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Nome
07-28-2009, 08:16 PM
This guide is written for Forest of Caldavar play on non-EM modes, though the tips and strategies can be expanded for all maps.



http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/44/icon_128.jpg

The Scout (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroview.php?hid=44)


I'm well-aware that this is the last hero most players think they need help with, but in fact, it's one of the most misplayed heroes in the game. This is perhaps the only hero that can go 10-0 and not contribute whatsoever to the team. Nearly every Scout I've played with and against has somehow managed to achieve an amazing kill-death ratio, yet has no useful items, and is still a piece of paper when he gets caught with a single disable. This guide is specifically for the discerning Scout player who wishes to forgo the kill-stealing aspect of the hero and become a true team player.

Yet, while the Scout is a capable hero in most public games, in certain lineups he becomes dead weight. This is because he has several exploitable weaknesses that cannot be addressed without a LOT of patching-up via item building. For this reason, he is also one of the most situational heroes against good players, as his window of opportunity to shine is very, very small--he is alright during the laning phase, great during the ganking phase, worthless during pushing and teamfights, and useful again during the endgame.

And finally, because the Scout is often said to be one of the most imbalanced heroes when he is in fact not, we will also be covering how to win against a good Scout player, even if it means dying repeatedly.



Introduction


Role
Skill Overlook
Skill Build
Picking a Lane

Item Builds


Starting Items
Item Decision Tree
Item Information

Complete Playguide


Complete Playguide: Game Start
Complete Playguide: Laning
Complete Playguide: Ganking
Complete Playguide: Team Fighting
Complete Playguide: Backdooring
Complete Playguide: DPSing

In-Depth


In-Depth: Vanish
In-Depth: Electric Eye
In-Depth: Marksman Shot
In-Depth: Avoiding Detection
In-Depth: Runes

Counter Scout


Pushing
Specific Counters



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Role

You are not a carry. You do not need kills. You are picked solely for your intelligence-gathering, ganking capability, and burst damage. All four of you skills are designed to make you annoying, and you should make your playstyle annoying. This is the ideal way to play Scout. But sometimes, you pick him, and you actually have smart opponents. They get Jereziah, Slither, Defiler, Demented Shaman, and Magmus--all of whom have a pretty easy counter for you. Defiler will undoubtedly buy tank items. Jereziah can heal, and his Protective Charm will stop you from casting Marksman Shot during its windup. Demented Shaman can Arcane Hide and heal, making your burst damage worthless. Magmus can stun you after you Vanish hit, or if you try to Marksman Shot, simply go invisible. Slither will murder you if you try to Vanish hit with his spell combo. In such a case, you are relegated to DPS, as chances are, your ganks won't result in kills, and that
just means you're wasting your time.

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Skill Overlook


http://i27.tinypic.com/5utqo.jpg
The skill that makes the Scout most annoying, Vanish can be cast during Vanish to keep him permanently invisible so as long as he has mana. It also makes him fiendishly fast, moving at 395 MS without Marchers. As an attack skill however, it's not so great. There is somewhat a conundrum in leveling this skill--do you need levels three and four? At level 2, you can already stay permanently invisible--the movement speed bonus doesn't change either. The +60 damage you get between LVL2 and 4 only lasts for a single attack, and only makes a real difference during a double Vanish backstab, in which you're actually doing 120 extra damage. But the double Vanish usually isn't so great, as you'll see later. On the other hand, if you plan on fully embracing the Scout role, this skill is required to conserve your mana pool, as higher levels mean you'll have to use it less. In this guide, I keep Vanish at LVL4, as it's simply more convenient to have a longer invisibility, but it's completely up to you.

http://i30.tinypic.com/117wq37.jpg
An absolute must in all games. No matter what you think, the addition of +2 stats is never worth the wealth of intelligence you gather with Electric Eye.

http://i30.tinypic.com/qogfba.jpg
Not a required skill early on, as you won't be doing any DPS. However, if you plan on playing a DPS Scout, this is really your only method of dealing damage.

http://i27.tinypic.com/1gm8n.jpg
Your finisher, harasser, and most of all, initiator. It deals a decent chunk of damage early on, but wanes in usefulness when you are forced to deal with multiple heroes.


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Skill Build

1 Electric Eye 1
2 Vanish 1
3 Vanish 2
4 Electric Eye 2
5 Vanish 3
6 Marksman Shot 1
7 Vanish 4

DPS Build
8 Improve Dexterity 1
9 Improve Dexterity 2
10 Improve Dexterity 3
11 Marksman Shot 2
12 Improve Dexterity 4
13 Electric Eye 3
14 Electric Eye 4
15 Stats 1
16 Marksman Shot 3

Ganking Build
8 Electric Eye 3
9 Electric Eye 4
10 Improve Dexterity 1
11 Marksman Shot 2
12 Improve Dexterity 2
13 Improve Dexterity 3
14 Improve Dexterity 4
15 Stats 1
16 Marksman Shot 3

Your attack damage output, while fairly high, is nothing compared to your spell-based burst damage. Improve Dexterity should therefore be an afterthought in most games. But again, if you find yourself needing DPS over burst damage, you should prioritize your own farming




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Picking a Lane


It's possible in low-mid tier games to solo mid due to Electric Eye and Vanish giving you complete rune control. Vanish can be used to deny and last-hit often if you have constant Bottle charges. On the other hand, experienced players can bully you out of most last-hits and denies. A hero like Soulstealer, for example, can completely destroy you in terms of last-hits, especially if he bothers to spend the paltry 200 gold to buy wards, forcing you not only to spend an Electric Eye to counter the ward, but to run up to it and eat nukes. However, if you can successfully solo mid, that means you're LVL6 while side lane heroes are around LVL4. This makes you an excellent ganker. You should only do this, however, if you have a teammate who is able and willing to take over solo mid after you begin the gank phase.

Normally, you should lane in Top Legion or Bottom Hellbourne. Your ability to windwalk out gives you survivability--let your carry and a babysitter go Bottom Legion or Top Hellbourne--those are the defensive lanes. Top Legion and Bottom Hellbourne also tend to be able to access runes the fastest--which is what you want to do.

Alternatively, if you are facing a weak lineup, you may go Bottom Legion or Top Hellbourne. This is because your lane mate will likely be able to fend for himself after you start ganking.





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Starting Items

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Bottle.jpg Bottle
I cannot stress enough how important this item is to a good Scout player. A Scout is fast, flexible, and knowledgeable--the Bottle is the perfect item to keep him on the battlefield for as long as possible. Each single bottle charge should result in a hero either dying or going back to base for a heal. That's every 2 minutes, clockwork. You have to be on the ball about this. Check the Rune section for more information about this.


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Item Decision Tree


1. Bottle
2. Marchers

3a. Farmed vs >2 Squishy: Codex, Shieldbreaker

3b. Farmed vs <2 Squishy: Shieldbreaker, Codex
3c. Not Farmed: Soulscream Ring x 3, Shieldbreaker

4. Marchers > Steam Boots
5. Whispering Helm
6. Savage Mace
7. Thunderclaw
8a. Need HP: Whispering Helm > Symbol of Rage, Thunderclaw > Charged Hammer
8b. Need DPS: Thunderclaw > Charged Hammer, Whispering Helm > Symbol of Rage
9. Nullfire Blade

If there is an enemy Jereziah, the first item Scout should buy is Nullfire Blade. Otherwise, it's not that great of an item on him, because it doesn't boost DPS nearly as much as other items.

If you are doing extremely well with a fast Codex (read, decimating their team completely), you may opt to simply continually upgrade the Codex. However, this is a risky move, as it makes you suck late game, so you have to keep the pressure on.
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Item Information


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Marchers.jpg Marchers (500)
I strongly suggest Marchers as the only MS booster you get if you play a ganking Scout. Enhanced Marchers are a waste as you have Vanish. Post Haste is a huge waste because your mobility is already very high, though it's fine if you're nasty rich. Steam Boots are good if you are the team DPS, but again, most of your damage comes from spell-based burst, so it's best to get Marchers and focus on something else.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Steamboots.jpg Steam Boots (500)
If you DPS, get these and leave them on STR until you have enough stats and are doing well enough that you can put them on AGI.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Soulscream.jpg Soulscream Ring (460)
If you're playing poorly, these are an excellent and extremely cheap booster for your damage and survivability.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Nuke.jpg Codex (2850)
Codex is a popular build, but it's only good against certain heroes. If the enemy team has a Glacius or another glass hero, a Codex is a pretty good choice--however, it's an all-in choice, as it's expensive, and severely limits his late-game capability if said target manages to obtain a Shaman's Headdress or HP. If you're doing extremely well early on, it's advisable to buy a single level of Codex. In general, if you can Codex before 20 min, it's cool.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Pierce.jpg Shieldbreaker (4420)
The preferred DPS item, the -armor effects amplify your backstab damage, making your initial burst damage even higher. Despite the high recipe cost, the effect makes it very cost-effective per point of damage.


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_WhisperingHelm.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_LifeSteal4.jpg Whispering Helm(1850) and Symbol of Rage (6150)
Both increase your staying power within fights.


http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Lightning1.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Lightning2.jpg Thunder Claw(3250) and Charged Hammer (6550)
Gives you very effective creep control, allowing you to push lanes quickly. A must for DPS builds. Sorry about the Thunderclaw image--for some reason that's just how small the official picture is.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_ManaBurn1.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_ManaBurn2.jpg Nullfire Blade (3300) and Geometer's Bane (5800)
Worthless early on if you're not fighting a Jereziah, as you can't really finish anyone off by yourself with DPS. But once you have good damage and survivability, this will allow you to get a kill for every charge. Upgrade it to Geometer's Bane when all charges are used.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Splash.jpg Runed Axe (4350)
If for some horrendous reason you've managed to farm so much that you can afford a Runed Axe very early in the game, then by all means stack as many as you can. Cleave is affected by the backstab damage from Vanish, so you can actually do an extremely damaging, cleaving backstab to the entire enemy team.




A ganking Scout is NOT an item-dependent hero. This is a bit weird, because he tends to make a lot of money from kills. Oh well. if you find that you're making a lot of money, get creative and do whatever with your amazing DPS powers. This is unlikely to happen against good players though.


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Complete Playguide: Game Start


Buy a Bottle and go immediately to top river and place an Electric Eye on the north ledge next to the rune spawn spot. Wait here until 0:00 for the first rune. Grab it if there is one--if not, ping it to your team and go back to lane and try to help block creeps.


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Complete Playguide: Laning


Hang back until you're LVL2 and have Vanish. Once you have Vanish, you can start going for creep kills and denies more aggressively. Do not be afraid to use Vanish to last-hit--remember, Vanish backstab damage affects allied creeps and buildings too, unlike DotA. At this point, unless you have a very strong lanemate, it's useless to use Vanish to harass, as it doesn't do enough damage by itself. Use it to get creeps that would otherwise be denied, etc. Make sure you get the catapult kills and denies with it, as they give more money and XP than normal creeps. Every 2 minutes, take a look at your Electric Eye (you should only have 1 right now) to see if the rune's there. If it's there, grab it--if mid is weak, go gank, otherwise return to lane. Continue this until you're LVL6. Alert your allies that you've reached 6, and will now be ganking full-time.


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Complete Playguide: Ganking


Place a second Electric Eye on a ledge at the bottom river rune spot ASAP. Gank mid and bottom. For mid, ask your ally to let him push a bit--once he's off his side of the high ground, initiate the gank with a Marksman Shot. The mid player should attack and nuke simulatenously to quickly finish him off. At bottom, do the same thing--initiate with Marksman shot, using Vanish if needed to finish off. If there is a low HP hero tower-camping, you can go behind the trees on Hellbourne's super neutrals to fire off a Marksman Shot. If this doesn't kill the hero, he will surely run to base--Vanish right away and intercept him. If you laned and ganked correctly, you should have a Codex very soon. Continue until you do, and buy Marchers while you're at it. Continue to gank. Place additional Electric Eyes near their jungle farm spots, especially if their defensive lanes are neutral-pulling or jungling.


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Complete Playguide: Team Fighting


Vanish and shadow the enemy team until you or an ally initiates. Target a weak hero with Marksman Shot, Codex him, and Vanish/backstab if needed. If a hero is EVER at all even a few steps away from the rest of his team, target with Marksman Shot and pick him off with your team. If pushing, you should use your intelligence-gathering to find a hero solo-farming. Gather your team, gank, and then push.


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Complete Playguide: Backdooring


If it's super-late-game, you are one of the best backdoor heroes. With an excellent crit and evade, you can take down towers and barracks quite quickly. Carry a Homecoming Stone, and move towards the target buildings. Wait until there's no one there--the enemy team might be pushing. Have your team defend on high ground and stall while you attack. If the enemy team is pushing too strong, teleport back to help your team. If they are failing, continue to backdoor until they return. If you do enough damage, chances are they will rush back, and you'll have foiled a push attempt and pissed them off greatly.



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Complete Playguide: DPSing



If you're playing a DPS Scout everything changes. You should stick to your lane as much as possible--at some point, your lanemate should leave and go gank, and at best, your opponents will leave too thinking you're an idiot for not ganking. At this point, just carry a Homecoming Stone and farm, farm, farm, farm, farm. Have Electric Eyes placed at points where you can spot incoming ganks, and simply Vanish out when heroes come near. You should continue indefinitely until either your team requires your help badly or the enemy team pushes.
Once you have the items, Vanish in during fights and target casters first. Make sure your team follows when you fight--the only thing worse than a killstealing Scout is a team that doesn't support a proper DPS'ing Scout by following through.



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In-Depth: Vanish


A good Scout player never exits Vanish until he can Vanish again right after--always keep this in mind. However, to get some extra damage in, Vanish, wait til the cooldown is over, backstab, then immediately Vanish again and backstab again. While this makes you vulnerable, it gives you some extra damage against easily-killable heroes that can help Marksman Shot or an allied nuke finish. Don't forget that Vanish does physical damage--it will affect magic immune units, as well as buildings. A LVL4 Vanish Scout will ALWAYS get tower kills and denies if well-played.



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In-Depth: Electric Eye


Check my ward guide here for general placement help: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=4839
Because electric eyes have less sight range and can be killed if an enemy is in the reveal range, you should adjust it slightly. Basically, place them on ramps near neutral camps. It's also good to get one in on high ground during a base push--this way, you can tell if they're clumping, or are about to initiate (ie, with Behemoth blink). Placing one early on the mid ramp can help your mid solo as well, since it gives sight on high ground. If you have an ally like Devourer (or, if an enemy Devourer is solo mid), that's invaluable.

Putting them in the enemy forest is a great way for a ganking Scout to catch junglers. On the other hand, if you're playing a DPS Scout, you can become impossible to gank if you place an Electric Eye at each of the major jungle entrances and just Vanish out the second heroes head to your position. This can become extremely frustrating for an enemy gank team.


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In-Depth: Marksman Shot


When aiming with Marksman Shot, you should always place yourself in such a position that you cover whatever escape route you anticipate them running. At earlier levels, it has a long wind-up time--during this period, if they escape into fog, it cancels. Therefore, wait behind them. At higher levels, you'll want to stand fairly close to them--this way, you can Codex and finish quickly. In ganks and team fights, you should always fire Marksman Shot from Vanish--you are invisible until the shot, and while this keeps you from doing a double backstab, it is the most effective way to initiate. When chasing fleeing heroes, Vanish and run ahead of the hero, then Marksman Shot to slow them enough for your team to catch.


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In-Depth: Avoiding Detection


Detection kills Scouts. It's as simple as that. Before running into a battle, click every single one of your enemies and check to make they don't have any form of detection. It's best to click early on, because Wards of Revelation can be dropped, and you want to check early and often so you can guess where the wards are being dropped. Dust is probably the most common detector; good players will Dust around a hero the second they see a Marksman Shot target appear--chances are, you're gonna want that kill, so you'll still be channeling while they bolt at you to stop you. To avoid this, you should constantly steer clear of the detection holder. You may wish to run to a faraway place, use Marksman Shot to lure him to use Dust, then cancel Marksman Shot and reposition yourself to a better place before using it again.

If you are detected, especially by Dust, abuse your Vanish speed to get out. Chances are, your opponents will try to flank you, so stick to unorthodox routes. You don't always have to be on the move, either--hide yourself behind some trees and wait out the Dust effect before moving again.






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In-Depth: Runes


Double Damage: THE best rune you can get. Pop this before hitting Vanish. Your backstab damage out of Vanish will be affected by Double Damage.
Haste: Pop this if Marksman Shot and whatever allied nukes used can't finish your opponent off. Use it to chase and finish.
Illusion: Worthless except to Scout, but you should have Electric Eyes covering everything anyway.
Regeneration: Pretty obvious.
Invisibility: Only get this if you desperately need Bottle charges. Otherwise, let an ally get it. Alternatively, you can use it as a getaway tool after a double Vanish backstab.




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Counter-Scout: Pushing


As we pointed out in the beginning, Scout is a hero with a tiny window of opportunity, who is good at only a few stages of the fight, but dead weight to his team during others. The best way to play against a Scout is to end the game before the game starts. General competitive picking will defeat a good Scout--a team with Defiler, for example, should never lose against a Scout simply because Defiler's pushes become unstoppable in an effective 4v5, and Scout cannot run into Defiler's ultimate without dying in seconds. Jereziah, Voodoo Jester, and Demented Shaman are also great counters, as they can heal players the Scout harasses with his Marksman Shot. Each push you make should net you a gain--whether in hero kills or in buildings destroyed. Preferably, you should be pushing when your solo hits level 11, and sometimes even before. Certain heroes of course can't push--if you're got a team of squishes and no heals, you're probably screwed. Next time pick good heroes!

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Counter-Scout: Specific Counters


Defiler: Pushes fast and hard. Cannot be stopped in an effective 4v5, because Scout can't do anything against a pushing Defiler, especially one backed by healers.
Pestilence: His ultimate is a great detector, which can be avoided by Vanishing right away, but keeps a Scout from performing DPS duties, as the damage amp on him is too high.
Jereziah: Amazing single-target heal, a buff that defends against Marksman Shot, and an ultimate that makes the entire team immune to physical damage.
Demented Shaman: Arcane Hide makes Marksman Shot only deal 50% of its normal damage. Constant team heals make him a huge pain during pushes.

willtsay
07-28-2009, 08:54 PM
ya he's not a carry, although he can act as a secondary dps
i find that i play him like i would NA -> less burst but better chasing

nice guide ;D

Nome
07-29-2009, 12:15 AM
ya he's not a carry, although he can act as a secondary dps
i find that i play him like i would NA -> less burst but better chasing

nice guide ;D

Yeah, a lot of people compare him to NA.
He's got fairly similar gank role, though he trades laning ability and teamfight disables for intelligence gathering, which isn't that bad.

BleBla
07-29-2009, 01:46 AM
I prefer a scout with difusal blade+runed axe, it's more effective depending on the game.

willtsay
07-29-2009, 01:50 AM
null fire definitely works i guess pretty easy build up dispel is always rocksauce

Nome
07-29-2009, 01:53 AM
The main problem with going Nullfire is that you won't be slapping anyone for extended periods of time. The purge is nice, and a must if you're going up against Jereziah, but for pure damage output Shieldbreaker is still your best bet.

Avenu
07-29-2009, 02:23 AM
This is a great guide. Really got some good pointers.

echo1
07-29-2009, 02:39 AM
Amazing guide imo. advocates an actually intelligent use of a hero that lets face it gets picked almost every game by someone who is just stat whoring.

EDIT: totally agree with the comparison to NA, while scout doesn't have the cc that NA has, the intel he can provide makes up for it. I find that if you set up a ward in the forest on bot(legion)/top(hellbourne) it can really help your carry avoid getting ganked like crazy. Obviously mia calls are a better preventative measure but with only pubs to play in, where mias do not get called, this trick helps quite often.

Giraffe
07-29-2009, 03:33 AM
Hey I used this guide and thought it was extremely handy but, I never used eletric eye for much besides rune camping. How should I use it properly?

Miheko
07-29-2009, 03:35 AM
Hey I used this guide and thought it was extremely handy but, I never used eletric eye for much besides rune camping. How should I use it properly?

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=4839

also use it in an area around a team fight before initiating the fight when they have someone with stealth or assassin's shroud

Nome
07-29-2009, 03:37 AM
Hey I used this guide and thought it was extremely handy but, I never used eletric eye for much besides rune camping. How should I use it properly?

Check my ward guide (in my sig) for good warding locations. Because electric eyes have less sight range and can be killed if an enemy is in the reveal range, you should adjust it slightly. Basically, place them on ramps near neutral camps.

It's also good to get one in on high ground during a base push--this way, you can tell if they're clumping, or are about to initiate (ie, with Behemoth blink).

Placing one early on the mid ramp can help your mid solo as well, since it gives sight on high ground.

If you have an ally like Devourer, that's invaluable.

kluu
07-29-2009, 08:17 AM
i remember playing with you

EnragedCamel
07-29-2009, 01:05 PM
Scout is overall pretty useless. People complain about him a lot, but the thing is that it is possible to get a 10-0 score and yet contribute nothing to your team's effort to win the map.

SimpleFear
07-29-2009, 01:40 PM
Scout is overall pretty useless. People complain about him a lot, but the thing is that it is possible to get a 10-0 score and yet contribute nothing to your team's effort to win the map.

completely false if you know how to play scout as a team player.

Free wards = free runes and map control
Ult - drops enemy hero to 50% (almost always) and slows letting the rest of the team finish them off.
Invis - huge movement speed boost for chasing and intelligence/map control
Critical strike - with rune axe and vanish can wipe out entire wave of enemy creeps in one strike, making him a pretty decent push hero
Vanish attack bonus - affects buildings, 600 dmg a strike on enemy structures is almost incomparable.

EnragedCamel
07-29-2009, 04:21 PM
completely false if you know how to play scout as a team player.

A 10-0 score on a scout almost always translates to a scout who is stealing kills with his ult or vanish attack during team battles. Since scout is not a carry, this is a complete waste. This is why scouts with high number of wins cause their team to lose the match.



Free wards = free runes and map controlGood players will put wards of their own next to runes. The fact that you have a ward there doesn't necessarily mean you will get the rune (especially if the mid solo hero is good).



Ult - drops enemy hero to 50% (almost always) and slows letting the rest of the team finish them off.50 percent? Almost never. More like 65 or 70. If you are targeting a player who is already hurt, sure, but you have to take mitigation into account. The fact that the tooltip lists ~300 damage doesn't translate to 300 damage on a hero.



Invis - huge movement speed boost for chasing and intelligence/map controlInvisibility is good, but not that great. There are plenty of counters to invisibility, not just in terms of heroes (pestilence comes to mind, and any hero with a decent disable), but also items.



Critical strike - with rune axe and vanish can wipe out entire wave of enemy creeps in one strike, making him a pretty decent push heroExcept scout is not really an item dependent hero. If you have enough gold to buy a runed axe, you are doing something horribly wrong (unless it is a complete steamroll, in which case none of this matters). Your job is to gather intelligence and assist with ganks, not to push lanes or solo the other team.

Nome
07-29-2009, 04:23 PM
A 10-0 score on a scout almost always translates to a scout who is stealing kills with his ult or vanish attack during team battles. Since scout is not a carry, this is a complete waste. This is why scouts with high number of wins cause their team to lose the match.

Good players will put wards of their own next to runes. The fact that you have a ward there doesn't necessarily mean you will get the rune (especially if the mid solo hero is good).

50 percent? Almost never. More like 65 or 70. If you are targeting a player who is already hurt, sure, but you have to take mitigation into account. The fact that the tooltip lists ~300 damage doesn't translate to 300 damage on a hero.

Invisibility is good, but not that great. There are plenty of counters to invisibility, not just in terms of heroes (pestilence comes to mind, and any hero with a decent disable), but also items.

Except scout is not really an item dependent hero. If you have enough gold to buy a runed axe, you are doing something horribly wrong (unless it is a complete steamroll, in which case none of this matters). Your job is to gather intelligence and assist with ganks, not to push lanes or solo the other team.

If I'm not mistaken, Scout's Eyes will reveal enemy wards. Scout also has a base 315 movement speed, not including Vanish, so that translates to him indeed getting all the runes.

EnragedCamel
07-29-2009, 04:53 PM
Scout also has a base 315 movement speed, not including Vanish, so that translates to him indeed getting all the runes.

Umm, scout spends most of his time walking around the map gathering intelligence (scouting, if you will), which means that the solo hero in the middle will always have the upper hand for runes.

Also, the fact that your eye can see wards doesn't mean much. It is possible for the two to be out of range of each other, and still see the rune.

Nome
07-29-2009, 04:55 PM
Umm, scout spends most of his time walking around the map gathering intelligence (scouting, if you will), which means that the solo hero in the middle will always have the upper hand for runes.

Also, the fact that your eye can see wards doesn't mean much. It is possible for the two to be out of range of each other, and still see the rune.

Erm, runes matter the most during laning. A good scout will always grab the rune within 15 seconds of it appearing (that's only if it doesn't spawn right next to him), then go gank within the next minute, and be back before the next rune spawns.

Trust me on this one.

Kry1
07-29-2009, 04:56 PM
What happens if you try to place a fifth electric eye down? Does it destroy the first one you placed, the last one you placed, or randomly?

The reason I ask is that the true sight provided by them makes them a decent asset in teamfights, but I know you can't just kill your own wards (I've tried).

Nome
07-29-2009, 05:02 PM
What happens if you try to place a fifth electric eye down? Does it destroy the first one you placed, the last one you placed, or randomly?

The reason I ask is that the true sight provided by them makes them a decent asset in teamfights, but I know you can't just kill your own wards (I've tried).

I think it replaces the first one you put down. It is indeed annoying to not be able to suicide them.

VoodooDog
07-29-2009, 08:36 PM
"Carry a Homecoming Stone, and move towards the target buildings"
u mean i wait in the enemy base between the towers and building or i wait in the lane between the towers ?
they will see me if i run in ?

why i should go bot hellburne and top legion ? bot hell and top legion means to fight vs the towers. isnt it better to fight with the towers (bot legion and top hellburn) to win vs range heros ?

thanks for that greate guide. i will try it out if i can play again (patch wont work)

btw. u cant place a fith. it say something like (u have not enough eyes to place)

bloodmonkey
07-31-2009, 07:44 PM
good guide, except you encouraged back dooring....

Nome
07-31-2009, 08:05 PM
good guide, except you encouraged back dooring....

It costs 135 gold to counter a backdoor.

Feriluce
07-31-2009, 08:55 PM
It costs 135 gold to counter a backdoor.

But then I cant get my uber1337supa itemz!?!


Anyway. You say that Codex is very situational, and not always a good choice, yet further down in the guide you seem to assume that codex is always built. Which one of those statements do you mean?

Nome
07-31-2009, 09:17 PM
But then I cant get my uber1337supa itemz!?!


Anyway. You say that Codex is very situational, and not always a good choice, yet further down in the guide you seem to assume that codex is always built. Which one of those statements do you mean?

It's situational. I just mention Codex so that players who have it will know to use it.

`M`ao
07-31-2009, 10:35 PM
Rubbish guide.
2512423 damage for 0 seconds is still 0 damage.
Your item build does nothing for his glassiness.

Nome
07-31-2009, 10:37 PM
Rubbish guide.
2512423 damage for 0 seconds is still 0 damage.
Your item build does nothing for his glassiness.

You act like he's supposed to take damage =P

Brannock
07-31-2009, 11:12 PM
How do you counter someone who's actively warding/dusting? What about a hero who's carrying Bound Eye that you/your team just can't seem to kill?

Mitzy
08-03-2009, 12:38 AM
Awsome guide, i'll make sure i try this setup out next time i play it and see how it works out.
i do however wonder about what "Brannock" asked, as that usually is what screws me up.
scout is fragile while out of vanish, if they enemy team can counter my vanish with an eye or ward, then what?

Nome
08-03-2009, 01:07 AM
There's nothing you can do at that point other than to hang back and Marksman Shot to initiate or finish a kill.

That, my friends, is exactly why Scout is considered a bad pick for competitive games, and is why he REALLY needs to shine during the ganking phase to make any difference.

Fuga
08-03-2009, 10:21 AM
A pro friend of mine said that no one should ever buy runed axes cause they suck and I thought you were pro but you say to buy one. What gives?

Nome
08-03-2009, 12:22 PM
A pro friend of mine said that no one should ever buy runed axes cause they suck and I thought you were pro but you say to buy one. What gives?

This guide was written back when Runed Axes were 300 range and cleaved creeps when hitting buildings.

Also, read what I wrote for it:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/Combative/item10runedaxe.jpg Runed Axe
If for some horrendous reason you've managed to farm so much that you can afford a Runed Axe, then by all means stack as many as you can. Cleave is affected by the backstab damage from Vanish, so you can actually do an extremely damaging, cleaving backstab to the entire enemy team.


You should get them only if you're winning so hard it doesn't matter.

valiance
08-04-2009, 05:51 AM
Like this guide. Shieldbreaker is great on him since its a great item generally and his improved dexterity is basically jinada. My instinct would be to get savage mace on him (like bounty hunter) after shieldbreaker

Tehleteness
08-06-2009, 08:57 AM
The main problem with going Nullfire is that you won't be slapping anyone for extended periods of time. The purge is nice, and a must if you're going up against Jereziah, but for pure damage output Shieldbreaker is still your best bet.

Shieldbreaker is awesome. The increased backstab damage (with crits) scares the crap out of most int/agi heroes. I usually buy marchers right off the bat and place an electric eye on one of the rune spawns. That way, your teammate(s) at mid that bottled have a huge advantage over the other team's bottlers. I've noticed that after getting Marchers and Shieldbreaker, a double backstab usually brings an enemy hero down to half health.

The trick is to keep the enemy heroes in your lane on the defensive, feeding you to an early gold/item/level advantage. Scout keeps enemies wary on his own, so another intimidating hero, preferably with stuns, is very good at this.

Edit: After Shieldbreaker, I usually go for Runed Axe, though, the game usually ends before this happens.

A little contribution =)

Nome
08-06-2009, 12:21 PM
Shieldbreaker is awesome. The increased backstab damage (with crits) scares the crap out of most int/agi heroes. I usually buy marchers right off the bat and place an electric eye on one of the rune spawns. That way, your teammate(s) at mid that bottled have a huge advantage over the other team's bottlers. I've noticed that after getting Marchers and Shieldbreaker, a double backstab usually brings an enemy hero down to half health.

The trick is to keep the enemy heroes in your lane on the defensive, feeding you to an early gold/item/level advantage. Scout keeps enemies wary on his own, so another intimidating hero, preferably with stuns, is very good at this.

Edit: After Shieldbreaker, I usually go for Runed Axe, though, the game usually ends before this happens.

A little contribution =)

I typically don't get both Shieldbreaker and Runed Axe. Assuming the mechanics are identical to DotA, it's a bit of a waste. The cleave from Runed Axe bypasses armor, while Shiledbreaker reduces armor. So the extra damage you deal with Shieldbreaker doesn't make it into the cleave.

EnragedCamel
08-06-2009, 12:34 PM
There's nothing you can do at that point other than to hang back and Marksman Shot to initiate or finish a kill.

That, my friends, is exactly why Scout is considered a bad pick for competitive games, and is why he REALLY needs to shine during the ganking phase to make any difference.

In my experience it's not just competitive games that scout has trouble in. If your teammates are even semi-competent, then scout won't be able to do anything.

In this case, being semi-competent involves keeping yourself at near-full HP instead of pushing your lane while injured and asking the scout to come gank you. Also paying attention to the icon above your head helps to see when you're about to be sniped.

Honestly you don't even really need dust/wards to counter him. Just make sure you have enough hp regen to heal through his damage at the beginning and he will stop being a problem because he won't get any kills early game.

Electrician
08-06-2009, 12:34 PM
runed axe is useless

scout doesnt need the regen (1750 gold wasted on regen)

get savage mace for the huge damage buff it gives +80 damage and 35% +100 physical damge and stun 0,1 sec (interupt their recall 100% of the time)

after that you could get runed axe, but you will never get it

Emiscary
08-08-2009, 06:55 PM
I often toy with the idea of getting null talismans instead of soulscream rings for the purposes of spamming my ultimate when I Scout. Worth it?

Nome
08-08-2009, 07:11 PM
I often toy with the idea of getting null talismans instead of soulscream rings for the purposes of spamming my ultimate when I Scout. Worth it?

No. Spam usually implies that you'll be staying in a lane and using it to harass (like Sniper did in DotA)--that's the wrong way to play. The only other time you can spam it is at LVL16, when the cooldown is low, but by then your base stat growth should cover the mana costs, especially if you still have your Bottle.

LiquorQ
08-08-2009, 08:02 PM
FINALLY a scout guide that encourages the scout to be USEFUL. I can't stress enough how many times I've seen a scout just vanish the entire game, only to come out of it to ks an opposing hero. I've only seen him played as dead weight at this point.

Nome
08-08-2009, 08:06 PM
In my experience it's not just competitive games that scout has trouble in. If your teammates are even semi-competent, then scout won't be able to do anything.

In this case, being semi-competent involves keeping yourself at near-full HP instead of pushing your lane while injured and asking the scout to come gank you. Also paying attention to the icon above your head helps to see when you're about to be sniped.

Honestly you don't even really need dust/wards to counter him. Just make sure you have enough hp regen to heal through his damage at the beginning and he will stop being a problem because he won't get any kills early game.

This is debatable I think. The Scout is basically a moving Marksman platform--you're right in that attentive players will notice a big thing over their head, but it's still a big chunk of damage. The key is to everyone converge on the "gankee" at the same time so that he doesn't quite have anywhere to run.

But you're right, the Scout is fairly weak against good defensive players. The intel from E. Eye is still great though.


FINALLY a scout guide that encourages the scout to be USEFUL. I can't stress enough how many times I've seen a scout just vanish the entire game, only to come out of it to ks an opposing hero. I've only seen him played as dead weight at this point.

Glad you like it = )

Jo
08-08-2009, 08:47 PM
The first reasonable guide I've seen on scout. he's NA with less team fight ability (no aoe stun) but more map control (electric eye).

Still consider him a weak pick.

world_famous
08-08-2009, 09:31 PM
lol my brother used this guy and went 6-2 but the host banned him because he said codex isnt a real item to get with scout, sadly the host was a 1-5 madman

Jo
08-09-2009, 12:24 AM
lol my brother used this guy and went 6-2 but the host banned him because he said codex isnt a real item to get with scout, sadly the host was a 1-5 madman

6-2 doesen't mean anything with scout and neither does 1-5 madman so if you use some words instead to let us know what you mean that would be helpfull. atm I got no idea what angle you're working.

LiquorQ
08-09-2009, 12:59 AM
6-2 doesen't mean anything with scout and neither does 1-5 madman so if you use some words instead to let us know what you mean that would be helpfull. atm I got no idea what angle you're working.
k;d ratio.

Tupimus
08-09-2009, 06:37 AM
Although I played Scout like this (although leaning to build him more like support) even before I happened to stumble upon this guide, I must admit that it's good.

Personally I'd say that Codex is VERY situational, even more so than you said. Often enough your mana really can't support it's use early game, even if you have the bottle you should - you just might be better off using the mana for more Marksman Shots and generally surviving with Vanish.

Also, there's the problem that you often just aren't fed enough to rush a Codex in 20 minutes :(

But still, great guide. Luffs u, Nome.

Jo
08-09-2009, 09:24 AM
k;d ratio.

If you're serious, I think it was pretty obvious he was talking about K;D ratio, the question is what point he's trying to make with them. A hero with 6-2 can be anything from very weak to very strong and same deal with a 1-6. (hint: dota isn't a q3 deathmatch)

Nome
08-09-2009, 11:46 AM
Although I played Scout like this (although leaning to build him more like support) even before I happened to stumble upon this guide, I must admit that it's good.

Personally I'd say that Codex is VERY situational, even more so than you said. Often enough your mana really can't support it's use early game, even if you have the bottle you should - you just might be better off using the mana for more Marksman Shots and generally surviving with Vanish.

Also, there's the problem that you often just aren't fed enough to rush a Codex in 20 minutes :(

But still, great guide. Luffs u, Nome.

I'm going to be going on a 20 game Scout spree sometime in games of all levels so I can update the guide with enough (anecdotal) experience so it fits premium status.

My opinion of the Scout has changed dramatically since I wrote this guide; in particular, I find him a lot less useful than I thought @_@

Anyway, off to confirm this!

Fuga
08-09-2009, 12:03 PM
Don't waste your time with that, you should make guides for useful balanced heroes like Thunderbringer, Arachna or Madman!

Nome
08-09-2009, 12:51 PM
Already have a Thunderbringer guide up =P

Reworking this and the Moon Queen guide are my top priorities for Guides section right now, as they seem to be the heroes most players need help with.

I'm avoiding a Madman guide because he's probably going to be nerfed/changed again = /

china
08-09-2009, 04:23 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Scout's Eyes will reveal enemy wards. Scout also has a base 315 movement speed, not including Vanish, so that translates to him indeed getting all the runes.

Enemy wards are placed a cliff higher than your own.

Nome
08-09-2009, 04:29 PM
Enemy wards are placed a cliff higher than your own.
Yes, but...

1. Depends how you ward.
2. You need a ranged hero to kill wards anyway.
3. Most competitive teams will buy a Winged Courier, which can scout them out.

Betatest_
08-09-2009, 04:58 PM
Since when is backdooring allowed, am I missing something here?

KnightDavion
08-09-2009, 05:11 PM
As I understand it backdooring is completely allowed, get the win any way you can if you can. That is probably the best soloution to the debate and I respect the game makers for having the balls to sanction it.

Now back to the guide. AWESOME ****ING GUIDE!!!!!!!!!

Seriously it was so easy to understand and use i was able to be effective on my first try with him, and its only getting better.


A couple things I want to add to this guide...hopefully you can add them to the first post:

1. Scout can be considered a GREAT healer via the garunteed rune whoring. What I do is use the voice chat to tell everyone i might be giving them a bottle and to use it up fast and pass it back so I can refill. Once they get used to it they will LOVE you for it, and it make a very large difference since it saves many trips back to the base for healing. It takes some getting used to, and noobs have problems understanding and passing it back, which can annoy, but I think as the game ages a bit it will be common practice to use scout as a portable hm/mana fountain. Keep in mind all of this can be done IN ADDITION to everything else scout can do.

2. At lvl 7+ scout can safely free farm any lane he chooses, forcing the enemy team to react and pay attention to you, thus wasting time, OR they ignore you and you push alone and free farm mass gold. Its a win win situation..the same concept you were talking about with backdooring applies early on as well.


Now I have a question: What are the best items to get if you plan to backdoor late in the game? I have survival problems, not sure where I am going wrong.

china
08-09-2009, 05:12 PM
Yes, but...

1. Depends how you ward.
2. You need a ranged hero to kill wards anyway.
3. Most competitive teams will buy a Winged Courier, which can scout them out.

Oh, my point was that Electric Eye cannot identify enemy wards if their wards are higher than your own. So it's useless when it comes to eliminating rune wards.

Emiscary
08-09-2009, 05:47 PM
No. Spam usually implies that you'll be staying in a lane and using it to harass (like Sniper did in DotA)--that's the wrong way to play. The only other time you can spam it is at LVL16, when the cooldown is low, but by then your base stat growth should cover the mana costs, especially if you still have your Bottle.

I suppose I didn't explain properly. Once I hit level 6 with Scout I prettymuch immediately start ganking, and in most 3 on 2 ganks I find myself wishing I had the mana needed to pop off my ultimate one more time. It usually means the difference between a double tap and a single kill.

Nome
08-09-2009, 09:42 PM
I suppose I didn't explain properly. Once I hit level 6 with Scout I prettymuch immediately start ganking, and in most 3 on 2 ganks I find myself wishing I had the mana needed to pop off my ultimate one more time. It usually means the difference between a double tap and a single kill.

Ah. Are you buying Bottle and getting all the runes? I usually find that I've always got the mana for everything as long as I get runes.

Betatest_
08-10-2009, 12:13 AM
Just sigh if backdooring is allowed

KnightDavion
08-10-2009, 06:19 AM
Just sigh if backdooring is allowed

Why? Like everything else, BDing is a strategy, and there are plenty of ways to counter it.

Deltae
08-10-2009, 06:51 AM
Aaaahhhhh, big red text blinding my eyes!

Oh well, won't take look at it right now then, wish you luck improving wthose things that you think you have done wrong ;o

ChukNorris
08-10-2009, 09:02 AM
100% agree with you =DD
Perfetct Guide

Karacis
08-10-2009, 06:23 PM
Awesome guide! Keep up the good work Nome. I read this whole thing and really enjoyed it. I look forward to whatever changes you make, or new guides you may be working on. Thanks man :)

ElementUser
08-10-2009, 06:26 PM
Yay Nome's guide :D. Very similar to Bounty Hunter play, not much to comment on here :)

Nome
08-10-2009, 07:46 PM
Alright guys, this guide is going into update mode. Things will be missing, jumbled around, and have horrible formatting for a while.

KnightDavion
08-10-2009, 08:11 PM
Alright guys, this guide is going into update mode. Things will be missing, jumbled around, and have horrible formatting for a while.

As long as you are updating take a look at post 54 and see if any of that info could be integrated or noted. Again...awesome ****ing guide.

Now I have a few questions about your experiences online playing a scout in this manner. I find that a lot of my teamates ***** at me all game for "wasting time" scouting them, placing wards etc. I try and gank as early as possible but honestly a lot of games I find myself soloing mid using rune control via wards and windwalk. So when level 6 rolls around (really fast) I am stuck guarding mid tower instead of being off getting killshots.

Hey if you are actually still reading this you might want to mention how important it is to drop wards during fights. ITs rare not to be facing at least 1 invis hero and your wards nullify a major aspect of their strategy.

thanks!

KnightDavion
08-11-2009, 05:46 PM
More info: Item selection.

What items should I really be getting? I dont think Stygian is the way to go. The scout is never going to be visible for very long so the only thing it helps on is the invis-crit dps, which by the time you get stygian is basically worthless.

I get Bottle first, then blue Steam Boots, then Preserverance > Linkins. This build lets me spam my level 3 ult the its intended to be spammed and it provides you with EXCELLENT protection against annoying spells that can sometimes kill you in one hit ie ogre magi / pyro etc etc. I dont need any other items than those, and in fact i have noticed in many game i completely forget to spend my level up points. Scout doesnt need items or stats, just a smart player and his spells.

My job early in the game = rune control, heals, lane control (via runes)

My job mid game = ganker / farmer: Gank whenever you can but in between ganks get to a lane and farm...when they come after you invis and gank or farm another lane. Set wards to protect yourself while farming.

My job late game = Surveilance, backdooring, fight initatior / finisher. You will not be directly involved in combat.

Panic
08-12-2009, 03:28 AM
It's also pretty funny waiting until the runes spawn and placing an electric eye right on top of it which makes it almost impossible to take unless you try clicking the sides of the rune. (can buy you time while they're trying to take the rune and you're trying to get to them)

Betatest_
08-14-2009, 04:49 PM
I just backdoored with scout and they yelled at me, I am very sad :(

Nome
08-14-2009, 04:50 PM
I just backdoored with scout and they were yelling at me, I am very sad :(

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

There is cheesy backdoor like Dark Lady and Nymphora. Those are backdoors that are next to undefensible.

Then there is Scout backdoor, which is perfectly defensible.

Betatest_
08-14-2009, 05:27 PM
I am still wondering if it is allowed or not, because if it is 100% legal, I will continue. I love to annoy people :rolleyes:

Nome
08-14-2009, 05:32 PM
It's legal. If S2 wanted to ban it, they'd make it impossible.

Beiz
08-15-2009, 02:10 PM
Tried your build out a few times, sadly the opposition didn't put up much of a fight so I never took the game all to serious.
None the less, I really love the codex (dagon) on scout, kudos!

Sufferr
08-15-2009, 03:31 PM
Awesome guide. Helped get some stuff clear with scout...

btw SimpleFear, I saw this fight on your sig. live, it was sick xD

Tupimus
08-15-2009, 04:15 PM
Nome, levels 3 and 4 of Vanish are taken mostly for the mana efficiency. You need the mana that's saved by snatching rank 4 Vanish.

Giraffe
08-15-2009, 06:34 PM
nome, you have to try this out. the newest update put assassins shroud in +120 damage stealth attack. I did triple backstab codex marksmen combo I got a genocide on there team twice

Nome
08-15-2009, 06:54 PM
Nome, levels 3 and 4 of Vanish are taken mostly for the mana efficiency. You need the mana that's saved by snatching rank 4 Vanish.

Guide is currently under construction. Mana efficiency is something that's highly dependent on whether you go for a ganking or DPS build, something I'll touch up on when the guide is complete.

Deveon
08-17-2009, 01:55 AM
since 90% of the scout-players tend to be the "ok I won't drop invis until enemy hero is at 20% hp and I can finish him off" kind, I tend to rage at people picking scout in games. But in those very rare cases where he's actually *PLAYED* he can be pretty damn nice for the team.
Granted this is in the low-mid tier so that might not hold true in the 1800+ division. but w/e xD

*edit* since I fail at reading apparently

Nome
08-17-2009, 10:03 PM
Guide has been updated and finished.

turdle
08-18-2009, 06:16 AM
this is probably the hero you would want the least on your team im a public game. I think ive won something like 10% of the games with a scout on my team. Almost always killsteal and take gold worthwhile heroes could have spent much better. Nice guide all the same, whats the main diffrence between this and the old version?

Nome
08-18-2009, 06:24 AM
this is probably the hero you would want the least on your team im a public game. I think ive won something like 10% of the games with a scout on my team. Almost always killsteal and take gold worthwhile heroes could have spent much better. Nice guide all the same, whats the main diffrence between this and the old version?

In this version, I recognize how worthless he is for real games!

Nome
08-18-2009, 07:36 PM
Guys, I need your help.

I want to figure out how useful Scout is for decent-skilled games.
Try out this build:
Ring of the Teacher
Ring of Regeneration (optional)
Thunderclaw
Savage Mace
Steam Boots
Whispering Helm

In that order. Farm continually until after you get Savage Mace. Place Electric Eyes in defensive positions around you to avoid being ganked. Level Vanish to full--your Ring of the Teacher should keep you from ever running out of mana if you use it sparingly to last hit.

I typically manage to farm up to Savage Mace by ~25 minutes or so without any hero kills--that's a lot of farm. Try it out and let me know how it works out for you--I'm curious if Scout is actually being played wrong as a ganker.

glasswalke12
08-19-2009, 12:22 PM
Honestly best scout guide. If not best hon guide. Made me go from 1-10 to 25-2 with scout in matter of few games. I would vote premium.

Testknight
08-19-2009, 10:10 PM
This guide is incredible; I ended up going 13-2-25 and carrying our team to victory (in a tough pub) without playing a ks scout. Excellent pointers/tactics/items.

Giraffe
08-23-2009, 11:24 PM
Guys, I need your help.

I want to figure out how useful Scout is for decent-skilled games.
Try out this build:
Ring of the Teacher
Ring of Regeneration (optional)
Thunderclaw
Savage Mace
Steam Boots
Whispering Helm

In that order. Farm continually until after you get Savage Mace. Place Electric Eyes in defensive positions around you to avoid being ganked. Level Vanish to full--your Ring of the Teacher should keep you from ever running out of mana if you use it sparingly to last hit.

I typically manage to farm up to Savage Mace by ~25 minutes or so without any hero kills--that's a lot of farm. Try it out and let me know how it works out for you--I'm curious if Scout is actually being played wrong as a ganker.

Ill try this out next time I scout

bookmarked'

Wakizashi1
08-24-2009, 07:36 PM
imo scouts issues lie in lack of disable and in mana consumption especiallywith codex = imo u might wanna add hex as an extension to cover bothproblems dont u think?

l_l
08-24-2009, 09:34 PM
thanks Nome. :highfive:

Bobadew
08-27-2009, 09:46 PM
Make a video, I can't do **** with the scout :-/ . I have no idea how you get all the money to get these items. I think the best build is the Hack N Slash, Abyss, Steamboots, 2 soulrings, homestone. Only build I have had success with as the scout. Maybe I am doing something wrong...

lLOlBO
08-29-2009, 07:40 PM
Agree , this guide is awesome ; should be PREMIUM.

Fuga
08-30-2009, 11:58 AM
it is..
anyway, tried a teamfriendly scout cause I ran out of time in RD and got randomed this pointless *****.
maxing wards before dexterity etc.
we still lost because they had a madman and we had vj and a newb wildsoul. pointless hero.

iKeff
09-01-2009, 11:48 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/Initiation/item7steamboots.jpg Steam Boots (500)
If you DPS, get these and leave them on STR until you have enough stats and are doing well enough that you can put them on AGI.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/Morph%20Attacks/thunderclaw.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/Morph%20Attacks/chargedhammer.jpg Thunder Claw(3250) and Symbol Of Rage (6550)
Gives you very effective creep control, allowing you to push lanes quickly. A must for DPS builds.





Probably missed the first, but should the second one be Charged Hammer?

Also thanks for the guide it's a great help! :)

chadbrochill
09-02-2009, 02:48 PM
good writeup, thanks for this!

Bl4ckThund3r
09-07-2009, 03:03 PM
Guys, I need your help.

I want to figure out how useful Scout is for decent-skilled games.
Try out this build:
Ring of the Teacher
Ring of Regeneration (optional)
Thunderclaw
Savage Mace
Steam Boots
Whispering Helm

In that order. Farm continually until after you get Savage Mace. Place Electric Eyes in defensive positions around you to avoid being ganked. Level Vanish to full--your Ring of the Teacher should keep you from ever running out of mana if you use it sparingly to last hit.

I typically manage to farm up to Savage Mace by ~25 minutes or so without any hero kills--that's a lot of farm. Try it out and let me know how it works out for you--I'm curious if Scout is actually being played wrong as a ganker.

I Tryed your Item build ,... without bottle it takes 35 min to Savage Mage with bottle you can farm faster cause your stand longer in your lane ,.. its a good item build ! but what you prefer after this Itembuild ?


greez Bl4ckThund3r

KARTlK
09-07-2009, 07:29 PM
Man. I go three flayers. That's IT.

HunteR_
09-07-2009, 08:41 PM
photobucket fails....

Use http://logohobo.com

It's a site i own, it's only purpose is image hosting. Unlimited.

Nome
09-07-2009, 09:59 PM
photobucket fails....

Use http://logohobo.com

It's a site i own, it's only purpose is image hosting. Unlimited.

Meh, the pictures were ripped from Hucklecat's item guide. I will replace the pictures sometime.

_swEEt
09-09-2009, 11:20 AM
nice guide and all but anything that scout can do another hero can play his role better. hes is completely useless.

Nome
09-11-2009, 03:00 PM
Updated images.

Lumathe
09-12-2009, 11:36 PM
Note: As of the new patch. POWER SUPPLY (Minor totemx2, Mana Batteryx1, Power Supply Planx1, costs about 400-500g all up) is a definite must for a scout, or almost any hero that's going to end up in close range of enemy heroes. Gives you that much more up-time, and can save your ass in a tight spot where you dont quite have enough mana to stealth out of there (eg: if you're against magebane)

Ohyeah`
09-15-2009, 08:18 PM
I need help as the Scout. I find myself making poor decisions and getting killed a lot. My last match was 5/5/3. I can never seem to finish off a hero; My DPS sucked, and I found it hard farming.

Due to the lack of gold from death, I only had a Marcher and Shield Breaker. I was going to make a whispering helm, but our team conceded.

Any pointers?

Gangbangjoe
09-16-2009, 04:30 AM
I tried your build Nome, I fail with it horribly. So since I can't do it the right way, I guess I'll never touch him again. I played him as a carry before, even though it's wrong it worked better for me. But I do believe your build is superior once it works.

I'm going to wait for a scout revamp. Good work on the guide though!

Leones
09-19-2009, 10:39 AM
WTB update on this guide :D!!!

GnarlyGoat
09-19-2009, 11:56 AM
Given that they have made significant changes to the Scout, I was wondering whether this guide should still remain a premium guide. Whilst I think it was worthy of being premium prior to 0.1.45, the harsh reality is that the precise correlation between the information communicated in this guide and the facts insofar as they can be determined and demonstrated is such as to cause epistemological problems of sufficient magnitude to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be requested to bear.

i.e. Its wrong and until its changed it should probably be taken down from the premium guide section.

ElementUser
09-19-2009, 11:58 AM
Relax guys, people live in different timezones & thus it takes a while to make all the changes

SillyCat
09-19-2009, 06:27 PM
I've tried your Ring of the Teacher and Thunderclaw build and I think it has some merit, especially now with the attack speed changes meaning it'll proc that much faster.

Ring of the Teacher early game means you can stealth a lot more often and a lot longer with the mana-over-time thing being reduced. Having a Glacius on your team makes it so that you break even very quickly and can 'infinitely' remain in stealth.

If you're stealthing for the express purpose of proccing your attack speed, the mana cost is negligible and you can skip the ring altogether - bottle seems a bit better for more bursty mana uses like your ward (now more useful as an AOE 6 second silence bomb than a ward really) and your high mana cost ult, a combo which will drain you to near 0. Then again it depends on your playstyle. Stay in stealth or stay in the open.

Bottle should definitely be part of your new guide regardless. You can use your wards, your ult, the bottle, and refill it all without stealth breaking now (all of which previously used to).

SHJordan
09-19-2009, 06:46 PM
This guide needs many minor updates for patch 1.45

Kaushal
09-19-2009, 08:46 PM
Nome, I hope that you consider Scout's new role as a dedicated Anti-Carry when you remake this guide.

Nome
09-19-2009, 08:58 PM
I'm going to wait until S2 finishes balancing Scout. Until then, I'm moving this out of Premium.

ElvenSavior
09-22-2009, 10:29 AM
Quick question, I usually get Enhanced Marchers and then Shield Breaker but I've been debating on my third item. Would Savage Mace be a good next item? I've been using that and it works great but I've also been thinking of trying out Daemonic Breast Plate instead. It's almost the exact same price, but would give me a -11 armor buff which is very appealing. Not sure if it's worth the sacrifice of just the plain dmg that Savage Mace deals though. Seems about 50/50 to me, so I thought I'd ask.

CheshireKat
09-22-2009, 10:50 AM
I like steamboots, and brutalizer instead of shield breaker.

KnightDavion
09-22-2009, 10:59 AM
I'm going to wait until S2 finishes balancing Scout. Until then, I'm moving this out of Premium.

what makes you think they arent done now? Hes pretty cool and useful but by no means OP...just more useful.

I was a scout fan before the revamp and now im really loving it. My style hasnt changed to dramatically but now I have the ability to nullify chronos / arachna etc. I was also a huge ursa player in dota so the vanish swipes appeal to me greatly. And at no mana cost??

Workdawg
09-22-2009, 11:39 AM
You can't make sweeping changes to a hero and have it be completely balanced, unless you're super lucky. I don't think he's OP, cause he can be countered, but I can see some changes coming.

Also NO BOTTLE unless your solo mid doesn't. If you steal runes from your soloer, you are a terrible teamplayer. In early game, there's no reason to stay stealthed all the time. Scout is near worthless before level 6. You should have Vanish 3, Eyes 2 and Marksman 1. You might be able to get away with Eyes 1 and Disarm 1 if the other team doesn't try and gank early... but even with Disarm 1, you only get a 10% chance to proc for a measly 25% bonus damage. When not attacking coming out of stealth you attack way to slow, and move to slow to really do much unless you're with someone who can stun. If you're with someone who can stun, get out of sight, stealth up and move into position a little bit in advance.

KnightDavion
09-22-2009, 04:51 PM
You can't make sweeping changes to a hero and have it be completely balanced, unless you're super lucky. I don't think he's OP, cause he can be countered, but I can see some changes coming.

Also NO BOTTLE unless your solo mid doesn't. If you steal runes from your soloer, you are a terrible teamplayer. In early game, there's no reason to stay stealthed all the time. Scout is near worthless before level 6. You should have Vanish 3, Eyes 2 and Marksman 1. You might be able to get away with Eyes 1 and Disarm 1 if the other team doesn't try and gank early... but even with Disarm 1, you only get a 10% chance to proc for a measly 25% bonus damage. When not attacking coming out of stealth you attack way to slow, and move to slow to really do much unless you're with someone who can stun. If you're with someone who can stun, get out of sight, stealth up and move into position a little bit in advance.

Scout is a much preferred mid soloer if the opposing team has zues / pyro / nuker because his run speed + 100% rune control via the eye makes it impossible for the enemy to get rune or kill you because you eat their nuke then invis and heal and keep right on farming. Scout could be considered as a solid counter pick for this reason alone...

Endweaver
09-23-2009, 03:13 AM
Hey Nome! Got any new updates for this guide aligned with the revisions S2 did with Scout?

Chancy
09-24-2009, 12:06 AM
yeah i followed this guide, i went bottle/codex adn got codex at 4 mins solo mid, i love how i can cast it and still stay stealthed... they bought 4 gems and i still won lol 27-2 score and i got 4 gems as well hahaha thanks man

KingEmblem
09-24-2009, 12:10 AM
I'm going to wait until S2 finishes balancing Scout. Until then, I'm moving this out of Premium.
You're thinking disarm's 3 second duration is overpowered, huh?

CheshireKat
09-24-2009, 12:55 AM
I don't even get marksman shot until lv 10.. I find maxing dexterity and vanish first helps me farm and lv faster. lv 1 marksman shot doesn't seem that fantasy. lv 2 and 3 are much more useful.

Decoy_Jesus
09-26-2009, 06:34 AM
Omg... I'm sick of noobs getting magic eye as their first ability! Learn to play scout effectively.

PewPewMcGee
09-26-2009, 09:29 AM
Omg... I'm sick of noobs getting magic eye as their first ability! Learn to play scout effectively.

Your a retard if you think lvl 1 eye is noob.
/runecontrol plz

Decoy_Jesus
09-27-2009, 02:06 AM
Your a retard if you think lvl 1 eye is noob.
/runecontrol plz
Your a retard if you think level 1 magic eye isn't noob! Here's a little tip buddy when you get into pro's games. At the start, get vanish, wait at the rune with the enemy hero, wait till he uses up all his bottle to capture the first rune, steal it with your bottle. End result, you have a rune in a bottle, enemy has no more charges in his bottle.
L2 Professional Scout...

rayanman
09-28-2009, 09:46 AM
i bought flayer with scout for lols, needless to say i got bagged, thoughts?

KnightDavion
09-28-2009, 10:21 AM
Your a retard if you think level 1 magic eye isn't noob! Here's a little tip buddy when you get into pro's games. At the start, get vanish, wait at the rune with the enemy hero, wait till he uses up all his bottle to capture the first rune, steal it with your bottle. End result, you have a rune in a bottle, enemy has no more charges in his bottle.
L2 Professional Scout...

A gimmick that works 1 in 5 times maybe. Much better to get the eye and have rune control and gank protection the rest of the game.

Workdawg
09-28-2009, 11:33 AM
Your a retard if you think level 1 magic eye isn't noob! Here's a little tip buddy when you get into pro's games. At the start, get vanish, wait at the rune with the enemy hero, wait till he uses up all his bottle to capture the first rune, steal it with your bottle. End result, you have a rune in a bottle, enemy has no more charges in his bottle.
L2 Professional Scout...


Dude, that's an awesome strat...

Unless the rune spawns at the opposite location.
Unless your enemy manages to eat the rune while you are drinking your bottle.
Unless your enemy bottles it faster than you.

HunteR_
09-28-2009, 11:39 AM
flayer is good, u just can't rely on it as the only item

Crysiz21
09-28-2009, 04:15 PM
DO I HEAR OUTDATED?!?!

lulz poor nome :D

KARTlK
09-28-2009, 04:18 PM
Decoy Jesus might be trolling, but he seems to legitimately believe his own bullshit.

Anyway, scout will be unable to use bottle without breaking invis after next patch. That=dead scout if he tries doing what this guy said.

Decoy_Jesus
09-28-2009, 10:21 PM
Dude, that's an awesome strat...

Unless the rune spawns at the opposite location.
Unless your enemy manages to eat the rune while you are drinking your bottle.
Unless your enemy bottles it faster than you.

Sigh, noobs these days:
1. You can always do what a scout does and SCOUT ahead a small amount from the rune, if you see an enemy with a bottle moving towards the rune location you know he's going to wait for it.
2. Your always going to be quicker then the other play because you (unlike him) can act as quick as possible taking the least amount of time as possible, most players waste at least 1 second looking at the rune type before drinking bottle and this is where you get the advantage.
3. Yes its true this will only work half of the time however if no enemy is waiting, no harm done you simply get a rune, if the rune spawns at the otther end of the river you can signal/call it straight away for your other team.

L2 Scout please

Decoy_Jesus
09-28-2009, 10:26 PM
Decoy Jesus might be trolling, but he seems to legitimately believe his own bullshit.

Anyway, scout will be unable to use bottle without breaking invis after next patch. That=dead scout if he tries doing what this guy said.

You don't know that for sure, it works now so exploit, exploit, exploit. You cant disregard a strategy on the grounds you hope its going to be nerfed next update. Speaking of which i don't like the Valkyrie/Charged hammer tactic on the grounds that in the next patch she will have no legs.

KARTlK
09-29-2009, 11:35 AM
Unless Idejder likes to lie to us, it is true.

Kennedy
09-30-2009, 02:04 AM
Nome, your own hero remake made your premium guide outdated.

Owned.

LegoPirate
09-30-2009, 02:05 AM
Nome, your own hero remake made your premium guide outdated.

Owned.

want to troll a mod?

TOO BAD, ITS ME

BLACKSMITH

sam_jackson
09-30-2009, 05:26 AM
good guide. I have never played scout before(afraid I will suck as him). Ill have to give it a shot now.

`M`ao
09-30-2009, 08:35 AM
good guide. I have never played scout before(afraid I will suck as him). Ill have to give it a shot now.

This guide is 10 yrs outdated.
Good luck on the one way ticket to hell.

@ Decoy Dickhead.
Stop trolling.
Eyes are LEET.
That's why it's limited to 2 per idk how many minutes.
you get FREE eyes now and you're not exploiting it?
Troll fail. (Fail of the highest order.)
:cool:
You're gona be my fail of the day.

09-30-2009, 08:50 AM
This guide should be removed from premium (along with other now outdated guides) until updated, or removed permanently if it's not going to be updated.

sneakysob
09-30-2009, 04:24 PM
This guide should be removed from premium (along with other now outdated guides) until updated, or removed permanently if it's not going to be updated.

stfu

10-01-2009, 02:27 AM
stfu

eat ****.