Heroes that need nerfs/buffs

[Ales1]

Yes, this is a wall of text, and I feel it's very comprehensive to how me and many other veteran players of DotA feel about the current issue of hero balancing. This isn't a whiny post about some hero I think that is just way too strong, it's an overall view of the game and how heroes should be balanced. I will update this as I feel necessary. Please, do your best to read this dev's and fellow players; and most importantly GIVE ME FEEDBACK. I'd like to know if other people feel the same way. I have put forth about an hour into this, I hope it is actually reviewed.

First off, I feel magic reduction in this game is pretty weak. I've had zeus still doing 200-225 damage with 65% MR on Magebane with his primary thunderbolt nuke. That is absurd and should be closer to 100-150. This, I believe, makes power nukers much stronger than they should be and only susceptible to the current OP physical carries, such as madman.

Zeus: Extend thunderbolt cooldown from 7 seconds to 9 or 11 seconds, or make it 100/160/220/280, rather than a the full 300. (I feel with MR added in this would be a significant nerf, he puts almost any hero at half health instantly with a arc/thunderbolt combo, that combo is repeatable almost 10 times a minute) Also, his ultimate cooldown should be slightly extended by 20-30 seconds. A global nuke every 1 1/2 minutes is insane.

Arachna: Make her slow 15/20/25/30%, the full 40% makes it impossible to escape her with any method of juking, and if you are chasing her and if she happens to have a friendly power nuker (such as zeus or pyro) come in, it's pretty much GG because you aren't going anywhere if she gets one hit off before you can bail. That being said, I feel her ultimate should be giving a 3/4/5 or 4/5/6 increase of spider hits, but given a higher cooldown as well. Something around 90 seconds (I could be mistaken, I believe its 60 or 75.)

Pyro: His ultimate should be extended to 90 seconds or more, 60 seconds for 980 or 1250 damage is outrageous. Simply an absurd idea to have that much burst damage available every minute.

Torturer: His diabolic edict-esque skill needs a huge buff, it does pretty much non-existent damage to anything other than very low hp creeps, even at higher levels. His ulti should devour a lot more mana at higher levels, a blood stone with 3 or 4 charges can pretty much sustain it for a good minute. His stun AoE should be lowered due to it's spammability.

Pollywog Priest: Reduce shackles by half a second.

Electrician: Increase the cooldown of his stun to 15-20 seconds, it seems very spammable currently and is extremely lengthy and powerful.

Accursed: His ultimate should only heal IF he has a shield up at the time, an auto-heal of that measure is often turned into a full-heal mid-battle due to uncontrollable circumstances, such as creep attacks or tower focus. It's meant to be a survivability ultimate, imo, not a heal. It should simply block damage for 3/4/5 or 4/5/6 seconds as a result, and have a cooldown of 90 or 120 seconds. Also increase his shield to 200 damage, but increase to cooldown to 25-30 seconds. Increase mana cost to 100/120/140/160. It's an extremely powerful skill, and is currently very spammable. He already has a nuke/heal as a tank, no need to turn his shield into one as well. This guy is pretty much imba to the max, he can nuke/heal, slow, buff allies, protect, and has a form of resurrection.

Madman: Reduce his critical strike chance to 10/15/20/25, perhaps increase it's factor to 2.2/2.5. 36% is ENORMOUS damage. Also, increase barrel roll cooldown by 2-5 seconds. Reduce his ultimate's IAS to 40/50/60 or 30/45/60. 80% is pretty much 3 crits a second, not including it can almost perma-bash even with the cool down. It makes him nigh unkillable with high leech and mediocre health.

Juggernaut: Increase manacost on blade fury to 140. It's the single most powerful DoT skill in the game, not including ultimates. Lower damage to 60/85/110/135 rather than an immediate 80 damage, it's a guaranteed first blood when combined with ANY stun. Reduce crit strike to 18/22/26/30 or 16/20/24/28. It's currently to high, like madman's.

Moon Queen: Make her bouncing attacks not carry the initial modifiers of the attack. Bouncing mana burn and leech is gosu as F#!@. Reduce range of her nuke to about 750-800 units, I feel it can be shot from about 3/4 of a screen away.

Glacius: Make his ultimate less random, I've had people escape from right beside me with no damage taken, and I've had people on the edge of it get hit for 900 damage almost instantly. It's WAY to random to be considered balanced.

Kraken: Increase cooldown on his charge by 2-5 seconds.

Night Hound: Reduce blink strike to 100 damage. It seems silly, but it's an unblockable 300-400 damage nuke every 5 seconds by end game. And you don't run out of mana any time soon with NH.

Venomancer: Increase his passive slow slightly, buff his wards damage by 3 dmg per level, and buff his ultimate by about 15 dps (perhaps even 15 dps per level). He's useless late game if he doesn't have an insane arsenal of items.

Hellbringer: Reduce his life-leech skill to a MUCH smaller aoe, or make it single-target. Or reduce the converted damage -> health to about 10/15/20/25%. It's a guaranteed full heal with any kind of AoE damage dealer on your team, and it lasts for a VERY long time with a VERY short cooldown. Perhaps increase the cooldown by 5-10 seconds. This skill is POWERFUL.

(To show the math: Casted on 4 creeps, each with roughly 450 hp, it will give you 225x4 = 1000 hp every 10 seconds. That's just 4 creeps, on big pushes its an infinite heal for an extended period while you cast slow and dot's on everyone and micro your malphas, who gives you 75 hp per unit hit with each cast currently)

Blood Hunter: Increase ultimate's cooldown to 90-115 seconds. Reduce his DoT's time to 5/6/7/8 seconds; increase cooldown to 20 seconds. I've seen Blood Hunters pumping out 400-500 damage per hit for extended periods, with virtually no damage being done to them. In exchange for silence? I'd do it any day, you don't need anything else, especially with any sort of life leech. An alternate route would be to reduce the damage buff by a moderate amount (20-30%) Reduce his blood sense spell to 30-35%, 40% is a lot of hp. Perhaps increase the damage of his ultimate slightly per unit moved to reflect the increase in cooldown.

Hammerstorm: Lower splash to 10/20/30/40%, with a bf it's doing almost the full 100% splash damage to creeps 600 units away. Even with diminishing returns (if there are any) that's nutty. Increase stun range to 600 or 700 units.

Wildsoul: Reduce bear's movespeed, it moves at 490 almost constantly, that's ridiculous.

Dark Lady: Increase damage of her blink to 20% reduced per hit, rather than 35%. Reduce speed of slow to 20/30/40/50 and reduce manacost to 85/100/115/130.

Defiler: Reduce range of her nuke to 800 units, and make the cooldown 8 seconds with her passive. Her ultimate needs a HUGE damage reduction, it can keep her alive against 2-3 heroes for an extra 10-15 seconds, and allow her to take down one or two of them, and usually that means getting the third. It should target randomly, not what she targets.

Legionnaire: Reduce his whirling blade to 75/100/125/150 damage. (It's another case of swiftblade's blade dance ability, just WAY too powerful at early levels to be balanced. It can kill heroes in 4-5 procs, and it can proc A LOT.)

[Lexi00]

I'd agree that Torturer needs a buff, he seems really weak compared to other casters of his type. Accursed can just.. Die. I hate Accursed, his ult is just plain nasty. Only time I don't mind fighting him is on Axe, as his ulti is a pretty good counter.

[Fr4cko]

There's a lot of nerfs there.

[Ales1]

There's a lot of nerfing that needs to be done. This game's engine handles things (aka numbers) differently than WC3's, though they designed it to be similar. I feel that numbers that were more acceptable in dota simply aren't anymore and they have to be tinkered with.

Keep in mind most of these are minor tweaks, not signiificant nerfs. Just small things to even the playing field with abilities of similar design.

[Jake]

I disagree with caster nerfs, because they are weak and must be supported by the team. Bloodstone should be nerfed only. Accursed is fine, you just need to kill him last not first. Venomancer's ulti does 432/696/972 damage. So its like 5k dot when you place it right, that's weak? Usually when you get this dot its death or atleast back to base. Arachna doesnt have anything else but the slow. Think about Viper, slow and damage orb. Arachna should be buffed not nerfed.

[Ales1]

There is a buff, but her slow is pretty nuts at the moment. You didn't read the full part, you scanned it. Her ultimate would get a damage buff to reflect the nerf in slow. And she has nothing else? She has a debuff remover and a temporary almost 60% magic reduction that if used correctly can make nukers pretty ineffective against her.

Thats 972 damage not including spell reduction and hp regen. Most heroes are pushing 10hp per second, and thats not including one's using bloodstones (every nuker). That 972 quickly drops to about 400-500 damage in the end, which is weak considering he has no attack buffing skills besides his passive, which is nearly a null skill by late game. Yeah, viper's auto-cast is MUCH more powerful than slither's, and his ultimate is burst damage and much faster. Not comparable at all imo. His late game ability is what? To slow heroes 20%? Not effective at all.

And caster's aren't weak, that's the problem. There isn't much defense against them due to the majority of them having HIGH hp/hp regen end game, rather than their killing ability falling off. Magic Reduction in this game is significantly weaker than dota's.

[Ales1]

Most of your suggestions are pretty weak sir. I was going to post a better reply but frankly it'd be too much work to start another balance theory war.


Then your useless.

THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THAT THE NUMBERS ARE CLONED FROM DOTA, WITH A DIFFERENT ENGINE CRUNCHING THE NUMBERS.

THIS MEANS A MAJORITY OF THE THINGS NEED TO BE TWEAKED TO BE MORE BALANCED, BECAUSE THE RESULTS ARE DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT.

That is the main point of this whole post.

[Draddock]

The only good change you have in your entire post is the magic armor/resistance thing. Doing the math (in DotA standard's) on it with base magic resistance + magebane's magic armor skill Thunderbringer's nuke should do 158 damage.

All the other change you suggest are unnecessarily crippling.

[Ales1]

Go play a game of dota with zeus and see if his ability to take heroes to 1/2 their hp late game isn't crippled.

Go play HoN and you'll see that he continues to put out huge damage numbers up until the last minutes of every game. This is simply outrageous considering all you have to get on him is a bloodstone to live and cast unlimited amounts. This is pretty much concurrent with every hero, specifically defiler more than any other nuker, as well as Hellbringer.

50% life steal for 7 seconds on an AoE of about 350-400 units? You can't honestly think that's at any way fair, his ult alone gives him on average 225 hp per flamebreath cast. That's not including ANYTHING else in a battle, like huge damage numbers being put up by friendly carries and creeps hitting eachother the whole time.


"I believe we have a problem here, what happens is that the Hellbringer ended up a hero
very strong both in the early game, either solo or with someone in the lane, (because of the life skill void
which allows a very strong lane control. Note: excluding the Unholy Shackle and the death Boil,
that provide both a good nuke as a good chance of escape) and in mid game (because
the Malphas) or even in late game using the life void and hitting 3 units, which is not
difficult, there is a great opportunity to recover up to 600 of life, in less than 10 seconds,
providing a reduction of magical armor of 8.3 and a CD with less than the length of
skill is absurd. I advise to reduce the percentage of the heal skill to 20% or 25%, or
increase to at least 20seg cd."

From another's hellbringer view, that's pretty much EXACTLY what I put, and no I did not read his. That's more than enough for me to know that im not alone in these number tweaking sentiments.

Keep in mind, a majority of these "nerfs" aren't nerfs. They are tweaks that would be more suitable for HoN's engine, because this is DotA numbers with a weaker armor system. Which means ALOT higher damages are coming out of these heroes, especially with survivability not being an issue with any caster in HoN due to bloodstone and the SoM being like old school aghanims, and giving huge hp buffs.

[Osiris]

This game's engine handles things (aka numbers) differently than WC3's, though they designed it to be similar. I feel that numbers that were more acceptable in dota simply aren't anymore and they have to be tinkered with..

DotA: 1 + 1 = 2
HoN: 1 + 1 = 3

???

You are right about the hellbringer's uber spell, but the copied spells seem actually quite correct. Thunderbringer deals exactly the same damage as Zeus in DotA did.

[Draddock]

Ok ok, you want feedback. I suppose I can be more specific in my thoughts. . .


First off, I feel magic reduction in this game is pretty weak. I've had zeus still doing 200-225 damage with 65% MR on Magebane with his primary thunderbolt nuke. That is absurd and should be closer to 100-150. This, I believe, makes power nukers much stronger than they should be and only susceptible to the current OP physical carries, such as madman.
Magic Resistance does seem a bit strange to be doing so much damage so that be fixed before any of these other changes take place.


Zeus: Extend thunderbolt cooldown from 7 seconds to 9 or 11 seconds, or make it 100/160/220/280, rather than a the full 300. (I feel with MR added in this would be a significant nerf, he puts almost any hero at half health instantly with a arc/thunderbolt combo, that combo is repeatable almost 10 times a minute) Also, his ultimate cooldown should be slightly extended by 20-30 seconds. A global nuke every 1 1/2 minutes is insane.
See above ^ but I think 7 sec CD and global nuke is fine.


Arachna: Make her slow 15/20/25/30%, the full 40% makes it impossible to escape her with any method of juking, and if you are chasing her and if she happens to have a friendly power nuker (such as zeus or pyro) come in, it's pretty much GG because you aren't going anywhere if she gets one hit off before you can bail. That being said, I feel her ultimate should be giving a 3/4/5 or 4/5/6 increase of spider hits, but given a higher cooldown as well. Something around 90 seconds (I could be mistaken, I believe its 60 or 75.)
Her slow is stacking so the percentage doesn't matter much since it stacks, but other than that her skills are weak. Carapace is so much weaker than silence, and Spider Sting is already near useless - needs a major ultimate buff.


Pyro: His ultimate should be extended to 90 seconds or more, 60 seconds for 980 or 1250 damage is outrageous. Simply an absurd idea to have that much burst damage available every minute.
Other heroes can the same amount or more burst damage. IMO the damage is probably a good amount unworthy of nerf.



Torturer: His diabolic edict-esque skill needs a huge buff, it does pretty much non-existent damage to anything other than very low hp creeps, even at higher levels. His ulti should devour a lot more mana at higher levels, a blood stone with 3 or 4 charges can pretty much sustain it for a good minute. His stun AoE should be lowered due to it's spammability.
The blade thing is quite weak, it should at least do damage to towers or focus nearby targets, possibly increase damage too. Ultimate mana cost is irrelevant. The only purpose for it is either to farm creeps or team fights, in which even 5 seconds is probably long enough to decide the outcome. His stun is already delayed which makes hitting difficult unless opponents stand still, doesn't need nerfing.



Pollywog Priest: Reduce shackles by half a second.
Why? It's a skill that is more likely to be ended halfway through because of stun or whatnot.


Electrician: Increase the cooldown of his stun to 15-20 seconds, it seems very spammable currently and is extremely lengthy and powerful.
Yes, the one shining point in a fairly bad hero. Let's nerf it!


Accursed: His ultimate should only heal IF he has a shield up at the time, an auto-heal of that measure is often turned into a full-heal mid-battle due to uncontrollable circumstances, such as creep attacks or tower focus. It's meant to be a survivability ultimate, imo, not a heal. It should simply block damage for 3/4/5 or 4/5/6 seconds as a result, and have a cooldown of 90 or 120 seconds. Also increase his shield to 200 damage, but increase to cooldown to 25-30 seconds. Increase mana cost to 100/120/140/160. It's an extremely powerful skill, and is currently very spammable. He already has a nuke/heal as a tank, no need to turn his shield into one as well. This guy is pretty much imba to the max, he can nuke/heal, slow, buff allies, protect, and has a form of resurrection.
Creep attack/tower focus won't heal much unless it's really early game for his ultimate. All other circumstances can be controlled, Not nerf-worthy.
If CD of shield is 30, then it should be for like 400 damage. Mana nerf is so pointless (even more so with nerfed cd), only time it hurts is early game.
Accursed is only good at support, could even use some minor buffs since he doesn't do much else.


Madman: Reduce his critical strike chance to 10/15/20/25, perhaps increase it's factor to 2.2/2.5. 36% is ENORMOUS damage. Also, increase barrel roll cooldown by 2-5 seconds. Reduce his ultimate's IAS to 40/50/60 or 30/45/60. 80% is pretty much 3 crits a second, not including it can almost perma-bash even with the cool down. It makes him nigh unkillable with high leech and mediocre health.
I'm not sure what you're talkin about perma-bash, but overall Madman needs a nerf.


Juggernaut: Increase manacost on blade fury to 140. It's the single most powerful DoT skill in the game, not including ultimates. Lower damage to 60/85/110/135 rather than an immediate 80 damage, it's a guaranteed first blood when combined with ANY stun. Reduce crit strike to 18/22/26/30 or 16/20/24/28. It's currently to high, like madman's.
Bladespin skill is only good for damage early on. And it's not like Swiftblade + stunner is the only level one kill lane. Doesn't need a nerf. % chance for crit wouldn't hurt to lower it, but should have a higher damage increase.



Moon Queen: Make her bouncing attacks not carry the initial modifiers of the attack. Bouncing mana burn and leech is gosu as F#!@. Reduce range of her nuke to about 750-800 units, I feel it can be shot from about 3/4 of a screen away.
Agreed with bouncing mana burn/Lifesteal, but the nuke is fine, since it's her only long-range skill.


Glacius: Make his ultimate less random, I've had people escape from right beside me with no damage taken, and I've had people on the edge of it get hit for 900 damage almost instantly. It's WAY to random to be considered balanced.
Personally I think randomness is fine, sometimes you're lucky and sometimes you're not.


Kraken: Increase cooldown on his charge by 2-5 seconds.
Meh.


Night Hound: Reduce blink strike to 100 damage. It seems silly, but it's an unblockable 300-400 damage nuke every 5 seconds by end game. And you don't run out of mana any time soon with NH.
By the time you can 'nuke' someone for 400 every blink strike, it's probably over anyway.



Venomancer: Increase his passive slow slightly, buff his wards damage by 3 dmg per level, and buff his ultimate by about 15 dps (perhaps even 15 dps per level).[/b] He's useless late game if he doesn't have an insane arsenal of items.
Why is this a bad thing? Goes for other heroes too.



Hellbringer: Reduce his life-leech skill to a MUCH smaller aoe, or make it single-target. Or reduce the converted damage -> health to about 10/15/20/25%. It's a guaranteed full heal with any kind of AoE damage dealer on your team, and it lasts for a VERY long time with a VERY short cooldown. Perhaps increase the cooldown by 5-10 seconds. This skill is POWERFUL.

(To show the math: Casted on 4 creeps, each with roughly 450 hp, it will give you 225x4 = 1000 hp every 10 seconds. That's just 4 creeps, on big pushes its an infinite heal for an extended period while you cast slow and dot's on everyone and micro your malphas, who gives you 75 hp per unit hit with each cast currently)
For a hero lacking high damage aside of his summoning spell. I don't see what the problem with staying alive until the end of a fight is. Shouldn't focus a hero that will get his spells off anyway and will only use them once a fight. Although lasting time probably shouldn't last longer than the cooldown, seems a bit imba.


Blood Hunter: Increase ultimate's cooldown to 90-115 seconds. Reduce his DoT's time to 5/6/7/8 seconds; increase cooldown to 20 seconds. I've seen Blood Hunters pumping out 400-500 damage per hit for extended periods, [B]with virtually no damage being done to them. In exchange for silence? I'd do it any day, you don't need anything else, especially with any sort of life leech. An alternate route would be to reduce the damage buff by a moderate amount (20-30%) Reduce his blood sense spell to 30-35%, 40% is a lot of hp. Perhaps increase the damage of his ultimate slightly per unit moved to reflect the increase in cooldown.
If BH is doing 500 with his buff, then he'd be hitting for probably 350-400 already - probably screwed by then anyway. Why would he take no damage? 40% for blood sense seems fine to me. The only time you should be that is after you've just killed someone/escaped. If damage is increased, rupture CD probably wouldn't be too bad.(even though the only application is ganking)


Hammerstorm: Lower splash to 10/20/30/40%, with a bf it's doing almost the full 100% splash damage to creeps 600 units away. Even with diminishing returns (if there are any) that's nutty. Increase stun range to 600 or 700 units.
Increase stun, yes. 50% cleave is fine, but it shouldn't hit building or go 600 distance, 350-500 range should be good. (Same with Runed Axe)


Wildsoul: Reduce bear's movespeed, it moves at 490 almost constantly, that's ridiculous.
It doesn't matter if you can't outrun bear if you can outrun the wildsoul. Unnecessary.


Dark Lady: Increase damage of her blink to 20% reduced per hit, rather than 35%. Reduce speed of slow to 20/30/40/50 and reduce manacost to 85/100/115/130.
Probably a good choice, she seriously lacks mana.


Defiler: Reduce range of her nuke to 800 units, and make the cooldown 8 seconds with her passive. Her ultimate needs a HUGE damage reduction, it can keep her alive against 2-3 heroes for an extra 10-15 seconds, and allow her to take down one or two of them, and usually that means getting the third. It should target randomly, not what she targets.
Nuke is fine, can't spam when it hurts the most (early game). Later on it's only really good for anti-push and farming.
Her ultimate doesn't heal her until it's over, I don't see how it keeps her alive. The spirits are already bugged out, sometimes not attacking at all or chasing random targets, this should be fixed before any nerfs.


Legionnaire: Reduce his whirling blade to 75/100/125/150 damage. (It's another case of swiftblade's blade dance ability, just WAY too powerful at early levels to be balanced. It can kill heroes in 4-5 procs, and it can proc A LOT.)
4-5 procs is better than 2 nukes? Spin is fine IMO.

[Soulspawn]

most of these nerfs are pointless or very bad idea when you play more of this game at higher and higher play with more teamwork you will see a lot of stuff changes. only a few nerfs and buff i agreed with.

casters are early game heroes with big damage good farming and limited mana pool.

you complain about zeuss nuke when defilers is aoe and only 20 less damage

[Azureflames]

I think Draddock's reply is pretty good for the most part. I agree with most of his points.

[Talander]

regarding Zeus: You are aware of his passive being bugged so it does % of TOTAL hp instead of CURRENT hp? That might be where the wrong numbers come from (can't check atm).

Yes, the magic reduction should work like in Dota, can't test right now if it is not - but sorry you did the typical old mistake (which really lessens the worth of your post) as Magebane has 55% magic reduce, not 65%.

Agree on Hellbringer/Madman/Torturer/moonqueen orbs (not nuke), but none of the others.
Defiler ulti needs to be pretty strong - I think the dota 6.60 nerfs (less movementspeed, maybe a bit better than 285 though, Bloodstone nerf, phaseboots nerf) are sufficient.

[Colcut]

Magic reduction is strong enough. 50% magic reduction (not impossible to achieve) All the magic heroes are basically useless.
not to mention magic immunity

Buff magic for lvl 17+ and lvl 17+ only!

[Talander]

Magic reduction is strong enough. 50% magic reduction (not impossible to achieve) All the magic heroes are basically useless.
not to mention magic immunity

Buff magic for lvl 17+ and lvl 17+ only!

NO NO NO NO.
It has been discussed soo many times - it would be a very very very bad idea to do so, as that is the time for lategamers to shine, not the earlygamers.

[Ales1]

regarding Zeus: You are aware of his passive being bugged so it does % of TOTAL hp instead of CURRENT hp? That might be where the wrong numbers come from (can't check atm).

Yes, the magic reduction should work like in Dota, can't test right now if it is not - but sorry you did the typical old mistake (which really lessens the worth of your post) as Magebane has 55% magic reduce, not 65%.

Agree on Hellbringer/Madman/Torturer/moonqueen orbs (not nuke), but none of the others.
Defiler ulti needs to be pretty strong - I think the dota 6.60 nerfs (less movementspeed, maybe a bit better than 285 though, Bloodstone nerf, phaseboots nerf) are sufficient.

shaman headdress. you made the typical mistake of assumption.\

much of these issues would probably be fixed by a bloodstone nerf.

Torturers stun is MUCH easier to hit than leshracs was, I feel the aoe is bigger and the delay isnt really enough to not hit it 90% of the time.


I think slither should get a buff mainly because is more item dependent than almost any other agi hero. He has no damage increasing skills or catching skills to make him really effective (sorry, his slow doesnt do all that much). His skills dont do much to anything with the current state of bloodstone mid/late game. Which means he really has no place to do work, beside perhaps early game if he solos and gets a nice lh rec.

[Wihl]

You want the leap of Dark Lady changed but not the ultimate?

[Euphoria]

Please don't call yourself a veteran. This list is wholly unfounded. And half this thread has a tinfoil hat about "it feels different" All the sizes and formulas are ported from dota. If it looks bigger it's because it's a different engine, but all AOEs, movespeed, etc. are working identically. Just because it "LOOKS" different does not mean the mechanics are.

Buff Dark Lady?
Completely destroy blood hunter's only utility of silencing enemy casters?
Screw Swiftblade more than he is?
No such thing as diminishing returns on cleave
Legion is a melee based hero, same as dota, never was a complaint there.
Electrician has no stun it's a channeled shackle, much different.
Accursed was buffed a while ago in dota since he was utterly useless. Still not a comp hero.
Hellbringer is not a threat after his ultimate. You CANNOT catch 3 enemy heroes in the AOE unless you are playing idiots who stand on each other. NO ONE will focus him since he has no way to put out DPS with his no damage slow and low damage DoT. He's not a good babysitter anymore, which is what made him strong.

These changes are all not needed at a decent level of play. Most of the proposed changes would break most of the heroes. You can't up a cooldown by 30-50% and expect a hero to still be useful.



This seems to be a lot of nerfs all focused around an inability to adapt to lane conditions.

[kingcomrade]

Madman, Riki, and Predator need nerfs. They are just insane.

[Frog100]

First off, I feel magic reduction in this game is pretty weak. I've had zeus still doing 200-225 damage with 65% MR on Magebane with his primary thunderbolt nuke. That is absurd and should be closer to 100-150. This, I believe, makes power nukers much stronger than they should be and only susceptible to the current OP physical carries, such as madman.


No you havn't, 65% resistance would mean it would nuke for around 100

I'm not going over the rest because there's too much. The majority are uneeded nerfs and alot of them are to heroes that have been balanced and working fine in DotA as is.

Actually i'll just talk about lowering Night Hound's blink to 100 damage, this wouldn't do anything. The 300-400 damage you're talking about comes from his autoattack damage and backstab bonus, his blink only adds 120 magic damage to it.

[ChimEuphoria]

Please don't call yourself a veteran. This list is wholly unfounded. And half this thread has a tinfoil hat about "it feels different" All the sizes and formulas are ported from dota. If it looks bigger it's because it's a different engine, but all AOEs, movespeed, etc. are working identically.

No, in fact they arent.

Just look at Glacius, Thunderbringer, and Pyromancer's attack animations. They are all near identical to the other ranged spellcasters in the game.

Anyone who has played dota for more than 5 minutes will tell you there is a huge difference in the Attack animations/projectile movement speed of all of these heroes and their Dota counterparts.

In dota, these awkward attack animations were implemented to keep Lina and zues from farming effectively early game without blowing mana/being extremely experienced with the hero.

[pummol]

The OP suffers from the "balance = skill changes" problem. He thinks nerfing and buffing skills is the solution to every hero.

Zeus is Imbalanced in this game because:

1. His cast point is much lower. (main reason)
2. His attack animation and projectile are much better.
3. Silencer, Doom, Drow's silence, all have not been ported.

To balance him, you do not change his skills, because they are well balanced as a set of 4. Put his cast point and attack animation back to the way DotA has it and zeus is far more of a balanced hero.

Please, think outside of the box. Adding and subtracting numbers to skills is the most narrow-minded way you could think of balancing this game.

[kingcomrade]

Adding and subtracting numbers to skills is the most narrow-minded way you could think of balancing this game.
It's also one of the most effective. I'm all for progosumetagame balancing, but you also have to consider the numbers.

I just played a game with Madman and hooooooooooooly crap does this guy need a nerf. 50% slow on a 12 second cooldown which also nukes for 240 or so AND blinks you to the target? For only 120 mana? 90+% IAS for -----30------- seconds? 2x crit at more than 30% proc rate? He's also got an amazing chasing/escape skill.

[Snowster]

Most of these seem like knee jerk reactions when you did badly and don't want to admit it was your own fault.

Out of probably 60-70 games, some inhouse, a lot of pubs, I haven't really found anyone who's outright broken yet.

Madman gets a lot of hate, but he's a late game carry hero. Letting Madman feed is letting N'aix feed, but much worse.

[Epic_Wizard]

First off let me say that I'm probably only at an intermediate skill level for HoN right now and I haven't played much DotA. Just a few LAN games on friend's computers at college. No insults please, I'm not telling you my experience level to be insulted.

Madman: I think about 70% or more of the community has voiced an opinion on Madman in one way or another so lets just leave that to the devs at this point. Really people we all know he can kick you and four of your bestfriend's asses and the ONLY real way to kill him is to nuke him from 100 to dead instantly so lets drop that.

Electrician: If you have a friend or two nearby then Electrician's root isn't all that bad. It's nasty in a 2 on 1 gank but when it's even numbers or the other side has more people then it's just lackluster since you can channeling break it or just smash Electrician's face in. Oh and Jezeriah's magic imune skill (and anyone else's since I think there are one or two other target buffs for magic imune) break the skill's lock and leave Electrician standing around looking stupid or dead on the ground. If anything his other skills need a buff. Then we can talk about his root ability.

Accursed: Honestly the only issue with his ultimate is that it lets him walk into the mana-pool late game and kill people without getting hurt. Other than that Jezeriah is a better hero in most respects and his ultimate is just a call to switch targets for anyone who knows what they are looking at. Either that or you just stun him till it's over and then melt his face all the same.

Hellbringer: I've heard a fair bit about this guy recently but I've seen very little. A refresher orb turns him into an excelent lane pusher if the guy knows how to deal with the two demons but honestly I'd say that anyone who can orchestrate his leaching into anything other than a fast heal early game or a get out of dead card late game when things go wrong is probably going to do far worse to you with any other hero. Creeps die fast an then he's left in the same situation as Accursed and if he does hit a Hero what is he going to do when his friends die? He can smack the hero all he like but it's not going to save him since that demon of his is target 0 since it's always at the front of a push.

Pyro: This is plain and simple a problem with his casting and attack times and with the lower effect of magic defense in this game. After that's fixed he'll be a carbon copy of Lina who is a carry if she gets to end game but struggles early on. (I'm a DotA nublet and played her in a friendly LAN. My rear landed in the next county it god kicked so hard)

Glacius: smaller area would be better. Either that or a shorter cooldown so it's more of a large fight buff like Zephyr's ult instead of something that's expects to be a big damage source. As things stand Glacius is more of a support hero anyways with his slow/root/global mana regen skill combo.

Moon Queen: Plain and simple she's a glass cannon. One with decently long range to be sure but if you put the right focus on her then she's so easy to kill even late game that she shouldn't stay in a fight long either way unless she runs in and hits then runs out. If vamp didn't transfer with each bounce then she wouldn't be able to farm forest creeps for the money she needs to become a real threat late game. The mana drain should hardly be a concern by the time she actually has mana draining items so I'd say leave her as is.

and at this point I'm tired and want to grab something to eat so I'll leave with this point:

With the number of heroes you have suggestions for, excluding those that require some sort of major change, the majority are heroes that would be nerfed as a group should magic damage calculations change so why not just suggest that instead of making a huge, very specific, and rather nit-picking post?

The other thing is that you're suggesting changes to 21 heroes of which 17 are nerfs and 5 are buffs of some sort. While I agree with a few of the buffs (Torturer's Ultimate for example is rarely useful except to run away from someone and deter them) and some of the nerfs the vast majority are "minor" tweaks that would have a huge effect on core skills for most of these heroes.

So what about the rest of the heroes in the game? You've suggested changes to half the heroes in the game (exactly as it turns out). Does this mean that the other half are balanced? More likely it means that they aren't worth playing at present compared to the half you selected for comment. So why don't we buff them and then see if some of these problems don't resolve themselves?

(One last comment on early game heroes: If a guy is better than you early game then you just stand off and get your exp until your team can gank him or, as is the case with several heroes, until you can go farm in the forest for gold and items and then come back to kick his arse. Zephyr starts INSANELY slow against ranged heroes or a lot of melee heroes if he can't get his tornadoes up fast enough. The solution is to sit back and wait till about level ten, farm the heck out of the forest, and at level 16 come back and kick the teeth in on whoever was putting you down early)

[majik]

I lol'd at these:


Zeus: Extend thunderbolt cooldown from 7 seconds to 9 or 11 seconds, or make it 100/160/220/280, rather than a the full 300. (I feel with MR added in this would be a significant nerf, he puts almost any hero at half health instantly with a arc/thunderbolt combo, that combo is repeatable almost 10 times a minute) Also, his ultimate cooldown should be slightly extended by 20-30 seconds. A global nuke every 1 1/2 minutes is insane.


Pyro: His ultimate should be extended to 90 seconds or more, 60 seconds for 980 or 1250 damage is outrageous. Simply an absurd idea to have that much burst damage available every minute.

Pollywog Priest: Reduce shackles by half a second.

Zeus is a glass cannon. That's why he exists. He is a heavy nuker. A global nuke every 1.5 mins is not insane. In dota it's 120 seconds.

Pyromancer does not need a nerf. Easily counterable. Just get the magic resistance hood (sadly I forgot its name D;) and the same goes for Zeus.

For Pollywog the shackles don't need a nerf. He can't even ward trap effectively anymore that he's now mainly a support/disabler for your team.


Also commenting on this:
THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THAT THE NUMBERS ARE CLONED FROM DOTA, WITH A DIFFERENT ENGINE CRUNCHING THE NUMBERS.

THIS MEANS A MAJORITY OF THE THINGS NEED TO BE TWEAKED TO BE MORE BALANCED, BECAUSE THE RESULTS ARE DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT.

Different engine doesn't mean all the numbers are being crunched. Instead of doing 20+ changes, it's better to change the number system.

[Epic_Wizard]

Different engine doesn't mean all the numbers are being crunched. Instead of doing 20+ changes, it's better to change the number system.

Now I feel stupid for typing all of that and not just saying this. I blame the hour and a love for typing >.>

[majik]

Now I feel stupid for typing all of that and not just saying this. I blame the hour and a love for typing >.>
Lol I didn't see there was a second page until I posted.

I think this quote kinda applies here: "If there are 6 million people breaking the law, it's the law that needs changing, not the people" Yes I know there are many flaws to this quote but it still fits perfectly in my opinion.

[TrafBABEH]

Torturer does not need a buff.

[Bahamut]

95% of the asked changes listed seems product of QQ and inexperience IMO