Madman: A Study of Masochism

[Euphoria]

Madman
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http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6249/madmanstats.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2738/madmanpicture.jpg



Skills: Learns Stalk, Intimidate, Gash, Berserk
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http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7599/madmanstalk.jpg

Activation [Q]

Target Unit: Self
Type: Magic
Mana cost: 75
Cooldown: 20 seconds

Apply stalk to self for 10/15/20/25 seconds
Gain +10/20/30/40% movement speed
0 second fade time
Unitwalking

This is your escape, your initiate, and your ticket across the map. Max this skill and use it wisely. The cost is rather steep, but it does give the highest movement speed buff for any stealth in game.

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http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3168/madmanintimidate.jpg

Activation [W]

Target Unit: Enemy Units
Radius: 350
Mana cost: 40
Cooldown: 15 seconds

Applies -5/10/15/20% damage to enemies
Applies -2/3/4/5 Armor
Effects Last 20 seconds.

This spell is useful in team fights, and at least will give you a bit of a use late game. You can stealth into the enemy quickly and pop this spell giving them a moderate reduction in armor and damage. If nothing else, it’s unique in its effect.
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http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1214/madmangash.jpg

Gives 10/16/22/28% Chance for 2.0x Critical Strike
Gives critical. If you can’t understand this you should take up knitting.
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http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3537/madmanberserk.jpg
Activation [R]

Self
Magic
Mana cost: 100/150/205
Cooldown: 55 seconds

Gives +5/7/9% Movement Speed
Gives +40/80/120 Attack Speed
Take +15% More Damage
Effects last 30 seconds

While this does make you take a lot more damage, you have no other way to put out big damage. You’re gonna have to suck it up and hope they are too busy laughing at you to notice you dealing big damage.

Item Build:

There are several items this hero needs to succeed. They are, in no particular order, Steamboots, Abyssal Skull, and Savage Mace. These are key items that will give Madman increased damage and hopefully allow him to survive a fight, provided he doesn't get disabled to hell. A Shrunken Head is also a key item depending on the other team lineup, but that is to be decided game to game.

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Starting Items:

2 x Runes of the Blight


Rush to a Helm of the Victim as soon as you can. You will want to occupy a side lane with a strong ally as you stand no chance of soloing and need access to the side shops.

2 x Fortified Bracelets

You will need some HP with your ultimate blowing your HP away bit by bit. No way around this.
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Mid Game Items:

1x Steamboots
1 x Whispering Helm

Grab a strong neutral creep with your Whispering Helm and try to farm lane and neutrals as much as you can. Your best bet is a Minotaur or Catman. You may be called on to gank, you don’t really deal much damage, but hell, you can hit decently fast and have some fair damage by mid game. You will want to get as many kills as you can, you will ideally need a team strong with disables as that is your best chance to put out high damage both mid and late game.

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Late Game Items:

1 x Savage Mace
1 x Wingbow
OR
1x Shruken Head

Your damage output skyrockets with the damage procs on Savage Mace. Given adequate disables you will pump out damage faster than most heroes. The Wingbow is a stretch. These are expensive items, it’s unrealistic to think an average player will get them all. If nothing else, get the Shrunken Head if the other team is heavy on disable.

This hero takes some serious knowledge of the enemy lineup and of your own to know if it will work. Madman in his current state is not the greatest hero, but he is a challenge if you are looking for it, and he can succeed late game given the proper team.
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Skill Build:
1. Stalk
2. Stats
3. Stalk
4. Stats
5. Stalk
6. Stats
7. Stalk
8. Stats
9. Berserk
10. Gash
11. Berserk
12-14. Gash
15. Intimidate
16. Berserk
17-19. Intimidate

This is only one path. You may go switch Gash/Intimidate a bit earlier in exchange for stats, but the only real way to farm and survive early is through your invisibility to put some doubt on the enemy with ganks and increased stats for survivability and last hitting.
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Q&A: Alternatively, Why am I dying so much with Madman? Please, Teach me the ways!

Q1: Why did you make a nice guide for Madman and not a hero I'll actually play?!
A1: Because, if I make a Torturer guide, no one will ever play Madman.

Q2: Why do I keep dying? I did everything you said!
A2: Madman is highly item reliant, if you are not incredibly good at last hitting, and with a tough hero like Madman, you will not be successful.

Q3: Your item and skill builds suck. Enhanced Marchers RULE!
A3: Go make your own guide.

Well, what else could you possibly want? Ask away, I'll try to answer as best I can. If you are wondering about alternate skill builds or if an Item is viable on Madman, feel free to ask, there's no single way to play a hero that is best in every situation.

[Hucklecat]

LOOOL im liking how madmans attack range is even shorter than other melee heroes, cool yo.

[Euphoria]

Credit to Hucklecat for the format.

[Hiro]

I think you mixed up Whispering Helm with Abyssal Skull, bro.

[Euphoria]

Oh, Yup I did. Still not 100%, even looking at the item guide mixed em up.

[Hucklecat]

Just somethings I want to point out for the S2 dudes.

Stalk Compared to Bone Clinkz Wind Walk

Level 1 - 10% increased movement speed, 20 seconds.
Level 2 - 20% increased movement speed, 25 seconds.
Level 3 - 30% increased movement speed, 30 seconds.
Level 4 - 40% increased movement speed, 35 seconds.

Cooldown: 20 seconds.
Level 1: 75 mana, 20 sec cooldown.
Level 2: 75 mana, 20 sec cooldown.
Level 3: 75 mana, 20 sec cooldown.
Level 4: 75 mana, 20 sec cooldown.


Now lets compare gash to Jugg and BH

Blade Dance
Yurnero's cunning blade gives him a chance to deal double damage on each attack.

Level 1 - 10% chance.
Level 2 - 18% chance.
Level 3 - 26% chance.
Level 4 - 36% chance.
Passive

Jinada
Gives a % chance to evade attacks and 15% chance to deal extra damage.

Level 1 - 5% dodge, 1.25 critical multiplier.
Level 2 - 10% dodge, 1.5 critical multiplier.
Level 3 - 15% dodge, 1.75 critical multiplier.
Level 4 - 20% dodge, 2 critical multiplier.
Passive

ok now lets look at Intimidate and compare it to VS.

Wave of Terror
Shendelzare lets loose a wicked cry, terrorizing enemy units. Their armor and damage are reduced.

Level 1 - Reduces base armor by 2 and damage by 5%.
Level 2 - Reduces base armor by 3 and damage by 10%.
Level 3 - Reduces base armor by 4 and damage by 15%.
Level 4 - Reduces base armor by 5 and damage by 20%.

Cooldown: 15
Level 1: 40 mana, 15 sec cooldown.
Level 2: 40 mana, 15 sec cooldown.
Level 3: 40 mana, 15 sec cooldown.
Level 4: 40 mana, 15 sec cooldown.


and for his ultimate, lets compare it to Troll.

Rampage
Jah'rakal goes into a feral rampage, increasing his attack and movement speeds.
Lasts 30 seconds.
Level 1 - Increases attack speed by 40% and movement speed by 5%.
Level 2 - Increases attack speed by 80% and movement speed by 7%.
Level 3 - Increases attack speed by 120% and movement speed by 9%.

Cooldown: 55
Level 1: 100 mana, 55 sec cooldown.
Level 2: 150 mana, 55 sec cooldown.
Level 3: 205 mana, 55 sec cooldown.



Is there a reason why you took all your spells from these heroes and made really shitty versions of it for madman?

[Euphoria]

He has slightly higher str + agi gain, but that's about it. Remove the damage increase on his ulti, and change Intimidate to some sort of ability where Madman stabs himself and the enemy causing them to slow and lose damage him to speed up and gain damage due to his frenzy. That would be a lot more badass lore wise. And it would definitely make him a suicide cannon like he is, but actually threatening.

[Murs]

idk why u would play madman, it's bottom 5 worst heroes in the game atm.

also u don't need anything more than one point in stalk, lol.

[Euphoria]

Except the cooldown doesn't let you stay invis and 10% is incredibly slow. His other skills aren't as useful early game, so why bother? He only needs to survive + farm. Also, I made the guide since no one has bothered to even read them, so why not make a guide for a hero people are trashing anyway.

[Murs]

stats are way better than another 10%ms for stalk and crit is better too.

[Euphoria]

Like i said, write a guide. If you READ it says it's not the only build and just an example.

[Hiro]

You're wrong Murs. Not being able to Stalk again for 10+ seconds after you break invisibility for +stats is pretty stupid. Plus, you have no mobility with 10 seconds of 10% movement speed bonus. How are you going to catch up to your enemies? Enhanced Marchers? Why get that when you have an innate skill for chasing?

[Murs]

you aren't going to be catching up to enemies when you have beyond a doubt the weakest earlygame/midgame in the game.

you might as well go stats for the +hp and +dmg so he has a chance (a small one) of farming, laning, and carrying lategame.

[Netukka]

Was kinda expecting to see nullfire or brutalizer suggested....Guess not. Not really the best hero anyways.

[FuriousPeon]

All that would make this hero better is a 2 second slow with stalk and taking away the 15% damage increase with rampage..er berserk. Anyhow, I'm going to experiment a bit and try to make him more useful and write a guide too. But nethertheless, nice guide, good format.

[Inconmon]

I also thought nullfire => manta style (whatever the name is) makes sense

[Euphoria]

Why would he need either of those items? You either go Shrunken Head or no immunity on a Carry. If they are gonna focus you, one superpriced item that blocks every 20 seconds won't be very helpful. He doesn't need the regen at all. And while purge stick is nice on every agility hero, Manta is wasteful since he has no effects really to benefit from it. Those would just be 2 costly items that increase his damage by very little. He's best with items that will work with his attack speed.

And Brutalizer? He already has crit. Stacking crit is the worst way to up your damage.

[Inconmon]

Brutalizer does stun.

[SodanKerjuu]

Intimidate and berserk is missing their timers. How long they last?

Anyway, nice guide. Gonna put into use next time I random the madman.

[Euphoria]

Brutalizer does stun.

Oh the basher? Not worth it. Too expensive for minimal effect. Bashing is a 1v1 effect and in team fights it won't help you at all. You can chase anyone anyway so there's need to spend 3k gold for an item that is only useful ganking when you can kill easier with better gear. Why need stuns when you already have .1s stun/damage procs anyway from better items? The only use for a stun is to break a channeler with a Shrunken Head.

[Degradation]

this guide needs to be updated, intimidate is now barrel roll and stalk is more like weaver's ability than a ww so who knows what else is different, I would really like an updated version though let me know if you do

[SurfDude]

1. Stalk
2. Stats
3. Stalk
4. Stats
5. Stalk
6. Stats
7. Stalk
8. Stats
9. Berserk
10. Gash
11. Berserk
12-14. Gash
15. Intimidate
16. Berserk
17-19. Intimidate

This is only one path. You may go switch Gash/Intimidate a bit earlier in exchange for stats, but the only real way to farm and survive early is through your invisibility to put some doubt on the enemy with ganks and increased stats for survivability and last hitting.


You may want to switch some of that around now that stalk is different and intimidate is replaced with barrel roll.

Also, what's the strategy behind stats before skills? I'd argue that gash > stats.

[Degradation]

I can answer that one, what good is critting 2x if you don't do any dmg?

the more dmg you have the more effective a crit will be and thus stats before gash becomes viable

[Deltae]

Outdated information. Could this be taken off the list of guides, unless it becomes updated. Or someone makes another guide..

I just played a game with madman properly for first time ever, and well.. I guess I did fine with survival, but about killing people? I could've get anything done, especially since whole our team lacked slows, I kinda ended up just running after or away from people and getting 1-2 hits in every now and then, maybe few more with barrel roll but, I just couldn't really do anything with him so I guess I did something wrong..

I could assist with ganks atleast but to solo with him? That I couldn't do at all, even tho on paper Madman sounds like pretty good solo hero too..

[Gwynz]

I had a game like that last night, we just had a terrible overall SD team where nobody except Bloodhunter knew their heroes, and I got flamed for trying to give advice to the supports (you'd think everyone knew how to play Thunderbringer, but it seems not).

Eventually my team fed the enemy to the point where I was getting 3-shotted, and I didn't pick Stalk because I didn't realise Barrel Roll had been changed (a few people claimed it had been 'fixed', which is wrong so I knew I couldn't trust their advice). I was gimped to the point i couldn't carry, they had total map control, and it was over in minutes from that point.

It seems there's not an awful lot of knowledge about how to play a good Madman in his current form, and I'm certainly nowhere near good enough with him to make suggestions.

I have a question though - what is Barrel Roll currently for, other than killsteals? You can't open from cover with it unless you want someone else to take the kill (useless for a carry) and it uses too much mana to take with Stalk expecially when your first item should be Nullfire.

A lot of pub kiddies claim he's totally overpowered in the right hands, but I haven't seen any evidence of this firsthand. Any help would be awesome, thanks.

[Vorret]

Honestly, as a newb, the only time I've seen madman do any sort of damage end game was when he's been fed and fed and fed some more with a fed team. Basicly it happens once every moon cycle.

Otherwise he's just an annoyance , kinda like creeps when you're level 15+

He really needs a serious buff, there's no reason to pick him over most other agi heroes he simply doesn't do anything "well" just everything "below average".

my 2 cents.

This info is clearly outdated. I'm relatively new but I always seem to do solid with MM in 1600+ games. I go pretenders+str claw x2 + 2x runes to start > completed 2x fortified > marches > enhanced marches (or steam depending on playstyle I guess) > abysall skull then I'll usually go straight for a wingbow farm with easy beserk jungling with lifesteal. This way requires your team to carry you a little, but you can still assist with stun ganks in your lane till you get abysall and even with your fast movement speed stealth you can assist with ganks mid game. Once you get the wingbow you'll have some added survivability and with your pretty brutal damage and quick attacks from beserk+wingbow most solo hero's will soon run from you. I find myself ripping through all types of heroes with beserk almost constantly up at this point, still roaming the jungle and possible going for a runed axe for luxury or a shrunken head if you're really getting the CC layed down on you.

Once again I have no idea how this will work for other players or any kind of high level play, but it works for me with a couple of my buddies in pugs. cheers.

[noodle0117]

and to think that madman was considered overpowered just a few patches ago...

[Gwynz]

This is the thing, his Barrel Roll used to be a combined halfscreen blink/250 nuke/4 sec slow which wasn't really OP, it just clearly defined Madman's role in the game.

Now that it's a stun, the situations where he works are totally different and very limited, he doesn't fit into a valuable role, and this makes him a bad pick compared to pretty much any other hero.

WRT wheel: Simply stealing kills and farming great items doesn't make your hero comparably worthwhile, IMO.

I dont mention stealing kills anywhere in there. WRT incase you werent aware HON is highly team oriented and having a stun beginning game can turn the tide when assisting others. That's why I say "assist" not kill, because you wont be killing anyone by yourself till later game (unless you're lucky or they're dumb.) But when you can get to the point where you can have beserk up with good items you WILL kill and people will run from you which makes you vital to your team.

fyi, I dont play ***** all pick. I play force random, so theres no such thing as "a better pick" when you happen to get that hero. I'm not saying madman is great, I'm saying thats what I do to help my team and make the best out of what he is.

[gwyn1]

WRT = With Respect To, I wasn't meaning to insult you or your suggestion. I'm only interested in whether Madman has anything that would be worth picking him for (as opposed to any of the other Agi heroes, or any with a stun/nuke).

I know you didn't mention stealing kills, but really that's what being a carry is all about. You have to be the strongest guy on the map from a very early stage, but a good opponent won't provide free kills and will have the pushing skill to end the game before Madman can reach that point.

If there was literally no other carry to pick in a draft, or you could guarantee a freefarm to level 25 then he'd be an obvious choice, but it seems like literally any other Agi hero would be more useful with the same items.

It's not a carry to 25, but meh whatever im done discussing it. And force random has no draft, you're assigned a hero and thats that. Unless you repick, which is meh in my opinion. I was simply posting what could be a useful MM strat but it seems you're determined to say how bad he is instead of working towards how he could be used if you're in a situation where you have to use him. But thats fine, troll on brother.

[gwyn1]

I put an argument forward, and you're not interested in discussing it, yet I'm the troll somehow.

You've got **** for brains, if you ask me. If you're done discussing something, stop typing and let someone else have a go.

lol... you're arguing something that im not talking about. be productive.

[gwyn1]

I think you should talk about what I'm arguing. That way you would learn to think and not be such a total disappointment to everyone that loves you.

[Valonsire]

^^ wtf does that have anything to do with your arguement? seems dumb to bring his personal life into it

lol all I ever tried to do was help people by posting what I've done in pub games with Madman, if you thought it was stupid fine, dont do it. But don't sit here and tell me that any other agi hero can do what he can do better cause thats NOT what we're discussing, we're discussing madman tactics not 'pick another hero tactics.' If you actually read any of my posts you'll see I'm talking about FORCE RANDOM. So yes, another hero could do it better but this is what I found out that works for him when I'm forced to use him with force random. Jesus now stfu and troll elsewhere.

[phamilyguy]

Hey, **** for brains, Gwynz is trying to raise a hypothetical example to further discuss the possible usages of Madman in various circumstances. You are simply giving one narrow-minded view of what WOULD be expected if you are forced random, which contributes nothing to using Madman other than to say, "Oh, Madman is garbage, this is the only real way to play him when you don't have a choice."

If you don't know what a discussion is, take a speech and debate class.

[fishmael]

this guide needs to be updated, intimidate is now barrel roll and stalk is more like weaver's ability than a ww so who knows what else is different, I would really like an updated version though let me know if you do

me too!

[Phenomenon]

This skill order is still pretty good to start with, you just want to get barrel roll 1 early on.

[s0lid]

Get one barrel roll at 5-6 lvl and other wise that list works pretty well :)

[huY]

Get one barrel roll at 5-6 lvl and other wise that list works pretty well :)

That's for the first version of Madman if you didn't notice.

"06-14-2009, 02:02 AM" Pretty long time ago.

[Milkhater]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=12586

updated