View Distance, zoom, and why we need more of it.

[Lothrik]

My point of view: View distance should be lockable by the game host, as an advanced gameplay option, with a considerably higher maximum limit. 1650 is not enough.

Addition: Fog of War MUST be made all-inclusive (spells, trees falling, EVERYTHING) for this to work without causing imbalance.

Addition: Fog of War distance would be INCREASED to compensate for the increased view distance. This means there would be more Fog of War.

My reasoning:

1. It's frustrating being forced to stay zoomed in so far on just about any monitor not built in the Stone Age. It's like playing WoW from first person view -- short of making a YouTube video, it's just.. mind numbing.

2. Not everybody enjoys staring at a minimap for information "just out of view" -- especially when they know it doesn't have to be that way.

3. This game has beautiful graphics.. being forced to look at them so closely, however, diminishes that. That's just my personal opinion though, yours may vary ;)

4. Wouldn't you rather be looking at those beautiful graphics instead of blips on a minimap, only glancing up when the enemy blips are near your blip?

5. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it. Example: Don't like instant respawn games? Filter them out!

6. The game engine supports it. As I understand, it was a game engine limitation that forced this view distance on players in DOTA.. not the case here.

7. ... Why not!? The only logical argument I've actually seen against this is that it reduces the "skill level" of the game -- which doesn't make any sense: so does Easy Mode, and it's in the game, hell, it was in DOTA! I won't go into that topic any further though, talking about Easy Mode is like walking head first into a death trap.

8. Even people playing DotA 3 years ago wanted this: http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=42047 ..

If you're considering voting "No" please at least take the time to explain why, so I can CHANGE this idea to address your concerns. Please understand what your vote means before you make it!

[FiNGERS]

Thanks for your feedback, currently sending to all people who care (0 of 0). Have a great day!

[Lothrik]

Thanks for your feedback, currently sending to all people who care (0 of 0). Have a great day!

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/f/f1/Trollface_HD.jpg

.. and thank you, sir. ;)

[FiNGERS]

Well sir, you're a Novemberite. This exact post has been made half a dozen times since I got into beta, and -- for better or worse -- the camera is not going to change.

[HONYoda]

It will, if enough people ask for it. I agree that it's annoying as f*ck right now. People should be able to select a zoom hat they are comfortable with. The fog of war is what allows ganking. The zoom should not be taken into account for ganks.

[Lothrik]

I like how four people have voted No and haven't had the courtesy to explain why not. I doubt they even read my entire post =/

[Lothrik]

Two more "no" votes, still no reasons why. Sigh.

[Divo]

Do a search on related topics. I guarantee everyone who voted no on your poll explained why in a similar post.
There have only been around 70. Shouldn't take you long to find all the answers you need.

[Lothrik]

I still think S2 should implement this as an advanced option, if only on a trial basis to see how it goes.

I mean hell, even people playing DotA 3 years ago wanted this, don't be such sticks in the mud! =(

http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=42047

[ShAdOw_LaNcE]

The only reason why I say no, is because it hurts a lot of heroes. For example, valkyrie's arrow would be terrible if it could be seen coming sooner, the whole point is that your screen cannot show you it so it is hittable. Also, the mini-map blips tell you if a hero is coming and therefore the screen should also be able to also, but if you are in the middle of a fight, you should not be able to easily see reinforcements coming for their hero, if you really want to know you should pay attention to the mini map. Furthermore, stuff is hard to click on, if it's smaller it will be even harder to click on, and for heroes like sand wraith who need to be able to land targettable abilities that also would on the ground, this would be hurtful, but for heroes like dark lady who have a long range that only activate when targetted, this would make a chase much easier. As a summary, the game is designed and balanced based on this window size, if you change the amount of visible area, it changes how the game flows.

I feel like your point in contradictory, your complaining about having to be zoomed in, but you want a bigger range??? Doesn't this contradict?

And in regards to the EM comment, I play EM to teach people, and not because it require less skill but because you get more items and learn more. Every1 has a gold/tower/exp advantage in EM, with every 1 at the same stand point, there is only the issue creep kill and hero kill gold not meaning as much, but the more you get the better you are, and the more change you have to win.

But yeah, EM, I'm not touching it any more that that...

[Lothrik]

The only reason why I say no, is because it hurts a lot of heroes. For example, valkyrie's arrow would be terrible if it could be seen coming sooner, the whole point is that your screen cannot show you it so it is hittable. Also, the mini-map blips tell you if a hero is coming and therefore the screen should also be able to also, but if you are in the middle of a fight, you should not be able to easily see reinforcements coming for their hero, if you really want to know you should pay attention to the mini map. Furthermore, stuff is hard to click on, if it's smaller it will be even harder to click on, and for heroes like sand wraith who need to be able to land targettable abilities that also would on the ground, this would be hurtful, but for heroes like dark lady who have a long range that only activate when targetted, this would make a chase much easier. As a summary, the game is designed and balanced based on this window size, if you change the amount of visible area, it changes how the game flows.

I feel like your point in contradictory, your complaining about having to be zoomed in, but you want a bigger range??? Doesn't this contradict?

And in regards to the EM comment, I play EM to teach people, and not because it require less skill but because you get more items and learn more. Every1 has a gold/tower/exp advantage in EM, with every 1 at the same stand point, there is only the issue creep kill and hero kill gold not meaning as much, but the more you get the better you are, and the more change you have to win.

But yeah, EM, I'm not touching it any more that that...

Fog of War would stay exactly the same. The only significant change I can see coming from this is a reduction in the average APM, as people would end up spam-clicking to move much, much less.

Heroes with ranged attacks would likely be able to react quicker with this (I'm thinking Devourer), as they would not need to shift their viewpoint nearly as often, but on the flip side, melee heroes would be able to react quicker as well (assuming they can see the attack coming, which isn't guaranteed, with the Fog of War distance remaining the same as it always has), and escape.

For Dark Lady, I'm not sure how the mechanic of her targeted attack works, if it requires an enemy target, it would essentially behave exactly the same: you can't click on enemies that are in the Fog of War. If it requires a ground target, I suppose Dark Lady's reaction time would be improved by a couple hundred milliseconds, depending on how fast the player was before at moving their viewpoint.

"I feel like your point in contradictory, your complaining about having to be zoomed in, but you want a bigger range??? Doesn't this contradict?"
I'm not sure where I said bigger range, but anyways, I likely meant zoomed out more, and given that interpretation I don't see the contradiction at all, sorry.

Also, thanks for the constructive response. Appreciate it.

[PudgeMissing]

Although i would like to see this, at the moment it would be very bad to be able to zoom out further.

With the large number of effects that can still be seen through the fog (spells, trees falling), zooming out far enough would be akin to having a map hack.

Its a no for now.

[Lothrik]

Although i would like to see this, at the moment it would be very bad to be able to zoom out further.

With the large number of effects that can still be seen through the fog (spells, trees falling), zooming out far enough would be akin to having a map hack.

Its a no for now.

Thanks, I never really noticed that I guess. I'd definitely agree -- something about that would have to change before this could be implemented. Fog of War MUST be all-inclusive for this to work without causing imbalance.

[Skee_]

While I understand the argument that fog of war would stay the exact same zoomed in or zoomed out, I think that's not why the effectiveness of valkyrie's arrow and such would be reduced.

Even if fog remains the same, if you are able to zoom out further than roughly the distance of your current fog of war, when valkyrie's arrow comes out of the fog, it's already close to the center of your screen, no matter where it's launched from. Therefore even if you might not physically see it faster coming out of fog, you'll still be able to react to it faster because it's in the center of your vision, as opposed to arrowing from behind or from the side.

Right now one of the constrictions of the current camera angle (in my opinion an advantageous one for balanced gameplay) is the fact that you either need to look ahead of you to focus on a wave, or behind you to look for ganks. Good camera positioning is a skill in itself that would be rendered much less important by this feature.

[Lothrik]

While I understand the argument that fog of war would stay the exact same zoomed in or zoomed out, I think that's not why the effectiveness of valkyrie's arrow and such would be reduced.

Even if fog remains the same, if you are able to zoom out further than roughly the distance of your current fog of war, when valkyrie's arrow comes out of the fog, it's already close to the center of your screen, no matter where it's launched from. Therefore even if you might not physically see it faster coming out of fog, you'll still be able to react to it faster because it's in the center of your vision, as opposed to arrowing from behind or from the side.

Right now one of the constrictions of the current camera angle (in my opinion an advantageous one for balanced gameplay) is the fact that you either need to look ahead of you to focus on a wave, or behind you to look for ganks. Good camera positioning is a skill in itself that would be rendered much less important by this feature.

This is a completely fair point, and is one of the core reasons I'm suggesting it be an advanced option.

Even if it is somewhat unfair to certain heroes in certain situations, it's nowhere near as bad as any other number of already existing game options (Easy Mode, No Respawn Timer..), and to be completely honest, I feel that it would add more to the game than both of those example options combined.

There's also no reason why the amount of Fog of War could not be increased to compensate for this.

[Skee_]

This is a completely fair point, and is one of the core reasons I'm suggesting it be an advanced option.

Even if it is somewhat unfair to certain heroes in certain situations, it's nowhere near as bad as any other number of already existing game options (Easy Mode, No Respawn Timer..), and to be completely honest, I feel that it would add more to the game than both of those example options combined.

Ah my apologies for misunderstanding. I took advanced option to be a technical option, not a gameplay option. I don't think there would be a foreseeable problem with making it a gameplay advanced option.

[Boomboom1]

I said no, because of mostly what has been already said. The current distance is necessary so that you can see what is going on around you, not any more. Zooming out more would give you a better time to react (because of what yatesri said, being in your focus), and being able to move your eyes quickly on the screen is an applicable skill to being a good player. Even if it was just an option, it would just be another easy mode crutch for people who want to warp the game as much as possible :\

[Lothrik]

I said no, because of mostly what has been already said. The current distance is necessary so that you can see what is going on around you, not any more. Zooming out more would give you a better time to react (because of what yatesri said, being in your focus), and being able to move your eyes quickly on the screen is an applicable skill to being a good player. Even if it was just an option, it would just be another easy mode crutch for people who want to warp the game as much as possible :\

Unfortunately, it's basically impossible to argue with that. You've basically put "No" into paragraph form. If you didn't notice, yatesri already agreed this was a perfectly fine idea after I responded to their post and addressed their concerns. So I don't really understand what your problem with this idea is, all you've said is that it would be a crutch, but haven't given any reasons as to HOW it would be a crutch.. given all of the other changes involved, I think you just didn't read enough of my post to fully understand what this encompasses.

If you haven't already noticed I'm asking for constructive input so I can CHANGE the idea to make it suitable and acceptable for everyone. Your post wasn't really constructive.

[Boomboom1]

Unfortunately, it's basically impossible to argue with that. You've basically put "No" into paragraph form. If you didn't notice, yatesri already agreed this was a perfectly fine idea after I responded to their post and addressed their concerns. So I don't really understand what your problem with this idea is, all you've said is that it would be a crutch, but haven't given any reasons as to HOW it would be a crutch.. given all of the other changes involved, I think you just didn't read enough of my post to fully understand what this encompasses.

If you haven't already noticed I'm asking for constructive input so I can CHANGE the idea to make it suitable and acceptable for everyone. Your post wasn't really constructive.

It wasn't meant to be. I voted no, and I gave a reason, even if it was previously stated by someone else, and even if they retracted it. I did say why it would be a crutch (requires less and slower eye movement), and read fully every post made. Simply put, I don't think it's a good idea. I think its fine the way it is. Sorry if it insults you that I have a different opinion. Have a Merry Christmas.

[Jemobulas]

I agree.

[ImpBloody]

"In addition, the following suggestions are not allowed.


"More female heroes."
"More camera zoom."

Break the rules, get your thread moved to the archive."

You might think you are the first one to think of zoom, but dude, you are probably the 1,000th.

Next time read the rules before you post.

[Maide]

"In addition, the following suggestions are not allowed.


"More female heroes."
"More camera zoom."

Break the rules, get your thread moved to the archive."

You might think you are the first one to think of zoom, but dude, you are probably the 1,000th.

Next time read the rules before you post.

Archived for these reasons.