Madman guide to competitive play

[AngelicXx]

First off, this is a guide for people who actually realize just how WEAK madman is. He is really GOOD at dealing damage, but when it comes to taking it, madman is just as squishy if not SQUISHIER than chronos. Madman's job is not to go out and solo gank, because that will never happen unless your playing with noobs or against a team with no teamwork. Madman's job is to farm up enough gold and to safely get kills GIVEN to him by his allies to produce a wonderful end-game CARRY.


Skill build Early game 1-9:

Stalk
Barrel Roll
Barrel Roll
Stats
Barrel Roll
Berserk
Barrel Roll
Stats
Stats


YES, YO DO NOT GET ANYTHING MORE THAN LV1 OF STALK!
Lower cooldown by 6 seconds, and about 30 more damage is NOT WORTH passing up on 3 levels of stats, which is +6dmg, almost +1 armor, +114HP, +104MP and +6% Atk. Spd! these stats are by FAR superior to getting more levels of stalk.
Madman has almost NO HP early game and is VERY suspectible to ganks. Getting stats is so vital its not even funny. Your early game is pretty much you trying to get every last hit while your lane partner (DO NOT SOLO) protects you and holds your hand since he probably has double your HP at lv10. Getting kills is not something that one writes in the guide because it is pretty much all up to player skill and luck. If your getting harassed aka your opponents aren't stupid, play it safe and stalk for 2 or more last hits if you can. Don't spam it and save enough for 1 barrel roll and stalk for emergencies and kill opportunities. IF they are dumb and leaving you alone, make them pay. HARD. Get every last hit and deny and make them wish they had another lane.

Starting items:
Pretender's Crown
Pretender's Crown
Minor Totem
Minor Totem
Healing Potion/Runes of Blight (up to you).

These items give you +6 to all stats, and a health pot/runes to heal up.
These give you maximum survivability, and allow you not to be so squishy while also expanding your mana pool just a bit.
Again, the exact benefits of this starting build are +6dmg, +114HP, +104MP, +.9X armor, and +6% atk. spd. Combined with getting stats, you will easily not be so squishy, have a generous mana pool, and still have a bit bonus damage on the side.


Skill build mid game 10-16
Stats
Berserk
Gash/Stalk/Stats
Gash/Stalk/Stats
Gash/Stalk/Stats
Gash/Stats
Berserk

Mid game, it is all about the situation. There is no 1 way to build a hero that will 100% win everytime. Get more stats if your being targeted and find yourself not living enough or having more mana. Max stalk if you find yourself MOVING ALOT. DO NOT MAX IF YOU JUST WANT MORE DMG, THAT IS JUST DUMB. Get Gash if your doing a GOOD JOB at dealing damage, and find that in team fights you are surviving SAFELY. IF its by a hair of your chin, then get stats. Your mid game is to FARM FARM FARM, but this time, instead of creep, farm heroes WITH HELP FROM ALLIES. NEVER ATTEMPT a gank by yourself, because it will most likely fail unelss your opponents are alone, dumb, and have no sense of teamwork or placement of themselves around the map. You should NEVER STOP FARMING. If you stop farming, its to spend the 10,000gold that you decided to save up because you never stopped farming. Your hero needs so many items to be good its dumb. Thats what carries are, bad heroes unless they have items. Then they are GODS. Gods with the support of their team anyways. Any hero with 1000dmg and crazy attack speed with just get rushed down and disabled by a smart team who wouldn't even let you attack once. Play it safe, stick with the team and assuming this is a high level team play, KS LIKE NO OTHER. Assuming this game is important and meaningful, your allies WANT to give you the kills because your the carry.

Item build mid game-lategame
Steamboots (STR)
Shrunken Head
Shield Breaker
Crowns into fortified bracers ONLY IF YOU NEED MORE HP.


Steamboots on STRENGHT (Red color), will give you much needed HP (madman will NEVER HAVE ENOUGH.) and add more attack speed. It is a must core item for every game. Don't get phase because you dont need armor, you need hp to tank spells. Travels are an extreme luxury and should never be gotten unless you know exactly what your doing, in which you wouldn't be reading this. Shrunken head makes you a true carry. Giving you magic immunity makes every spell caster and hero in the game be able to ONLY deal damage one way: through attacking normally. And in a game of attacking normaly, you will DOMINATE ALL. Shrunken head makes every mage and spellcaster in the game be brought down to a dps level, and get raped by your insane damage. Shieldbreaker is your main DPS item because you have movement and maim, so you aren't playing catchup, and at 4400g it is the most EFFECTIVE DPS item out there. It is an absolute mage killer with -6 armor reduction and the +60damage is just beast. With your built in crit, you should be seeing 4-500crit easily while being magic immune and raping face.

By this time in the game, the match is well decided since you(thecarry), already have farmed your items to do extremely well in battle, and are probably the most considerable threat on your team.

As so, your finishing skill build is:

Late-game skill build:
Whatever is left.
After level 16, max any unfinished skills over stats

Late-game items:
Heart of Behemoth over any item.
Wingbow only if 3 of enemy teams are DPS builds.
You need just more HP to tank while magic immune to deal your damage and rape their mages.


By this point in time, your HP and DPS is so high that you can probably initiate for your time with just your hp pool and shrunken head active. (you will be raped most of the time by a team everytime your shrunken head ISNT active, as such you should probably never team fight without it. Let your team know when its up and when its down). All in all you are doing your job right if you farm up your items and participate in team fights.

Keep in mind that a carry is nothing without his team to support him. Think of him as a man standing on 4 other people's shoulders.



Any questions let me know, please let me know of spell errors.

[Lethe]

I absolutely cannot take any madman guide seriously when it recommends only one level of stalk.

Try doing that on Weaver from Dota, the spells are identical. Tell me how it goes.

[AngelicXx]

It goes well since I go from 400hp to around 5-600hp.
Yeah the cooldown of 13 seconds is totally worth dealing with since my main damage is DPS and not spell damage from shukichi.

[Lethe]

Who said anything about the damage about shukuchi? To me it's just icing on the cake. Stalk/Shukuchi is also an escape skill, and a damn good one at that. You cannot honestly tell me doubling the cd on an escape skill is acceptable, because to be quite blunt, it isn't.

[AngelicXx]

he can actually barrel roll out of a fight, so seeing as he has 2, I can easily survive the cooldown of one of those skills from 12 seconds to 6 in favor of more hp and mana to cast said skills.

[Lethe]

Yea except one skill has a 60 mana cost and one has a 130 mana cost. I really see absolutely no way you can get away with this. Weaver from dota has absolutely **** for stats, shukuchi, and an ult that is superior to barrel roll as an escape skill. EVERY competitive player who has played weaver has gotten more then 1 level of shukuchi, because, believe it or not, there is a huge difference between a stalk with a 7 sec cooldown and a stalk with a 13 sec cooldown. Do you skill weaver like this too? One level of shukuchi+stats? Believe me, you won't get away with this. It's ironic that you post this as a guide to competitive play. High skilled players will absolutely punish you for getting only one level in stalk.

And before you reply saying weaver is alot more squishy then madman, keep in mind competitive players drafted weaver for his watchers (before they were changed) and as such built him like a tank just to survive. Yet they still maxed out shukuchi by level 10.

[FiNGERS]

I absolutely cannot take any madman guide seriously when it recommends only one level of stalk.

Try doing that on Weaver from Dota, the spells are identical. Tell me how it goes.

Weaver doesn't have barrel roll. There is more than 1 way to play Madman. Personally I like to get Hellflower if my enemies are caster-heavy. Depends how much of a role I need to play in team fights.

[Sw4n]

have fun getting dove on every time you come out of stalk because ur a free kill

[Lethe]

Weaver doesn't have barrel roll. There is more than 1 way to play Madman. Personally I like to get Hellflower if my enemies are caster-heavy. Depends how much of a role I need to play in team fights.

Ure right he doesn't have barrel roll. He has time lapse, which is infinitely superior as an escape skill.

[f1008]

eh this isn't a bad guide for beginners but i would not say madman is that bad of a solo character at the beginning. hardly mid game he becomes pretty dirty with Whispering Helm, Abyssal Skull, butterfly and Daemonic Breast Plate. with them items your almost unstoppable.

[Nome]

Stalk is pretty much the best harass skill in the game though = /

[Fkzz]

eh this isn't a bad guide for beginners but i would not say madman is that bad of a solo character at the beginning. hardly mid game he becomes pretty dirty with Whispering Helm, Abyssal Skull, butterfly and Daemonic Breast Plate. with them items your almost unstoppable.

HE CAN BECOME UNTOPPABLE IF u let him farm like another agi late hero. Seriously why put a ult on lvl 6 if he doenst have the sufficient mana to do like bersek -> stalk -> barrel roll, im sure he goes oom after the barrel roll and giving a free kill to the other team if ure chasing recklessly.

[ShadowReaper]

"Madman has almost NO HP early game and is VERY suspectible to ganks. Getting stats is so vital its not even funny."

-- Or you can grab 2 bracers (w/e their new name is, for +6 str, +4 agi & int) and actually get stalk, then last hit and get vangaurd to allow madman to be a beast early to late game.
-bracers and stalk > stats.

[zp3dd4]

Finally a guide that acknowledges that you only need 1 lvl of stalk and that stats are everything. GJ

[Kietharr]

Stalk is his most important skill, his only form of lane control and will often be the only way he gets last hits. Absolutely no reason not to get it lv4 ASAP. With how little HP you have even approaching the creepline around lv5 or 6 can be extremely dangerous, Stalk gives you the ability to run in, kill a creep or two then run to safety every few seconds provided you have mana. It's absolutely essential.

You can't use barrel roll in this manner either, it costs almost 3 times as much mana and leaves you targetable and vulnerable, you might use it twice before you don't have mana for stalk and get slaughtered.

[_Archangel_]

I prefer to focus most carries on midgame power. Madman does not have any midgame power with Steamboots and Shrunken Head (Because having Shield Breaker on top of this by midgame means you've been farming in a lane with no lane opponent for twenty minutes). i.e. Being magic immune is useless when you don't deal any freaking damage. Getting Shield Breaker as a first damage item BEFORE Shrunken Head is not too bad I guess though. However I would probably go:

* Marchers
* Possibly Bottle for ganking
* Nullfire or Elder Parasite, OR Shield Breaker after Steamboots though I feel Nullfire or EP make him more useful to his team early on
* Steamboots
* Shrunken Head
* Wingbow/upgrade to Geometer's Bane when Nullfire's out of charges

I don't think a Behemoth's Heart is necessary after Shrunken Head. You don't see any agility carry hero in DotA ever going Heart AND BKB. They take a mixture of survivability and damage.

Skill build: cooldown reduction in Stalk is reason enough to take it early, it helps in both offense AND defense. You don't see Weavers in DotA take only one level of Stalk, then taking stats. I don't see your logic for stats over it. Get Bracers if you lack in stats. Also, there is NO reason to not get Gash at 10, 12-14. You need it for the midgame power. So skill build should be:

* Stalk
* Barrel
* Barrel
* Stalk
* Barrel
* Ultimate
* Barrel
* Stalk
* Stalk
* Gash
* Ultimate
* Gash
* Gash
* Gash
* Stats
* Ultimate

[xahxah]

Anyone who thinks Madman who deals no damage with just BKB is kidding themselves. The guy deals massive DPS without any items at all just with Stalk/Barrel Roll/Auto Attack. That's not even counting ult :|

[Sabre]

Hellflower is an incredibly useless item to get on Madman. Silencing 1 caster does nothing when the rest of them turn around and pop you. It gives you next to no damage, and your attack speed is not an issue. Shrunken Head lets you take on multiple.

[Vodka]

Stalk is pretty much the best harass skill in the game though = /

Try it against someone with an aoe stun like a good pest or lego. If he calls as soon as he sees that little animation from stalk, you're done for if he has a lane partner.

[Nome]

Try it against someone with an aoe stun like a good pest or lego. If he calls as soon as he sees that little animation from stalk, you're done for if he has a lane partner.

There's no reason Lego would ever be laning against Madman in a competitive game anyway. Pest is more likely, but not that much more. Either way, things like that are exactly why you level Stalk--so it's up again when you're in trouble.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Arguing that you should not take Stalk because you have no HP is not a very good argument IMO

Weaver also had no HP, did you also go Stats / 1 level of Shukuchi?

HP is solved by Steamboots ot Str / 2 Bracers. Also your build does not have Crit until level 17?! Stats is good only in lane, understand that. Even Leoric + Sven players stopped getting stats after level 10 a long time ago.

And by the way, did you play like every game with Glacius on your team? Madman has severe mana problems, something your item build does not address (and don't tell me 3/4/5/6 levels of stats will solve the issue, because it will not).

[AngelicXx]

not getting stalk to level 4 is ridiculous.

i did not read the rest of ur awful build.

Yeah ok buddy.
Join the rest of the line who is crying about how 3 levels wasted in reducing a skill by 6 seconds and increasing magical damage by 30 is so manditory that you have to complain about it.


Hellflower is an incredibly useless item to get on Madman. Silencing 1 caster does nothing when the rest of them turn around and pop you. It gives you next to no damage, and your attack speed is not an issue. Shrunken Head lets you take on multiple.
I also agree with the above post.
Shrunken head is by far way more valuable and way cheaper than hellflower. Madman has low mana usage late game, so by the time you get this it probably won't even be as effective as other items.


Anyone who thinks Madman who deals no damage with just BKB is kidding themselves. The guy deals massive DPS without any items at all just with Stalk/Barrel Roll/Auto Attack. That's not even counting ult :|
I agree with the above post. Madman's DPS is off the charts with his ultimate and crit. Without bkb though he is so easy to kill it is dumb. BKB is beyond essential, its manditory.


I prefer to focus most carries on midgame power. Madman does not have any midgame power with Steamboots and Shrunken Head (Because having Shield Breaker on top of this by midgame means you've been farming in a lane with no lane opponent for twenty minutes). i.e. Being magic immune is useless when you don't deal any freaking damage. Getting Shield Breaker as a first damage item BEFORE Shrunken Head is not too bad I guess though. However I would probably go:

* Marchers
* Possibly Bottle for ganking
* Nullfire or Elder Parasite, OR Shield Breaker after Steamboots though I feel Nullfire or EP make him more useful to his team early on
* Steamboots
* Shrunken Head
* Wingbow/upgrade to Geometer's Bane when Nullfire's out of charges

I don't think a Behemoth's Heart is necessary after Shrunken Head. You don't see any agility carry hero in DotA ever going Heart AND BKB. They take a mixture of survivability and damage.

Skill build: cooldown reduction in Stalk is reason enough to take it early, it helps in both offense AND defense. You don't see Weavers in DotA take only one level of Stalk, then taking stats. I don't see your logic for stats over it. Get Bracers if you lack in stats. Also, there is NO reason to not get Gash at 10, 12-14. You need it for the midgame power. So skill build should be:

* Stalk
* Barrel
* Barrel
* Stalk
* Barrel
* Ultimate
* Barrel
* Stalk
* Stalk
* Gash
* Ultimate
* Gash
* Gash
* Gash
* Stats
* Ultimate
I strongly disagree that madman has no damage mid game.
Just because he has only 100 damage doesn't mean he has no damage. Remember that 100 damage at 200%+ constant Atk.spd is insane dps.
Paired with magic immunity and crit it is rape. This is mid game were talking about too.
If your part of the people complaining about stalk, read the first reply.
Tired of this.


Stalk is his most important skill, his only form of lane control and will often be the only way he gets last hits. Absolutely no reason not to get it lv4 ASAP. With how little HP you have even approaching the creepline around lv5 or 6 can be extremely dangerous, Stalk gives you the ability to run in, kill a creep or two then run to safety every few seconds provided you have mana. It's absolutely essential.

You can't use barrel roll in this manner either, it costs almost 3 times as much mana and leaves you targetable and vulnerable, you might use it twice before you don't have mana for stalk and get slaughtered.
Explain to me why increasing damage of stalk by 30dmg, and reducing cooldown by about 5-6 seconds is worth getting more stats. On second thought, don't. I am tired of responding to these.


Finally a guide that acknowledges that you only need 1 lvl of stalk and that stats are everything. GJ
ty.

"Madman has almost NO HP early game and is VERY suspectible to ganks. Getting stats is so vital its not even funny."

-- Or you can grab 2 bracers (w/e their new name is, for +6 str, +4 agi & int) and actually get stalk, then last hit and get vangaurd to allow madman to be a beast early to late game.
-bracers and stalk > stats.Yeah, if you want to get a vanguard and bracers on madman go for it. I would rather spend the 2200 that your about to spend on the vanguard on ptreads and move on to my other items like BKB. Also, I recommend bracers already if your running low on hp even with stats.


HE CAN BECOME UNTOPPABLE IF u let him farm like another agi late hero. Seriously why put a ult on lvl 6 if he doenst have the sufficient mana to do like bersek -> stalk -> barrel roll, im sure he goes oom after the barrel roll and giving a free kill to the other team if ure chasing recklessly.
With stats he DOES have sufficient mana, but I do see where your comming from. I think the movement and IAS he gets is very important for when he does initiate a fight. As for the part where you die from using your skills, thats more up to the player I think. But again, I do see where your coming from.


Stalk is pretty much the best harass skill in the game though = /
Yeah, if madman was a spellcaster and not a carry I would totally max it out too.


eh this isn't a bad guide for beginners but i would not say madman is that bad of a solo character at the beginning. hardly mid game he becomes pretty dirty with Whispering Helm, Abyssal Skull, butterfly and Daemonic Breast Plate. with them items your almost unstoppable.
Who isn't unstoppable with a Butterfly, Assault Curiass, Abyssal Skull, and Whispering Helm? You realize thats around 13k+ gold you just mention right lol. It would take too long to farm the items you just named but hey if you did more power too ya :)


Ure right he doesn't have barrel roll. He has time lapse, which is infinitely superior as an escape skill.
Yeah time lapse is amazing survivability.


have fun getting dove on every time you come out of stalk because ur a free kill

Is this a stab at stalk, or at madman?


Weaver doesn't have barrel roll. There is more than 1 way to play Madman. Personally I like to get Hellflower if my enemies are caster-heavy. Depends how much of a role I need to play in team fights.
I still think bkb over hellflower any day to deal with spellcasters. But do what you want, im just giving advice :)


Yea except one skill has a 60 mana cost and one has a 130 mana cost. I really see absolutely no way you can get away with this. Weaver from dota has absolutely **** for stats, shukuchi, and an ult that is superior to barrel roll as an escape skill. EVERY competitive player who has played weaver has gotten more then 1 level of shukuchi, because, believe it or not, there is a huge difference between a stalk with a 7 sec cooldown and a stalk with a 13 sec cooldown. Do you skill weaver like this too? One level of shukuchi+stats? Believe me, you won't get away with this. It's ironic that you post this as a guide to competitive play. High skilled players will absolutely punish you for getting only one level in stalk.

And before you reply saying weaver is alot more squishy then madman, keep in mind competitive players drafted weaver for his watchers (before they were changed) and as such built him like a tank just to survive. Yet they still maxed out shukuchi by level 10.
Oh man, you people just love comparing madman to weaver.
Can you get it through your head that weaver is not madman? I won't get away with this? What do you mean? So guy going to come and beat me down for posting how madman should be played? I am really tired of all of you complaining about this. I posted how he should be played at higher levels because chances are you aren't going to use poke at your enemies too much since they probably have the brains enough to use a ward since according to you guys it should be spammed. Nobody is stupid enough to let weaver sit in a lane and spam shukichi, the lane gets warded and he gets stunned down because he has no hp. Weaver gets wards/stats/orb and 1 lvl of shukichi and then proceeds to max out whatever he needs after ult be it more watchers, more stats, or even more shukichi. Done period done.


Try it against someone with an aoe stun like a good pest or lego. If he calls as soon as he sees that little animation from stalk, you're done for if he has a lane partner.
the above post is insightful

[Isin]

Madman guide to competitive play:

Don't pick him. Pick scout instead; at least he has free wards.

[AngelicXx]

with true sight, dont forget that.

[xahxah]

Madman guide to competitive play:

Don't pick him. Pick scout instead; at least he has free wards.


Madman guide to competitive play




Lane with Glacius, Jester, or another babysitter and go rofl.

[ilmer]

Yeah ok buddy.
Join the rest of the line who is crying about how 3 levels wasted in reducing a skill by 6 seconds and increasing magical damage by 30 is so manditory that you have to complain about it.


let me explain.

the reason you get 4 levels in stalk is not because the extra 30 damage.. its because of the cooldown and the MAX MOVEMENT SPEED.

the ability to run at 522 movement speed every 6 seconds is a HUGE ADVANTAGE.

+... ur skill build was, stalk - BR - BR - stats.. - BR- ULT...

can u please tell me how much help this ^ is really gonna do

+2 FREAKING STATS
YAY!!!!!

u get stalk to level 4.
if u argue ur downs. end of story

[Marko_RS]

well u mb don't buld 1 lvl of stalk..build 2, rest to stats. or biuld 3 if u prefer. But not all 4 :)

[BaghdadAssUp]

let me explain.

the reason you get 4 levels in stalk is not because the extra 30 damage.. its because of the cooldown and the MAX MOVEMENT SPEED.

the ability to run at 522 movement speed every 6 seconds is a HUGE ADVANTAGE.

+... ur skill build was, stalk - BR - BR - stats.. - BR- ULT...

can u please tell me how much help this ^ is really gonna do

+2 FREAKING STATS
YAY!!!!!

u get stalk to level 4.
if u argue ur downs. end of story

Agreed, Stalk > Barrel Roll > Stalk you can never be sure that you've escaped with just one Stalk and Barrel Roll. Also with the movement speed advantage, even if you're dusted, you could escape much faster. That's why we level Stalk to level 4.

[AnHero]

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that in any serious game, Madman won't be doing anything but sitting in the forest or farming empty lanes. But then again, if it's a serious game they probably won't be using madman.

[Lethe]

HunteR is better at this game than you are, so I'm pretty sure I'd listen to him :\



Hostile much? Seriously. If you're going to flaunt your e-penis around on this forum, at least get some better stats.

First of all, I've played with and against hunter. He is not better then me.

Second of all, you actually think you can prioritize diffusal blade over bkb and blink on SF. You think that VS should farm for diffusal when up against an omni. I don't know how dumb you can possibly get. I should sig that too. No one who has won CEVO can be so competitive-minded handicapped. Do I come off as arrogant on these forums? Maybe to those who think they are good but are not, such as yourself and OP. AKA the dumb pub smashers who can't do anything against players that are actually skilled. Believe it or not I do try to help new players. I will, however, not tolerate people who think they are pro and try to share flawed guides with less-skilled players. If you are going to teach new players, great, at least teach them the right way.

Getting one level of stalk in competitive play is not going to cut it. When madman is used in competitive play, just watch for yourself.

I don't know why you would bring stats into this argument. I play 80% non-pub games and my stats are still superior to yours. Furthermore, stats are going to get reset. I don't need to smash pubs to boost my stats, which is alot more then can be said about most people.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Games currently end in about 30 minutes due to the fact that there is no Glyph and almost all (good) games have Defiler + Pollywog Priests in them

Consequently, suggesting Stats as your main skill build, pretty much leaves you with a hero with a shitty invis (coz you have level 1 lol), blink, NO crit, and a low duration ult that will get purged as soo as people realize that Electrician owns Madman like it's the 4th of July.

[TLSHadow]

JohnnyUtah would beg to differ.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

JohnnyUtah would beg to differ.

JohnnyUtah would be too busy playing Predator :P

[GamlaSonn]

I'd like to say that I find your skill distributions interesting :)

I'm anxious to play some madman now - and perhaps try skilling stats points!

But naaaah, i prefer Gash

[stevefox]

Chill on the personal attacks, flames, etc. If you want to contribute to a meaningful and helpful hero guide, back up your arguments with logical, well reasoned thoughts based on game mechanics and facts - not past experience or who's on your buddy list.