Swiftblade - Way to good, or is it just me?

[Error]

Hello there fellow gamers and hopefully developers.
In this post I'll speak of two of Swiftblade's abilities, Blade Frenzy and Swift Slashes and explain why I mean Swiftblade is clearly overpowered because of these two.

Blade frenzy - Swiftblade works himself into a blade frenzy.
While in this state, he gains Magic Immunity and
deals high damage per second to any nearby enemy units.
Swiftblade is free to move around even while this skill
is active.

There are two major things with this skill that makes it way too good to be just a normal ability.

1. Swiftblade isn't slowed down at all when he uses this skill. This means that if he somehow manages to get close to you, you're life will be drained like hell, and running is no point since he catches up with you anyway, and if you get away from your creeps swift slashes will kill you (more about swift slashes later.)
2. Swiftblade gains magic immunity. This means that if Swiftblade uses Blade frenzy there is NO way at all to stop him. You can't stun or slow him, or use any other high damaging spells on him when he uses this ability. If you combine this with the point I listed first.. Well.. I think you can see what I mean.

Swift Slashes - Swiftblade attacks random nearby targets
with such speed that he appears to teleport
to them. Targets are randomly chosen, yet it
is possible to teleport to the same target
multiple times.

First off, this skill is an ultimate ability, I know that, but I still mean that it's too good anyways, and just unfair especially to all other intelligence and agility heroes (he does also beat the heck out of strenght heroes early game though.)

Now, the thing with this skill is that if you are alone and Swiftblade uses this skill on you - You are dead. You can say that "Hey, don't run away from the creeps, and everything is okay" but it just isn't a good enough argument. If Swiftblade uses his blade frenzy, you got to run away from him, and if he uses this ability then you are dead. It's just plain unfair, because (Especially early game) there is absolutely nothing to do other than keep a loong distance from swiftblade. If you're in the same lane as him, this means that you'll get very few last hits, and since he also got a very fast attack speed he can easily deny creeps. However, even if you stay away from him, sooner or later he'll get a chance - and BAM! You're dead...

You could argument that Swiftblade is only good early game, but heck - He's just WAY too good early game, which makes him get feeded, and, a feeded hero is good no matter where in the game you are. Therefore I mean that that is not a valid argument.
Also, you could say "Well, stay away from him then" but as I've already explained, you just loose too much on that.

Swiftblade is extremely good in all ways, pushing, ganking, soloing and just plain farming.

I personally would like to see these changes:

Blade Frenzy - Remove magic immunity and make Swiftblade go slower when he uses this ability, but increase the damage.

Swift Slashes - Rank 1: Can just hit a single target two times
Rank 2: Can just hit a single target three times
Rank 3: Can just hit a target six times

I would like too see input on this post as people of course got different meanings, but keep it constructive!

- Error

[edxs]

If the counter to a hero is a simple strategy change that doesn't ruin your chances, it's probably not overpowered. In this case, "Don't get caught alone in the woods by swiftblade".

The same thing applies to voodoo jester and moon queen, they aren't generally thought to be overpowered.

[Albain]

Swiftblade is fine.

His blade frenzy does less damage at higher levels then his regular attack.

Do not get caught out alone with Swiftblade or his ulti will own you, stay near creaps and his ulti is useless.

[Mizarus]

i survived swift blade ult lv 3 as eletrician, and i was his only target, i was also lv 16.

given that i almost died, tho my sheild wasnt up from the begning of his ult, i activated it after the 2-3 hit and managed to tank it trough, after that i quickly grapled him while my team mates arrived and nuked him to oblivion.

hes ult isnt very usefull in full team fights, or near creeps, yes its very powerfull, but its nothing compared to luna ults for exemple which is very similar in concept.

his spin is powerfull early game, or if combined with a slow/stun.

he wont be a hassle unless he is feeded, he is a fragile hero and can be easyly taken down even in a 1v1 scenario.

[Pokemaster]

He is ok, but his second spell is crap imho.

[Shai1]

Sounds like a personal problem with the hero, not a balance issue.

[Shai1]

He is ok, but his second spell is crap imho.

Also, no, it's a single target version of legionaire's spin, which does your damage, not a set 175 damage.

[SolidStroke]

Swiftblade as a whole: no escapes, stuns, silences, invisibility, snares, heals.
His ultimate: He's a damage dealer, and he deals damage. This skill has the potential to be severely outshined by other damage dealing ultimates, or to be good. It's completely fine the way it is.

[Error]

Edxs and Albain, as I've tried to explain I mean that this argument is invalid. Could you please take some time and read my post once again, as I can't bother writing all that once more? :)
Narcism: I still think that his ulti should be changed because it's just unfair. Yes, he is a damage dealer, but does that mean that he should be able to "one shot" another hero with his utli ability? Lets take the case I've talked about. Swiftblade uses Blade Frenzy which deals heavy damage, therefore I've got to run as soon as I can see him using it, because if I don't I'll be caught in the middle of it and have so little life left that at the end I will get owned anyways. So, my only shot is to run. Now this is the problem - My only shot is to run, which in turn makes me very vulnerable to his ulti. You see my point?

[Pokemaster]

Also, no, it's a single target version of legionaire's spin, which does your damage, not a set 175 damage.

It works only against heroes

[SolidStroke]

Edxs and Albain, as I've tried to explain I mean that this argument is invalid. Could you please take some time and read my post once again, as I can't bother writing all that once more? :)
Narcism: I still think that his ulti should be changed because it's just unfair. Yes, he is a damage dealer, but does that mean that he should be able to "one shot" another hero with his utli ability? Lets take the case I've talked about. Swiftblade uses Blade Frenzy which deals heavy damage, therefore I've got to run as soon as I can see him using it, because if I don't I'll be caught in the middle of it and have so little life left that at the end I will get owned anyways. So, my only shot is to run. Now this is the problem - My only shot is to run, which in turn makes me very vulnerable to his ulti. You see my point?

Error, what you're doing is evaluating skills once all criteria has been met instead of evaluating it as a whole.


1. Swiftblade isn't slowed down at all when he uses this skill. This means that if he somehow manages to get close to you, "if he manages to get close to you"
- So someone who prekites/kites/doesn't snare beforehand get this skill in the face. Sounds fine.

you're life will be drained like hell- This skill is strong early/mid-game. This balances this skill.

and running is no point since he catches up with you anywayThen drag him into your teammates, heal, attack him. DO SOMETHING. Other characters have skills they can use too.

, and if you get away from your creeps swift slashes will kill youSo, if the player:
- Didn't kite
- Didn't pre-kite
- Doesn't snare
- Is playing early-mid game
- Stays in range the whole time
- Doesn't heal
- Runs away from creeps
A character specializing in dealing damage has the potential to deal a lot of damage?

Sounds like it's balanced to me.

[stx]

i agree with Narcism, swiftblade is pretty balanced hero, he's copy of dotas juggernaut for ffs and nobody ever complained about him being overpowered. also as someone mentioned he's pretty easy to kill early game for the lack of hp... just be smart and he wont be able to get you alone

[Vadi]

Basically don't lane against him as melee and you're ok. If you do, he'll take down anyone or you'll just be sitting in the xp range and not getting any gold.

Even ranged might have trouble though if he'll get in front of you and creeps and thus be 1-2 seconds to reach you (and certain death as he walks by you).

[Rhaegor]

Swiftblade is my primary hero and I play him almost exclusivley. I can see how you feel the way you do (OP), but he is not overpowered in the least. Not to mention that his magic immunity seems broken on blade frenzy as I get damaged by spells and other AoE magic attacks all the time while in a blade frenzy.

[Nome]

Fun fact:
Blade Frenzy will not break out of Ice Imprisonment.

[Error]

EDIT: Please mark that I'm not angry or anything, I'm just trying to have a discussion (after rereading this post I understood that it seemed like I was a bit angry, but that's not the meaning ;) )

Quote:
1. Swiftblade isn't slowed down at all when he uses this skill. This means that if he somehow manages to get close to you,
"if he manages to get close to you"
- So someone who prekites/kites/doesn't snare beforehand get this skill in the face. Sounds fine.
- I can agree that kiting is an option, but then you will have to stay far away all the time. This means (as I've already explained) you'll get almost no last hits. In addition, Swiftblade is very swift (ofc) which makes it easy for him to deny, meaning that you get even less xp.
Quote:
you're life will be drained like hell
- This skill is strong early/mid-game. This balances this skill.
- This is a totally invalid argument in my opinion. Early/mid game is about everything, if your team has beaten you in early/mid game you'll loose the most of the time anyways. In addition, Swiftblade will get feeded early and mid game, he's really much higher level than everybody else late game and got better items.
Quote:
and running is no point since he catches up with you anyway
Then drag him into your teammates, heal, attack him. DO SOMETHING. Other characters have skills they can use too.

- Dragging him into your teammates is a hard ting to do because in early/mid game you are often alone or together with one other guy. Stunning him isn't any point, because 90% of the stuns in these games are not giving you any time to run because they are working for so little time (turning around, cast the spell, turn around again and run will most certainly not give you any moment.) Most heroes can't heal, and health potions gets interrupted if you get hit and attacking him is no point because you'll get owned in 1vs1 combat since he among other things got blade frenzy which makes him immune to all macig damage for five seconds.

Quote:
, and if you get away from your creeps swift slashes will kill you

- You gave no comment.

Also, you skipped some of my other points.

[Scott2334]

Just a slight note on a minor change from Dota. Swiftblade's ulti does 150-250 damage a swing, our DotA version of Swiftblade, Juggernaut would only do 150-200 damage with his omnislash, i believe the move allows 3/5/8? that means on average he's doing +25 per hit, so 75, 125, and 200 more than he used to do. I'm not claiming anything, just thought I'd point out that he is slightly different.

[Mizarus]

Just a slight note on a minor change from Dota. Swiftblade's ulti does 150-250 damage a swing, our DotA version of Swiftblade, Juggernaut would only do 150-200 damage with his omnislash, i believe the move allows 3/5/8? that means on average he's doing +25 per hit, so 75, 125, and 200 more than he used to do. I'm not claiming anything, just thought I'd point out that he is slightly different.


most heroes have a higher base damage/status then they did on dota, they scaled the damage on the skill probly to make it up for it.
its not that big of a deal anyway.

[Ulquiorra2]

theres loads of counters to swiftbalde, a invisibility item stops his ultimate and makes his frenzy harder to use, staying near a creap wave helps, burining his mana stop him from doing anything

Its same as pyro with attacks then can do upto 2500

[kingcomrade]

Swiftblade as a whole: no escapes, stuns, silences, invisibility, snares, heals.Mostly correct, except for no escapes. 5 second magic immunity and hurting anyone near you is pretty good for escaping.

I do hate heroes who have win button ults, though. Jugger and Luna are really obnoxious to play against.

[SolidStroke]

Don't worry, Error. We are in the Balance Discussion section. :)


I can agree that kiting is an option, but then you will have to stay far away all the time. This means (as I've already explained) you'll get almost no last hits. In addition, Swiftblade is very swift (ofc) which makes it easy for him to deny, meaning that you get even less xp.If you serve him up the creeps on a platter, of course he'll be strong.
- Harass him, he has no heals.
- I could craft an extensive list of characters that can lane against him 1v1, but for those that simply can't do it, whether it's for hero reasons or player reasons, switch up with your team. Someone on your team has to be able to, or else your team deserves to lose.


This is a totally invalid argument in my opinion. Early/mid game is about everything, if your team has beaten you in early/mid game you'll loose the most of the time anyways. In addition, Swiftblade will get feeded early and mid game, he's really much higher level than everybody else late game and got better items."Early/mid game is about everything" Eeeek. It's important, but it's not everything. If a team has completely molested you early game, than I can angry that a lot more times than not, it will finish in a loss. But the closer the game, the likelier it is to turn in favor of teams with characters who are experiencing their time to shine. I'm sure we can agree on that.

Dragging to teammates:
Error, that was just one of the MANY MANY MANY ways to counter Swiftblade. I'm sure any character can find at least one way to not get wtfpwned.

Ranged characters/spell casters: Harass, pre-kite
Misc: Invis, blink, escape, heal

There aren't that many characters whom do not have any of the above. Coincidentally, Swiftblade is one of them.

Pro tip: If a swiftblade somehow gets to melee range 1v1, you deserve every life point of damage you take.

[Scott2334]

Swiftblade as a whole: no escapes, stuns, silences, invisibility, snares, heals.

Haven't tested it out yet, but with Juggernaut you could begin to Blade Spin, followed by TP'ing out of the fight with scroll or boots of travel, perhaps the same for Swiftblade? I'd take that to be a nice escape

[SolidStroke]

Haven't tested it out yet, but with Juggernaut you could begin to Blade Spin, followed by TP'ing out of the fight with scroll or boots of travel, perhaps the same for Swiftblade? I'd take that to be a nice escape

TP's are available to all characters...

[Scott2334]

TP's are available to all characters...
Clearly... but a TP where you are Magic Immune? That's like turning on a Black King Bar and then Teleporting out, you wont be able to stun/hex him to stop it, only thing would probably be a lucky bash

[SolidStroke]

Clearly... but a TP where you are Magic Immune? That's like turning on a Black King Bar and then Teleporting out, you wont be able to stun/hex him to stop it, only thing would probably be a lucky bash

Well, then by your logic, anyone on a team with a Jereziah has an escape... magic immune, damage immune, ketchup, catsup. I just don't see how this is relevant.

[Villezzz]

He should either get his Healward back or his other thingy fixed, because I've never, ever seen it working for some reason.
Rest of it is completely balanced, he's been completely the same for a long time in DotA and nobody every complained.

[Scott2334]

No Need to get Angry Narcism, And this is all Theory, it worked in DotA, I'm not sure if it works in HoN...I'm just stating that if you play correctly you might have yourself a nice self escape, contrary to what you said. I was pointing out that Swiftblade could have an escape to get out of the fight if he needed it.

[Chavo]

/sign bring healing ward back

[_Archangel_]

Swiftblade - Way to good, or is it just me?

It's just you.

[Error]

Well, Narcism, you have kind of convinced me, and I'll try even harder against that piece of shitcake, Swiftblade, next time ;) (But I still think some of my other points are worthwile reading :p)

To Archangel, please read the thread before you post stupid comments, and please actually say any arguments that argue your statement. It would make everything so much better.

Edit: And Ville, even if DotA players hasn't complained that doesn't actually mean anything at all. If we always were to do as the mass did, nothing good would ever happen!

[Rawful]

This is a hero that was basically grabbed straight from DotA, except one of his spells. He is pretty well balanced.

[SuperStanos]

I'd like to see a visual when his second ability works or something, I never actually notice it going off and if it's worth taking.

[Elmy]

It's just you.

[kingcomrade]

Juggernaut has always been pretty cheesy.

[Rawrior]

4 offensive moves makes him pretty good.

[Thrift]

I had an amazing game lat night that went 85 odd mins. I farmed Swift really well was lvl25 well before most my allies. The enemies had 2 lvl 25s challenging me.

Late game he has trouble making an impact.

His blade spin can't even touch late game heroes an even loses out to mega creep waves because he doesn't regen health from spinning attacks. Someone said that it does less damage than his standard attack late game and I have to agree. spin is useless late game but great early with less success as you go forward.

I can lvl25 spin someone and they don't have to run, just hammer on him. He's magic immune not tank immune.

His Ulti is a little better but still not enough to scratch most late level heroes.

[Lexi00]

Swiftblades spin is pretty weak late game, and his ulti is worthless if theres a few heroes or a pile of creeps near by. I wouldn't call him over powered, but he certainly is tough one on one due to this one shotting ult.

[Nuk_Duck]

His spin is only good late game for dodging nukes. His ult can be nulled by hugging a few creeps or an allied tank. He's not very op.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

When more heroes with stunning ultimates that go through Blade Frenzy are implemented, he won't see nearly as much play as he does now. The only annoying thing about him is that any good player with him will Spin + TP out of harms way if you try to gank him all game long. In this sense, he kind of reminds me of Tinker with BKB :)

[biTshifT]

I think that it's all a bit of a moot point, simply because there is little point in discussing hero balance in pub games. DotA (and hence HoN) is a competitive game, and it's balanced for competative play. Many of the heroes that are easy and effective at pub bashing are poor clan heroes.

I am making the assumption that you aren't playing clan matches of course :D. Swiftblade is probably a bit too overpowered in a pub match, but then again he is easily countered by simple warding, which would ensure that you are not caught out while farming or bushing. The problem is that almost no one wards in pub games. You should try it, you'll be surprised how effective it is, and what a massive advantage it gives your team :).

And of course the other counter is to gang him with a disabler, and take advantage of his low HP pool to kill him frequently. The same goes for pretty much any DPS hero :).

[FracaDePub]

he is not OP you only need to know how to play against him

[Slamdancer]

I have played ALOT of Juggernaut games on levels from Basic Inhouses to IHCS and also some Swiftblade games in HoN.

The hero is all about mindgames. If you outsmart your opponent, he is a true force, but he is not a lategamer.

He is a very good ganker, can farm some items up, but he will never be as strong as a true carry, because his ultimate severely loses power when more than 2 people are around.

[HonStinks]

its nothing compared to luna ults for exemple which is very similar in concept.Come on man, you can have attack modifiers with Swiftblades ult and it's more controllable because the next-slash radius is smaller than with Moon Queen, who you need to level up the nuke before the ult does anything.

[Verbati]

only thing to complain about from my side is that Enchanted Marchers stack with Blade Frenzy, yay @ spinning through creeps with sick movementspeed? xD

And his utli is failry bugged... 3 times in a row last night, he ultied me when i was close to 2 other teammates, and he just kept hitting me until i died before he actually attacked someone else... that just can't be pure luck when it happens 3 times in a row..

other than that, he's fine :)

[noodle0117]

Fun fact:
Blade frenzy will continue to deal damage even when...
1. frozen by Glacius's ice imprisonment
2. rooted by Keeper of the Grove's ulti
3. Time frozen by Cronos's ultimate

Blade frenzy however can be countered by shrunken head, Jereziah's Magic bubble thingy, and any form of magic immunity.

[Mizarus]

Come on man, you can have attack modifiers with Swiftblades ult and it's more controllable because the next-slash radius is smaller than with Moon Queen, who you need to level up the nuke before the ult does anything.

you said it yourself, her ult range is much larger and she can fry a hero from a great distance, and after the ult ends she is still far away from you she can finish you up with moonbeam.

swiftblade wont be able to catch up that easily, attack modifiers dont really make that much of a diference, especially since luna can also attack during her ult, use Nullfire blade/ Lifeteal/ Bash/blink, how is swiftblade better in that respect?

[Marko_RS]

Hello there fellow gamers and hopefully developers.
In this post I'll speak of two of Swiftblade's abilities, Blade Frenzy and Swift Slashes and explain why I mean Swiftblade is clearly overpowered because of these two.

Blade frenzy - Swiftblade works himself into a blade frenzy.
While in this state, he gains Magic Immunity and
deals high damage per second to any nearby enemy units.
Swiftblade is free to move around even while this skill
is active.

There are two major things with this skill that makes it way too good to be just a normal ability.

1. Swiftblade isn't slowed down at all when he uses this skill. This means that if he somehow manages to get close to you, you're life will be drained like hell, and running is no point since he catches up with you anyway, and if you get away from your creeps swift slashes will kill you (more about swift slashes later.)
2. Swiftblade gains magic immunity. This means that if Swiftblade uses Blade frenzy there is NO way at all to stop him. You can't stun or slow him, or use any other high damaging spells on him when he uses this ability. If you combine this with the point I listed first.. Well.. I think you can see what I mean.

Swift Slashes - Swiftblade attacks random nearby targets
with such speed that he appears to teleport
to them. Targets are randomly chosen, yet it
is possible to teleport to the same target
multiple times.

First off, this skill is an ultimate ability, I know that, but I still mean that it's too good anyways, and just unfair especially to all other intelligence and agility heroes (he does also beat the heck out of strenght heroes early game though.)

Now, the thing with this skill is that if you are alone and Swiftblade uses this skill on you - You are dead. You can say that "Hey, don't run away from the creeps, and everything is okay" but it just isn't a good enough argument. If Swiftblade uses his blade frenzy, you got to run away from him, and if he uses this ability then you are dead. It's just plain unfair, because (Especially early game) there is absolutely nothing to do other than keep a loong distance from swiftblade. If you're in the same lane as him, this means that you'll get very few last hits, and since he also got a very fast attack speed he can easily deny creeps. However, even if you stay away from him, sooner or later he'll get a chance - and BAM! You're dead...

You could argument that Swiftblade is only good early game, but heck - He's just WAY too good early game, which makes him get feeded, and, a feeded hero is good no matter where in the game you are. Therefore I mean that that is not a valid argument.
Also, you could say "Well, stay away from him then" but as I've already explained, you just loose too much on that.

Swiftblade is extremely good in all ways, pushing, ganking, soloing and just plain farming.

I personally would like to see these changes:

Blade Frenzy - Remove magic immunity and make Swiftblade go slower when he uses this ability, but increase the damage.

Swift Slashes - Rank 1: Can just hit a single target two times
Rank 2: Can just hit a single target three times
Rank 3: Can just hit a target six times

I would like too see input on this post as people of course got different meanings, but keep it constructive!

- Error

Have u ever played dota? not OP at all. Remove magic immunity, are u normal?. That skill is so great and will enable swiftblade to counter missile spells, requires some skill for it. Tired of listening noobs complaining. Don't get me wrong, its just my opinion.

[kingcomrade]

I think that it's all a bit of a moot point, simply because there is little point in discussing hero balance in pub games.
Uh, wrong. Most people play pubs -> pub balance is important. I don't really care that much about how some guy in a replay is faring.

[Mizarus]

Uh, wrong. Most people play pubs -> pub balance is important. I don't really care that much about how some guy in a replay is faring.
with that i agree, most people plays pubs, games should be balanced around pub games and competitive players should adpatd to that changes, not the other way around.

[akitoes]

Swiftblade seems to be a common pick with 'good' players
Player problem not hero problem =)


with that i agree, most people plays pubs, games should be balanced around pub games and competitive players should adpatd to that changes, not the other way around.
I'm down at pub player level atm (yeah hard for my ego but heh) and no.

No explanation needed you're clever enough to figure it out and find examples

[kingcomrade]

If you outsmart your opponent, he is a true force, but he is not a lategamer.
An agility hero with a crit is not a late gamer? Uh...

[SolidStroke]

Uh, wrong. Most people play pubs -> pub balance is important. I don't really care that much about how some guy in a replay is faring.

Heroes balanced around pub play = Heroes balanced based on little teamwork and poor play

Heroes balanced around high-level play = Heroes balanced based on teamwork and being well played.

Heroes considered OP in pubs and not in high-level play mean people are playing terribly and being generally retarded. *edit* usually

[Mizarus]

Swiftblade seems to be a common pick with 'good' players
Player problem not hero problem =)


I'm down at pub player level atm (yeah hard for my ego but heh) and no.

No explanation needed you're clever enough to figure it out and find examples

i would agree on that if pub players atemped to play in the same way competitive players do
on pubs no one bother on buyng wards having the creep spawns under control or anything like that, even with stacked teams.
i dont mind if they keep balancing games on competitive terms only, and i didnt meant nerfing heroes that pub players feel overpowerd, because that would be stupid.
but metagame changes should have pubplayers on mind and not only competitive games, or else it might screw things up.

[Nidhogg]

Play Pharoah, Chronos, Magebane, Ophelia, Scout, Madman if you have trouble with Swiftblade.

Pharoah's mummies count as attackable units, if he Ults you just mummy it up.
Chronos and Magebane can both blink out mid-Slashes. If you wanna be really cute hug the side of the map, when he goes to ult you blink into the trees. Sometimes his ult follows you unless you traverse a huge distance. Yea, you might die in the trees, but he's stuck for the rest of the game. Ophelia with minions = useless Ult plus she can heal. Scout and Madman can both invis, which cancels Swift slashes.

Now, go play one of those heroes to make up for your lack of laning ability vs. Swiftblade!

[DaarkSTorM]

Yes, he is a damage dealer, but does that mean that he should be able to "one shot" another hero with his utli ability?

Pyromancer can one shot most heroes with his ult + his 2 nuke. Is he overpowered for that?

[akitoes]

Pharoah's mummies count as attackable units, if he Ults you just mummy it up.
The heck :confused:

[profuse]

If you harass swifty well enough he won't get the items he needs to actually kill anything.

[StormFlock]

I personally would like to see these changes:

Blade Frenzy - Remove magic immunity and make Swiftblade go slower when he uses this ability, but increase the damage.
- Error

If this changed, he would as worthless as void early game and beyond easy to kill. Hes already not very hard to kill if you 3 man gank him. I think your just a noob.

[SuperStanos]

with that i agree, most people plays pubs, games should be balanced around pub games and competitive players should adpatd to that changes, not the other way around.

As much as I hate the whole elitist professional gamer attitude, this really isn't correct.

Your pro gamer types are the ones that push the heroes to their limits and know them in and out. They understand game mechanics and the true potential of the heroes they're working with. Pubs usually don't know all the clever tricks.

Being accepted by the professional community also leads to a longer lasting game, which (surprise) likes a well balanced game.

[DaarkSTorM]

If this changed, he would as worthless as void early game and beyond easy to kill. Hes already not very hard to kill if you 3 man gank him. I think your just a noob.

Who isn't very hard to kill 3v1 actually...?

[SuperStanos]

Magebane if you don't have stuns

[akitoes]

invis dudes against no dust/ward/pestilence

[evotech]

I just think the spinning blades are quite strange, he should move a little around himself, but not full speed and where you want him to go, swiftblade and anyone can pretty much kill people at lv 1 easy. If you lane against polywog and swiftblade, your ****ed

[Verbati]

I just think the spinning blades are quite strange, he should move a little around himself, but not full speed and where you want him to go, swiftblade and anyone can pretty much kill people at lv 1 easy. If you lane against polywog and swiftblade, your ****ed

if you lane against those, just get someone that can stun polly and the problem is solved. he's not that op, fix his utli to actually attack more than 1 target when you stand close to 3 other and hes good

[Revolution3]

Only thing swift is good for is a few early game ganks and his ult if he runs into 1-2 enemies alone

not a good team hero and not imba

[Hydribisium]

this thread seems to be focused around his blade spin and ult being imba where the real focus should be pointed towards his healing ward replacement. as many people have stated, DotA's jugg has been around for a long time and is pretty balanced imo (never had a problem with him in DotA) but in HoN, he seems to have that extra bump against melee heros because of his counter attack. I didnt see anything worn with him having a healing ward and it never came across as being a useless skill to me because it was helpful mid/end game if you wanted a quick heal buffer while pushing without having your whole team back out to the well. As he is right now, id love to see him get his healing ward back. its hard enough for melee heros to find an opening on swift when while he is blade spinning but now you run into the issue of dealing more damage to yourself than you do to him (assuming you dont have a stun)

[Xitras]

this thread seems to be focused around his blade spin and ult being imba where the real focus should be pointed towards his healing ward replacement. as many people have stated, DotA's jugg has been around for a long time and is pretty balanced imo (never had a problem with him in DotA) but in HoN, he seems to have that extra bump against melee heros because of his counter attack. I didnt see anything worn with him having a healing ward and it never came across as being a useless skill to me because it was helpful mid/end game if you wanted a quick heal buffer while pushing without having your whole team back out to the well. As he is right now, id love to see him get his healing ward back. its hard enough for melee heros to find an opening on swift when while he is blade spinning but now you run into the issue of dealing more damage to yourself than you do to him (assuming you dont have a stun)

Healing ward is 10x better than counter attack fyi.

[Hydribisium]

Healing ward is 10x better than counter attack fyi.

more of a reason to change it back then. its a lot more useful for the team and doesnt punish melee heros from swinging. swift deals enough damage to people as it is, you shouldnt have to worry about killing yourself from attacking him

[willtsay]

why did they change healin ward D: was freaking awesome in sieges that or your about to die, slap it down and omni and cross your fingers that they aren't smart enough to hit the ward >:)

[Rekoil]

How about they make his ult his DotA ult? I hate the new one. :(

[Vibah]

Don't let him farm?

[HonStinks]

you said it yourself, her ult range is much larger and she can fry a hero from a great distance, and after the ult ends she is still far away from you she can finish you up with moonbeam.

swiftblade wont be able to catch up that easily, attack modifiers dont really make that much of a diference, especially since luna can also attack during her ult, use Nullfire blade/ Lifeteal/ Bash/blink, how is swiftblade better in that respect?Her ult range is bigger, yes, but that means that it scatters all to hell if there are enemies in the vicinity. Swift has a lot more 'focus' on this regard as his ult won't get sprayed all over the walls.

Moonbeam is ridiculous but it really has nothing to do with comparing the ults, besides the fact that you need to level it up in order to increase damage on the ult.

I don't understand how Swift would have noticeably more trouble catching someone than Moon queen? Sure her starting speed is ridiculous but Swift isn't all that far behind.

Offcourse the attack modifiers make a difference when you make like 8 or more hits on the same target with manaburn, armor reduction, cleave or anything. Again Moon Queen is ridiculous with her modifier stacked glaives but that has nothing to do with her ult.

So bottomline, Moon Queen is ridiculous in all discussed regards and every skill she has could potentially be considered to be an ult but at least Swift has a better ult in that it can be more focused to a specific target and the damage can be amplified with modifiers.

HOW TO DEAL WITH SWIFTBLADE EARLY GAME:
Read his movements. If he's going in for a spin, will it kill you? Will it get close to killing you? Can you and your lane partner/creeps kill him before he kills you? If the answer to the latter two is YES, then he might be trying to intimidate you, or he could try and kill you, and be killed in the process. If the answer to the first question is YES, then you should probably back up a bit.

Get caught in a frenzy? Don't run in a straight line, FFS. I can almost certainly guarantee, even though I don't know you and I haven't seen a replay, that you were running in a straight line. Randomize your movements, and you might be able to escape him.

Check his items. DOES HE HAVE BOOTS? If yes, then be very careful. If no, then judge your MS against his.

HOW TO DEAL WITH HIS ULT:

Realize that by the time he can kill you with that skill alone, frenzy is pretty bad at dealing damage to heroes, so much so that he'd probably be better off autoattacking you, as has been said before.

And last, but not least.

Every time I see a pub running from a Swiftblade/Jugg, I wonder to myself if they believe he's invulnerable while he's spinning. YOU CAN HIT HIM, DUMBASS. HE WILL DIE, HE HAS LOW BASE HP, AND MOST PLAYERS WILL RUSH DAMAGE ON HIM.

[Houdini1]

1. Swiftblade isn't slowed down at all when he uses this skill. This means that if he somehow manages to get close to you, you're life will be drained like hell, and running is no point since he catches up with you anyway, and if you get away from your creeps swift slashes will kill you (more about swift slashes later.)

If you slow him before he spins in DotA, the slow remains for the most part. Moreover, he has to get right next to you to kill you... depending on the situation fairly easy to get out of.

2. Swiftblade gains magic immunity. This means that if Swiftblade uses Blade frenzy there is NO way at all to stop him. You can't stun or slow him, or use any other high damaging spells on him when he uses this ability. If you combine this with the point I listed first.. Well.. I think you can see what I mean.

Sure you can. I'm not sure about in HoN, so I won't call you a noob since you might be correct for HoN, but in DotA you can definitely do things while he's spinning. For one, if luci ults on him he just stops spinning completely. If beast master ults he gets stunned. If bane ults he gets held for 5 seconds, etc etc etc. Ultimates go through puny magic immunity, that's how DotA works, idk about HoN since I haven't played enough to notice.

Blade Frenzy - Remove magic immunity and make Swiftblade go slower when he uses this ability, but increase the damage.

Quite possibly the dumbest suggestion ever. L2P

Swift Slashes - Rank 1: Can just hit a single target two times
Rank 2: Can just hit a single target three times
Rank 3: Can just hit a target six times

Maybe if you stopped massing regen items or not getting items at all or hell letting him ult you in the middle of nothing then you wouldn't make such meaningless and baseless suggestions. Wait, you based it on the fact that you get owned, ok I get that, but basically you're asking to make this hero absolutely useless. Good luck with that.

[Irsic]

Hero can't do much when abilities are on cooldown. He has low base health too.

[Houdini1]

Hero can't do much when abilities are on cooldown. He has low base health too.
And a low mana pool. Without items that increase his mana pool, you cannot combo his spells at level 6. Sounds pretty fair to me.

[Dustbin]

Realize that by the time he can kill you with that skill alone, frenzy is pretty bad at dealing damage to heroes, .

What? At level 6?

[Jo]

He's not an early game hero, he's an agi late game hero that needs superb farm to be able to work as a carrier and have an badly ported/nerfed ulti.

His spin/escape can indeed be pretty deadly if used right, especially if he's laning with an ranged stunner/slower. The counter for most melee early works well on him aswell, ranged/spells to keep him low.

[kingcomrade]

He's not an early game hero
Wrong, he's good at all stages of the game. Whirl is one of the most damaging spells in the game early on, level 2 omnislash can usually kill int and agi heroes by itself, and late game he is an agi hero with a crit.

Jugg has always been a really good hero.

[ImsuchaFatty]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but in one game I played the Swiftblade was porting while spinning. Obviously, this is incredibly annoying as you can't interrupt the port /w stuns and have to pray you kill him within the 3 sec interval he's casting the port.

[Kaylel]

if you lane against those, just get someone that can stun polly and the problem is solved. he's not that op, fix his utli to actually attack more than 1 target when you stand close to 3 other and hes good

Polly only makes it cake, but is unnecessary. He goes immune and constant DPS at full MS. At lvl 1 he already has an ult. He farms heroes while everyone else farms creeps.

[Digicon]

Even if swiftblade is "imba" early game (seems that most of the QQ'ing going on here has to deal with early game bladefrenzy/slash), he's evened out in the sense that he's trash late game. No disables, not a team player, just a flimsy DPS (at best) character.

[Voiddancer]

just you

[zp3dd4]

just you, try defiler

[Namenda]

Swiftblade actually needs a slight buff.

Compared to dota, his healing ward was way better than his new counter attack bs. It allowed a full team heal, the ability to do roshan easily, etc. Also, bladespin is nerfed; it doesn't free him from some spells like it used to in dota (i.e. glacius stun).

He was never OP in dota, only against noobs. Since he's nerfed now, nerfing him again would be insult on injury.

Fail post.

[Tupimus]

My main gripe with him is that his MS has been buffed on the way from DotA. This, in turn, makes his early game Blade Frenzy even more bloody retarded.

[mike_p]

i played a game where i saw a swiftblade use his whirlwind to negate a cursed ground tick. he was whirlwinding away in the red and i watched him waiting for the last cursed ground tick to click in. i saw the blue numbers pop up at around 600 or so and his health didnt move at all. im not sure if it was like this in dota or not but it feels very OP, is his skill supposed to be that way? i felt the spirit of his whirlwind skill was to make him untargetable by spells not completely immune to them.