Zephyr tweaks

[Epic_Wizard]

I really like Zephyr and I've been playing him a lot but he suffers from a rather large problem. When you're playing against a team that you're better than by a noticeable level then he's god, especially if the fight drags on while you're farming and your team is 4 on 5. In fights where the skill levels are evenly matched or he's placed against a ranged hero early game then he's a turkey dinner. He's a hero that relies on last hits to build up gold and whirlwinds but at the same time he has low starting stats and attacks in Melee range. This combine with the fact that his only direct damage skill (Leap) has a rather long recharge rate leaves him in a bad position in a lot of games.

Lets take a quick look at Leap here. It's one of the longest range movement jump skills in the game with a max range of 1000. The problem is that it also has one of the longer cooldowns in the game with a cooldown progression of 20/19/18/17. Compare this to Magebane's Flash ability. Magebane's skill has a range progression of 1000/1075/1150/1150 and a cooldown progression of 12/9/7/5 (seconds). Compared to Leap with a range of 550/700/850/1000 and a minimum cooldown far lower than Flash's maximum cooldown and even with the damage Flash is a far superior skill unless you somehow need something nudged about 25 units or want to sacrifice yourself to kill someone with less than 250 health (something that any hero will hit for easily in late game).

Leap needs a lower cooldown or the damage on the skill is next to worthless since you have no other way to avoid getting your goose cooked which means you need to save the ability for escapes. It leaves your cyclones behind and takes to long to recharge to be good for more than deploying into a fight or escaping out of one, not both unless it's an extended engagement. I'd suggest a cooldown progression more along the lines of 14/12/10/8 which gives it a more reasonable cooldown to be used in skirmishes and makes Zephyr much more useful when chacing an enemy into their territory and geting out again.

Zephyr's Ultimate: At present I've yet to hear of anyone getting his Ultimate before everything except stats was maxed out or at the very least not before level 10. While it has quite a large area by most skill's standards (550 radius) this is almost nothing in terms of movement which maxes the speed increases and decreses the skill gives next to worthless since a fight has to happen within the area of the skill for the bonuses to be worth anything and even with a 40% movement slow it's pathetically easy to move from one side to the other and escape the effect. The cast time is also far to long for it to be worthwhile in using the skill to chase down an enemy as the casting loses you more than the movement increase gains you. While the attack speed increase is a decent buff it just doesn't measure up to other heroes Ultimates and even a lot of regular skills.

I'd suggest either making the current ultimate follow Zephyr around as he moves or change the skill completely to something more useful. One idea would be having his tornadoes stick to an enemy target and circle around and through it as they do with Zephyr for a few seconds (say 3/4/5). This would apply a significant amount of damage to the target and at the same time deprive Zephyr of his healing source at a trade off of being able to kill enemies at a decent range.

Zephyr's biggest problem early game though is how badly he is shut down by ranged heroes in the lanes. The easiest solution is to make him a short range hero instead of a melee hero and/or give him a boost to starting stats (at 17/18/19 he has one of the lowest starting stat sets in the game). Even a move to a 300 range would be a huge help to keep him from dieing to normal attacks not to mention making the tornadoes harder to deal with against enemy ranged heroes.

These are just my suggestions take then as you will but as things stand Zephyr is an intriguing hero who is going to end up as the enemy's turkey dinner half the time he's played.

[bonerlord]

dam, i posted a thread like this, i agree with you, he definatly needs to be ranged, master of the winds. and his ult seems a little pov tbh

[Epic_Wizard]

Sorry I don't know what "pov" means.

I agree Zephyr needs some tweaking though. Someone commented that he has a more inconsistent power level than Blacksmith and he got fixed. The issues is that no-one really plays as him because he's somewhat lackluster at the moment so it's basically a small group of us who are basically making offhanded comments about how he needs a few tweaks.

It sort of feels like he's not getting a lot of attention because of this and I really think he has a lot of potential. =/

[b1t]

I kind of agree, he feels very awkward at the moment, his ulti is great if used right but thats it. He's melee and Int, only hits hard when farmed up for a long time, has his leap on a big CD which is mainly used for escaping, the shield for evasion, and the cyclones are mainly used for farming and has little PvP use due to the short duration on them and kill requirements.

I see him as a kind of support hero, with possible tank/dps duty given the farming really late game. Just seems he only exists for dropping his ulti and then just wathcing/hiding to not get killed, he can't really hurt anyone early/mid and for him to hurt late game he needs to farm a lot, but then again he's not better then traditional carry heroes.

[Rewan]

I find the biggest problem with Zephys is that his HP scales way to low with other int heroe's dmg and his "shiled" (cant remember the name of the spell, its hotkeyed "E") dosent rly make up for that. Latest game I played him I went for 2 str bracers, boots, vanguard just to try it out tho istead of lacking HP (witch I still felt I did) I had no dps what so ever so after "threads" (cant remember what they call it in HoN) I whent for Cleave and started pushing lanes, runnign away at the first site of danger. the thing is with no dmg the other team dident se me as a threat so they just started killing my team mates instead + as soon as Thunderbringer, Scout, Pyromancer, Magebane or any ot the other nuke/dmg heroes decides its "time to die" no HP in the world could save you.

As Epic_Wizard states I fully agree that he is way to weak in early/mid game and since he is so depending on items to make up for his lack of HP/DMG its improtant that you are able to at least get a deacent farm with him.

Bloodstone would be one of the best items for this hero tho since getting the last hit on other heroes with Zephyr is not an easy task. over all if you compare him to the other int heroes in the game I would put him among the weaker ones, witch is sad since I see a lot of potantiall in this hero.

Suggestion; Nerfing his shield and make it passive, increease base stats, give him some range and buff/change his ultimate, reduce cooldown on the leap.

[StealthFire]

agree with tornado problem, should work like krobelus ghosts or have the damage applied in a constant AoE around him, with tornadoes for cosmetic effect.

agree with ult, it's less useful than a simple AoE Wave. By the very least make it follow him in an AoE.


Shield cannot be active. I mean look at it. Also feels very awkward on this hero. I'd prefer it if instead of a chance to bounce back, attacks that hit/don't hit him while the shield is on generates tornadoes as well, would make for nice synergy.

[Puck]

Causing his tornadoes to acquire targets in the same way DP's ghosts do would be a step in the right direction. He needs a way to dish out reliable damage.

edit: Did not read the post above mine.

[Epic_Wizard]

His shield really doesn't need a Nerf. If anything it needs a buff so that the evasion is better than that from the Bow (can't remember name) and as it stands since he has so much mana late game and nothing to use it on his shield may as well BE a passive since it lasts about as long as the cooldown.

The stated problem is that to be effective you basically have to leave your team 4 on 5 for a large piece of the game and if they can do that then almost any other hero choice would make the game a cake-walk.

[Rewan]

His shield really doesn't need a Nerf. If anything it needs a buff.

note: I only ment it needs a nerf if all my other sugestions where met, as the hero is now it would be stupid nerfing the shield and not change anything els.

[Epic_Wizard]

Honestly the shield isn't that great since a lot of what kills this guy is casters and they tend to attack less in the late game and use their spells more. Really I wouldn't mind seeing the shield be a simple 10% evasion/reflect per level even with a lower cooldown on his Leap and a change to his Ultimate.

The shield doesn't really need to be passive since it's half worthless before level 4 anyways and at that point you can keep it up almost indefinitely and you don't have any Mana problems being an Int hero with few spells. Besides if it's lower than 30% then you can just farm a Wingbow which would be silly but probably worth it if you got Melee evasion instead of just ranged from it.

[Jo]

so you go into the woods with him, regardless of how tough your lane is you should be able to farm a helm of the xxxx in not that long, use leap for last hits if needed.

[Epic_Wizard]

Helm doesn't help much really. Late game the damage reduction is pathetic and you're killing creeps before they can touch you twice anyways and it doesn't help against magic at all so you're better off with vamping or some sort of magic resist.

[KiLLMeNoW]

zeph rapes late game seeing as he can farm so easily. when he leaps his tornadoes should be able to pass impassable terrain as well.

[Jinnai]

Really, I have played a lot and making him ranged just doesn't fit the hero concept of Zephyr. Also there is a reason for why some heroes are melee and are weaker in the laning phase. Making him ranged is like suggesting to give Night Hound higher starting stats and more armor because he can't compete against Defiler in early game.
There are other few details that need tweaking. Like, when using a TP, your Cyclons are practically lost, which is a HUGE disadvantage. I suggest, that Cyclons teleport along with Zephyr when he TPs. Moreover Leap does really need a lot of improvement.
Improving the speed of the Cyclons a little bit so that you can actually fight after Leap, will already fix alot of the problem.
But let's look at Magebane again.
60 Mana at all levels. 12/9/7/5 CD. 1000/1075/1150/1150 Range. 0 Damage.
Versus
100/120/140/160 Mana. 20/19/18/16 CD. 550/700/850/1000 Range. 75/125/175/225 Dmg.

Improving the cooldown to a constent of 16 secs at all levels is really the least that is necessary to make up for the pathetic stats and damage. Also 160 mana is too much for what this skill does and how Zephyr relies on it. 100/110/120/130 is probably about fair. Now the scaling of the range VERY weak. The first two levels are like totally useless. You can't initiate an early kill with that and neither survive an early gank. 700/800/900/1000 will do.

The ultimate should, as already suggested, just follow Zehpyr around. This would fit the hero theme and make it actually usefull.

The rest is probably about fine, I'm not sure about the slow of his ultimate tho. Seems like it doesn't slow at all to me, maybe it's a bug and if it is, it needs to be fixed. Anyway, these changes would help this really interesting hero to be more balanced and fun to play.

[Epic_Wizard]

16 seconds is just one second less than his level 4. Best idea I've seen is to give it a 10 second CD at level 4.

[Jinnai]

This is way too strong. Maybe 17/16/15/14 at the best.

[livmew]

Cyclones absolutely need to glue to him, and either work as they do now, or spread out more and do some AE damage (or augment his damage perhaps? maybe a minor cleave? Something that lets you know what you are going to hit, and that doesn't mess up last-hitting by suddenly doing 40 damage here and there).

I don't think his ulti should follow him. It would seem incredibly strong to have mobile attack/ms buff AND debuff at once. It really is strong the way it is though I won't deny it's one of the most situational ultimates I know of that is very hard to use well without proper support. Then again, the same can be said for Kraken or Behemoth. Keep in mind, you can pick your fights. If you're defending, put it on the hill by the tower; if you're ganking, just have a good initator (hello Tempest) go in with portal key, follow with the leap-ulti combo and whack away. Same goes for when you're pushing the enemy base.

I have no suggestions about the other two skills, I do not know enough on them to comment.

[mintawno]

I personally believe Zephyr should be an agility hero. I mean, what's he got that makes him a caster anyways? Blacksmith has at least has 2 nukes.

[Epic_Wizard]

This is way too strong. Maybe 17/16/15/14 at the best.

Why? As damage skills go it's pretty weak. It also moves him as well instead of just being a strait nuke. Thunderbringer's second skill does 350 damage on a 7 second cooldown with a mini-stun and reveal effect to boot. The 10 second cooldown gives Zephyr time to jump into a fight, do some damage, and get out again without having a huge risk of being surrounded and killed.


I personally believe Zephyr should be an agility hero. I mean, what's he got that makes him a caster anyways? Blacksmith has at least has 2 nukes.

As near as I can figure he's an Int hero because if he was Agility he would be broken. He doesn't actually need more Mana so if he ran around with a ton of Agility he'd be an armored up evasion tank that would beat the snot out of just about everything. He's fine as an Int hero so I say we leave him there.


Cyclones absolutely need to glue to him, and either work as they do now, or spread out more and do some AE damage (or augment his damage perhaps? maybe a minor cleave? Something that lets you know what you are going to hit, and that doesn't mess up last-hitting by suddenly doing 40 damage here and there).

That would be a buff to the cyclones. Their unpredictability isn't large enough to cause a major issue in his damage and doesn't make him a crazy last-hit machine.


I don't think his ulti should follow him. It would seem incredibly strong to have mobile attack/ms buff AND debuff at once. It really is strong the way it is though I won't deny it's one of the most situational ultimates I know of that is very hard to use well without proper support. Then again, the same can be said for Kraken or Behemoth. Keep in mind, you can pick your fights. If you're defending, put it on the hill by the tower; if you're ganking, just have a good initator (hello Tempest) go in with portal key, follow with the leap-ulti combo and whack away. Same goes for when you're pushing the enemy base.

If it doesn't follow him then it needs like a 60 second cooldown or maybe even 40 since it's fairly weak as a stationary AoE. Neither Kraken nor Behemoth's Ultimates are so situational you have to second guess using them. Kraken's is a gank starter and can also be used to chase down fleeing heroes. Behemoth's is used for finishing up or countering lane pushes. Zephyr's would be best for quick killing towers with creeps but the Cooldown is WAY to long for it to be used for that.

[Jinnai]

Why? As damage skills go it's pretty weak. It also moves him as well instead of just being a strait nuke. Thunderbringer's second skill does 350 damage on a 7 second cooldown with a mini-stun and reveal effect to boot. The 10 second cooldown gives Zephyr time to jump into a fight, do some damage, and get out again without having a huge risk of being surrounded and killed.

Because it allowes Zephyr to
- escape
- initiate
- chase
- deal dmg to more then just one enemy
- push enemies in a desired direction (which is very effective if done well)
- farm

This skill still needs improvement, because it is very weak at all this. But giving it a 10s CD at lvl 4 is too strong. And this skill is definitly not about going in and going out right after. Either you go into a fight and win/lose or you don't go in imo.

[Epic_Wizard]

Because it allowes Zephyr to
- escape
- initiate
- chase
- deal dmg to more then just one enemy
- push enemies in a desired direction (which is very effective if done well)
- farm

This skill still needs improvement, because it is very weak at all this. But giving it a 10s CD at lvl 4 is too strong. And this skill is definitly not about going in and going out right after. Either you go into a fight and win/lose or you don't go in imo.

So does that mean Magebane should be nerfed? I mean his Blink skill has a CD of 5 seconds at level 4 and a longer range.

There are lots of heroes that get into a fight, drop a few skills, and then run like their arse is on fire. When Zephyr doesn't have more gold than Midas that's the only way I see him being played effectively and not feeding the entire enemy team.

[ChimEuphoria]

When Zephyr doesn't have more gold than Midas that's the only way I see him being played effectively and not feeding the entire enemy team.

A zephyr without more gold than midas is a useless zephyr, he has magnificent farming potential for a reason.

[Epic_Wizard]

A zephyr without more gold than midas is a useless zephyr, he has magnificent farming potential for a reason.

Yes but shutting him down is quite easy and until he gets that gold it's basically 4.5 on 5 if Zephyr is even on hand for fights at all. The point a lot of us are trying to make is that this shouldn't be the case. A lot of the hero killers can get just as much gold as Zephyr off of hero kills combined with laning but if they don't get it then they are still useful and can contribute.

Zephyr without gold is best of staying in the Mana Pool so he doesn't feed anyone in team battles.

If this isn't a balance issue then what is it?

[Bonburner]

How does Zephyr initiate? 250 damage leap that pushes everything away from him so everything can blast him and be fried turkey make him able to initiate? If his leap did slow or stun or some status ailment it would be good.

[zanirzrold]

okay people keep saying "shut down" but its your own damn fault! If you are going against 2 range with nukes then it doesnt matter who you are you'll have a poor early game: you have to gank a lot and just not die.



Make sure your lane partner is good: jereziah, demented shaman, pyromancer, tort are all good lane partners. Just don't go with night hound and complain you can't get any kills vs soulstealear and tempest, that's just ignorant.

[Epic_Wizard]

okay people keep saying "shut down" but its your own damn fault! If you are going against 2 range with nukes then it doesnt matter who you are you'll have a poor early game: you have to gank a lot and just not die.



Make sure your lane partner is good: jereziah, demented shaman, pyromancer, tort are all good lane partners. Just don't go with night hound and complain you can't get any kills vs soulstealear and tempest, that's just ignorant.

Oh believe me I know how important early game lane-partner is for this guy. Then again if the enemy is running two ranged on one lane then their other lane is going to be a turkey shoot so it evens out then (or they're to Int heavy and will have LOTS of trouble late game).

There is a difference between complaining because of an unbelievably bad starting lane pairing and complaining because Zephyr needs a rather long list of conditions to be met before he's really effective.

[Robsquire]

I like the way zephyr is right now, I really think that char has some potential. I have played it 2 times and both times I was too much of a tank for the other team to defend against me. The only issue I have is what someone said above me; tornados don't go through impassible terrain, that irritates me.