Nullfire Blade [1.62]

[LegoPirate]

Honestly, since the new frostbrand/burn, nullfire is quite simply, a counter item for jera/malphas. i almost never see it in a game unless its on valk, who goes frostbrand nowadays anyway.

the slow it offers is good, but its more expensive then frostbrand (for now atleast), it has a cooldown, and has limted charges. it also gives little suriviabilty, which is fine, but makes it pale in comparison.

as far as buffs go, you could go a few ways

1. lower recipie cost. this would make it more comprable to frostbrand.

2. make purge not have limited charges. while 8(16) charges is a good amount, you still wanna conserve for only when you really need it, plus would make it a good counter to debuffs like rupture and swarm.

3. buff the mana burn to something like either
A. 48-64
or you can go % based so it works as a good coutner to intel heros
b. 3-4% of max mana (numbers here could change)

4. better stats gain, maybe 30-35 agi/10-14 intel

basically, its an obsolete item, that needs a solid buff to make it useable. porting in the image heros wont help, because they will just choose frostbrand over nullfire all the same.

[Hat_Truck]

You have a point but Frostburn is getting a rework next patch. Depending on what is done to it, Nullfire may become more useful again.

Also, Frostburn does not counter this like Protective Charm, Malphas, Hammer's Ult, etc., so Nullfire still has many uses, even if the other aspects of it are inferior.

[Sahyduna]

Also, Frostburn does not counter this like Protective Charm, Malphas, Hammer's Ult, etc., so Nullfire still has many uses, even if the other aspects of it are inferior.

This. Its still an extremely useful item vs. certain lineups. The thing is it changed from straight core on many heroes to simply situational. It doesnt need any changes - it as just become situational. Like Winglier said, what does need changes is Frostburn - it offers way to much for its cost.

EDIT: S2 could always remove the slow effect when you cast Purge on friendlies ^^. EDIT2: Nvm, I stand correct.

[TreeHorse]

I think a step in the right direction, somewhat in line with the Frostburn changes, would be making it slightly more of a generic item rather than completely unuseable by str/int.

ie change the components to 1 Major totem + Fleetfeet + 1 Dancing Blade, 1,000g recipe(I, II).

6/9 str/int
22/26 agi
No limit on the purge charges, but a higher base cooldown. Buying recipe II increases mana burned and reduces purge cooldown.


BTW it doesn't slow allies when you debuff them.

[tiffany91]

i think it's still an incredible item, but there are a few problems

1. frostburn offers too many stats. in nullfire, you pay 450 gold for the component 6 int piece. for frostburn, you get 5 to all stats for a mere 100 extra gold. this has an easy solution: change the int-piece to a major totem, or reduce null's recipe cost

2. the purge does not remove many magic effects from allies, like stuns

3. the purge does not destroy puzzlebox minions. puzzlebox is a majorly imbalanced item: the minions have a lot of health and armour, drain ridiculous amounts of mana, and the worst part is that you're punished for killing one of them by a 600 true-dmg feedback. pbox could be brought in check with a few nerfs, but i'd like to see buffs to nullfire instead

4. why does it have charges? increase the cooldown, remove the charges, there ya go

5. maybe this is just me but i don't like how it's primarily an agi item. it'd be neat to have a recipe change to 2 broadswords, a major totem and a recipe cost for 36 dmg, 5 to all stats and the aforementioned changes

[Real_Wolf]

There are a few problems with this thread:

1. Comparing it to frostburn, an item that is definitely recieving a nerf. Last I heard there are 9 item changes, and as such with a patch looming on the horizon comparing it to an item that is definitely being changed is bad.

2. It assumes that the purge effect, which is very effective against many people, is too limiting with 8 charges. Yet alot of the time when you use it it is to remove a powerful debuff. The number of heroes who this is effective against is very large, you can purge the dmg buff off of hammer/dark lady, and I think you can purge a number of skills such as succubus's etc aswell. Who wouldn't want to purge the 'dust' or pesti's ulti off you or your teams invis hero.

3. It assumes that the damage it deals is insignificant, while it actually burns mana and as such provides 'more' of a disable than the slow of frostburn. Mana burn is very effective when used against the right targets.

4. It assumes that the item needs survivability, when that is totally not what the item is geared towards. I personally think its a bad idea to give every 'good' dps item survivability aswell. It simply buffs up the carries stupidly, and as many complain in other threads, we don't want the carries getting easily buffed while increasing their dps

[Drasha]

null fire is still an amazing item the debuff removal alone makes it worth buying in some situations. Now that it can be upgraded to get another 8 charges i does not need a change.

[Testknight]

null fire is still an amazing item the debuff removal alone makes it worth buying in some situations. Now that it can be upgraded to get another 8 charges i does not need a change.

This. Mana Burn is a good orb too.

[awayish`]

purge is a better slow and effect than frostburn's slow. it also hard counters some heroes' critical abilities. having charges just highlights this fact and doesn't encourage you to waste them.

the recipe cost though is directly related to the "value" of renewed charges you get. the stat gains are minimal but purge is refreshed for a round.

i think to properly balance the item to the effect of encouraging mid-game clashes, you should give the item a better lategame. it used to be mandatory because it was a part of manta. with a lot of diffusals idling on your dpsers, midgame gank and fighting power is increased.

so really you can buff this item, or make it more used, by replacing the simple recipe upgrade with some higher item upgrade. although this will have the effect of making carries more powerful yet again, when everyone picks the sane number of carries (ie at least 2 or 3) it isn't a big problem.

[Sw4n]

nothing wrong with a situational item

[LegoPirate]

its situational in the same way that nullstone was/is. it counters a select group of heros, and is pretty much outclassed by frostbrand in any other situation.

i know frostbrand is getting a nerf, but i really doubt its gonna be severe enough to make it a worse item then nullfire.

nullfire provides a slight boost in dps, but it really isnt worth almost 4k gold (for the upgraded version). in terms of dps, its effectiveness is almost nil at late game. yes, you get it for the purge, but frostbrand is a much much better item.

you guys really think that its ok the way it is? unless frostbrand is nerfed to pretty much SnY standards, id still pick it over nullfire because the slow has no cooldown, and it provides much needed stats for squishy carries.

i dont think nullfire should give hp stats or anything, but its dps or utility does need to increase, as at the moment its a pretty useless item unless your countering

its an expensive counter item, which counters heros that are always either banned or in the case of hellbringer ban/picked.

i know it counters jeraziah, but hes NEVER seen in comp play, and hellbringer is banned fairly often. honestly, when was the last time you guys saw it in a serious game?

Edit: the manaburn is pretty much useless after 30 mins into the game. it rarely (if ever) makes a difference at all.

compare manaburn to any other orb type effect, like deso or frostburn (even if its nerfed), and its a suppar effect. granted its no longer an orb, and stack with everything, its still almost never seen.

[Real_Wolf]

just cause an item isn't used competitively doesn't mean its bad.

The last time i saw ring of sorcery in competitive Dota was a LOOONG time ago

[LegoPirate]

just cause an item isn't used competitively doesn't mean its bad.

The last time i saw ring of sorcery in competitive Dota was a LOOONG time ago

good thing its not dota.

the game is balanced around comp play, so if an item isnt used in that facet, it should get a buff to make it viable.

[Real_Wolf]

Under that assumption we really need to buff items such as doom bringer, and other items not used competitively that are actually perfectly fine.

Maybe we should wait for frostburn to be nerfed like it will, after which it might be competitively viable to pick nullfire on certain carry heroes

[awayish`]

as a situational item it has its uses, but i don't see a reason to not change things when it can make things better. more widespread nullfire usage will make things more interesting than building geometers or frostburn every single game.

[LegoPirate]

Under that assumption we really need to buff items such as doom bringer, and other items not used competitively that are actually perfectly fine.

Maybe we should wait for frostburn to be nerfed like it will, after which it might be competitively viable to pick nullfire on certain carry heroes

other then doom bringer, which is obviously a justforfun item, what items would those be?

[Real_Wolf]

you want a list?

harkons blade
tablet of command
abyssal skull
Runed Axe (see's fairly little competitive play, carries use dps items that help them not push a lane).
Hellflower (about the same usage as nullfire from what i've seen of high tier games).
Ghost Marchers (in a purely competitive environment no reason not to go steam boots).
Icon of the Goddess
Nullstone (this one does need a bit of a buff, but not much)
Codex (no one uses this competitively, don't have the burst nukers who can really make the most of it when compared to other more useful items)
Brutalizer (no one would ever get this)
Restoration Stone (One maybe two heroes, if that would ever get this)

[donaldtroll]

how about this:

make it so that when all the charges are exhausted it gives +12 extra agility... that way it becomes better when the charges are consumed

[rpg711]

you want a list?

harkons blade
tablet of command
abyssal skull
Runed Axe (see's fairly little competitive play, carries use dps items that help them not push a lane).
Hellflower (about the same usage as nullfire from what i've seen of high tier games).
Ghost Marchers (in a purely competitive environment no reason not to go steam boots).
Icon of the Goddess
Nullstone (this one does need a bit of a buff, but not much)
Codex (no one uses this competitively, don't have the burst nukers who can really make the most of it when compared to other more useful items)
Brutalizer (no one would ever get this)
Restoration Stone (One maybe two heroes, if that would ever get this)
harkons is a situational item only found on puppet
tablet sees use to counter tempest/other channeling heroes
abyssal skull is used all the time on teams with a melee carry, very strong aura
runed axe has gotten much theorycrafting, but it is superior on heroes with blinks or movement speed boost spells just because it allows them to farm like crazy
hellflower is just a fail item
support heroes who don't get grieves gets ENHANCED marchers(wtf are ghost marchers?)
Icon is found on bloodstone rush heroes
Nullstone does counter certain line stuns well, situational item
Codex is a joke item
Brutalizer is crap
Refresher sees use based on lineup

All in all, the items are either fail items in their idea or are just fine.
Try again.


how about this:

make it so that when all the charges are exhausted it gives +12 extra agility... that way it becomes better when the charges are consumedWait, you want it to give 34 agility at level 1? That is more agility than the item worth(34 agility is worth ~3400, item is 3300).

I agree with a buff on this item, and the best one I can think of is to make it replenish 100% of the mana it steals, that would not be overpowered like magebane was because this item is gotten well into mid-game, even if you rush it, you can manage a 17-25 minute one at best, also, none of the components can be bought from side shop.

Another way would be to make purge, ON TOP OF purging every buff on enemies and debuff on allies(that are not un-removable like rupture), to also slow attack speed(it makes sense, if they can't move, they shouldnt be able to attack fast)

[Vulpes]

How about this.. you can buy the Recipe even after Nullfire is already lvl2, and it will replenish the charges (and nothing else). Probably will cost a bit less then.

rpg711: OP was ranting about Nullfire being a situational Item.
Same as Tablet is, so it's a very good comparison actually;
If not to counter Tempest, it sees almost no play at all.

Harkons is just bad, not even found on Puppet.
Abyssal Skull is never build, because Whispering Helm is almost always better and Support got other Stuff to buy.
Runed Axe is actually used, yes.
Hellflower "is a fail Item", now why? Seems like a niche Item for Int Carries / extremely Mana Dependant other Carries (Madman), yet is never seen
They are called Ghost Marchers now, and NO NO NO. Steamboots are the way to go.
And how many SacStone Rush heroes do you still see? It's like.. Defiler. If she goes for it.
Nullstone is almost never bought
Codex.. well, probably.
Brutalizer: Yes it is - your point?
Refresher is used on Tempest, Hellbringer, KotF. Never seen it on anyone else.

So one asks: "Which Items are never used competitively?" and Real_Wolf provides a list,
and you go ahead and say "Well yes it isn't used, but it sucks!". And? That was the point of the List Oo

That's like asking "Which Hero needs a rework to get play on competitive level" and someone says "Zephyr",
and you go and say "No he doesn't need a rework, he just sucks". Yeah, right.. he does, that was my point.

[LegoPirate]

harkons is a situational item only found on puppet
tablet sees use to counter tempest/other channeling heroes
abyssal skull is used all the time on teams with a melee carry, very strong aura
runed axe has gotten much theorycrafting, but it is superior on heroes with blinks or movement speed boost spells just because it allows them to farm like crazy
hellflower is just a fail item
support heroes who don't get grieves gets ENHANCED marchers(wtf are ghost marchers?)
Icon is found on bloodstone rush heroes
Nullstone does counter certain line stuns well, situational item
Codex is a joke item
Brutalizer is crap
Refresher sees use based on lineup

All in all, the items are either fail items in their idea or are just fine.
Try again.



QFT

granted, hellflower could prolly use a buff too, hes pretty much spot on.

[Real_Wolf]

lol, he just explained the reasons items are good.

Just like how I exlpained that nullfire is good.

However the majority of those items don't see competitive play.

Support heroes do not get enhanced marchers for the same reason they don't get phase boots in Dota. The +10 stat benefit is greater than the ms + phase for support heroes, especially since they don't farm much.

Going on, tablet "see's use", yet is barely used competitively, thus the point
harkons is only found on puppet, so its situational, sort of like nullfire?
abyssal skull is barely seen because 15% base damage, assuming 100 agility, is only 15 damage. Symbol of rage is a better item to build towards cause it allowed creep stacking etc. Abyssal skull is an item that seems made for support heroes to carry to help their carry, yet nomes is better in mana regen and survivability for the support.
Runed Axe has theory crafting, but most carries in competitive games do not use it because the game does not last that long to the point that it makes a significant enough difference. It also provides no survivability and pure +dmg, no stats.
Icon is foundo n bloodstone, but not many heroes use bloodstone now. So its a barely bought item. May I attract your attention to the "If its not used competitively it is bad" argument made by legopirate.
Nullstone does counter certain stuns well, and is situational. Yet isn't that exactly what nullfire is?
Codex is a joke item excepting a fwe heroes where burst is very useful, but if its not used competitively, lets buff it right legopirate?
Same with brutalizer
Same with refreshere (seriously, only two maybe 3 heroes would get this)

[LegoPirate]

lol, he just explained the reasons items are good.

Just like how I exlpained that nullfire is good.

However the majority of those items don't see competitive play.

Support heroes do not get enhanced marchers for the same reason they don't get phase boots in Dota. The +10 stat benefit is greater than the ms + phase for support heroes, especially since they don't farm much.

Going on, tablet "see's use", yet is barely used competitively, thus the point
harkons is only found on puppet, so its situational, sort of like nullfire?
abyssal skull is barely seen because 15% base damage, assuming 100 agility, is only 15 damage. Symbol of rage is a better item to build towards cause it allowed creep stacking etc. Abyssal skull is an item that seems made for support heroes to carry to help their carry, yet nomes is better in mana regen and survivability for the support.
Runed Axe has theory crafting, but most carries in competitive games do not use it because the game does not last that long to the point that it makes a significant enough difference. It also provides no survivability and pure +dmg, no stats.
Icon is foundo n bloodstone, but not many heroes use bloodstone now. So its a barely bought item. May I attract your attention to the "If its not used competitively it is bad" argument made by legopirate.
Nullstone does counter certain stuns well, and is situational. Yet isn't that exactly what nullfire is?
Codex is a joke item excepting a fwe heroes where burst is very useful, but if its not used competitively, lets buff it right legopirate?
Same with brutalizer
Same with refreshere (seriously, only two maybe 3 heroes would get this)

you dont get it.

ive yet to see a nullfire built in a high level game of any sort (scrim/ih/etc) after frostbrand came out.

codex has a bad concept unless you go for team dagon

barely used means its still viable.

i have yet to see nullfire period.

[Rice_RockeT]

IMO the only change it needs is to retain the charges once its upgraded. That way you don't need to use all the charges from level 1 blade before upgrading it to level 2. (e.g. if you have 3 chages left on a level 1 nullfire and you upgrade it, then your level 2 nullfire will start with 11 charges)

[Real_Wolf]

thats a good change chow, i'd quite like that.

ANd legopirate, yes, you haven't, because frostburn is FAR too good an item in every way.

As has been stated before.

WAIT for the nerf of frostburn so you can see diffusal being used again, because at the moment no one bothers to counter heroes like jeraziah by building it I'm not suprised you don't see it, its much easier to ban jeraziah than to farm up this item and use it

[LegoPirate]

thats a good change chow, i'd quite like that.

ANd legopirate, yes, you haven't, because frostburn is FAR too good an item in every way.

As has been stated before.

WAIT for the nerf of frostburn so you can see diffusal being used again, because at the moment no one bothers to counter heroes like jeraziah by building it I'm not suprised you don't see it, its much easier to ban jeraziah than to farm up this item and use it

like i said, unless they nerf frostbrand to the point that its as bad as sange/hack once was, then maybe, if it keeps its fairly low price and slow on attack with no cooldown, then not a chance.

[BlueFire]

What if you made it combine all 3 of the +10 items? Total cost being 3k. Then give it infinite charges while only slightly buffing the cd. Give it the mana drain of the lvl 2 nullfire. It'll be used quite frequently I think.
-BlueFire

[awayish`]

thats a good change chow, i'd quite like that.

ANd legopirate, yes, you haven't, because frostburn is FAR too good an item in every way.

As has been stated before.

WAIT for the nerf of frostburn so you can see diffusal being used again, because at the moment no one bothers to counter heroes like jeraziah by building it I'm not suprised you don't see it, its much easier to ban jeraziah than to farm up this item and use it

not many image heroes = no diffusal on melee. ranged heroes always go manta before diffusal. it's not going to be used regardless of what happens to frostburn.

[rpg711]

you dont get it.

ive yet to see a nullfire built in a high level game of any sort (scrim/ih/etc) after frostbrand came out.

codex has a bad concept unless you go for team dagon

barely used means its still viable.

i have yet to see nullfire period.
Exactly, just because it can instantly kill malphas doesn't make it situational, the fact that it does NOTHING else except slow(obviously used by a good player, some crazy stuff could happen like purging self out of many debuffs), frostburn is just so much better in every single way, even looking at stats only. There is no way possible to nerf frostburn(while keeping the concept of 100% proc slowing orb) to make it as useless of an item that nullfire is.

PS: Instant killing malphas is hardly useful because hellbringer is picked for that retarded 1 second 1200 range 1200 aoe stun that stops any hero through bkb, the infernal itself is nice, sure, but the effects of the ultimate outweights that. I have not seen many actual good players die to the malphas.

I would barely say that this item is even situational, if you want a purge, you could get accursed. If you want a slow, you could get frostburn/frostwolf.

Main problems:
The mana burn is negligable
It doesn't "steal" the mana, it just destroys it.
It counters all of 2 heroes, for its price, this is hardly justified.

TL;DR: The more you think about it, the more useless of an item it seems, especially when compared with the Frostburn CONCEPT(i'm not even talking about numbers, as long as they keep this concept, there is no way nullfire will even see the light of day without a buff). When phantom lancer sees the light of newerth, this would change to being the core item of 1 hero, but even then you would also build frostburn afterwards because images apply most attack modifiers in hon.

[Real_Wolf]

Nullfire is better than frostburn if frostburn does not provide the survivability it currently does in relation to its damage output.

The reason frostburn is better is because of the insane amount of damage it puts out while giving such a large amount of health.

As for 'getting accursed' if you want a purge, cause accursd can totally remove jeraziahs charm, or hammerstorms ultimate, or dark ladies IAS+dmg, or madmans ultimate, etc

[tanis1]

So I remember this being suggested awhile back, but what's wrong with allowing Nullfire to continue to have "charge-only" upgrades beyond level 2?

Or alternatively, raise the upgrade limit to 4 and have some minor stat boosts like Riftshards does. People will be more inclined to use the charges, but at the same time, they're not getting it for free.

And yeah, Chow's suggestion is quite reasonable, regardless of what else gets done.

[Bastion]

What if you made it combine all 3 of the +10 items? Total cost being 3k. Then give it infinite charges while only slightly buffing the cd. Give it the mana drain of the lvl 2 nullfire. It'll be used quite frequently I think.
-BlueFireThis is exactly what null needs and nothing else.

[Urizen]

How about the purge effect also burning the users mana bar to 50% of its max (if they have over 50% mana and only on enemies and no damage combust component attached) this makes it more useful than JUST those listed but a good item against any hero

On int it reduces their long term damage payload as they need to conserve/regen more and on str/agi their pool is already small and this limits their ability usage

[crappular]

How about the purge effect also burning a flat 50% mana off the target (only on enemies and no damage combust component attached) this makes it more useful than JUST those listed but a good item against any hero

on int it reduces their long term damage payload as they need to conserve more and on str/agi their pool is already small and this limits their ability usage
Quite possibly the worst idea I've ever heard. So two heroes get it, one of the enemy heroes is reduced to an autoattacker. You would literally have every single hero in the game doing their best to farm one.

[Urizen]

Sorry, it wasn't clearly stated, it simply sets your "current mana" to 50% of its max (that is if you have over 50% mana, otherwise it does its normal effect only

so it wouldnt stack if cast by multiple people

[tanis1]

Still, such an effect would be downright crippling to a lot of heroes who depend on every bit of mana they've got to do their job, while it would have little to no effect on others who don't care nearly as much. It sounds more like a hero ability than an item ability, tbh - and a possibly unbalancing one at that.

[Consummate]

Frostburn is the problem imo..

I always saw Frostburn as a DPS Skadi, its way too good for its cost.

[Pandabro]

I think items like this are well balanced in their niche. It's like Dust/bound eye, you wouldn't bother buying it unless the opposing team has a invis hero or Shroud.

:jera: is banned/picked often in competitive matches so I'd say a cost reduction to this item wouldn't be a bad thing. Basically nerfs :jera: in competitive play (where people actually buy counter items) and makes the item by itself more appealing (without the presence of a :jera: ).

[LegoPirate]

I think items like this are well balanced in their niche. It's like Dust/bound eye, you wouldn't bother buying it unless the opposing team has a invis hero or Shroud.

:jera: is banned/picked often in competitive matches so I'd say a cost reduction to this item wouldn't be a bad thing. Basically nerfs :jera: in competitive play (where people actually buy counter items) and makes the item by itself more appealing (without the presence of a :jera: ).

thing is, jera is ALWAYS banned, so it never sees use.

[crappular]

I'm not going to argue the overpoweredness of the new HnS, but it still was a pretty poor balance decision, seeing as how Frostwolf existed.
And ^, that's the point, to nerf a hero by buffing something that counters it. Then perhaps he wouldn't see as much banning?

[Smilie]

Nullfire is nice on a scout.. you vanish, and hit the users 4 times, burning 80-90 mana, and do the same amount in extra dmg. IMO you pay 3500 for 80-90 dmg/extra each 6 seconds..

[Urizen]

The damage is half the mana burn and applied as physical damage so its more like 40-50 damage

What about Nullfire purge effect adding a debuff to whoever it is cast on doubling the mana cost of spells for 5 seconds

[tanis1]

Changing or otherwise buffing the on-use effect of Nullfire is ridiculously stupid. It does its job perfectly fine right now.

Again, the only thing worth changing with Nullfire is to allow unused charges to carry over on upgrade, and perhaps to allow more upgrades.

[ouTPut`]

Instead of remaking a perfectly balanced and good item because S2 felt the need to buff S&Y - they should remake S&Y completely.

[rpg711]

I'm not going to argue the overpoweredness of the new HnS, but it still was a pretty poor balance decision, seeing as how Frostwolf existed.
And ^, that's the point, to nerf a hero by buffing something that counters it. Then perhaps he wouldn't see as much banning?
Nope, the thing about Jere is that he not only has a spell that is better than Shrunken Head, he also has the spell that makes your power level go over 9000 for a while. You can only purge the charm, and once he ults it will end by the time your purge cools down(and your entire team would be dead)

[Proph3t1]

you want a list?

harkons blade
tablet of command
abyssal skull
Runed Axe (see's fairly little competitive play, carries use dps items that help them not push a lane).
Hellflower (about the same usage as nullfire from what i've seen of high tier games).
Ghost Marchers (in a purely competitive environment no reason not to go steam boots).
Icon of the Goddess
Nullstone (this one does need a bit of a buff, but not much)
Codex (no one uses this competitively, don't have the burst nukers who can really make the most of it when compared to other more useful items)
Brutalizer (no one would ever get this)
Restoration Stone (One maybe two heroes, if that would ever get this)





Runed Axe is exceptionally good on Madman, TDL, Magebane, and pretty much most melee carries. Axe is alot stronger here than in DotA for a plethora of reasons.



Oh, and Harkon's is really good against armor based teams like any team with a Plague Rider.

[crappular]

Nope, the thing about Jere is that he not only has a spell that is better than Shrunken Head, he also has the spell that makes your power level go over 9000 for a while. You can only purge the charm, and once he ults it will end by the time your purge cools down(and your entire team would be dead)
Ok, so purgestick doesn't counter Jeraziah. I'll go make sure to tell DOTA pros that, because we all know how much worse they are than HON players.

[china]

Nullfire with CD + no charges = people buying it.

[Hat_Truck]

F8 you don't think that would be overpowered? I mean generally, yes, if a good player is buying for a certain reason (Jeraziah, Malphas, Hammerstorm, etc.), he probably isn't going to use all 16 charges before the game is over anyhow.

However, if you could just use it whenever it was on cooldown, you don't think that would be a little too powerful? Purge is someone's ultimate..

[china]

F8 you don't think that would be overpowered? I mean generally, yes, if a good player is buying for a certain reason (Jeraziah, Malphas, Hammerstorm, etc.), he probably isn't going to use all 16 charges before the game is over anyhow.

However, if you could just use it whenever it was on cooldown, you don't think that would be a little too powerful? Purge is someone's ultimate..

High CD? Ala 45 seconds or more? Could be a different number. Requires testing.

Eul's was obsolete in that it had charges. Still think charges are dumb.

Mana cost acts as an inhibitor as well.

P.S. Electrician is worthless lol.

[Hat_Truck]

Good points. Considering how powerful Frostburn has become, I guess it's hard to deny Nullfire a similar buff as well. I think the cooldown would have to go up significantly though, to compensate for the loss of charges.

Yes, Electrician is rather bad, but it's not because of his ultimate (in my opinion, it's because he's a tank with no reason to be attacked).

[awayish`]

given the amount of buffs that can be purged, a no charge nullfire would be really good. even if you just use it once per engagement, that's a lot of aspd/dmg buffs going away. you can even use it as a free accursed. however, the slowing effect seems too powerful if there is no charge limit.

[Saucery]

The main thing keeping me away from Nullfire isn't the proc its the rubbish stats. FB gives you alot more survivability.

[ooVsaviour]

This thread shouldn't exist, imo or at least it is in the wrong direction. There is nothing wrong with nullfire.
There is something wrong with frost (it is too strong).

Therefore, buffing null to be stronger is a no no
fixing frost is the answer

Don't break something that is fine. It gives as much agi as a eaglehorn.

[dric]

.... This is lame. Nullfire doesn't need to be buffed. It's already strong as it is. Stop whining about the charges and use it wisely instead of just spamming for slow..

Buffing Nullfire will make NH go crazy as his 1st item.

[uhhhahhhohah]

how about making it similar to sacstone: if you are in a certain range of a kill you gain 1 charge to the purge, every 1 charge grants 0.5/1/1.5/2 extra mana burn also, if you die you lose half charges/1 charge??

[china]

.... This is lame. Nullfire doesn't need to be buffed. It's already strong as it is. Stop whining about the charges and use it wisely instead of just spamming for slow..

Buffing Nullfire will make NH go crazy as his 1st item.

Really? Gotta be flammatory and assumptuous too?

So why was Eul's changed to not have charges as well?

Overall, 'charges' on items without being able to -refresh- those charges makes absolutely no sense.

[Real_Wolf]

yes, especially since the older diffusal blad eused to be used to make manta, which meant that as soon as you were done with charges you made manta.

Now you burn the charges and then you've got an item that does full mana burn damage of 64? but thats about it. Its not really worth it for what it gives after the charges are gone, but while it has charges its a brilliant item. If game goes too long you just end up with a filled slot though

[awayish`]

just make a new item to upgrade it into imo. more items = more shiny stuff = more goodness

[crappular]

yes, especially since the older diffusal blad eused to be used to make manta, which meant that as soon as you were done with charges you made manta.

Now you burn the charges and then you've got an item that does full mana burn damage of 64? but thats about it. Its not really worth it for what it gives after the charges are gone, but while it has charges its a brilliant item. If game goes too long you just end up with a filled slot though
To be fair, if you're just using it to counter specific heroes, it's fairly unlikely that you'll burn all charges two times, unless the game goes on for an inordinately long amount of time.
I do agree that charges are kind of a downer, though. Maybe let it be refreshed more than one time?

[LegoPirate]

yes, especially since the older diffusal blad eused to be used to make manta, which meant that as soon as you were done with charges you made manta.

Now you burn the charges and then you've got an item that does full mana burn damage of 64? but thats about it. Its not really worth it for what it gives after the charges are gone, but while it has charges its a brilliant item. If game goes too long you just end up with a filled slot though

it does like 36 mana burn at lvl 2.

[tanis1]

upgrading the mana burn damage to 100% isn't really gonna do that much to make this a better item imo

but i guess it's a good thing at least that S2 is looking into buffing the item somehow

[lumino`]

The biggest problem with nullfire imho is the limited amount of charges. Removing the charges will go a LONG way to making it viable. You can make the item more expensive, or the cooldown a bit higher to compensate.

Limited charges on an item = bad concept. There is a very good reason why windthingie (euls scepter) have been remade after it wasnt a reagent for totem of kuldra (guinsoo sheepstick), and since nullfire is not a perequisite of geometers bane (mantastyle) anymore, it should be changed accordingly.

[tanis1]

If removing the charges were the only change to Nullfire, at the expense of a long CD (45s? 60s?), that would be pretty good.

[Suwako]

I'm sad the constant hero brought up with Nullfire is Jeraziah when it also provides more than 'decent' utility against strong heroes like Hammerstorm, Madman and Dark Lady, and the less strong hero: Slither (less so in next patch however).

The presence of Nullfire against these heroes is incredible and as such, striking a fair balance for it to improve it is hard, a longer cooldown would make it far less useful against any of these heroes in teamfights, especially Dark Lady who doesn't have her main strengths in her ult and on far shorter cooldowns.

Would I want to see Nullfire be improved somehow? Sure, but how? I don't know.
A removal of charges would be one of many steps in a nice direction, however it brings the issue of balance which most would like to see come in the case of a longer cooldown, which would drastically lower it's actual usefulness; on demand purge of buff/debuff alike for when it matters. Sure it would make the actual use mean more, but it can also mean Nullfire now saves less lives, or nets less kills, depending on how you use it, it would in the end to me, look like a nerf.

Perhaps a slight nerf to the power of the actual purge could be done instead? A less drastic slow (instead of 80% and slowly regaining, maybe a set 30% slow for the duration) and no longer an instant kill on summons but instead a set damage that is high enough to kill lesser ones (Tempest elementals) but nowhere close to 1shot Malphas for example.

Or lastly, just let the charges be refillable by a somewhat cheap recipe past lv2 of the item if more stats on it is not desired (500g maybe?).

[tanis1]

Removing the charges and increasing the CD makes it not as hard of a counter against the heroes it currently counters, while making the item itself more flexible for other uses (i.e. purging buffs in general, slow).

[Mantis_Blade]

Plz make it stackable with Magebane's Mana Combustion.

[Jazriel]

Except for those clutch situations.

What percentage would you give it? 10%? At low levels that's nothing, at higher levels it's too much.

10% isn't a lot late game. A farmed carry can do what, nearly 300 damage? Honestly I'd say like 30% of the hero's damage as feedback.

Something like 5% of the enemy hero's max mana might also work.

[InvalidCola]

I don't think nullfire blade needs a buff, but it would be cool with a way of getting more charges... allow people to refill the charges by buying the recipe as many times as you wish (so basicly you could refill it 1000 times if you had the gold).. maybe reduce the recipe cost slightly and remove any other upgrades it gets from extra recipe buys (to prevent people from ending up with 500 manaburn :p - that would be insanely expensive though, so dunno if it's a problem)... you could also reduce the number of max charges so you would have to buy the recipe more often... I know this might make the item too good against heroes like jereziah or hellbringer, but things could always be done to compensate - I just think I would like it better if you could always refresh your charges..

[Real_Wolf]

there we go, minor buff to the item, but now we wait and see if its enough

[Jazriel]

I still think the mana burn it does should be based on the damage being done with an attack. Late game when characters have over 5 mana regen a sec and pools of over 1.5k mana, 36 is a drop in the bucket.

[Est0]

I still think the mana burn it does should be based on the damage being done with an attack. Late game when characters have over 5 mana regen a sec and pools of over 1.5k mana, 36 is a drop in the bucket.


Except for those clutch situations.

What percentage would you give it? 10%? At low levels that's nothing, at higher levels it's too much.