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12-09-2009, 07:12 PM
I usually will play non-EM, but every once in awhile I'm impatient and will take any game that's available. When I play EM, I tend to see ridiculous amounts of carries, like last night the opposing team was magebane/valk/archer/nighthound/some leaver. Our well-balanced team did very well early, but predictably got owned in the lvl-20-all-towers-down phase of the game.

I was playing pestilence, which is ostensibly an anti-carry hero (Why is that exactly? Because of bash? Or the ult? Or the combination thereof?), but I got instantly ginsu'd lategame. This was partially because I was out-farmed (too much roaming/chasing midgame, not enough farming), partially due to my team of support/nukers (who took all the kills early), and partially because I made the bad-in-retrospect decision to turn a warhammer into a shrunken instead of sheildbreaker.

What is an exhaustive list of strategies to own in a 3-4 AGI per team metagame?

1) Pick heroes with hard disables, preferably multiples, like witchhunter/polywog/succubus.
2) Focus on disabling items like Kuldra (& brutalizer?).
3) Focus on attack-speed debuff items like Frostwolf/Frostfield (& black legion?).
4) Win the game before level 15-20 (LDO, but how? Just be more aggressive, coordinated than most pubs?)

What else?

AssTastic
12-09-2009, 07:14 PM
Every EM game is just going to be who has the better carries.

Boduar
12-09-2009, 07:14 PM
Push early and pick heroes that support it (preferrably want at least 1 healing support).

Tyrando
12-09-2009, 07:16 PM
how did you come to the conclusion Pestilence is an anti-carry hero?

Pest is a carry

the only Anti-carry hero we've had was Scout before his recent nerf due to Disarm lasting for a good 2 seconds, aswell as having an aoe silence.

closest thing to an anti-carry is probably Panda, being a carry himself aswell as the fact all his abilities are physical which means Shrunken Head dont mean **** against him.

Swiftblade can be decent aswell but you need an equal farm & some modifiers for your counter attack.

besides the obvious hard disable heroes.

siefat
12-09-2009, 07:18 PM
succubus is nice :)

Godzu
12-09-2009, 07:18 PM
Predator maybe?

caveviS
12-09-2009, 07:23 PM
Counters to carries:

Pushing strats. Teams that include some combination of Pollywog, Torturer, Defiler, Ophelia, Wildsoul, Demented Shaman, Nymphora.
Disables. Lots of disables. Preferably ones that go through BKB.
Soul Reaper. Instantly killing a carry at 45% health is a pretty effective way to counter them.

noodle0117
12-09-2009, 07:24 PM
anti carries...
1. Scout (disarm)
2. Puppetmaster (harkon's blade to bypass high armor from agility heroes, puppet crazed to make carries attack their own teammates).
3. Legionnaire (good early game, can rape majority of glass cannon carries if he gets barbed armor).
4. Succubus (smitten greatly reduces damage)

edit: Pred isn't that good against agility carries, since most agility carries have high armor, but low hp. He is pretty good vs strength carries such as maliken and warbeast.

elevator13
12-09-2009, 07:24 PM
Chronos is good with his bash, which Magic Immunity doesn't protect against, and in teamfights his ult guarantees a death.

Leo_the_Lion
12-09-2009, 07:35 PM
Rampage is a good choice. he can effectively rape someone for 4 seconds without them attacking him, plus he can get extra bashes during that time

Chronos is good but you gotta get him farmed so he can actually attack more then 4 times during his ult

Pestilence is a great anti-carry because of his bash, stun, and -armor. How is magebane supposed to hit you if he's bashed and stunned with a huge armor debuff?

Panda works well too cause he can monster disable someone even if they have shrunken head

Puppet Master works better in team fights because his puppet show can cause the carry to lower a teammate to an easily killable range and then can hold them with his puppetteers hold for another 4 seconds

And succubus is probably the best choice because she has 3 skills that totally screw someone over; smitten for dps carries, her sleep for anyone that needs to be removed from the fight, and hold for a complete disable on one target

12-09-2009, 07:35 PM
how did you come to the conclusion Pestilence is an anti-carry hero?

Sorry, my bad. I searched "anti-carry" before posting and the pestilence guide came up, but I didn't read the thread to see what the usage of the phrase was in reference too.


Chronos is good with his bash, which Magic Immunity doesn't protect against, and in teamfights his ult guarantees a death.

Well, the game I played prior to that, we faced Chronos/Scout/Archer/MoonQueen/someguy :). Chronos was even more annoying than the rest, since I couldn't do anything and couldn't counter sphere in anyway.

arieLOL
12-09-2009, 07:42 PM
in em games where everyone chooses carries grab a disabler/ganker like witchslayer/pyro and gank the hell out of them from 6-11 then push

AoE damage is usually pretty effective against all carry teams but you need people who know what they are doing and who push when they have the advantage

MAd_MEdic
12-09-2009, 07:48 PM
I usually will play non-EM, but every once in awhile I'm impatient and will take any game that's available. When I play EM, I tend to see ridiculous amounts of carries, like last night the opposing team was magebane/valk/archer/nighthound/some leaver. Our well-balanced team did very well early, but predictably got owned in the lvl-20-all-towers-down phase of the game.

I was playing pestilence, which is ostensibly an anti-carry hero (Why is that exactly? Because of bash? Or the ult? Or the combination thereof?), but I got instantly ginsu'd lategame. This was partially because I was out-farmed (too much roaming/chasing midgame, not enough farming), partially due to my team of support/nukers (who took all the kills early), and partially because I made the bad-in-retrospect decision to turn a warhammer into a shrunken instead of sheildbreaker.

What is an exhaustive list of strategies to own in a 3-4 AGI per team metagame?

1) Pick heroes with hard disables, preferably multiples, like witchhunter/polywog/succubus.
2) Focus on disabling items like Kuldra (& brutalizer?).
3) Focus on attack-speed debuff items like Frostwolf/Frostfield (& black legion?).
4) Win the game before level 15-20 (LDO, but how? Just be more aggressive, coordinated than most pubs?)

What else?


i feel u man...
sigh

ElementUser
12-09-2009, 08:23 PM
Succubus & Scout :O

Piava
12-09-2009, 08:25 PM
Panda

RTBardic
12-09-2009, 08:31 PM
A good "anti-carry" skill is the +/- damage on Corrupted Disciple.

If you're a caster worried about physical beatdowns, get Void Talisman (especially against Panda). It's under-appreiciated, and the ideal item if you're primarily worried about carry DPS (not on puppet / torturer with Harkon's, obviously).

If you have a sufficient amount of HP to make it worthwhile (STR heroes), get barbed armor -- you'll either outlast them or weaken them to a point where the rest of your team can finish them off.

Against the most powerful carries (madman, pest, magebane, chronos, maliken) you really need to try to win before they get good enough to 1v5 your team. Given enough time, any one of those four will eventually have enough stuff to be effectively unkillable. Your job as a team is to win before that happens -- and if that means picking a lineup more geared for early pushes (wildsoul, defiler, ophelia, hellbringer, polly, dsham, soul reaper....etc) then do it.

Kudryavka
12-09-2009, 11:11 PM
Succubus and Behemoth result in lots of broken glass cannons. Fill the other 3 slots with pushers, e.g. Nymphora, Defiler, and Pollywog. I haven't tried it, but you could probably augment your pushing with 3 or 4 of the new, cheap Puzzleboxes. Also, don't be afraid to BD. Letting the game go on longer out of politeness is silly. If you don't win in 30 minutes, you're probably gonna lose, though the odds of an all carry team stopping a push strat are slim to none. You can probably push at 6 and get all three towers in a lane.

phamilyguy
12-10-2009, 12:15 AM
Carries are weak in general... so they'll be negligible early on in teamfights. Force the teamfight and you can draw them out with one monster hero like Tempest... who is always banned for a good reason.

hotloy
12-10-2009, 01:09 AM
corrupted does not really work as anti carry in em cause u got much more than 1 carry against you+he kinda is useless most times.

Panda: carry himself+multiple stuns

succubus: as one of the best gank heroes shes perfect to anoy carrys in em+her first skill renders any carry almost useless as soon as shrunken head wears off. puzzlebox for her!

tempest / plague / hellbringer: u'll have bout 3-4carry pickers on your team so its never a bad idea to pick heroes that got turntable spells even if ur team is getting a beating. lategame this can result in turning the game even if your behind by 30-3 or something + with em ull get ur core items super easy, and prolly will rape some face resulting in more luxury items. plague with sotm+sheepstick+refresher .. naiss. same with tempest dagger+sheepstick+refresher ... naiiiisss

and in em thats actually not to hard to get to, even if u get kinda beaten. or the rest of your team does.

actually with temp/plague + decent mapawareness and telling ur team when to be aware of your ulti (mostly as temp) you got yourself a pretty easy way to stomp em.


not yet mentioned

Chronos.. outstanding in em with his ultimate + passive skills IF you get a decent farm till lvl 16 and manage to finish something like alchemists+wingbow. or parasite+shieldbreaker/geometers and arent more than 3-5 lvl behind. he mostly always will win the game if it has not been fully decided

BIGWANG
12-10-2009, 02:42 AM
Succubus.
No matter how farmed a carry is, with -120% base damage his attack will likely be in the negatives (yes I've seen it before, and I guess it means you do no damage).
300 true damage will hurt you no matter what, and 7 seconds is pretty much the entire teamfight.
5 second disable will kill any carry if the other team can take advantage of it.
Addditionally, succubus will usually get a kuldra, further improving her disables.

Rassen
12-10-2009, 03:58 AM
except when they turn on shrunken and rape you in 3 seconds, i mean, what kind of decent player doesnt go for succ first ?

Lolololage
12-10-2009, 08:31 AM
In all the games i play (non EM) i always find that when i mid soul reaper and rush sheepstick, i destroy carries.

Nidhogg
12-10-2009, 01:49 PM
Oh no, not shrunken head, whatever will you buy that gives you 4 seconds of physical immunity?

thewishkah
12-10-2009, 06:52 PM
corrupted disciples link spell is anti carry

KARTlK
12-10-2009, 07:02 PM
how did you come to the conclusion Pestilence is an anti-carry hero?

Pest is a carry

the only Anti-carry hero we've had was Scout before his recent nerf due to Disarm lasting for a good 2 seconds, aswell as having an aoe silence.

closest thing to an anti-carry is probably Panda, being a carry himself aswell as the fact all his abilities are physical which means Shrunken Head dont mean **** against him.

Swiftblade can be decent aswell but you need an equal farm & some modifiers for your counter attack.

besides the obvious hard disable heroes.

Chronos is pretty anti carry too actually. Someone pointed that out to me the other day.

liq3
12-11-2009, 06:02 AM
Hrm, I can think of 3 counters to carries that are effective.

Night Hound. Cloud at level 4 means 70% miss rate. That's basically 70% DPS drop. Even carries do 500dps wont hurt under cloud. Night Hound himself when farmed has plenty of DPS to cut down the high armour carries.

Rampage. Spam IAS and you'll stunlock them. Assuming equal farm you'll also have much higher HPS so they'll have trouble killing you. He's also really good for ganking them midgame.

Blood Hunter. Stops those annoying escape mechasisms magebane, madman, TDL etc all have. Gank the carries like crazy midgame. They cant carry if they're 0-10.

Tajak
12-11-2009, 10:02 AM
Corrupted Disciple is a carry and an anti-carry. Succubus is an anti-carry. Blood Hunter is pretty good too, and can harass well the entire game.

gatinholsta
12-11-2009, 03:31 PM
Pestilence is the anti carry. Massive strength gain and -6 armor on his ult.

QuesoxCore
12-11-2009, 04:06 PM
I think good anti carries are Witch Slayer, Succubus, Tempest.

Dataslycer
12-11-2009, 05:00 PM
Keeper of the Forest. (Nature's Protection, Roots)
Succubus (Smitten, Mesmerize, Succubus Hold)
Jeraziah (Inner Light, Blessing of Sol)
Zephyr (Wild Shield for range, Wind Control)
Sand Wraith (Dissipation, item synergy with Mirage)

JohnnySmash
12-11-2009, 06:43 PM
Succ and Corrupted Disciple both have anti-carry abilities that will make an enemy carry hit like a fly. I'm not a big fan of Corrupted's ability though due to have to remain so close to the enemy.

Also I like to static grip the carry when I play electrician, it's worked very well for me in the past though it can be countered with a stun. He's my favorite counterpick to magebane (I hate that bastard hero) since I can stop him from blinking.

Dataslycer
12-11-2009, 06:55 PM
Also I like to static grip the carry when I play electrician, it's worked very well for me in the past though it can be countered with a stun. He's my favorite counterpick to magebane (I hate that bastard hero) since I can stop him from blinking.

I'd say heroes with natural blinks hate puppet master even more than they hate electrician