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MacroHard
12-30-2009, 10:04 PM
Definition of "Damage Coefficient" (by Malle):


Well, it hasn't been used completely consequently in all of Mechanics, which is why I labelled my graphs damage increase factor instead.

Schizofriend uses it just as I use damage increase factor, namely the coefficient that which you would multiply your original damage by to get the increase in damage you get by changing something. Or, in mathematical terms:
Damage_after = (1 + DamageCoefficient) * Damage_beforeHowever, I feel that this isn't correct terminology, since a coefficient is a synonym of factor. If used in this way, the damage coefficient is the factor with which you would multiply your original damage by to get the new damage. Or, in mathematical terms:
Damage_after = DamageCoefficient * Damage_beforeIf we limit us to either of these two interpretations, then it is often fairly clear from graphs such as these which of the two meanings is used, but in other cases it can be harder. For consistency, I would prefer if people used the latter definition of damage coefficient, but it's not that big of a deal to me.

Damage Coefficient Formula (Credits to pugi):


f(x)=if(x+a>0, 50/(50+3*x+3*a), 2-47^(-x-a)*50^(x+a)) * if(x<0, -1/(-2+50^x*47^(-x)), 1+(3/50)*x)Where f(x) = Damage Coefficient, x = Initial Armor and a = Armor Gain


Table:
http://i54.tinypic.com/34pdent.png

Full:
http://i56.tinypic.com/jq14zp.png

Zoomed:
http://i55.tinypic.com/3535mo0.png

Malle1
12-31-2009, 09:42 AM
They look correct. I extended it to negative armor values:



http://hon.mikaelsunde.se/mechanics-damagecoefficients-1.62.0-full.png

http://hon.mikaelsunde.se/mechanics-damagecoefficients-1.62.0-zoom.png

EDIT: For those who wanted to know, I use Microsoft Office Excel 2007
EDIT: fail @me; added magic armor reduction from Harkon's Blade

n00binator1
12-31-2009, 11:44 AM
There's a typo in the legend, Riftshards 4 is x2.4

Snow_blind
12-31-2009, 11:48 AM
So riftshards > any other physical dps item(not counting for the +dmg) provided enemy has >11 armor(which almost everyone does)?

Also, I saw somewhere that riftshards lvl 3 is the most efficient dmg item/gold.

If both these statements are correct, that means Riftshards is the way to go as your first DPS item. Add to the fact that the most costly component is only 1200 and 950 upgrades 3 times, it beats everything else in comparison.

Malle1
12-31-2009, 12:03 PM
There's a typo in the legend, Riftshards 4 is x2.4Fixed.

Somnolent49
12-31-2009, 03:32 PM
So riftshards > any other physical dps item(not counting for the +dmg) provided enemy has >11 armor(which almost everyone does)?

Also, I saw somewhere that riftshards lvl 3 is the most efficient dmg item/gold.

If both these statements are correct, that means Riftshards is the way to go as your first DPS item. Add to the fact that the most costly component is only 1200 and 950 upgrades 3 times, it beats everything else in comparison.

It's important to remember that Shieldbreaker increases all physical damage dealt to the target, not just the autoattacks from the player who owns it.


It looks as if you missed the base 5.5 magic armor on heroes, presuming that you want to take that into account. I extended it to negative armor values:


Harkon's Blade has an effect which reduces magic armor by 5, so a player with base magic armor would be reduced to 0.5

crayze
12-31-2009, 03:53 PM
Holy crap did Malle just get bested :O?

Malle1
12-31-2009, 04:13 PM
Harkon's Blade has an effect which reduces magic armor by 5, so a player with base magic armor would be reduced to 0.5Oh yes, look at that. I guess this goes to show I should play the game more D:

Fixed. And then of course the graphs look as if they are identical.

Trysaeder
12-31-2009, 08:42 PM
How come my excel graphs don't look as pretty as yours?
Mind writing a guide?

Malle1
12-31-2009, 10:00 PM
If you upload your graphs or your worksheets (or somehow give me them) I might be able to say what I do differently.

ElementUser
12-31-2009, 10:02 PM
I'll move this to Guides & Lists :O

MintPanda1
02-09-2010, 11:33 AM
why is riftshards a perfectly horizontal line? shouldn't its damage factor increase as armor goes negative (curving or at least increasing the gradient?).

That said, what is the definition of the damage coefficient?

Sadhe
02-09-2010, 11:46 AM
Critical strikes increase your DPS by a percentage.

MintPanda1
02-09-2010, 11:52 AM
can you define "damage coefficient"?

Sadhe
02-09-2010, 12:29 PM
Multiply your DPS by the damage coefficient (maybe increase it by 1 first) for your DPS with that item.

Normally a damage coefficient of 1 means that you deal 100% damage to the target.

MintPanda1
02-09-2010, 08:21 PM
Can you give me a certain definition? Malle?

ElementUser
02-09-2010, 08:40 PM
MintPanda if you read Malle's y-axis on the graph (or just the graph title), it is simply just the added damage factor you get on top of your damage.

For instance, Riftshards level 4 grants a 28% damage increase factor. (20% chance to crit for 2.4x damage)

0.8*100% + 0.2*240% = 128% = 28% damage increase (from 100%)

Other stuff like Shieldbreaker and Harkon's Blade's damage increase factors vary with the value of the target's armor.

So just think of "damage coefficient" as "damage factor increase". It's easier that way if it works for you.

Malle1
02-10-2010, 07:23 AM
Can you give me a certain definition? Malle?Well, it hasn't been used completely consequently in all of Mechanics, which is why I labelled my graphs damage increase factor instead.

Schizofriend uses it just as I use damage increase factor, namely the coefficient that which you would multiply your original damage by to get the increase in damage you get by changing something. Or, in mathematical terms:

Damage_after = (1 + DamageCoefficient) * Damage_before
However, I feel that this isn't correct terminology, since a coefficient is a synonym of factor. If used in this way, the damage coefficient is the factor with which you would multiply your original damage by to get the new damage. Or, in mathematical terms:

Damage_after = DamageCoefficient * Damage_before

If we limit us to either of these two interpretations, then it is often fairly clear from graphs such as these which of the two meanings is used, but in other cases it can be harder. For consistency, I would prefer if people used the latter definition of damage coefficient, but it's not that big of a deal to me.

MintPanda1
02-10-2010, 11:01 AM
Thanks that helps a lot more. Also I am aware that Riftshards' crit chance is only 10% now isn't it?

ElementUser
02-10-2010, 12:38 PM
Thanks that helps a lot more. Also I am aware that Riftshards' crit chance is only 10% now isn't it?

Only level 1 Riftshards is.

MacroHard
05-07-2010, 04:21 PM
So riftshards > any other physical dps item(not counting for the +dmg) provided enemy has >11 armor(which almost everyone does)?

Also, I saw somewhere that riftshards lvl 3 is the most efficient dmg item/gold.

If both these statements are correct, that means Riftshards is the way to go as your first DPS item. Add to the fact that the most costly component is only 1200 and 950 upgrades 3 times, it beats everything else in comparison.

Savage Mace > Riftshards. http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=115053

SnowToad
10-21-2010, 12:56 AM
Nice graphs, the thing that's misleading is the actual damage provided by the items.
The graphs make Harkons look like the clear winner, it 'amplifies' your damage the most for most realistic values of armour, however Harkons doesn't give much damage at all (esp for non-int) so you don't have much damage to BE amplified, resulting in a lower DPS.

Would it be possible to factor in the damage provided by the items to see how they compare in terms of DPS/ or damage/hit varying with armour?

Dawnbringer
09-21-2011, 10:52 AM
Savage Mace > Riftshards. http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=115053
Once you break a certain point (iirc its something like 200 damage) then riftshards will out damage savage mace.

However, once you start factoring in things like evasion things get a bit wonky since Savage mace > Most other damage items vs evasion.

MacroHard
09-21-2011, 11:54 AM
Once you break a certain point (iirc its something like 200 damage) then riftshards will out damage savage mace.

However, once you start factoring in things like evasion things get a bit wonky since Savage mace > Most other damage items vs evasion.

The break point is based on damage and attack speed. The previous link didn't show my graph. Here's a better one: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=1577158&postcount=51

For example, 175 damage and 150 attack speed favors Riftshards for pure dps per gold cost. However it's hard to put a value on truestrike and ministun (which is very valuable).

Dawnbringer
09-22-2011, 09:47 AM
Yeah, Savage mace is generally the better pickup since riftshards gives you pure damage and nothing else.

`Lucky``
09-22-2011, 02:52 PM
true strike will mostly only come into effect if they have a wingbow of snake talisman.

the mini stun however will scale with your attack speed and at a certain you will be able to almost constantly flinch an opponent causing them to stutter step or miss their attack animations.

MacroHard
09-22-2011, 03:35 PM
True strike is very useful for attacking uphill, which can be the case in every match. =)

MacroHard
10-10-2011, 12:41 AM
Table:
http://i54.tinypic.com/34pdent.png

Full:
http://i56.tinypic.com/jq14zp.png

Zoomed:
http://i55.tinypic.com/3535mo0.png

ElementUser
10-10-2011, 11:21 AM
Updated, you have full control of the original post as well! :)