and he can retreat and/or switch tower, etc..



If a guy is soloing your towers before anyone on your team can port back in a few seconds to stop him you've either already lost by letting him farm enough to take a tower down in ~5secs, or someone on your team should be able to do the same to them at that point in the game which hardly makes it unfair. Let's take the rasta example stated above. Not a stealth hero so he can't "easily" escape.
So Rasta backdoors with refreshing orb, which he will get at some point. He puts down 2 sets of wards, the tower hitting him, and you TP to stop him. It takes you 5 seconds to get to the tower, cause your very well aware of the map while pushing with you team, and you instantly TP, you get shackled for 4 seconds, then you get Hexed for another 4 or 5, while Rasta just retreats/TP back to base. Not only the tower is down (at least 15 seconds of Rasta double wards set), but you now have a cooldown on your TP, assuming you had 2 on you (but you're so very pro that you sure had 2), and your team has to either wait for you to travel the whole map walking, or push a base with towers being 4v5.
Oh, yeah, 2 people could TP to kill Rasta, but hey, still, pushing a base with 3v4, and losing a tower (cause you can't kill wards, avoid Rasta disables and kill him at the same time) sucks too.

And your argument, "it's fair cause you can do it too", dude... seriously?
Let's pick heroes for their "destroying towers abilities" now!
So instead of ganking, and fighting with each other, we can just go 5 men wreck a tower, TP, rinse and repeat. The game would be soooooo much more interesting this way.




One "backdooring"-esque thing I do think is a little cheap though is how Nymph can teleport literally outside either sides base with 2 people, from anywhere on the map.That is very true

[Cod]

first off i feel "backdooring" should remain completely legal. the addition of the town defense scroll would be great to add some time to port back and save what is being backdoored.

i wish i could post some pics to help me explain this.. but those who are opposed to BD remind me of the Redcoats. warfare where both sides walk in straight rows and columns up to the other army then they trade shots back and forth.

<insert pic of an old painting of redcoats lined up for battle>


IMO the real better smart players see BD as legit. it is defendable. it is stopable. if you send all 5 heroes pushing 1-2 lanes into the enemy town you leave yourself open to be BD.

BD is a counter to the other side team pushing. it will either allow you to knock out some towers or rax or at the very least draw heroes away from the push on your town. legit.

back to the real world war comparison. those who understand why BD is a legit strat are like the revolutionarys. they saw the redcoats pushing in their lanes and decided to make hit-and-run strikes on them.

if you dont like being the victim of BD then dont let it happen. kill heroes, get BoT, carry scrolls, wait till you win a team fight before pushing into their town. saying that scout is OP at BD just makes you sound bad. your team should already have wards/gem to counter him.

one last comment. i always roffle when people who attempt to BD and fail at it. for whatever reason.

[RadicalRhyme]

They did it in Ender's Game. Pisses people off because they feel that something is off limits and then someone does it anyway.

I say either leave it as it is and combat the social stigma against it, or make it impossible with the code.

Either it's OK and people should do it if the opportunity is there, or it's impossible and rendered a non-issue. As it is, I say do it if it makes you feel good. Personally I think it just isn't fun to actually DO, but I don't mind if a teammate does it.

In DotA it was only really disallowed in Leagues, and in Pubs there was no higher authority that could do anything about it-

4.1 Backdooring is forbidden. This means you are not allowed to attack towers or other buildings without creep support (please read rule 4.2 CAREFULLY). If a player does backdoor you may NOT -10 him. You should write a support and upload a replay and a screen shot of the backdoor and let the admins punish him.

4.2a "Creep support" means that the attacking creeps are within the 700 radius range of the tower.You do not have to cancel your attack if all creeps are killed.
4.2b Player controlled creeps are not counted as creep support.
4.2c You are allowed to attack any building in enemy base if there were friendly creeps in the base when you entered. You do not have to leave/stop attacking if all creeps are dead. E.g. - creeps enter the top entrance of base and start attacking the tower/barracks. You can enter the base by any entrance and attack any base buildings as long as you entered while creeps were in the base. You may stay as long as you want.
4.2d Denyable towers can be attacked at any time. A denyable tower is a tower with HP equal to or less than 10% of its maximum.

[Level5Pidgey]

If i understood you correctly and i think i did, this what you experienced was not backdooring but simply pushing one lane while your team is distracted by the tank's teamm8s on another lane. That is not annoying or gay or backdooring or anything. its just a valid tactic to try to win a match when everything else fails. and yes it makes the game more interesting i guess.

but all in all that is not the matter being dicussed here. backdooring would be if that tank didnt PUSH the top lane to your base while you were busy demolishing theirs. it would be if he just went through the woods ignoring all the creeps (maybe even leaving them at his base) and started destroying your towers and rax ALONE without his creeps who are on a completely other part of the same lane.

That's what he did.
The reason why we had to clear creeps was because our creeps for that lane were in spawn trying to kill him. They didn't enter the lane.


Well, lets take a closer look here. You admitted you didn't really have the best hero selection. And that you were fighting a team full of Flavor of the Month AllStars.

Ok. Expect to be at a disadvantage here then. I forget what mode you were playing, but if it was SD, then you just got screwed. It happens frequently in that mode. If it was all pick, then...pick a better team composition next time?


Oh, so the fact that we outplayed them doesn't mean anything? They should win because they picked the better heroes before we could?
And I'm sure that even if we did have some better heroes, the same kind of thing could have applied, and still annoyed us.


Also, different people take joy in certain parts of the game. Personally, I like the huge adrenaline burst of close games, where, but for a single, tiny mistake by one person on one team, the entire balance of the game could have shifted. If you enjoy a different aspect of the game, more power to you, chalk that up to personal preference.
And that's why I made it clear that my reflections on the backdooring was just my personal opinion. :)


As for 'dragging out the game'...how is it dragging it out if they are using a strategy which calls the outcome into question? Dragging it out is when the score is 60-0, and the team in the lead won't cross the river so they can farm you for kills. If they are creating a push which has the potential to win the game for them, it's not needlessly 'dragging it out' imo.
Good point, actually. It still was fairly annoying though, we were so close to winning, and then we'd have to cancel our momentum, etc. So yeah, in my opinion, the way that it lengthened the game was annoying.


As for it being 'unfair'. Unfair, to me, implies that someone is using an ability or process that they have access to, but that you do not, OR using an ability/process/strategy that there are NO counters to.
As I said, I use the term 'unfair' loosely. I didn't mean it in the way that you defined it.


You guys could have double lane pushed them right back. You could (and did) counter the strategy through the almighty imbaness of the 135g homecoming stones. Again, all I'm seeing is them changing tactics, then you guys adapting to the change. Which sounds well played by both teams actually, and (to me), a lot of fun besides.
Yeah - as I said, in my opinion, it wasn't a decent thing to do.
Just my opinion, and, I'm sure, many others'.

[lWinterbornl]

Then it goes by game. State the fact that if some BD's while in the hosts game, and they dont like it, then the host will boot. It's a player preference to allow/disallow. If I host a game, and you BD, whether your on my team or not, I'll warn you once, then remove you. I do it in DOTA, and this is the same way.

[v3xMissile]

If someone really does backdoor than why are you just standing there? KILL HIM!!!

[Vermifax]

That's what he did.
The reason why we had to clear creeps was because our creeps for that lane were in spawn trying to kill him. They didn't enter the lane.




They were there attacking him because in your previous post you said he pushed top to your base. The enemy pushing a lane your team is not in is not and has never been backdooring.

[frenzynator]

Backdooring = Attacking and destroying towers when none of your team's creeps are present.

Therefore, as the above poster said, the guy pushing into your base was not backdooring, but in fact good strategy to divert attention and stop your push at the base.

[Volshok]

We had a BD end one a great game last night, was rather annoying. A hosting option would be ideal for this.

[china]

An easy fix would be to make barracks in a lane unattackable unless the lane's correlated creep wave was destroyed as well.

(I.E. Barracks are invulnerable until every creep in the lane is killed, so heroes cannot simply bypass the creeps that serve as early markers to pushes)

[Whitebushid1]

Anyone saying that backdooring should be a part of the game doesn't really know the game well enough to understand that it's just not possible.
You've been playing too much public dota with TDA rules where everyone suck too hard to understand that pushing heroes are completly unstopable if backdooring is allowed.

For instance, a rhasta ulti backdooring (imagine how sick it gets when he gets his refresher), broodmother spiderlings (usally a bit easier to counter), any farmed lategame hero with strong DPS, a well farmed krobelus rushing for the towers.

The worst backdooring part of all is probaly when you kill 2 enemy heroes and go straight for base lategame without having a push.
Don't you understand that backdooring is just ridiculous and that there is a reason why it is NEVER EVER allowed in competetive dota?

If you actually make backdooring impossible in HoN, you will have surpassed dota in public gameplay already.

Glyph of fort and more than one hero going back, not to mention being a rhasta down is pretty significant in team battles while being pushed.

[Dustbin]

An easy fix would be to make barracks in a lane unattackable unless the lane's correlated creep wave was destroyed as well.

(I.E. Barracks are invulnerable until every creep in the lane is killed, so heroes cannot simply bypass the creeps that serve as early markers to pushes)

Or you could just not lose the tower in front of your barracks.:rolleyes:

[crawd]

ithink pass 60min or so bd should be fully allowed but earlier it should have some restriction

[Rojer]

all I want is a sound file that says your base is under attack... half the time if we are all pushing I dont even notice someone backdooring even with a scroll that I could have defended. so now I have to pay extra attention to it

[Slayn]

i think there should be a mode or so to turn anti-BD on/off

[H3rbal1sT]

hm this problem was solved in dota like if you attack buildings (only works on towers though) they regenerate all the dmg taken if you attack it without creeps being near so it's a perfect defence from backdooring would be nice implanting that in HON too.. and of course we need ghyliph of protection it's a must for this kind of game i think

[Slayn]

hm this problem was solved in dota like if you attack buildings (only works on towers though) they regenerate all the dmg taken if you attack it without creeps being near so it's a perfect defence from backdooring would be nice implanting that in HON too.. and of course we need ghyliph of protection it's a must for this kind of game i think

yepp

[Tenet]

It's called CREEP SKIPPING and not backdoor.

Backdoor = entering the base with Furion's teleport and destroying objectives using the Summons. It was considered game-breaking because it was
a) INSTANT (Furion could instantly teleport from his base to the enemy base in one 2 second spell cast)
b) REQUIRED BASE CAMPING TO COUNTER

If you're entering the 3 front "doors" of the base using normal non-glitch means without creeps it's called a Creep-Skip and not a BD.

The logic for the restrictions on Furion's Backdoor teleport, and other heroes in DotA is similar to the Offside-Pass logic in Soccer(Football) - promoting offense and map control over defensive camping.

The only hero I can think of that can do something similar is Nymphora - though much less capable solo. If this ever becomes a problem S2 can restrict the area she can target with her ult (isn't that already in? not sure). There should also be DotA-like "armor and regeneration" of any damage caused without creep support, so that a thwarted attempt at Creep-Skipping won't have cumulative effect. With sufficient damage you could still successfully Creep-Skip as a split-combat tactic.

Creep-Skipping is much easier to counter - since the counters are part of the same basic tactics that win games - MAP CONTROL.
There is nothing "unfair" in playing to win and targeting objectives exposed by the enemy's weak map control.

[Slayn]

It's called CREEP SKIPPING and not backdoor.

Backdoor = entering the base with Furion's teleport and destroying objectives using the Summons. It was considered game-breaking because it was
a) INSTANT (Furion could instantly teleport from his base to the enemy base in one 2 second spell cast)
b) REQUIRED BASE CAMPING TO COUNTER

The logic for the restrictions on Furion's BACK-door teleport, and similar heroes in DotA is similar to the Offside-Pass logic in Soccer(Football) - promoting offence and map control over defensive camping.

The only hero I can think of that can do something similar is Nymphora - though much less capable solo. If this ever becomes a problem S2 can restrict the area she can target with her ult (isn't that already in? not sure).

Creep-Skipping is much easier to counter - since the counters are part of the same basic tactics that win games - MAP CONTROL.
There is nothing "unfair" in playing to win and targeting objectives exposed by the enemy's weak map control.






it was not just furion
you could easily sneak through the forest with every hero and attack the buildings without creeps
that is BD

[xahxah]

Glyph of fort and more than one hero going back, not to mention being a rhasta down is pretty significant in team battles while being pushed.


Glyph of Fort lasts only a few seconds, and is only useful if you have even numbers of teammates. If you end up killing 1 or 2 heroes and bdoor is allowed at high level play, you would see stupid crap like mass disables/cyclones + tower/building killing heroes.



It's not allowed in many leagues/tournaments because it simply makes the game boring.

[tayuku]

I remember playing an ih DotA game where the opposition had a team full of pushers and it was late-game where they had taken two of Raxes (As opposed to their 1 rax down and rax towers down) and hitting our throne. Our throne was less than half health. We managed to kill nearly all of them and did a 3 lane push because our carry was actually buff enough now. We got to their base and and destroyed 1 more rax only to see that they sent two invisible (Lothar'd) dpsers into our base. We popped the glyph and tped back, but they continued attacking and the throne died.

I would have to say that in a couple situations, it is unfair. Mainly because it places too much power in the pushers. Especially in modes like -rd where the hero pool is never consistent. A team could get many pushers to enable them to be able to Backdoor EARLIER than the other team. By having the towers down and etc, Raxes are much much easily Backdoored than having the rax tower there.

Also, in DotA, the best Backdooring hero by far is Naga Siren due to its Song of Siren. When the other team teleports, you use this song granting your precious seconds to Backdoor. Is this really fair? You cannot even defend against this. It is a skill that is uncounterable in a backdooring sense.

All I am saying is that there are some situations where backdooring is imbalanced due to the modes -sd and -rd which never have the same hero combinations every time.

However, in AP, I believe it is completely acceptable because if they choose a pushing strat, you can counter it with your own picks.

[Fest1]

People just didn't play DotA and mostly don't even know what backdooring is. And even though there are no rules in HoN to forbid backdooring, it's still really annoying :/

And extremely counterable. Just because scout is really annoying doesn't mean he shouldn't be played. Same rules applied to backdooring.

Just because it's a dota copy doesn't mean the same rules apply.

/thread

[Darklyte1]

Backdooring has been part of the rules since RoC dota. TFT and Ice frog stopped it in TFT dota. we manged for years to counter it and play with it and it is still not a rule in the original RoC Dota.

Learn new strats.

[Sylvantes]

I'm sorry here, but...that story sounds to me like backdooring made the game BETTER?

They started using a non-standard tactic on you guys, who then had to adapt in a creative way to both maintain your traditional advantage and counter the backdoor tactic as well.

Sounds like their tank made a smart decision. He, by himself, was able to prevent you guys from 5 manning the final push. If you hadn't been on top of his behavior, he may have turned the game around. But you were, so you just had to change your own tactics, and keep up the overall pressure.

I dunno, as I said earlier, that sounds like it ADDED to the fun of this game, if anything.

Explain to me how a cheap tactic makes a game fun? If anything it was annoying, it delayed the inevitable. No one enjoys that.

[daretoslack]

Backdooring has a mechanism to prevent it in the current DotA release for a reason. It was never fair, it was never balanced, and it was always banned in both competitive and friendly play. Pretty much any slightly farmed carry can drop a tower and two raxes before the enemy team can respond. This is not fun, this is not strategic, and it's not okay. Glyphing helped the problem a bit, but the latest "healing towers without creeps nearby" mechanic has pretty much fixed it. That should be incorporated into HoN asap, imo. Backdooring is an unfriendly "tactic" that shouldn't be taking place anyway, so removing it shouldn't have any effect on the game at all.

(And to whoever had the story about finishing the final tower and rax after having the two other lanes down, that's not backdooring. You have a straight shot at that tower/raxes with creep support, and it's totally acceptable and fair to finish up a game that way.)

[Slayn]

everyone is arguing about BDing
there are good pros and cons
just make a mode so the host can decide : BD allowed/BD not allowed
and everyone is satisfied ^^

agree or not?!

[Stoli]

The issue of backdooring isn't a discussion of "fairness" or "dirty" tactics.

Backdooring is simply an imbalanced strategy. If there was an item in DotA that cost 100g and gave 9000 dmg, but the rest of the game was the same, it would seem perfectly legit to ban that item in the game name, and play on as normal. It might not always happen in pubs, but at least the leagues should have made rules regarding it.

I actually don't mind if backdooring becomes a standard tactic, but I would hope there would be some balance changes to compensate for the new strategy drastically buffing certain heroes.

[Gornish1]

First off in HoN just as in pub DotA a lot of people seem to get confused on what 'Back Dooring' is. Already in this thread you can see that people don't seem to understand the concept.

So here we go to clarify.

Back Door = A Hero/Heroes bypassing structures to attack structures further back in an enemy base.

Examples:

-A hero teleports into the back of the enemy base while all raxes are up and starts attacking the throne.

- A hero skips over the lane towers and attacks the enemy base directly, ignoring the lane towers in that lane.

This was fixed in DotA by the simple immunity mechanic put in place by tower lane order. I have never tested this in HoN so I don't know if that mechanic exists or not.

Creep Skipping = Bypassing a wave or waves of enemy creeps to attack an enemy structure in normal order.

Examples:

- A hero bypasses a wave of enemy creeps and attacks a lane tower without any creep support.

- A hero attacks an enemies base while the enemy creep wave from that lane is pushing into his base.

The problem is people confuse this all the time. If a game is running 70+ minutes than there is already a problem because you should have won the game in far less time.

If an enemy team has pushed into your base in one then then jumps to attack Raxs in a different lane (with lane towers in that lane down) it is NOT a backdoor.

Again, DotA pretty much eliminated back dooring by creation of the building immunity mechanic.

I don't see why this same thing couldn't be done in HoN if it's not already implemented.

[daretoslack]

The issue of backdooring isn't a discussion of "fairness" or "dirty" tactics.

Backdooring is simply an imbalanced strategy. If there was an item in DotA that cost 100g and gave 9000 dmg, but the rest of the game was the same, it would seem perfectly legit to ban that item in the game name, and play on as normal. It might not always happen in pubs, but at least the leagues should have made rules regarding it.

I actually don't mind if backdooring becomes a standard tactic, but I would hope there would be some balance changes to compensate for the new strategy drastically buffing certain heroes.
Agreed. Allowing it makes most any carry hero an instant win button roughly 35-40 minutes into a game. A well rounded team shouldn't be required to win fast or face a guaranteed game over against a team full of AGI heroes. It's a matter of game balance, and before Icefrog physically fixed it, it was considered off limits and unfun even in non-competitive pub play.

[daretoslack]

First off in HoN just as in pub DotA a lot of people seem to get confused on what 'Back Dooring' is. Already in this thread you can see that people don't seem to understand the concept.

So here we go to clarify.

Back Door = A Hero/Heroes bypassing structures to attack structures further back in an enemy base.

Examples:

-A hero teleports into the back of the enemy base while all raxes are up and starts attacking the throne.

- A hero skips over the lane towers and attacks the enemy base directly, ignoring the lane towers in that lane.

This was fixed in DotA by the simple immunity mechanic put in place by tower lane order. I have never tested this in HoN so I don't know if that mechanic exists or not.

Creep Skipping = Bypassing a wave or waves of enemy creeps to attack an enemy structure in normal order.

Examples:

- A hero bypasses a wave of enemy creeps and attacks a lane tower without any creep support.

- A hero attacks an enemies base while the enemy creep wave from that lane is pushing into his base.

The problem is people confuse this all the time. If a game is running 70+ minutes than there is already a problem because you should have won the game in far less time.

If an enemy team has pushed into your base in one then then jumps to attack Raxs in a different lane (with lane towers in that lane down) it is NOT a backdoor.

Again, DotA pretty much eliminated back dooring by creation of the building immunity mechanic.

I don't see why this same thing couldn't be done in HoN if it's not already implemented.
In the three years I've played, I've never once seen this particular definition anywhere. Maybe this is was the standard definition before the tower order immunity was implemented, but that was well before my time. Nowadays, backdooring has meant exactly what's being discussed here. (See Icefrog referring to it as such when implementing the newish "tower healing when no creeps nearby" mechanic.)

[Annearekey]

The immunity mechanic is implemented. As well Backdooring is allowed contrary to popular belief. Though unsportsman in some cases. It is balanced and a part of the game. Ways to counter:
Observer wards.
Teleport scrolls
Occupy Lanes

[Gornish1]

In the three years I've played, I've never once seen this particular definition anywhere. Maybe this is was the standard definition before the tower order immunity was implemented, but that was well before my time. Nowadays, backdooring has meant exactly what's being discussed here. (See Icefrog referring to it as such when implementing the newish "tower healing when no creeps nearby" mechanic.)

Those have always been the definitions in both RoC and Allstars before the building immunities were put in.

The biggest problem is people calling back door when it's not even happening...

The misconception of what it is, is as big of a problem as the fact people can't seem to react to deal with it.

[daretoslack]

Those have always been the definitions in both RoC and Allstars before the building immunities were put in.

But not since.

[FiNGERS]

1. If you weren't 'supposed' to backdoor, you simply would be unable to attack buildings if there were no creeps present.

2. Glyph of Fortification and the 40hp/s regen on buildings without creeps present is coming, no word as to when.

[brn4meplz]

I still don't see the Issue, One of the best things a Magebane can do for his team late game is be jumping all over the place hitting anything he wants to. By finding a way to disallow this you cutting him off unfairly. As for other heroes, They shouldn't present a threat to you anymore then any other single hero should. you have some people teleport back, disable the guy and smash his face in.

I'm still only seeing the people who can't adapt complain about this. Your asking for a mechanic that covers your deficiencies as a team. It's not HoN(Handicap of Newerth), So man-up let your balls drop and work through the problem

[Whitebushid1]

First off in HoN just as in pub DotA a lot of people seem to get confused on what 'Back Dooring' is. Already in this thread you can see that people don't seem to understand the concept.

So here we go to clarify.

Back Door = A Hero/Heroes bypassing structures to attack structures further back in an enemy base.

Examples:

-A hero teleports into the back of the enemy base while all raxes are up and starts attacking the throne.

- A hero skips over the lane towers and attacks the enemy base directly, ignoring the lane towers in that lane.

This was fixed in DotA by the simple immunity mechanic put in place by tower lane order. I have never tested this in HoN so I don't know if that mechanic exists or not.

Creep Skipping = Bypassing a wave or waves of enemy creeps to attack an enemy structure in normal order.

Examples:

- A hero bypasses a wave of enemy creeps and attacks a lane tower without any creep support.

- A hero attacks an enemies base while the enemy creep wave from that lane is pushing into his base.

The problem is people confuse this all the time. If a game is running 70+ minutes than there is already a problem because you should have won the game in far less time.

If an enemy team has pushed into your base in one then then jumps to attack Raxs in a different lane (with lane towers in that lane down) it is NOT a backdoor.

Again, DotA pretty much eliminated back dooring by creation of the building immunity mechanic.

I don't see why this same thing couldn't be done in HoN if it's not already implemented.

It is, but I don't know anyone beyond the like two people in this thread that call what everyone else calls BD creep skipping. Just as dota evolved to counter old backdooring, the definition of backdooring evolved.

[daretoslack]

I still don't see the Issue, One of the best things a Magebane can do for his team late game is be jumping all over the place hitting anything he wants to. By finding a way to disallow this you cutting him off unfairly. As for other heroes, They shouldn't present a threat to you anymore then any other single hero should. you have some people teleport back, disable the guy and smash his face in.

I'm still only seeing the people who can't adapt complain about this. Your asking for a mechanic that covers your deficiencies as a team. It's not HoN(Handicap of Newerth), So man-up let your balls drop and work through the problem
This post is representative of you simply not playing the game enough. A good carry can drop a tower and rax combo in maybe 20 seconds flat, well before the opposing team can react, even if they notice it immediately, no matter the outcome of the rest of the game. Allowing backdooring is akin to allowing a 40 minute "instant win" button to any team with a carry who feels like playing like a dick. Backdooring has been fixed in DotA for a reason, and until then it was unofficially or officially banned as a tactic in both pub and competitive play. I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. The sooner they introduce Glyphing/"Tower healing" the better.

There is a difference between putting the pressure on through lane pushing and backdooring. The difference is that one is counter-able/a legit strategy. The other is an instant win button 40 or so minutes in.

[daretoslack]

1. If you weren't 'supposed' to backdoor, you simply would be unable to attack buildings if there were no creeps present.
You were NEVER supposed to, and recent DotA updates did roughly what you outlined above to ensure that "WELL TECHNICALLY I CAN" players like yourself were unable to. In competitive play, it was outright banned, and in pub play it was considered cheating and unfair.

[Keiishi]

ok i havent read everything in this topic cuz well, it was too long, but in case this has not been said so far, sending someone to "backdoor" will take one of your teamates away from base at the time you need to defends.

i can see the 5 man team come into a base as the defending team only has 4 with one tryin to "backdoor" then the attacking team rape the **** out of the 4 players, they have 2/3 tp back to rape the "backdoorer" as the rest keep pushing. Said push end up in rax being down and maybe even in the game ending.

[daretoslack]

ok i havent read everything in this topic cuz well, it was too long, but in case this has not been said so far, sending someone to "backdoor" will take one of your teamates away from base at the time you need to defends.

i can see the 5 man team come into a base as the defending team only has 4 with one tryin to "backdoor" then the attacking team rape the **** out of the 4 players, they have 2/3 tp back to rape the "backdoorer" as the rest keep pushing. Said push end up in rax being down and maybe even in the game ending.
Sorry, but no. There are plenty of heroes who can rape an undefended tower/rax combo while a 4/5 team fight that may or may not end with a 'rax kill takes place. Seriously, this opinion just doesn't come out of the mouth of anyone who's played much of this game or its counterpart. Backdooring has ALWAYS been officially or unofficially banned and treated as cheating and unsportsmanlike. DotA flat out removed it within the last few map releases. HoN likely will, and should, follow suit.

[jorge69696]

This happened to me once in dota.. maybe you don't care because it's not hon.. but.. We were pushing mid destroying everything.. then a big fight happened and me and my allies died.. 3 of them were defending against mega creeps and an opposite team traxex started destroying our main.. she destroyed each tower like in 5 sec.. we lost.. how are we supposed to tp back to base if we are dead? you don't always have a tp with you or enough gold to respawn and counter the backdoor.

[wondR]

if anyone is backdooring use the votekick system and pwn their asses.

Backdooring is NOT ok, the only time when its ok to attack a tower is when creeps are within towerrange, and possibly if the tower is denyable.

[Vermifax]

Backdooring has ALWAYS been officially or unofficially banned and treated as cheating and unsportsmanlike.

Not it hasn't 'always' and links have already been posted in this thread.

Most of what you're calling backdooring isn't even backdooring as far as the official leagues are concerned.

[daretoslack]

Not it hasn't 'always' and links have already been posted in this thread.

Most of what you're calling backdooring isn't even backdooring as far as the official leagues are concerned.
From Dota-League (http://www.dota-league.com/?section=rules&page=2): "Backdooring is forbidden. This means you are not allowed to attack towers or other buildings without creep support (please read rule 4.2 below CAREFULLY). If a player does backdoor you may NOT -10 him. You should write a support and upload a replay and a screen shot of the backdoor and let the admins punish him."

From Dota-Central League (http://forums.dota-central.net/index.php?showtopic=8386) Season 3: "All towers outside of the bases are backdoorable. Any buildings inside the bases require one of your allied creeps to have entered the base before you attack it. (This does not include controllable creeps from heroes like Chen). Backdooring can result in warns/timeban up to game result changing."

From CEVO Season 2 (http://www.cevo.com/index.php?page=div&id=264&func=rules#section_18.00): "Backdooring (Creep Skipping)- Backdooring for the 2 outer towers of each lane is allowed. For base towers, raxes, and the Throne/World Tree, you may not attack any building until creeps are present. Creeps are considered present once they are on top of the hill leading to the base at one of the three entrances. Heroes must enter through the same entrance that creeps did. All buildings are open to attack once this has happened. When the creeps die, heroes may remain in the base to attack. Once the heroes have left and there are no more creeps in the base, creeps must re-enter the base before heroes are allowed to attack again. Staying invisible in the base for more than 10 seconds after creeps and other visible heroes have left will be considered as an empty base and you may not attack until creeps enter the base again."

From DXD League (http://www.dxd-league.com/index.php?topic=519.0): "Backdooring: You MAY NOT attack any building within the enemy base without creep support. You MAY attack any building in the base, but you must enter the base through the same lane your creep support is in. If no creeps are already in the enemy base, you may push with a creep wave and attack buildings so long as you are within 700 range of your team's creeps when you begin to attack buildings or enter the base. If your creep support dies after you have pushed into the base, you may continue to attack buildings until you leave the base, but if you use any spell that makes you invisible such as Wind Walk, Lothar's Edge, or Permanent Invisibility you must attack a building within 10 seconds of your creep support dying or it is considered backdoor."

From the Farm4Fame Tournament (http://www.dota-league.com/farm4fame/?section=rules) (Currently discussed on the front page of DotA-Allstars.com, and host to some of the highest ranked teams on earth): "Players are not allowed to attack towers or other buildings inside the enemy base (this excludes the first and second tower on each lane) without creep support. You are allowed to attack any building in enemy base if there are already creeps inside the base attacking it. You don`t have to cancel your attack if all creeps are dead. Towers that are denyable are allowed to be attacked without creep support."

Backdooring in the now defunct TDA has gone back and forth between legal, illegal, and legal after only a specific time period, most recently being perfectly legal. I'd check the current CAL rules, but their owner appears to have given his community the finger and removed their website, and archive.org is throwing a hissy fit right now. But based on memory, backdooring was most recently legal, although it also went through cycles of various banning. And it's anecdotal, but in roughly 3 years, I have never once played a pub game in which backdooring was considered acceptable. And while I can't look at all of them, I cannot find a single currently active DotA league or large scale tournament using the definition of backdoor that people in this thread keep trying to claim is correct. Plenty of other people on message boards making similar claims, but not a single reputable source.

Seriously, anybody who claims another definition or who claims that it's largely considered an acceptable strategy simply hasn't played enough of the game or played the game recently enough. Most every single high level competitive league or tournament removes it as a rule, it is considered broken and unfun in pub games, and Icefrog has flat out removed it in the latest versions of his map.

My opinion (I have put this rule in some DotA communities) :

Backdooring is NOT allowed !

Backdooring: You are not allowed to attack any tower on the map without creepsupport.

You have to enter the base with creeps but they dont have to be in the same line as you. As soon as creeps enters the base, the complete base is allowed to be destroyed.

As long as there were creeps in base when you entered, you are allowed to keep attacking even if they die. If you leave the base at this moment you need to have new creeps in the next attack.

If a tower is denyable (below 10% HP) and is not a base tower, backdooring rules do not apply.

DEFINITIONS:
Creeps "Enter the base" when they are upslope on their way into the base.
Creepsupport : The creeps are within 600 Range.

[pedobearpig]

From Dota-League (http://www.dota-league.com/?section=rules&page=2): "Backdooring is forbidden. This means you are not allowed to attack towers or other buildings without creep support (please read rule 4.2 below CAREFULLY). If a player does backdoor you may NOT -10 him. You should write a support and upload a replay and a screen shot of the backdoor and let the admins punish him."

From Dota-Central League (http://forums.dota-central.net/index.php?showtopic=8386) Season 3: "All towers outside of the bases are backdoorable. Any buildings inside the bases require one of your allied creeps to have entered the base before you attack it. (This does not include controllable creeps from heroes like Chen). Backdooring can result in warns/timeban up to game result changing."

From CEVO Season 2 (http://www.cevo.com/index.php?page=div&id=264&func=rules#section_18.00): "Backdooring (Creep Skipping)- Backdooring for the 2 outer towers of each lane is allowed. For base towers, raxes, and the Throne/World Tree, you may not attack any building until creeps are present. Creeps are considered present once they are on top of the hill leading to the base at one of the three entrances. Heroes must enter through the same entrance that creeps did. All buildings are open to attack once this has happened. When the creeps die, heroes may remain in the base to attack. Once the heroes have left and there are no more creeps in the base, creeps must re-enter the base before heroes are allowed to attack again. Staying invisible in the base for more than 10 seconds after creeps and other visible heroes have left will be considered as an empty base and you may not attack until creeps enter the base again."

From DXD League (http://www.dxd-league.com/index.php?topic=519.0): "Backdooring: You MAY NOT attack any building within the enemy base without creep support. You MAY attack any building in the base, but you must enter the base through the same lane your creep support is in. If no creeps are already in the enemy base, you may push with a creep wave and attack buildings so long as you are within 700 range of your team's creeps when you begin to attack buildings or enter the base. If your creep support dies after you have pushed into the base, you may continue to attack buildings until you leave the base, but if you use any spell that makes you invisible such as Wind Walk, Lothar's Edge, or Permanent Invisibility you must attack a building within 10 seconds of your creep support dying or it is considered backdoor."

From the Farm4Fame Tournament (http://www.dota-league.com/farm4fame/?section=rules) (Currently discussed on the front page of DotA-Allstars.com, and host to some of the highest ranked teams on earth): "Players are not allowed to attack towers or other buildings inside the enemy base (this excludes the first and second tower on each lane) without creep support. You are allowed to attack any building in enemy base if there are already creeps inside the base attacking it. You don`t have to cancel your attack if all creeps are dead. Towers that are denyable are allowed to be attacked without creep support."

Backdooring in the now defunct TDA has gone back and forth between legal, illegal, and legal after only a specific time period, most recently being perfectly legal. I'd check the current CAL rules, but their owner appears to have given his community the finger and removed their website, and archive.org is throwing a hissy fit right now. But based on memory, backdooring was most recently legal, although it also went through cycles of various banning. And it's anecdotal, but in roughly 3 years, I have never once played a pub game in which backdooring was considered acceptable. And while I can't look at all of them, I cannot find a single currently active DotA league or large scale tournament using the definition of backdoor that people in this thread keep trying to claim is correct. Plenty of other people on message boards making similar claims, but not a single reputable source.

Seriously, anybody who claims another definition or who claims that it's largely considered an acceptable strategy simply hasn't played enough of the game or played the game recently enough. Most every single high level competitive league or tournament removes it as a rule, it is considered broken and unfun in pub games, and Icefrog has flat out removed it in the latest versions of his map.


no, he has not removed it. he made it harder, but trust me it is still possible to take down a tower without creeps around. all these rules you listed are great. go you! but they are all gross deviations of the rules of the game. fact of the matter is, the rules in the game state that as long as you do not tp into the enemy base without creeps present, which is all but impossible to do now, you may attack any structure at any time. just because a bunch of guys got together, formed a league and decided to supercede the rules of the game they were playing does not change the rules. by your logic, people who make leagues are more of an authority than the current editor of the game. once again, if they wanted to make bd impossible, it could be done VERY VERY VERY EASILY.

[brn4meplz]

Until a system is Expressely put in place to Stop me from doing this I'm going to do it. If that results in me beating every player who thinks them self too honorable to do it then so be it, free wins.

People keep raising this "40 min I win button" issue. Wheres your 40 min i win button? Proper team composition should either be able to keep up with/outpace them or beat them into submission much much earlier. Besides Games that play for too long are trash, No one wants to sit there for more then 1hr playing the same match, and if thats what your looking for go play an RPG because this clearly isn't the genre for you.

[daretoslack]

Until a system is Expressely put in place to Stop me from doing this I'm going to do it. If that results in me beating every player who thinks them self too honorable to do it then so be it, free wins.

People keep raising this "40 min I win button" issue. Wheres your 40 min i win button? Proper team composition should either be able to keep up with/outpace them or beat them into submission much much earlier. Besides Games that play for too long are trash, No one wants to sit there for more then 1hr playing the same match, and if thats what your looking for go play an RPG because this clearly isn't the genre for you.
You know what? So am I. If people playing this game don't the see the problem, they'll start to. Everyone start backdooring like crazy.

[ain]

It's the developers that have to define how backdooring is allowed and they are the ones to make sure it adds to the gameplay. Not some teenage nerd league.

[brn4meplz]

You know what? So am I. If people playing this game don't the see the problem, they'll start to. Everyone start backdooring like crazy.


They don't see a problem because there isn't one. So go ahead, "backdoor" all you like. The game shouldn't go for marathon length anyway and Both teams have the ability to pick heroes that can effectively utilize this tactic. Your justa knob for not realizing it. Half the people here don't even know why they they want to ban it. It's just what they are used to. It's no different from playing an RTS game and saying "Ohh i shouldn't build that, it would win too fast"

[mike_p]

just relax. this pro-backdoor mentality is just an indicator of how new and young this hon community is. competitive leagues have rules in place to stop backdooring because it has been deemed unfair or detrimental to the game. the same can be said about the tower regen feature. give it time and community will see how imbalanced backdooring can be. the developement of most of dota's most important features took tons of time to be implemented. we're just spoiled that S2 had so much to work from that we expect a perfect game. remember, its still in beta.

[Bonburner]

After playing THR for a bit I got over BD. Its really easy to counter with the current DotA because buildings get mad regeneration from a failed BD attempt. Just carry a 135 tp scroll or by Post Haste(boots of travel). Its really easy to counter, saved me from many games and made some games actually more exciting, a race to see who thrones it first. Although I see less evenly matched games in HoN.

[Elerion]

This discussion has to be split into two parts:

1. Should you be able to backdoor (creep skip) as long as the game mechanically allows you to?

I argue yes. Player controlled "Gentlemen's" rules are a pain in the ass to monitor and enforce. In a tournament you can enforce such things due to the presence of unbiased administrative staff. In a public environment, you can't. As long as it's possible to backdoor, go for it. I will. That's the most level playing field we can achieve.

2. Should S2 aim to introduce mechanics that limit backdooring (creep skip)?

I argue yes. Backdooring is a poorly balanced tactic where certain heroes are excessively difficult to stop without a constant multiple person defense. Examples of such heroes are invis carries (Madman, Scout, Night Hound), blinking carries (Magebane) or heroes with highly building-destructive spells (Pollywog Priest, Torturer, Defiler).

Note that the problem with backdooring is not that it's impossible to defend against. On the contrary, it's extremely easy to defend against. The problem is that it's very hard to defend against while simultaneously trying to win the game.

The combination of a decently farmed backdoor specialist and 4 good defenders makes for a team that is almost impossible to push against. If you push with 5 men, you endure the guaranteed loss of multiple buildings to the backdooring hero, while your own push can still very much fail - 4 defenders are not that inferior to 5 attackers all else equal. If you leave 2 defenders behind to deal with the backdoorer, you are pretty much guaranteed to fail in your push. On the other hand, if you never push, the backdooring team will never win either.

The logical outcome between two rational teams (where at least one employs backdooring tactics) is a stalemate where no team tries to win until they are either overcome by boredom or happen to catch the other team making a mistake. Even though this outcome is just as competitive and "fair" as any other outcome, we probably don't want our game to be like that.

The comparison made to offside rules in soccer/hockey etc made earlier was actually very good. We could certainly play without offside in those sports. It would be roughly equally fair for both teams. However, we implemented offside rules to promote offensive and entertaining play. Similarly, we should stop backdooring to promote offensive and entertaining play.



TLDR Version:
1. Backdoor as much as you want, as long as the game mechanically allows you to do so.
2. We should encourage S2 to implement a mechanical way to limit/stop backdooring, because it makes for a healthier game.

[Shana1]

guys relax all noobs that they think backdoor is cool and can be counter esay wont go to tournaments :D so just lets them talk and bann these motha****** peoples :D:D

After realese we will see a tounrement for HoN like dota-league and we will see what for rules we will have

nothing more to discuss

[DamnedReg]

I really don't see what the problem is. If backdooring is so overpowered, then both teams will do it right? They'll each keep 3-4 people at base to defend and only send 1-2 guys to suicide on the buildings. Sounds interesting to me. There is by no means any hero who can destroy a tower without being stopped by 2 or 3 competent heroes of similiar power. The whole BDing being an easy win thing is a load of crap. If it's so easy for 1 guy on their supposedly inferior team to destroy a tower, why doesn't your team split up, double team their backdoor and send 1 guy to each tower of their base? Why don't all 5 of you pretty much ignore their 4 heroes and focus down the tower and rax faster than 1 lousy hero possibly could?

If one guy is outperforming your entire team, you weren't really winning, you just weren't encountering the real power the enemy team had (Their amazing carry) and were beating up the weakest links and forcing the carry to avoid a direct conflict 5v1. You shouldn't be able to just ignore a hero like that. On top of that, heroes with the ability to destroy buildings especially fast should get to make use of those abilities. If they turn out to be too powerful when used properly, rebalance them. Make buildings stronger vs heroes but more vulnerable to creeps. Make teleporting to a tower under attack faster. Make the game bloody interesting though, don't turn it into some single lane meat grinder so that people with ADD don't feel bad when their base is demolished while they were farming neutrals and typing "PWNED U ****!!!".

[Hippie]

Backdoor has never been overpowered. I don't know what these newfangled leagues are thinking, but back before CAL died due to the presence of too many competing leagues for CS (which was their main draw) backdooring was 100% legal as long as you didn't do it by teleporting INTO their base with Furion. Did this ruin the league? Hell no. People still played a hard-fought game, and backdooring rarely (if ever) changed the game. What it did do was give people who are permanently on the defensive some kind of option, risky as it may be.

You guys who say you're so pro and that because you're so pro you know that BD is overpowered are full of crap. Let's see here. First of all, if they have a super-powered carry, either you should as well OR you let him farm too much. How is that the fault of backdooring? YOU let the carry get to the point where he could pull it off. Your fault, not the fault of the strategy. Second of all, if their carry does go to backdoor your towers and you're in the middle of a 5 man push? KILL THEIR ENTIRE TEAM AND PUSH THE TREE/THRONE. You have 5 heroes, he is but one. Even if you lose a couple, as long as YOUR carry is still up (and has actually reached a respectable level of power) you WILL win the base race. Third of all, if you're not confident in your ability to base race him, TELEPORT TO YOUR BASE, STUN HIM, KILL HIM, AND GO BACK AND FINISH THEM OFF. That late in the game he'll have about a 90s respawn. If he buys back, play defense and counter their push/backdoor, then push in again.

Backdooring IS a valid strategy, and CAN be countered, despite all of you "pros" who say it can't be. The hatred for backdooring is a thing of the past when you could simply skip towers - now that that isn't possible, what in the HELL is wrong with a hero who's powerful enough to take down a tower doing so? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You just have people who have ARBITRARILY DECLARED IT "cheap" to do so. It's counterable and therefore not cheap. Learn to deal with it and suck it up. This entire argument is completely ridiculous and just showcases the fact that people who think they're pro... are usually only pro when they're in games where everyone conforms to exactly how the "pros" want them to play. Of course you can smash a predictable team. Learn to beat people who play smart as well.

[yUsoBad]

Hmm, if running in ahead of your creeps. only relying on yourself fighting in your enemies base near a tower not helping your team is cheap, then wouldn't skills that make you invisible be cheap as well? you have to counter with wards or skills, same as backdoor (not wards but tp items) and anyway in the time it takes a tank to down a tower and rax by himself dont you think u could take 4 heros and tower/rax? the other team being down a tank/carry/support is still a big disadvantage in a typical 5v5 game. yea its annoying but so is anything that disadvantages you... think about it.

[Ulquiorra2]

y make a rule that makes the game on purpose easier i still dont get what people are complaing about. if u wish to run ahed then do so, leaving creeps jus makes u more vunerable, therefore 'backooring' should be fully legal else s2 should make a game mode where all bulding are invunrable i mean we woundnt want to kil them now would we

[SmokeShow]

If Backdooring is to remain/become legal then late game there is absolutely NO reason to push the creeps any longer.

The problem is, is that all the nubs don't understand just how devestating 'backdooring' can be because they don't know how to do it right. For anyone that thinks backdooring is legit if you play a game with me and allow me to backdoor I can gaurantee you that you will not win. Only a pub-nub thinks it's a good strat that needs no restrictions.

That being said I'm a big advocate of 'if it works in the game then exploit it' otherwise it's a bug or an imba. I really believe backdooring should be allowed so that we can ALL learn how to do it really well so that all these nubs understand just how UN-FUN it makes the game. So exploit it, backdoor please EVERYONE. Just liek when a new hero comes out that is OP EXPLOIT EXPLOIT EXPLOIT!

Then S2 can put in place the correct mechanisms IN CODE to dis-allow it if we need it.

Problem solved...

[Tenet]

it was not just furion
you could easily sneak through the forest with every hero and attack the buildings without creeps
that is BD

You mean going around the main entrances while stealthed by Tango/Rune of Blight through the forest surrounding the base in DotA?

It fits the definition of backdoor - but should be resolved by better map design in HoN.

What everyone here calls Backdoor is in 99% of the cases just creep-skipping and Split-Team tactics, both easily counterable and completely valid ways to play to win.

[furu]

Won't be allowed in major leagues(if theres ever gonna be), At public I dont care.

[Puck]

Backdoor has never been overpowered. I don't know what these newfangled leagues are thinking, but back before CAL died due to the presence of too many competing leagues for CS (which was their main draw) backdooring was 100% legal as long as you didn't do it by teleporting INTO their base with Furion. Did this ruin the league? Hell no. People still played a hard-fought game, and backdooring rarely (if ever) changed the game. What it did do was give people who are permanently on the defensive some kind of option, risky as it may be.

You guys who say you're so pro and that because you're so pro you know that BD is overpowered are full of crap. Let's see here. First of all, if they have a super-powered carry, either you should as well OR you let him farm too much. How is that the fault of backdooring? YOU let the carry get to the point where he could pull it off. Your fault, not the fault of the strategy. Second of all, if their carry does go to backdoor your towers and you're in the middle of a 5 man push? KILL THEIR ENTIRE TEAM AND PUSH THE TREE/THRONE. You have 5 heroes, he is but one. Even if you lose a couple, as long as YOUR carry is still up (and has actually reached a respectable level of power) you WILL win the base race. Third of all, if you're not confident in your ability to base race him, TELEPORT TO YOUR BASE, STUN HIM, KILL HIM, AND GO BACK AND FINISH THEM OFF. That late in the game he'll have about a 90s respawn. If he buys back, play defense and counter their push/backdoor, then push in again.

Backdooring IS a valid strategy, and CAN be countered, despite all of you "pros" who say it can't be. The hatred for backdooring is a thing of the past when you could simply skip towers - now that that isn't possible, what in the HELL is wrong with a hero who's powerful enough to take down a tower doing so? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You just have people who have ARBITRARILY DECLARED IT "cheap" to do so. It's counterable and therefore not cheap. Learn to deal with it and suck it up. This entire argument is completely ridiculous and just showcases the fact that people who think they're pro... are usually only pro when they're in games where everyone conforms to exactly how the "pros" want them to play. Of course you can smash a predictable team. Learn to beat people who play smart as well.

Basically, this. If I may add a thing or two...

The worst part about people who think backdooring is cheap is that they don't even understand the argument against backdooring. If you're going to to advocate for a feature's removal, you have to demonstrate it makes the game less competitively interesting. The offending feature should cause a GROSS LOSS OF VIABLE OPTIONS from the game. In other words, when you say something is "cheap," what you really mean is "because of backdooring, the only way to win the game is backdooring, and maybe strategy B, but C through Z no longer work. Consequently, the game is no longer interesting to play." You should argue along those lines, because otherwise you just sound like a whiny twelve year old.

Of above type arguments, which I rarely see, Elerion has made the best case in this thread. Personally, I think the existence of CAL et. al. is good evidence that backdooring causes a net increase, not decrease, in viable ways to play the game. If anything, the glyph of fortification system was perfect and Icefrog's recent implementation was forced and unnecessary.

[Tenet]

Backdoor has never been overpowered. I don't know what these newfangled leagues are thinking, but back before CAL died due to the presence of too many competing leagues for CS (which was their main draw) backdooring was 100% legal as long as you didn't do it by teleporting INTO their base with Furion. Did this ruin the league? Hell no. People still played a hard-fought game, and backdooring rarely (if ever) changed the game. What it did do was give people who are permanently on the defensive some kind of option, risky as it may be.

You guys who say you're so pro and that because you're so pro you know that BD is overpowered are full of crap. Let's see here. First of all, if they have a super-powered carry, either you should as well OR you let him farm too much. How is that the fault of backdooring? YOU let the carry get to the point where he could pull it off. Your fault, not the fault of the strategy. Second of all, if their carry does go to backdoor your towers and you're in the middle of a 5 man push? KILL THEIR ENTIRE TEAM AND PUSH THE TREE/THRONE. You have 5 heroes, he is but one. Even if you lose a couple, as long as YOUR carry is still up (and has actually reached a respectable level of power) you WILL win the base race. Third of all, if you're not confident in your ability to base race him, TELEPORT TO YOUR BASE, STUN HIM, KILL HIM, AND GO BACK AND FINISH THEM OFF. That late in the game he'll have about a 90s respawn. If he buys back, play defense and counter their push/backdoor, then push in again.

Backdooring IS a valid strategy, and CAN be countered, despite all of you "pros" who say it can't be. The hatred for backdooring is a thing of the past when you could simply skip towers - now that that isn't possible, what in the HELL is wrong with a hero who's powerful enough to take down a tower doing so? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You just have people who have ARBITRARILY DECLARED IT "cheap" to do so. It's counterable and therefore not cheap. Learn to deal with it and suck it up. This entire argument is completely ridiculous and just showcases the fact that people who think they're pro... are usually only pro when they're in games where everyone conforms to exactly how the "pros" want them to play. Of course you can smash a predictable team. Learn to beat people who play smart as well.

Agree wholeheartedly.

[contrast]

Read my signature.

[FZeroRacer]

The worst part about people who think backdooring is cheap is that they don't even understand the argument against backdooring. If you're going to to advocate for a feature's removal, you have to demonstrate it makes the game less competitively interesting. The offending feature should cause a GROSS LOSS OF VIABLE OPTIONS from the game. In other words, when you say something is "cheap," what you really mean is "because of backdooring, the only way to win the game is backdooring, and maybe strategy B, but C through Z no longer work. Consequently, the game is no longer interesting to play." You should argue along those lines, because otherwise you just sound like a whiny twelve year old.see:


I really don't see what the problem is. If backdooring is so overpowered, then both teams will do it right? They'll each keep 3-4 people at base to defend and only send 1-2 guys to suicide on the buildings. Sounds interesting to me. There is by no means any hero who can destroy a tower without being stopped by 2 or 3 competent heroes of similiar power. The whole BDing being an easy win thing is a load of crap. If it's so easy for 1 guy on their supposedly inferior team to destroy a tower, why doesn't your team split up, double team their backdoor and send 1 guy to each tower of their base? Why don't all 5 of you pretty much ignore their 4 heroes and focus down the tower and rax faster than 1 lousy hero possibly could?
This is essentially what backdooring causes. That's also why Icefrog implemented the current backdooring system I believe, in order to reduce the chances of this occurring. The game turns more into "who can backdoor better" and less about 5v5 teamfights in pushes/counter pushes and so forth.

And regarding the last statement where five heroes can take down a 'rax faster than one can, yeah, no. You did not factor in that they still have four players on their team alive who are defending all nice and well, and can stall very easily while that lone hero completely destroys your rax. Asking a team to 'completely ignore four heroes on the other team' is impossible and entirely stupid.

Additionally once that hero is in there and deals damage, it sticks. It's there for the rest of the game. It doesn't matter if you kill him ten times over, if he deals 1/4th life of the 'rax each time you kill him, he's still winning because your 'rax are going to die anyways. Then it also causes team fights to become skewered, considering you'll need two heroes to stop a backdooring hero usually.

[NekoMaO]

Backdoor has never been overpowered. I don't know what these newfangled leagues are thinking, but back before CAL died due to the presence of too many competing leagues for CS (which was their main draw) backdooring was 100% legal as long as you didn't do it by teleporting INTO their base with Furion. Did this ruin the league? Hell no. People still played a hard-fought game, and backdooring rarely (if ever) changed the game. What it did do was give people who are permanently on the defensive some kind of option, risky as it may be.

You guys who say you're so pro and that because you're so pro you know that BD is overpowered are full of crap. Let's see here. First of all, if they have a super-powered carry, either you should as well OR you let him farm too much. How is that the fault of backdooring? YOU let the carry get to the point where he could pull it off. Your fault, not the fault of the strategy. Second of all, if their carry does go to backdoor your towers and you're in the middle of a 5 man push? KILL THEIR ENTIRE TEAM AND PUSH THE TREE/THRONE. You have 5 heroes, he is but one. Even if you lose a couple, as long as YOUR carry is still up (and has actually reached a respectable level of power) you WILL win the base race. Third of all, if you're not confident in your ability to base race him, TELEPORT TO YOUR BASE, STUN HIM, KILL HIM, AND GO BACK AND FINISH THEM OFF. That late in the game he'll have about a 90s respawn. If he buys back, play defense and counter their push/backdoor, then push in again.

Backdooring IS a valid strategy, and CAN be countered, despite all of you "pros" who say it can't be. The hatred for backdooring is a thing of the past when you could simply skip towers - now that that isn't possible, what in the HELL is wrong with a hero who's powerful enough to take down a tower doing so? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You just have people who have ARBITRARILY DECLARED IT "cheap" to do so. It's counterable and therefore not cheap. Learn to deal with it and suck it up. This entire argument is completely ridiculous and just showcases the fact that people who think they're pro... are usually only pro when they're in games where everyone conforms to exactly how the "pros" want them to play. Of course you can smash a predictable team. Learn to beat people who play smart as well.

Warning : Wall Of Text Detected.

To be said the truth, i'll be enjoying to watch you being harassed by Queen of Pain with Linken Sphere, Boots Of Travel, Manta Style, Scepter, Black King Bar, Guinsoo's Scythe of Vyse(Hex Staff). Or Higher DPS item.

I will sure be enjoy you cries when you see this queen of pain backdooring your base. Good luck, have fun. because why? because you and your teammates will be stuck at base defending the whole time. Good luck, Enjoy Being Harassed and Feel the Power of Backdooring yourself.

Think it's a fair game? think again when you being harassed by this. and please, do you have solution to counter this backdoor? Oh Master Padawan, please share your wisdom of light. Don't tell me to buy TP and Counter This, because QoP can Blink freely into your base and harass to force you to camp in base. When you TP, he blinks, that simple, OR to end the game earlier, if opponent playing defensive style nuker hero(Heroes such as Earth Shaker, Zeus, Tinker, Tiny, Bane Elementer, Priestest Of The Moon) that only requires Blink Dagger and Alot Of Bracers And TP to always standby to TP to support player/help player/assist kill. They are Completely Untouchable in pro games. if you gank, you pay the price.

As long as they keep the pressure on you, your will only have 2 results.
1st, you are defeated early, and lose the game.
2nd, you defended them and drag the game until you make a comeback and starts pushing towards back to them, and they choose to backdoor you.

As we all know, Gold earn is split among teammates, because each wave of creeps is 4 at starting(x3 if you added another 2 lane, and that's 12 total of creeps), and you make about 150gold~250gold if you manage to Last hit on all of them. with queen of pain being highly mobile and blink across terrain and guarding 2 lanes, which is about 300~500 gold per 30 seconds, and posible Neutral creep kills with extra 100 gold. and remember this, Creeps total number is always increasing as the game progress, maybe there's more creep when you reach there, or less. But this won't causes much trouble for Queen of pain to farm. Because posible of 3 of his teammates already get the item early(simple item such as Boots of speed, Blink dagger, 2~3Bracers, 1 Teleport, 1 bottle if he got 2 bracers) and leaving 1 lane to let warder farms and supply wards while 3 hero are farming at neutral and always preparing to TP or support. in this Hard to Gank situation, players are mostly forced into farm. Maybe a early game push? That's posible, but there's risk to take, everyone know that.

But as we all know, As the game progress longer and longer, it tends to become more and more ugly and resulting backdoor, and of cause, there's alot of flaming and whining about backdoor, and people will say, "Backdoor is allowed Nub!" and might posible for others to reply "Go back to your *Insert Name Here* League Nub!".

What i'm saying here is base on my Experience. Everything here belongs to Dota. As we all know, HoN is still in Beta, and alot Features to be add, and alot of improvement going on.

But as for now, let's hope that HoN fix his most hero bugs and fix on features before moving into adding things Anti-Backdooring blah blah blah. We should wait while HoN get rid of most of it's bugs and adding more Hero.

PS : Sorry for my Poor English.

[pedobearpig]

Warning : Wall Of Text Detected.

To be said the truth, i'll be enjoying to watch you being harassed by Queen of Pain with Linken Sphere, Boots Of Travel, Manta Style, Scepter, Black King Bar, Guinsoo's Scythe of Vyse(Hex Staff). Or Higher DPS item.


if you let the game go on that long that she was able to get all those items, you deserve everything you get. i cant believe you are using this as an example. terribad.

[QuestionC]

[COLOR=Red]Queen of Pain with Linken Sphere, Boots Of Travel, Manta Style, Scepter, Black King Bar, Guinsoo's Scythe of Vyse(Hex Staff). Or Higher DPS item.

Oh wow. That was a great laugh.

[xxzxcuzx_me]

Backdooring just sucks imo

[Zingo]

I don't aprove of backdooring either, however what can you do in a public game?

Best thing is to handle it yourself if you have a big problem with it, adding them to your own banlist or playing tournaments later on.

[Phibius]

Backdoor is part of the game. Always has been, always will. You don't want it, play with refs.

[NekoMaO]

if you let the game go on that long that she was able to get all those items, you deserve everything you get. i cant believe you are using this as an example. terribad.

I apologize if you fail to farm those item, Pros has item formula of which item to get first to maximize farming and ganking ability, i could get those within 50 minutes. wanna bet? and even League Tournament.(Sorry if you think this is some everyday public game, i apologize for your lack of knowledge)

i'm not talking about public games that backdoor, and futhermore? i'm the one that harass them, read clearly, i never said i'm the one that being harassed by opponent.

By the way, thanks for reading and adding wrong information, i appreciated that you don't read at all in the first place.


Oh wow. That was a great laugh.

If you wanted to laugh, go laugh somewhere else, and please stay to the topic. No one cares if you laugh or you cries or you moan. Thanks for cooperation.


And Finally, i just complain about Dota. and let us share the idea for anti backdoor, for those that oppose this idea, no one cares if you rejecting it and coming here just to be troll or splashing cold waters.(At least let us have a place to speak about this idea, and S2games are the developer, not us, they have the choice to add any system available, not us)

Apparently, i don't really see any backdoor in HoN yet until now. Because most game i played are ended between time of 20minutes to 40 minutes, i personally think the game is ends more earlier than dota. And Normal damage is aren't effective as Magic damage nuke, Maybe i'm wrong, just some of my opinion.

[pedobearpig]

I apologize if you fail to farm those item, Pros has item formula of which item to get first to maximize farming and ganking ability, i could get those within 50 minutes. wanna bet? and even League Tournament.(Sorry if you think this is some everyday public game, i apologize for your lack of knowledge)

show me multiple replays of a qop farming those items in a league game. then i will recant my post. there have been MULTIPLE threads started on this subject one of the first was started by yours truly. a rep from S2 chimed in on it and said, any structure that is able to be attack can be attacked AT ANY TIME. it would seem that you are the one with the lack of knowledge. all i ever do is quote the rules of the game you are playing. all you seem to be doing is spewing out some hypothetical drivel about pros being able to farm 4 t4 items in a 50 min game consistently. so show me the replays. BRO.

[Consummate]

I don't understand what is wrong with backdooring...

It's a tactic both teams can use.
No team is advantaged by using the strat, since both can do it.
It is risky.

If you lost because of backdooring and you were winning in hero kills, you probably never actually pushed, thus this is a fault in your teams strategy. Raxing in this game is 100x better than in Dota since the creeps become really strong (remember the little sign that says "the creeps have become stronger" that appears every so often?).

While they're backdooring, you're amassing a load of creeps in your corridor/s which helps you push faster than them backdooring. So in the end, backdooring did more damage than good if your team isn't entirely clueless.

Pretty much, the first team to rax is likely to win in an even matched game.

[Castolo]

Dota has an issue that if you are backdooring without any creepd, the buildings heal instead of taking damage.

[Slayn]

this thread is so overloaded with the same fu**ing arguments, there are pros AND cons. people can't accept this and spamming time and time again the same old stuff. so what, it somehow a tactic and some think it's lame. ok i agree in a way it is lame.
so jsut ****in make a mode which allows BD or not allows it, DONE!!
no freakin endless discussions about it. every host can set this mode if he wants OR NOT!
dont see any sense in discussing this for years. hope someone agrees with me!

[Whitebushid1]

Wall Of Text

That's why there will be glyph and 40health/sec regen on towers, so you can't just harass the towers down, you have to kill them before you leave or else you just wasted a minute getting down there and trying to damage the towers/raxes.

There are counters to bding now(tping/warding), there will be more counters to it in the future. I don't understand why leagues haven't unbanned it since the recent changes, back before tons of leagues sprouted up it wasn't banned.

[Rippsy]

I don't understand why leagues haven't unbanned it since the recent changes, back before tons of leagues sprouted up it wasn't banned.

Leagues are like government, change is to be feared.

[PrOvokator1]

I like things being fair,which BD is hardly considered as such.IMO destroying buildings without/skipping creeps is a big no no.Even though i see sometimes ppl trying to pull something like that,I would never try it,cause it is simply not fair and it kinda goes againts the whole "pushing" principle.
IMHO,no creeps no structures.Once you are in the base with the creeps,you can take any structure you want,even though it is not on the same lane from which creeps came.Anything else beside that,should be considered lame and as such forbiden.
Cheers

[damelon]

This definately needs to be a hosting "option". No one who wants backdooring can argue if they join a game where it is enabled, and no one who thinks it is wrong can complain because they can join games with no backdooring. Both sides are satisfied and both sides of the argument are implemented.

I personally view it as someone bringing a gun to an MMA match. Sort of circumvents the entire purpose of the event to begin with,

[Rippsy]

I like things being fair,which BD is hardly considered as such.IMO destroying buildings without/skipping creeps is a big no no.Even though i see sometimes ppl trying to pull something like that,I would never try it,cause it is simply not fair and it kinda goes againts the whole "pushing" principle.
IMHO,no creeps no structures.Once you are in the base with the creeps,you can take any structure you want,even though it is not on the same lane from which creeps came.Anything else beside that,should be considered lame and as such forbiden.
Cheers

I totally disagree; limiting your methods to win because you have decided to play the game by a meta-rule that is not enforced by the engine is making you play a disadvantaged version of the game.


This definately needs to be a hosting "option". No one who wants backdooring can argue if they join a game where it is enabled, and no one who thinks it is wrong can complain because they can join games with no backdooring. Both sides are satisfied and both sides of the argument are implemented.

I personally view it as someone bringing a gun to an MMA match. Sort of circumvents the entire purpose of the event to begin with,

I don't feel it needs to be a hosting option; just a "make people aware" in the gamename "NOBD" etc

It all comes down to knowing the rules of the game you are playing; since this is 'unwritten' and the engine allows it people assume either way; assumption is what causes the grief. If everyone knows that is it is OK or NOT OK then a lot of that disappears.

[damelon]

I don't feel it needs to be a hosting option; just a "make people aware" in the gamename "NOBD" etc

It all comes down to knowing the rules of the game you are playing; since this is 'unwritten' and the engine allows it people assume either way; assumption is what causes the grief. If everyone knows that is it is OK or NOT OK then a lot of that disappears.

The problem is that if it is just in the title, 1) it doesnt actually prevent anything, and you can still have people do it even if you dont want it and 2) no one even reads the titles. I see games that say AREM like in dota but are non-em AP games

[furu]

"NOBD" in gamename is gonna work as good as "no noobs" in gamename... which doesnt work at all.

[NekoMaO]

show me multiple replays of a qop farming those items in a league game. then i will recant my post. there have been MULTIPLE threads started on this subject one of the first was started by yours truly. a rep from S2 chimed in on it and said, any structure that is able to be attack can be attacked AT ANY TIME. it would seem that you are the one with the lack of knowledge. all i ever do is quote the rules of the game you are playing. all you seem to be doing is spewing out some hypothetical drivel about pros being able to farm 4 t4 items in a 50 min game consistently. so show me the replays. BRO.

I apologize for offensive writing on my post(Sorry, i'm kinda moody that time) to not be able to get the replay since, it's from years ago, and Queen of Pain's blink has been Neft from 5 to 6 second cooldown(to be less power in backdoor) and since then there's not much usage Queen of Pain in recent Version, There's a few available, but it's just hard to find since the nerf and it's using Warcraft Version 1.21,1.20e(well, you know asians, but that was years ago) So old replays that could not be compatible with recent versions tends to get deleted.

As for i'm saying, this is Dota Issues, and i don't see Backdoor issues appearing here in this HoN game, read previous post that i stated about HoN games tends to end earlier than dota games. I got a personal feeling that Spell is more powerful in HoN, was it my mistake for seeing better graphics as more powerful spell? I'm not sure.


That's why there will be glyph and 40health/sec regen on towers, so you can't just harass the towers down, you have to kill them before you leave or else you just wasted a minute getting down there and trying to damage the towers/raxes.

There are counters to bding now(tping/warding), there will be more counters to it in the future. I don't understand why leagues haven't unbanned it since the recent changes, back before tons of leagues sprouted up it wasn't banned.

Was there a 40health/sec Regen on Tower? Hmm, i don't know about this. I just know that towers get +999999 Armor, and anything that hits Tower will results in -1HP.

Well, Icefrog is nefting certain hero that is effective in backdooring(example of queen of pain's Blink cooldown increase from 5s to 6s) and giving us a chance to defend and kill the backdoorer and prevent him for abusing the same tactics(because if he survives, harassing will continue). That's why more and more leagues are now unban backdoor, and allow backdooring since it's more difficult now.

[Uludayen]

Backdooring is fair.

And no, Neko, the 40hp/s regen is a different thing.

[Whitebushid1]

I like things being fair,which BD is hardly considered as such.IMO destroying buildings without/skipping creeps is a big no no.Even though i see sometimes ppl trying to pull something like that,I would never try it,cause it is simply not fair and it kinda goes againts the whole "pushing" principle.
IMHO,no creeps no structures.Once you are in the base with the creeps,you can take any structure you want,even though it is not on the same lane from which creeps came.Anything else beside that,should be considered lame and as such forbiden.
Cheers

As others have posted, you need to take a long read of the "Playing to Win"(it's in a few signatures). You are the exact description he gives of a scrub, who will allow himself to lose but hold strong to his code of honor(not bding).

[Marijuana]

This isn't DotA. Backdooring is legal.

[contrast]

I like things being fair,which BD is hardly considered as such.

How is it no fair when both sides are able to do it equally?

With regards to those saying that the dota "anti-backdoor" system is in place to prevent backdooring, that may not be the case. If Icefrog wanted to prevent backdooring altogether, he would have set towers to invunerable INSTEAD of making them regenerate at a fast rate. So what does that mean (talking about dota here), that he is not preventing backdooring completely, but is preventing it from happening too early in the game, i.e. backdooring will only work well once the hero has a high amount of dps.

With regards to HON, if you can attack it then you are allowed to do it. If you are going to cry about backdooring, then don't forget to cry about:


choosing a stealth hero
denying creeps
timing your last hits
using a bottle to capture runes
placing wards
voice chat having an advantage over typing
widescreen users having an advantage over other users
having friends playing on the same team
more than one person on a team buying a hex stick
more than one person on a team buying a bkb
receiving gold when you kill a hero
buying boots to increase your movement speed
towers doing too much damage
spells using mana

[Charade]

the backdoor rule is retarded. it should be allowed.

[PuppetSoul]

No. Backdooring is fair, it's counterable with tping and defending. It's not immature to backdoor, it's smart.

Actually it's not. If your opponent has Nymphora, they can teleport the ENTIRE TEAM directly into your base to bd a tower or building, and then teleport away at their leisure with scrolls/boots when they see enough teleport beams appear to counter. In that way, you literally cannot leave your base for more than a minute, making it impossible to rax her team without sacrificing large portions of your base in the process. And even if you DO show up to defend, in that five to ten seconds MINIMUM it takes to coordinate a response they'll likely have shaved at least half of the HP off a tower each time and teleport out. So your only possible response is to wait and get base raped, or manage to bd them faster.

[inew]

Why not just add the fortification spell like that of dota in this game....It will buy time against bder for you to tp back... and kill them...

[PuppetSoul]

Why not just add the fortification spell like that of dota in this game....It will buy time against bder for you to tp back... and kill them...

Realize that Dota is set up so that if you hit a building which hasn't been attacked by a creep in the past minute, that it gets 100hp/s regen.

[contrast]

Actually it's not. If your opponent has Nymphora, they can teleport the ENTIRE TEAM directly into your base to bd a tower or building, and then teleport away at their leisure with scrolls/boots when they see enough teleport beams appear to counter. In that way, you literally cannot leave your base for more than a minute, making it impossible to rax her team without sacrificing large portions of your base in the process. And even if you DO show up to defend, in that five to ten seconds MINIMUM it takes to coordinate a response they'll likely have shaved at least half of the HP off a tower each time and teleport out. So your only possible response is to wait and get base raped, or manage to bd them faster.

You can push one of even two of the other lanes while their whole team is backdooring one of yours. If they choose to keep backdooring they will lose 1-2 towers or even raxes if they choose not to defend. If you decide to defend you can tp back (should always carry tp with you), your team can take out a couple of their heroes easily since you (may) have a tower on your side and they have no creep support. Suddenly they have 2 dead, easy push for you.

Yes backdooring is a strong strategy, and all those who are anti-backdoor only prove this more. But just because it is a good strategy does not mean it is invincible. Test it out, join a pub game and try and backdoor and I guarantee you it will not work everytime.

[pinkt4l1ty]

Don't you understand that backdooring is just ridiculous and that there is a reason why it is NEVER EVER allowed in competetive dota?


BD is getting allowed in higher lvl leagues more and more often for a reason, don't consider Dota League "competetive" dota plz.

BD is fine, it's easy to counter tbh, u can ward the lane you're afraid being backdoored, you can carry TPs.. Would be sad to see S2 making as big a deal of BD as DotA used to do :\

[Digicon]

Test it out, join a pub game and try and backdoor and I guarantee you it will not work everytime.

For sure. It's easy to complain about when backdoors happen to you while you're playing, but give it a shot sometime. Unless the team you're playing has no disables and no common sense...

...not often but I've completely botched a few attempts myself while playing geared late-game carries, just because opposing team wasn't retarded and all carried BoT's/TP's on them.

[CloudKen]

i don't find anything wrong with Bd, no glyph of fort.
carry a tp, if your opponent gets a genocide, its your own fault u get gg'ed.
and/or for those whiny people i will give a suggestion:
add a feature so that a glyph of fortification appears in the 45minute mark (usually respawn times take around 60+ seconds to revive) to make it fair.

[PuppetSoul]

You can push one of even two of the other lanes while their whole team is backdooring one of yours. If they choose to keep backdooring they will lose 1-2 towers or even raxes if they choose not to defend.

Did you not read the last line where I said the only counter to bd is to bd faster? You won't push towers and rax them faster than they can straight rax you, considering yours is responsive. Assuming carries of equal strength, by the time you drop the first rax, you'll also get a sweet chart which shows how many denies each person on your team has, because you didn't drop everything and go defend your own base.

BDs cannot be ignored, unless you already have multiple lanes pushed, or are already raxing them. If the BD is the initiator, the only possible responses are to either go defend and spend the rest of the game inside your base, or bd them faster.

Considering any smart BD team would drop wards inside your base once they get there, so they know when it's safe to warp back in and pick up where they left off, teleporting back puts you in a fairly disadvantageous position.

[contrast]

Actually it's not. If your opponent has Nymphora, they can teleport the ENTIRE TEAM directly into your base to bd a tower or building, and then teleport away at their leisure with scrolls/boots when they see enough teleport beams appear to counter.

If you're going to be so picky then you should get all of your facts straight. Nymphora's ultimate does not teleport the entire team, only 2 random allies (at level 3). Nymphora + 2 = 3 heroes. Sure, those two left over heroes can just wait in the jungle until the rest teleport there, but the same can be said about the whole team waiting in the jungle. Even an entire team under Valkyrie's ultimate can be used in the same sense.


in that five to ten seconds MINIMUM it takes to coordinate a response

Run through this in your head. You're farming a lane, you see the enemies dots in your base backdooring. You click your teleport scroll and teleport back to base. Competent players will be back at the base (assuming tp) five to eight seconds MAXIMUM.


Did you not read the last line where I said the only counter to bd is to bd faster? You won't push towers and rax them faster than they can straight rax you, considering yours is responsive. Assuming carries of equal strength, by the time you drop the first rax, you'll also get a sweet chart which shows how many denies each person on your team has, because you didn't drop everything and go defend your own base.

Why can't you push towers and rax them faster? You have the added creep support, while they do not. In fact they will have creep resistence with no support to counter it. Every second they waste killing a creep will be one more second in your favour.


If the BD is the initiator, the only possible responses are to either go defend and spend the rest of the game inside your base, or bd them faster.

Considering any smart BD team would drop wards inside your base once they get there, so they know when it's safe to warp back in and pick up where they left off, teleporting back puts you in a fairly disadvantageous position.

Well going by your incredibly tight knit scenario with a "check mate" stamp on it, then yes you are in a difficult situation. Unless you wait in your base after the initial backdoor. No need to worry about wards since towers are up, and even if they dropped them in good spots that were out of sight from towers, surely you would see it in their inventories or even dropping them in your base in the first place.

Who is to say that you won't kill any of them? What if you do make it back in time (not that hard) to defend your base. If they end up killing your team then the issue is not the backdoor itself but the team battle that just took place.

[gk2]

List player used BD zzz

sLAUGHTER -- lvl 8 ?
stroggs
[CoS]Dugz
regen4



Yes backdooring is a strong strategy but ..."Fair? " :mad::mad:

[Aesij]

Anyone saying that backdooring should be a part of the game doesn't really know the game well enough to understand that it's just not possible.
You've been playing too much public dota with TDA rules where everyone suck too hard to understand that pushing heroes are completly unstopable if backdooring is allowed.

For instance, a rhasta ulti backdooring (imagine how sick it gets when he gets his refresher), broodmother spiderlings (usally a bit easier to counter), any farmed lategame hero with strong DPS, a well farmed krobelus rushing for the towers.

The worst backdooring part of all is probaly when you kill 2 enemy heroes and go straight for base lategame without having a push.
Don't you understand that backdooring is just ridiculous and that there is a reason why it is NEVER EVER allowed in competetive dota?

If you actually make backdooring impossible in HoN, you will have surpassed dota in public gameplay already.

Backdooring has been apart of the game since its creation.

Different competitive DotA leagues have different backdooring rules, but all of them in some form, allow it, some completely.

It would be true to say that some heroes, if backdooring is allowed with no restrictions, have an advantage over other heroes with backdooring. However if someone thinks this is a problem, they should consider it when picking heroes.

Backdooring in competitive games usually don't occur because the games don't last that long. However in the games they do last long enough, you will see on 2 heroes dead the other team running straight to the base to end the game.

Backdooring, even though usually not used, is a legitimate strategy.

[Isin]

Usually when people QQ about backdooring it's just because they let their guard down and lost due to their own incompetence, and thus want something to QQ about at the other team to make it seem like it wasn't their own fault. Any decent player can counter backdooring with post haste or tp stones. Not that hard.

If you really think it's a problem, maybe there could be an extra option that made towers invulnerable unless a creep wave was nearby.

[Workdawg]

I never played TFT Dota, but I played ROC Dota for a long time and "backdooring" was never an issue. The only unwritten rule was that you had to push the towers in order to the opponents base, and you couldn't take a rax until at least ONE base tower was down. You could kill a base tower in one lane, then go kill all the raxes if you wanted, and you didn't need any creeps with you to do it. Once you get to the point of really pushing their base, you should be concentrating on that anyways. Either in your base defending or pushing their base, not running around hunting for ganks and jungling. If you're 5-man pushing their base and they've got a hero backdooring you, you should be happy to be in a 5v4 situation, or you should retreat to defend and kill the backdooring hero. Or you leave one guy back to defend and it's 1v1 and 4v4.

I realize the two games are fairly different, but in ROC Dota, there was almost no teleporting (only the primary healing heroes could TP). It seems like having teleports available to any hero would make this even LESS of an issue. Maybe it's because HON/TFT Dota, a good team is almost always together for a 5-man effort. In ROC Dota, there were dedicated defense and offensive heroes. At least one, usually two heroes were in base defending(or nearby creeping/jungling). The only time all the heroes went together was on a counter attack. Right after fending off an attack, sprint up to their base and do as much damage as you can before they respawn to defend.

Maybe the people playing HON need to use a little bit more strategy instead of just running around in a mob mid-game on. A good disabler sitting in base farming creeps (deny and last hit just outside tower range to keep them close) should be able to put a complete stop to any backdooring hero. Use a couple wards to see when they're coming, tell your teammates, and disable till they come back to defend if you need help.

[contrast]

List player used BD zzz

sLAUGHTER -- lvl 8 ?
stroggs
[CoS]Dugz
regen4



Yes backdooring is a strong strategy but ..."Fair? " :mad::mad:

So what does "fair" mean to you?

Both teams can equally do it at any time they choose. Some heroes have an advantage with backdooring but the same can be said about any strategy. It's not like when you commence a backdoor that the game crashes instantly for the other team, or that only Legion side is able to backdoor while Hellbourne cannot.

While you're making that list add me too.

[gk2]

So what does "fair" mean to you?

It's not like when you commence a backdoor that the game crashes instantly for the other team, or that only Legion side is able to backdoor while Hellbourne cannot.

While you're making that list add me too --- .

---- Why not?
:mad::mad: