blacksmith nerfed too hard

[H]

Blacksmith:
- Reworked how Chaotic Flames interacts with Fireball
* Lv.1: 25% chance for a 2x cast
* Lv.2: 40% chance for at least a 2x cast, with a 20% chance to become a 3x cast
* Lv.3: 50% chance for at least a 2x cast, with a 25% chance to become at least a 3x cast or 12.5% chance to become a 4x cast
* Chaotic Flames increases the mana cost of Fireball by 30/80/110
- Chaotic Flames is no longer boosted by Staff of the Master

Major nerf in this patch. Sure he was a bit imba last patch, but this is over the top. His not worth playing in his current state.

Discuss.

[Guile]

wasnt a nerf.

[Rippsy]

I think they are trying to remove some of the bursty / lucky streaks and make him a more reliable character with is fair enough; if these nerfs do underpower him im sure they can increase him gradually to be more balanced.

That being said; he's been changed in DotA recently as well hasn't he? I'm not keeping up with DotA patches so thats just hear-say :S

I remember S2 saying they wanted HoN to be on Par wih DotA when it goes retail, surely most balance changes to DotA heroes should follow the DotA balances upto that point?

[Geostigma]

Well, they should just give him more reliable damage, instead of having him sometimes turn a hero into ashes and the other times barely burning his skin.

[Grimkor]

I was discussing this with a friend last night who rather enjoys playing Blacksmith and the same points came up. While his lucky bursts have been removed in return he has been given more reliable damage, which in my opinion is almost always an advantage.

Saying that it was funny watching him insta-gib heroes every so often :p

[Dustbin]

The no staff of the master and mana increase seems kinda over the top, I prefer the new chaotic flames still though.

[Spikeo]

its like in dota now and its better that way

the manacost increase is necessary for balance

[Grimkor]

The no staff of the master and mana increase seems kinda over the top, I prefer the new chaotic flames still though.

I'm not 100% on this so feel free to correct me but didn't Staff of the Masters only increase the proc chance from something like 20% to 30%? It would seem kinda redundant and/or imbalanced with the new layout for the Chaotic Flames.

[hackman5000]

I'm not sure if any of you guys played the DotA Ogre Mage when he got this change, but it was a huge buff, so much in fact that they lowered the numbers in the following version. Most of the time my (and I'm sure many others) luck was so bad in a game, I wouldn't see more than 2-3 multicasts in the entire game, and most of these games I got a scepter at about the halfway point.

This change brings his nuke from being a game of russian roulette to something more constant. 50% chance to hit for 550 is nothing to laugh about. Not to mention this allows you to build other items instead of requiring you to get a staff of the master to be useful.

BTW staff increased the chance from 20% to 30% and added an extra cast. The problem is you still have to roll that 30% to get the benefit.

[ClownFoot]

im probably going against popular opinion here, and im definitely not skilled enough for my opinion to be worth much, but this looks like a good change that could potentially make him even stronger. the mana cost increase is a cheap shot to the nuts, for sure, but it looks like his fireballs will be hitting for extra damage a lot more often

[MrFixx]

I'll miss those 5x insta-kills and the laughs that follow, but overall it's a very good balance change for him.

The fact you don't have to go straight to Staff of Masters just to be as effective as other heroes at the same point of the game and can focus on building other options makes him more interesting to play.

[Krangry]

I like the balance change, You would by lying if you said this made him a useless hero. Just makes it so u cant LOL 1shot a agi carry.

[Fest1]

The change is fine. It makes multicast more of a certainty and allows BS to play support more. 1 shotting agi heroes was kind of ****ing dumb.

[Paragon]

It also means that you don't have to farm Staff of the Masters for half the game just to be effective. There are a lot of new build opportunities for him now. Dagon? Codex? Totem of Kuldra?

[Shai1]

I personally like the change, it makes him less luck based.

[Kien2]

Ofc he's overnerfed but they mindlessly copy dumbfrog's changes, so deal with it.

[kingcomrade]

It was a good change in Dota and a good change here.

major nerf
You fail at analysis.

[Volshok]

Is his multicast reflected to mirror Ogre's as well? Last time I played him Multicast only increased the damage, not the stun time.

[twincannon]

Friend just went 14 and 1 last night with blacksmith or something, carried our team basically. Said he liked the multicast mechanics even better because it's more reliable. Have yet to try it myself but I definitely like the fact it's less random.

Was funny he bought a staff by accident though. :P

[BodyHammer]

Much needed, and much more reliable to make him more of a pick you can count on, rather than just a joke pick you pray you can get lucky with.


Ofc he's overnerfed but they mindlessly copy dumbfrog's changes, so deal with it.

Baseless childish insults based on a complete lack of reading comprehension or understanding of game mechanics. Noted.

[Guile]

well maybe its like the old ogre magi where lucky wasnt involved at all so maybe some super nerd can figure out the timer on multi casts and rape? (anyone remember the ogre magi with 50/50 multi casts ina game ROFL)

[midget3]

Yes, this does make Blacksmith correspond more with DotA's Ogre Magi; However, there is one key thing that Ogre has which Blacksmith doesn't: Ogre's multicasts stun for longer periods of time. Fireblasts are used as damage, to be sure, but also as a potent disable.

[Vodka]

When the same change happened in DotA I remember people complaining about him being too OP in games because he'd get a 2x or 3x every single time he used fireball, but that was probably due to WC3's funky chance mechanism. In any case, this was a good change.

[Wrathmont]

Its a buff, not a nerf

[SWARM_THEM]

if blacksmith's ult is the same as the current DOTA ogre magi's ult (i can't remember the exact numbers of ogre's ult), then blacksmith just got a huge buff.

[IntErlIdEr]

The balance process, as much as the word implies, is formed by a series of meassures of weights and counterweights that is always targetted to provide the best possible solution to over or under powered heroes.

~IntEr

[ubercrombie]

It was a good change in Dota and a good change here.

You fail at analysis.


LOL b/c you gave such insightful analysis? Hello black pot.

You want some analysis? Here we go:
Everyone who says this patch made BS more reliable, you're kind of right in that there is less variation in the amount of damage you do. However, BS was a perfectly reliable character before. A fast, targeted, 275 dmg stun on a 6 sec cd is the definition of a reliable skill. It's good for ganks, good for saving allies etc. Multicasts are just gravy. People who say that's not reliable are just noobs looking to rack up 20 hero kills in a pub game.
Second, it was definitely a nerf in that the expected value of damage done by each fireball dropped by about 100 points with this patch (assuming old BS with staff).
Third, all the noobs who say they didn't like the old blacksmith b/c they would only get 2-3 multicasts in an entire game, even with staff of the master, you're all full of **** (a couple of u in this thread). Do the math. If you get staff and then go on to 30 fireballs (conservative number for any game you hit level 20 or higher given the short cd and bigger mana pool) then:
P(exactly 3 MC, given 30 casts) = 30choose3*(0.3)^3*(0.7)^27 = .0072

Basically you have a 0.72% chance of only getting 3 multicasts in a game with staff. So yeah ur full of ****. If you go without the staff, then this probability rises to 7.85%. that would be much more believable.

[nicosharp]

I'll miss those 5x insta-kills and the laughs that follow, but overall it's a very good balance change for him.

The fact you don't have to go straight to Staff of Masters just to be as effective as other heroes at the same point of the game and can focus on building other options makes him more interesting to play.
I'll miss those 5x insta-kills too - People used to yell at me for picking blacksmith over other heroes in draft, and then proceed to rickroll their team due to the ridiculous insta-killing ability of 5x procs with Staff.

[MrJag]

I've been playing a lot of blacksmith and think the changes are a minor buff overall.

The only part that feels like a nurf is the removal of the master staff from his build. I have a feeling that the 6k gold spent elsewhere will make him just as strong though, but I haven't had the time to find the right replacement item(s) yet.

[SuperStanos]

A sac stone or a sheepstick.

[Maelstrom2]

It's definitely a buff, although not necessarily one that's beneficial to Blacksmith. What I mean is that you're not the one who's going to be going around and killing heroes, you're going to be participating in ganks and buffing your teammates so THEY can get kills (what an int hero should be doing late game, anyways). It's sort of the thing you expected him to be doing all along.

But I'll certainly miss one-shotting enemy agi heroes with Staff. ;-;

[FiNGERS]

This guy was not serious when he made this thread. If he was, you should ignore him anyway.

[AnHero]

Honestly the hero was broken. Sure he could go on incredible streaks of luck and own, but it could also go the other way and he'd be completely useless. I see this change as attempting at least some consistency to the hero. Changes that decrease a heroes reliance on one particular item are good imo. More diverse builds to fit the roles that are required.

[DamnedReg]

For everyone complaining about this being a nerf, you're insane. Look at the hard numbers at level 16.

With Staff old: 30% chance of 5x, average damage rate of 2.2 casts. (100 + .3 X 400 = 220%)

Without old: 20% chance of 4x, average damage rate of 1.6 casts.

New, butt naked: 50% chance of 2x, 25% of 3x, 12.5% of 4x. Average damage rate of 2.375 casts. (100 +.5 X 100 + .25 X 200 + .125 X 300 = 237.5%)

I'd argue the old staff was still stronger, since that kind of burst damage is dangerous and prevents people limping away, but the staff is an expensive item. Now you can give him a different toy and have something to do in fights besides spam fireball over and over hoping it instakills someone. This is a buff, and a pretty major one.

[Lionguild]

Major nerf in this patch. Sure he was a bit imba last patch, but this is over the top. His not worth playing in his current state.

Discuss.
Its actually better now, did you even play him yet?

[Whitebushid1]

When the same change happened in DotA I remember people complaining about him being too OP in games because he'd get a 2x or 3x every single time he used fireball, but that was probably due to WC3's funky chance mechanism. In any case, this was a good change.

Doesn't the wc3 one use a 1 roll system and like 1-40 = x2, 41-60 = x3, etc.?

[Psiboy]

They released him as an over-buffed ogre magi then they over-nerfed him. Hopefully balance is found.

[Nome]

Meh, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the hero should be removed. He was stupid in DotA and stupid in HoN, in every single one of his incarnations (ESPECIALLY his old school DotA version).

[Terranova1]

Ofc he's overnerfed but they mindlessly copy dumbfrog's changes, so deal with it.

Says the kiddo playing a game that is a COPY of dota, carried to its actual MOST balanced state by IceFrog. Just die please.

[MilkaCow]

New, butt naked: 50% chance of 2x, 25% of 3x, 12.5% of 4x. Average damage rate of 2.375 casts. (100 +.5 X 100 + .25 X 200 + .125 X 300 = 237.5%)

The calculation on the new ultimate is wrong.


You have first of all a 50% Chance to get a Doublecast.
If you did this, you got a 12,5% to get 4 and 25% to get 3.

Tree diagram would be:

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8610/apicturec.jpg

And the complete calculations for all levels:

Old Ultimate:
Level 3 without Aghanims
20% * 4 + 80% * 1 = 1,6 Average Casts

Level 3 with Aghanims
30% * 5 + 70% * 1 = 2,2 Average Casts

New Ultimate:
Level 1
75% * 1 + 25% * 2 = 1,25 Average Casts

Level 2
60% * 1 + 32% * 2 + 8% * 3 = 1,48 Average Casts

Level 3
50% * 1 + 31,25% * 2 + 12,5% * 3 + 6,25% * 4 = 1,75 Average Casts

So the hero got a buff (0,15 Average Casts more) together with getting
a nerv (loosing the ability to use Aghanims or to say it in Numbers -0,45 Average Casts).

I think it's better this way. The other was just too luck dependant.

[MrJag]

I did not interpret the tooltip to apply the percentages like that and it certainly doesn't feel like the numbers are that low. Can a developer speak up on the actual math mechanics involved?

[ubidat]

Ahhh... I like it the way it is now.
Firstly, you don't have to spend time farming a Staff of the Master and can spend the gold on something more usefull to the team, like a disable item.
Secondly, I find you get more mid range casts off, so it averages out in total spell damage, instead of one BIG shot of fire on a single target. ^_^

-ubi

[Killroy]

Heyhey milkacow, also here? At least if you are the old dce milkacow that is :) So what does this change do? It buffs the naked ulti by 10% as stated in milkacows post. Besides that every second cast should be a multicast. This makes his fireball a 480 damage stun every 6 secs on average and on a more reliable scale. Definitely a buff.

The other buff as others have stated is the fact that you do not need the staff anymore but now you can concentrate on totem/codex/shiva's. All good support items and more teambased while the staff of the master was just kill oriented.

Overall I think it is a good chance to a hero that has always been one of my favorites.

[MilkaCow]

True, it makes the hero be more of a real hero and not a "I have to farm the first half of the game so i can go around in the second half and just use one spell all the time"-hero.

The old one was a strong hero, but quite boring, since each game was pretty much the same.

And yes, it's me. This freaky DotA addiction which doesn't let me go since years :(
Now it's HoN addiction. And DCE? By now it's HCE! xD

[Shamoke1]

The calculation on the new ultimate is wrong.


You have first of all a 50% Chance to get a Doublecast.
If you did this, you got a 12,5% to get 4 and 25% to get 3.

Tree diagram would be:

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8610/apicturec.jpg

And the complete calculations for all levels:

Old Ultimate:
Level 3 without Aghanims
20% * 4 + 80% * 1 = 1,6 Average Casts

Level 3 with Aghanims
30% * 5 + 70% * 1 = 2,2 Average Casts

New Ultimate:
Level 1
75% * 1 + 25% * 2 = 1,25 Average Casts

Level 2
60% * 1 + 32% * 2 + 8% * 3 = 1,48 Average Casts

Level 3
50% * 1 + 31,25% * 2 + 12,5% * 3 + 6,25% * 4 = 1,75 Average Casts

So the hero got a buff (0,15 Average Casts more) together with getting
a nerv (loosing the ability to use Aghanims or to say it in Numbers -0,45 Average Casts).

I think it's better this way. The other was just too luck dependant.

Yeah I did the math the day of the patch for some weird reason. Either way if I remember correctly it was a pretty decent buff for blacksmith without staff of the masters. He gained 17% more average damage from fireball, but lost 12% more average damage vs old blacksmith with staff of the masters.

The best part is there are nice item choices for him now and he doesn't have to sacrifice damage for them.

[rhodric1]

His ult nerf is necessary, but the mana cost of his spells are way too high. He doesn't have good int gain, and plus his 3 actives and an ult that further increases mana cost as a passive is too much. Take out the mana cost increase for his ult imo.

[krucifix]

I'm not 100% on this so feel free to correct me but didn't Staff of the Masters only increase the proc chance from something like 20% to 30%? It would seem kinda redundant and/or imbalanced with the new layout for the Chaotic Flames.

lvl 16 was 20% chance to proc 4 times.
Staff of the master was 30% to proc 5 times.

I still prefer it this way, anyway, and I enjoy playing Blacksmith a lot.