Forsaken Archer

[pk_thunder]

Why are there idiots in this thread saying that Frostburn is better than Frostwolf?

Frostwolf has a -20% attack speed reduction and 30% snare which you can land on the entire enemy team with split arrows, which is a huge help in team fights.

It's basically a -20% to auto attack damage to the entire enemy team.

What does Frostburn give you? More movement speed? Plz.

Bad guide.
this is outdated... (frostburn nerf was bad)

and idk if u understand this or not but frostwolf require u to farm a 2.1k item and 1.2k item

I mean don't u just love money hoarding?

[Rean]

this is outdated... (frostburn nerf was bad)

i actually updated the guide few days ago
he is just stupid

[pk_thunder]

i actually updated the guide few days ago
he is just stupid
ik, just saying that the section with the sign that says outdated is outdated

[Rean]

ok,with latest patch frostburn back on road
5% slow with 15% max is acceptable
but i am not sure if its better than frostwolf now

[Pentame]

nice

[pk_thunder]

ok,with latest patch frostburn back on road
5% slow with 15% max is acceptable
but i am not sure if its better than frostwolf now
frostwolf did just get the 500g recipe nerf

imho they are all good now

[Rean]

i feel like re-designing this guide and adding some information
expect updates quite soon

[Shelok]

Eh, the point of getting it Frostburn over Frostskull is having Firebrand @ 2200 gold + thunderclaw. Gimps that say thunderclaw is bad on FA are silly. I base my FA entirely on IAS, steamboots + thunderclaw + frostburn + whispering (wolf ancient for 30% base dmg to you AND skeles) + Demonic (optional depending on other team). Note : Demonic also increases skele attack speed, which can tip the scale late game.

Skeles win the game for FA all the way till the end.

By level 3 you'll have 4 skeles and volley, VERY easy to get first blood. Volley/Toggle Skeles and just right click your enemy. Let the skeles kill your target, even if it means tower diving a couple hits. The Skele's dot will finish them off. You can do this the entire game, viable roaming hero IMO.

[Nani`]

imo, Shrunken Head should be considered getting before finishing Frostwolf/-burn (f.e after you get Icebrand) against certain, disable heavy line up, especially if your team hasn't got a good way to cover your ulti, like Chronos Ult, Vindi, maybe Behemoth or even a tanky Zeph + Ult.
Most of your damage in early team fights, "big" ganks comes from your ulti and you don't want it to get interupted.
Everything following is m opinion, and might be debateable:
Else Frostwolf is core on her. If -30% slow on half of the enemy team isn't ridiculous, then I don't know what is. Right now, Frostburn pales compared to Frostwolf, although it costs less, because the surviveability of Frostwolf is quite huge. Though it can be built and split up later.
Also, Thunderclaw may be a good item on her, but I don't really see it fitting anywhere into my build. Rather have a Frostwolf, Shrunken, Geo Bane, Savage Mace + Steamboots/Ghost Marchers , TP scroll

[Shelok]

Your build is one heavy, hard-carry build dude. Seems like you're aiming for late game for most of your kills. I'd rather get consistant kills through the entire game. I can drop a tower at the 6 minute mark, if I'm mid opting skeles first. :o

If you have the patience to farm hard carry items every time you play FA, then go for it. I'd rather have my item build more synergic ganking based on the time opposed to farming the jungle half the game.

[Rean]

if you want gank-based/tower-eater FA,get nullfire+shieldbreaker+puzzlebox
not shitty thunderclaw

[Shelok]

if you want gank-based/tower-eater FA,get nullfire+shieldbreaker+puzzlebox
not shitty thunderclaw


Puzzlebox on FA, seriously? ;x

[Rean]

why not?
they provide a lot of dps. add shieldbreaker there,and its even better
+they can dps while u channel ult
+they counter aoe team/invis
+they give u haste aura

archer:
Damage: 91 (Piercing)
Armor: 10

warrior:
Damage: 61 (Normal)
Armor: 10

they give +150dps for 35 seconds
its a great item for ganking/pushing
and it costs only 4400

[Shelok]

Never considered it a plausable item for FA and I'm an FA fanatic, I can try a round with it I suppose ;o.

I still stand by my thunderclaw with no splishot build, if my build gets me 2.9+ KDR in non-em games then I must be doing something correclty. FA is the most horrific and versatile hero in the game and she's going to have my babies.

[Shelok]

So far as phase boots vrs steamboots, its a no brainer. If you opt steamboots AGI and Firebrand for Frostburn your getting both IAS and movement speed. Phaseboots fail ;o. I couldn't fathom having a slow, yet hard-hitting FA. That'd drive me nuts, IAS IS TEH WIN.

Why IAS? Savage Mace on FA is pwn, Thunderclaw is pwn, more shots fired = higher % chance to proc either. The build itself isn't what wins, I've played TOO MANY games with FA. I bet a 5th of all FA matches are mine. Self-inflated ego, floating away ;o

[Rean]

thunderclaw is a bad item on almost any hero
u should drop it,really

[Shelok]

How is it bad when it's obtainable around 10-11 minutes and can get you a lot of kills, even KS heroes. It more than pays for itself. I don't have to use skeletons to farm because of this item so I'm able to defend myself at all times. Kite Farming FTW, kthx

[Rean]

if its so good then why not a single decent player gets it on anyone except engineer?

[pk_thunder]

Eh, the point of getting it Frostburn over Frostskull is having Firebrand @ 2200 gold + thunderclaw. Gimps that say thunderclaw is bad on FA are silly. I base my FA entirely on IAS, steamboots + thunderclaw + frostburn + whispering (wolf ancient for 30% base dmg to you AND skeles) + Demonic (optional depending on other team). Note : Demonic also increases skele attack speed, which can tip the scale late game.

Skeles win the game for FA all the way till the end.

By level 3 you'll have 4 skeles and volley, VERY easy to get first blood. Volley/Toggle Skeles and just right click your enemy. Let the skeles kill your target, even if it means tower diving a couple hits. The Skele's dot will finish them off. You can do this the entire game, viable roaming hero IMO.
I used to, but skellies are worthless late game (magic dmg, nice but not useful at all)

I loved the IAS build on archer, but the problem now is the frostburn nerf, frostburn allowed u +30 atk spd with ridiculous str and agi stats.

now it got overnerfed (it's ok now, needs another small buff) and I'd rather go with a shrunken head right after and hard hitting items (aka no charged hammer)

easy bloodlust? not rly, if they're retarded and don't understand that you can kill him in 4 clicks then ur playing em with nubs


imo, Shrunken Head should be considered getting before finishing Frostwolf/-burn (f.e after you get Icebrand) against certain, disable heavy line up, especially if your team hasn't got a good way to cover your ulti, like Chronos Ult, Vindi, maybe Behemoth or even a tanky Zeph + Ult.
Most of your damage in early team fights, "big" ganks comes from your ulti and you don't want it to get interupted.
Everything following is m opinion, and might be debateable:
Else Frostwolf is core on her. If -30% slow on half of the enemy team isn't ridiculous, then I don't know what is. Right now, Frostburn pales compared to Frostwolf, although it costs less, because the surviveability of Frostwolf is quite huge. Though it can be built and split up later.
Also, Thunderclaw may be a good item on her, but I don't really see it fitting anywhere into my build. Rather have a Frostwolf, Shrunken, Geo Bane, Savage Mace + Steamboots/Ghost Marchers , TP scroll
ic ur point, but the 14% movement speed (from firebrand) will help you position especially if u have steam boots (which is imho the right way to build her cus if ur ganking without other disables u suck), if you are going frostwolf I think this is probably the option to go

frostwolf is new core, frostburn nerf was just too horrible (ok now, needs a small buff still).



Your build is one heavy, hard-carry build dude. Seems like you're aiming for late game for most of your kills. I'd rather get consistant kills through the entire game. I can drop a tower at the 6 minute mark, if I'm mid opting skeles first. :o

If you have the patience to farm hard carry items every time you play FA, then go for it. I'd rather have my item build more synergic ganking based on the time opposed to farming the jungle half the game.
I like ur style...
well I used to like ur style

it's easy to drop a tower early, but the problem here is that u want ur stun rather than ur atk boost

the stun is for ganks/escapes

also thunderclaw is an ok item on archer, but I would still aim for a shrunken...

[Nani`]

Your build is one heavy, hard-carry build dude. Seems like you're aiming for late game for most of your kills. I'd rather get consistant kills through the entire game. I can drop a tower at the 6 minute mark, if I'm mid opting skeles first. :o

If you have the patience to farm hard carry items every time you play FA, then go for it. I'd rather have my item build more synergic ganking based on the time opposed to farming the jungle half the game.

aiming for expensive items doesnt automatically mean, you gotta go late game. Plus these items do have great synergy and also allow for good ganking (honestly most of the damage in early/mid ganks come from stun + skellies + ult, no need for attack boosting items).
And skellies are good for pushing yeah, but that isnt always an option. You might get owned in lane or w/e-->no pushing.

@pk thunder: thats why i said, you could buy frostburn and then split it into frostwolf and geo bane, which are both absolutely great items on forsaken

[pk_thunder]

@pk thunder: thats why i said, you could buy frostburn and then split it into frostwolf and geo bane, which are both absolutely great items on forsaken
my post was a huge wall of txt in the advanced edit, so it was hard to read >.>

btw thunderclaw is for charged hammer (mostly for it's atk speed boost and dmg, cl is a nice bonus)

imo I'd still save geobane for late game luxury (after savage mace)

[Rean]

in my recent games i just went frostburn -> (if HEAVY disables then Shrunken. if not go to next item) -> frostwolf ->geometers
had shitloads of hp and good amount of dps
with such amount of hp most of the times u dont even need shrunken.

won about 4 games in a row. imo this build doesnt have downsides. u have lots of hp,painful ult,painful skellies+slow

[pk_thunder]

in my recent games i just went frostburn -> (if HEAVY disables then Shrunken. if not go to next item) -> frostwolf ->geometers
had shitloads of hp and good amount of dps
with such amount of hp most of the times u dont even need shrunken.

won about 4 games in a row. imo this build doesnt have downsides. u have lots of hp,painful ult,painful skellies+slow
geo bane is not needed

imho I'd rush the shrunken right after frostburn -> split to frostwolf if they have nukes (no strong disables)

geo bane can be gotten after savage mace (it's such a good item, synergizes so well with archer and makes her hit with shitloads of dmg)

[Rean]

u know,i just did testing in practice.
core: frostburn+steamboots (5850 total cost)
target: 25lvl lego with 6 glowstones (most hp to give chance to proc items)

riftshards lvl 4 (10350 total) = 18 seconds
charged hammer (10350 total) = 15 seconds
savage mace (10250 total) = 14.5 seconds
geometers from disassembled frostburn+dancing blade+steamstaff (9750 total) = 12 seconds

says it all,no?
if there is not much aoe damage in enemy team,geometers will ALWAYS be the better choice

also should move wingbow higher now,its better than frostwolf lol

[pk_thunder]

u know,i just did testing in practice.
core: frostburn+steamboots (5850 total cost)
target: 25lvl lego with 6 glowstones (most hp to give chance to proc items)

riftshards lvl 4 (10350 total) = 18 seconds
charged hammer (10350 total) = 15 seconds
savage mace (10250 total) = 14.5 seconds
geometers from disassembled frostburn+dancing blade+steamstaff (9750 total) = 12 seconds

says it all,no?
if there is not much aoe damage in enemy team,geometers will ALWAYS be the better choice

also should move wingbow higher now,its better than frostwolf lol
key word is no aoe

if the team doesn't have aoe then they already fail, so...

btw test shieldbreaker and harkons (as you can see, I can't)

try using puppet's dummy or something else, he has his own stats, better to use something with 0 everything...

also this is proc vs static so ~.~

does split shot apply to illu? if not then yeah...

[Rean]

split fire doesnt work on illu
shieldbreaker wont work,we alrdy have modifier (no,i dont want to add manual modifier change to guide)
harkons is a waste 100%

dont forget that geometers also dispells debuffs from you. its a must-have item against corrupted disciple,succubus and others

anyway,difference its too small so its all a matter of choice. thats why i listed all this items in my guide in no particular order,because it doesnt matter much

[pk_thunder]

split fire doesnt work on illu
shieldbreaker wont work,we alrdy have modifier (no,i dont want to add manual modifier change to guide)
harkons is a waste 100%

dont forget that geometers also dispells debuffs from you. its a must-have item against corrupted disciple,succubus and others

anyway,difference its too small so its all a matter of choice. thats why i listed all this items in my guide in no particular order,because it doesnt matter much
oh ur testing with frostburn

you should retest savage mace vs geobane with 4 legios (give urself tons of tanky items and make them hit you) should be more accurate

then redo it with a non aoe hero (or at least one without a passive that does that, hitting the main archer only, then again but hitting illu too?)

[Rean]

redesigned. imo looks better now D:

[Shelok]

Wouldn't you think a better luxury item for FA would be DB, the -Armor and +IAS/Armor applies to skeles too. It really does make a huge difference late game.

[Rean]

and +0 damage. denied

[SHJordan]

Hey Rean, as starting items, wouldn't be better getting 1x soulscream+3x minor totem+2x runes+2x mana pots?

[Rean]

yep,it would be better. thanks
and its duck boots,not soulscream

[SHJordan]

Oh sorry... i was on a rush xD lazy mind myself =]

[pk_thunder]

and +0 damage. denied
dbplate is fine item

only works if ur not main carry tho...



and I think savage mace should be (at least can) be gotten before wingbow

[Rean]

i prefer wingbow just because of evasion
i am fan of items that increase both survivability and damage,not just damage
while savage can be better than wingbow in terms of DPS,it doesnt help you to stay alive longer
since dead people cant dps i think wingbow is better choice

wingbow: +30 agility,+30 damage,+30 attack speed,+30% evasion -> +60 damage,+60 attack speed,+30% evasion,+4.2 armor
savage mace: +88 damage,+15 attack speed,+true strike and 35% to deal 100 bonus damage and ministun

i think its all situational. i'd get savage mace before wingbow only if there are a lot of channel abilities in game that need to be interrupted,enemy carry is making wingbow or enemy team dont have physical dps (which is RARE).

in all other cases i think staying alive WHILE dealing shitloads of damage should be the ultimate goal.

[pk_thunder]

i prefer wingbow just because of evasion
i am fan of items that increase both survivability and damage,not just damage
while savage can be better than wingbow in terms of DPS,it doesnt help you to stay alive longer
since dead people cant dps i think wingbow is better choice

wingbow: +30 agility,+30 damage,+30 attack speed,+30% evasion -> +60 damage,+60 attack speed,+30% evasion,+4.2 armor
savage mace: +88 damage,+15 attack speed,+true strike and 35% to deal 100 bonus damage and ministun

i think its all situational. i'd get savage mace before wingbow only if there are a lot of channel abilities in game that need to be interrupted,enemy carry is making wingbow or enemy team dont have physical dps (which is RARE).

in all other cases i think staying alive WHILE dealing shitloads of damage should be the ultimate goal.
did u notice the "can"?

I'm just saying if ur team has nuff disables or something u should get that savage mace

and u can evade harkons

[Rean]

i added detailed explanation in which situations savage mace should be gotten over wingbow

offtop: i hope u will buy the game? i will miss you :[

[pk_thunder]

i added detailed explanation in which situations savage mace should be gotten over wingbow

offtop: i hope u will buy the game? i will miss you :[
ofc I will buy ;P (I have to get it from a friend and he'll buy when he has a laptop but he's getting that in like a week so)

u should buddy me sometime



ontopic: how is a harkons archer bad?

harkons works with any hero, no matter now retarded he is (scout, with most ppl at the controls that is)

I mean it'll work really well if u have certain heroes on ur team


btw puppet's ult also works with archer (he can set his puppet in a line with the enemy and u can pew pew pew away)

[Rean]

harkon is a waste imo
scout has 4 burst attacks,puppet has splash and he is int
fa has nothing except autoattack

[pk_thunder]

harkon is a waste imo
scout has 4 burst attacks,puppet has splash and he is int
fa has nothing except autoattack
4 split arrows is nothing? better than spash if u're hitting all enemies

[Rean]

until S2 will make split fire toggle "HEROES ONLY" like they did with MQ,its too unreliable

[pk_thunder]

until S2 will make split fire toggle "HEROES ONLY" like they did with MQ,its too unreliable
true, but u're not always by creeps either...

[Rean]

but building hero with thought "sometimes there wont be creeps around" is stupid
most battles happen on lanes anyway

[pk_thunder]

but building hero with thought "sometimes there wont be creeps around" is stupid
most battles happen on lanes anyway
u'll kill the creeps in a little anyways

at least ur main target will get hit

it's like valk's old call, didn't always do the double dmg on heroes but it was aoe...

anyways this basically applies to all other items, cus they can hit creeps too...

[Rean]

yes and thats why no1 is using split fire
because its worthless

[pk_thunder]

yes and thats why no1 is using split fire
because its worthless
nice to use in their base....

or urs

[Rean]

its only good when u have 200+ damage + modifier
doesnt happen that often,game is usually over by that time

[pk_thunder]

hmmm

btw harkons + whispering helm stacks so...

[Rean]

finally,its premium now!

[pk_thunder]

finally,its premium now!
gratz on prem :D

[Newti]

gz on prem

[pk_thunder]

some things to look at:
you can't just say wingbow gives +60 dmg, it gives +30 agi, which is base dmg and different than just +60 dmg

I'd add shieldbreaker and harkons (if ur team is -armor/-magic armor or have tons of magic dmg then it synergizes well) to the "viable but not recommended" list

I'd change the "viable but not recommended" list to be called "situational"

also thunderclaw/charged hammer works well if you or your team has a harkons/-magic armor strat

[Rean]

done

wont add harkons because its just bad. +10 attack speed and +25 damage,+455 mana (150% mana regen is wasted)
u will run out of mana pretty fast because of high attack speed, volley spam and 300 mana ultimate
if u get 6k damage item instead u will have bigger damage output even without armor ignoring

i doubt i will change my mind about harkons before i see a replay where it steamrolled enemy team

just did testing, fa with frostburn+steamboots+harkons on lvl 16 (12k gold,average picture)
130-140 damage,1000 mana

awful.

[pk_thunder]

done

wont add harkons because its just bad. +10 attack speed and +25 damage,+455 mana (150% mana regen is wasted)
u will run out of mana pretty fast because of high attack speed, volley spam and 300 mana ultimate
if u get 6k damage item instead u will have bigger damage output even without armor ignoring

i doubt i will change my mind about harkons before i see a replay where it steamrolled enemy team

just did testing, fa with frostburn+steamboots+harkons on lvl 16 (12k gold,average picture)
130-140 damage,1000 mana

awful.
you shouldn't get harkons early, it's late luxury if they are stacking too much armor...

sometimes if u team has nuff magic dmg with -magic armor it's worth the investment

btw if u ever build shieldbreaker shrunken is ALWAYS first

[Rean]

not on FA
harkons users: scout+puppet
puppet is int so he benefits A LOT from it. +60damage and +10 attack speed aswell as mana
scout=4 rapid attacks + only damage items (he doesnt need attack speed) and scout dont have mana-consuming skills
fa=attack speed items,mana-eater ultimate + spammable spell. this things make sure you WILL run out of mana fast.

its just not viable at all

[pk_thunder]

not on FA
harkons users: scout+puppet
puppet is int so he benefits A LOT from it. +60damage and +10 attack speed aswell as mana
scout=4 rapid attacks + only damage items (he doesnt need attack speed) and scout dont have mana-consuming skills
fa=attack speed items,mana-eater ultimate + spammable spell. this things make sure you WILL run out of mana fast.

its just not viable at all
paired with frostwolf it's fine

and u can switch it back and forth pretty easily

[Rean]

paired with frostwolf you will do same 150-200 damage deep late instead of 250-300

[pk_thunder]

paired with frostwolf you will do same 150-200 damage deep late instead of 250-300
wrong items, soz, I meant whispering helm

you can stack ancients, have life steal, and do magic dmg :D

[Rean]

why not just get shieldbreaker,stack ancients,have lifesteal and deal shitloads of dmg?

[Regecide]

Hey it's me pk thunder on my friends iPod touch. It's is a waste to have two atk mods so yeah. Btw I was too lazy to log off his acc

[Rean]

shieldbreaker debuff lasts 5 seconds
just hit once then change to another modifier

[pk_thunder]

shieldbreaker debuff lasts 5 seconds
just hit once then change to another modifier
you're still not getting max effectiveness of lifesteal

it's like basher, it's an item with it's use but it's too price for what it gives

if ur swaping atk mods (as long as one is lifesteal) it is not worth it because you'll generally miss 1 lifesteal hit, which could result in a death

[Rean]

who gets lifesteal on FA anyway
i dont :P

[Benny`]

since dead people cant dps i think wingbow is better choice

Keep in mind dead enemies can't DPS either.

PS why has the thread title not been edited when it was moved?

[pk_thunder]

who gets lifesteal on FA anyway
i dont :P
true, but you get it for the ancient stacking part

it synergizes with ult (like puzzlebox)

and lifesteal is bonus

[Rean]

but lifesteal means u should forget about frostburn,frostwolf and shieldbreaker
which is a not a good thing to do
i think its not worth ability to do ancient stacking
before lifesteal become a modifier it was viable
right now i highly doubt it

[pk_thunder]

but lifesteal means u should forget about frostburn,frostwolf and shieldbreaker
which is a not a good thing to do
i think its not worth ability to do ancient stacking
before lifesteal become a modifier it was viable
right now i highly doubt it
HARKONS

=.=

[Rean]

harkons is trash,i think we alrdy discussed it ;_;
tell me your FULL build with harkons and i will do some testing right now (place items in order of buying)

[pk_thunder]

harkons is trash,i think we alrdy discussed it ;_;
tell me your FULL build with harkons and i will do some testing right now (place items in order of buying)
I didn't have time to test harkons (been playing some other fun heroes)

I'd go:

gmarchers/steam/whispering helm -> soulscream ring/gmarchers/steam -> whispering helm/soulscream ring -> harkons -> thunderclaw -> charged hammer

I'm not sure where shrunken head fits in there but it should probably be after whispering helm/harkons

btw this only works if you're team has tons of magic dmg or has -magic armor strat going, otherwise this should not work

[Rean]

btw this only works if you're team has tons of magic dmg or has -magic armor strat going, otherwise this should not work

if your team has shitloads of magic damage u just ult and get genocide
after everyone used their ultimates that -magic armor wont matter much because fight will be alrdy over

[pk_thunder]

if your team has shitloads of magic damage u just ult and get genocide
after everyone used their ultimates that -magic armor wont matter much because fight will be alrdy over
-magic armor won't do u much?!?!

if they are smart they get headdress the it's even more important to get a harkons

[Rean]

if they get headdress and idol against heavy magic damage team (which is obvious) then there is COMPLETELY no point in going lifesteal+harkons instead of cookie-cutter damage build ;)

[pk_thunder]

if they get headdress and idol against heavy magic damage team (which is obvious) then there is COMPLETELY no point in going lifesteal+harkons instead of cookie-cutter damage build ;)
so ur saying :pest:/shieldbreaker is worthless cus ppl can just buy an item and then it'll counter it...

[Rean]

no1 buys shieldbreaker on support heroes to buff team damage for same reason that no1 buys harkons on semi-carries to buff team damage
you can buy vestments for 400g and completely nullify harkons+decrease damage from spells. and its viable and a smart move because most damage every hero receives comes from spells.
but you wont buy ringmail to nullify shieldbreaker because its just stupid and wont save you from shitloads of damage.

[pk_thunder]

no1 buys shieldbreaker on support heroes to buff team damage for same reason that no1 buys harkons on semi-carries to buff team damage
you can buy vestments for 400g and completely nullify harkons+decrease damage from spells. and its viable and a smart move because most damage every hero receives comes from spells.
but you wont buy ringmail to nullify shieldbreaker because its just stupid and wont save you from shitloads of damage.
I don't get it

(semi) carrys buy harkons to do magic dmg and help team add dps (makes some support/nuke heroes come out a little more lategame)

(semi) carrys buy shieldbreaker to do physical dmg when the team already has a -armor strat going on


say I have 0 armor/magic armor

I can buy 1 platemails to have +4 armor total (after shieldbreaker), thus making u hit less

you can stack them


I can only buy 1 magic vestment to nullify harkons debuff, but now I am doing basically still doing true dmg to you

if I buy headdress then I have the highest magic armor buff, of 10, which makes it 5 after harkons


if I am a tank hero and I can easily stack armor so most physical hits does reduced dmg

if I am vs someone with harkons, the best I can do is buy a barrior idol and have a 400 magic shield and +5 magic armor.

the problem is if I have a barrior idol, archer can just 2 hits the shield and I only get +5 magic armor or he can turn harkons off until the effect has gone off or until I am dead. I will most likely not suspect archer will build a harkons and it will cost a lot to stack armor and get magic armor at the same time

[Rean]

I don't get it

(semi) carrys buy harkons to do magic dmg and help team add dps (makes some support/nuke heroes come out a little more lategame)--------- name me few except scout and puppet

(semi) carrys buy shieldbreaker to do physical dmg when the team already has a -armor strat going on ------------no,thats because carry benefits a lot from it even without massive -armor (shieldbreaker swift for example)


say I have 0 armor/magic armor ---------(lets not step into "what if its vacuum" discussions because both armor and magic armor have diminishings)

if I am a tank hero and I can easily stack armor so most physical hits does reduced dmg

if I am vs someone with harkons, the best I can do is buy a barrior idol and have a 400 magic shield and +5 magic armor.

the problem is if I have a barrior idol, archer can just 2 hits the shield and I only get +5 magic armor or he can turn harkons off until the effect has gone off or until I am dead. I will most likely not suspect archer will build a harkons and it will cost a lot to stack armor and get magic armor at the same time --------------why would you focus on a tank anyway? its just stupid. like some1 will focus fire legionaire lol. if this "tank" focuses on +armor/magic armor items it means he deal close to zero damage. heroes that do close to zero damage are not threats at all.i will just destroy his whole team then watch this "tank" run from 2-3-4-5 of us
:fors:

[pk_thunder]

:fors:
:soulr::defi::corr:

sometime u just want them dead

[Rean]

with harkons u will just die to them
cd will conduit you
SR will just outheal until you run out of mana
defiler will just rape you with ultimate

remember,FA has no scaling abilities. you just listed 3 carries who outcarry her easily
FA is no match for them

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=1102137 defiler made both headdress and barbed. and what will you do to her with harkons? she has shitloads of magic armor,shitloads of hp,plenty of armor and painful ultimate

[bfbfbfbf]

been waiting for a fa premium guide which i can trust. a true very good guide, thanks mate!

really helped me

[Benny`]

You know you could have read this guide when it wasn't premium and made up your own mind on wether to trust it or not lol?

[Rean]

You know you could have read this guide when it wasn't premium and made up your own mind on wether to trust it or not lol?
its even more fun that this guide is THE ONLY FA guide on whole forums
no1 else has written it

there is some roamer-FA fail guide but that doesnt count

[pk_thunder]

with harkons u will just die to them
cd will conduit you
SR will just outheal until you run out of mana
defiler will just rape you with ultimate

remember,FA has no scaling abilities. you just listed 3 carries who outcarry her easily
FA is no match for them

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=1102137 defiler made both headdress and barbed. and what will you do to her with harkons? she has shitloads of magic armor,shitloads of hp,plenty of armor and painful ultimate
the point is too add dps

in those cases u're probably not the main carry (you shouldn't be :D)

I'm saying if u want to help ur carry harkons is a nice addition if they have chosen to go harkons and/or if ur team can put out shetloads of magic dmg (:magm:)

also if ur team decides to get some barbed armor it'll make it even more effective ;P

[Rean]

you are not support,you are not here to help team
your job is to carry them to victory

[pk_thunder]

you are not support,you are not here to help team
your job is to carry them to victory
so u're saying if it's :swif::fors: on a team then archer should carry???

[Rean]

archer is semi carry
means u carry all the time just like valkyrie
it doesnt mean that you rice-farm for 40 mins
it means u pwn early with skellies,and own mid/late with ultimate and autoattack

[pk_thunder]

archer is semi carry
means u carry all the time just like valkyrie
it doesnt mean that you rice-farm for 40 mins
it means u pwn early with skellies,and own mid/late with ultimate and autoattack
u do know that ult has nice synergy for harkons too =.=

plus you could stack ancients for ur hard carry, especially because it's an atk mod now...

[Rean]

you do know that u wont be using ultimate from 600 range right?
and stacking ancients is supports job

[pk_thunder]

you do know that u wont be using ultimate from 600 range right?
and stacking ancients is supports job
you know u shouldn't pick archer if ur team doesn't have nuff stun/immobilize so u can't ult from 600...

not rly, they don't have to
sometimes they're helping distract the other team so ur carry can farm etc etc

[AhilE]

what do u take on very very long games (around 60 minutes) - I used to love FA before the huge nerfs but I playied her in 2 games yesterday and both times I feel lacking and useless after 45 minutes.

I simply get focused and die right away, also ganking after that point will not happen (u just roam in team back and forth - and gank forest if u get lucky)

so anyway, my damage seems to not do the job anymore and like i said she dies in 3 hits (or 1 stun and 2 hits :))


(usually the items I picked were Ghost Marchers/ SoulScream Ring/ Charged Hammer/ ShieldBraker / (and after that I`m on the way to Frostwolf but generally I don`t get to finish it)


so I stress again, the first 20-30 minutes FA is total ownage but after that it is just simply useless.

how the heck do u guys play her?

[Rean]

I simply get focused and die right away
and this is why


(usually the items I picked were Ghost Marchers/ SoulScream Ring/ Charged Hammer/ ShieldBraker
you get pure damage items that add 0 hp
get steamboots,frostburn,shrunken,geometers/wingbow and u wont die fast

[AhilE]

is frostburn still worth to take on FA ??
I mean it was nerfed so hard I kinda think there are better items for the price

am i wrong ?

thx

[Rean]

its still good

[pk_thunder]

its still good
key word

I'd say frostwolf is better now

frostburn only really works well on :scou:

[Shelok]

How do you disassemble frostburn to split into FW/Geo? Never done that, never needed to either. Interesting suggestion, mind explaining?

[Shelok]

Also, I think I agree with you on Thunderclaw now. Non-Em it really does ensnare your end game effectiveness. No need to drop gold on an item to spike your DPS for mid-game ganking. Skeletons can get last hits for you on ganks just fine, and a shieldbreaker would make them even more deadly.

[SHJordan]

How do you disassemble frostburn to split into FW/Geo? Never done that, never needed to either. Interesting suggestion, mind explaining?

Well... after u've made it. Just put it on the stash... left click... =] WELL DONE

[Sorreah]

Has anyone tested whether Splitshot damage dealt from secondary effects (like Feedback, Savage and Charged proc) is reduced? I believe it's not, meaning that an Archer with those 3 items would deal about the same damage to a team as she would deal to a single target.

Either way, I believe that after you get some quick damage (Nullfire level 1 or Thunderclaw) the best thing you can do is rush a Shrunken Head. You WILL be focused if you try to deal any damage in a battle since you're so squishy and magic immunity is the best way to avoid that aggro.

I'd make it a point that Ghost Marchers are the only valid choice for this character, that has to keep attacking to keep her skeletons hitting her target instead of animation cancelling. In fact, I believe it should be a part of your guide how you ferry your boots as soon as possible and get a quick kill after you have full charges on your skeletons, then you turn them into Ghost ones ASAP.

[SHJordan]

Feedback? New weapon? What do u mean dude?

[Dragnmn]

Feedback is the effect on Nullfire Blade, on DotA anyway. Not sure if it's still called like that on HoN (don't think so).

[Sorreah]

Feedback is the effect on Nullfire Blade, on DotA anyway. Not sure if it's still called like that on HoN (don't think so).


Yeah, sorry, I wasn't sure if the term carried over to HoN. I meant the damage dealt by the Mana Burn effect of the Nullfire Blade.

[SHJordan]

They are applied with the same ratio. but i think thunderclaw doesn't proc on the other 3 arrows... Am I right Rean?

[Weasel_Boy]

They are applied with the same ratio. but i think thunderclaw doesn't proc on the other 3 arrows... Am I right Rean?This is correct, thunderclaw only procs on the main arrow, not all 4. Getting split shot will not let you shoot out 4 bolts of lightning every attack.

[pk_thunder]

Has anyone tested whether Splitshot damage dealt from secondary effects (like Feedback, Savage and Charged proc) is reduced? I believe it's not, meaning that an Archer with those 3 items would deal about the same damage to a team as she would deal to a single target.

Either way, I believe that after you get some quick damage (Nullfire level 1 or Thunderclaw) the best thing you can do is rush a Shrunken Head. You WILL be focused if you try to deal any damage in a battle since you're so squishy and magic immunity is the best way to avoid that aggro.

I'd make it a point that Ghost Marchers are the only valid choice for this character, that has to keep attacking to keep her skeletons hitting her target instead of animation cancelling. In fact, I believe it should be a part of your guide how you ferry your boots as soon as possible and get a quick kill after you have full charges on your skeletons, then you turn them into Ghost ones ASAP.
no, it's not (like savage mace procs still do 100 physical dmg)



a fast shrunken after steamboots and frostburn/wolf is the way to go, especially with all the burst dmg the favored picks right now are (like :souls:/:pyro:). quick dmg items + ghost marchers is a recipe for disaster (I used to go steamboots -> frostburn -> charged hammer and it was still not nuff to keep me alive. FA is considered a squishy hero).



ghost marchers may offer an easy kill early but late game it does matter

steamboots does make a difference in lategame, they are much better than a +25 dmg and +12% movement speed cus they're just so versatile, need mana then turn it to int, need more hp then turn to str, need more carry potential then turn to agi. if ur doing it right it is well worth the advantage of ghost marchers

the main thing is the fact that +10 hp early game is pretty ridiculous at surviving. (u don't need ghost marchers to get a lvl 1 kill, turn steamboots to agi then u'll have nuff burst dmg to take down most of their hp with ur ground then just autoattack/ult)

[Shelok]

I've been trying to go soulscream + Power Supply + Steamboots THEN Shieldbreaker and it really is a ***** to farm that item. If I'm avoiding thunderclaw then what should my mid game item be after I finish boots? I seem to have a better game when i just thunderclaw after boots.. frustrating. I'm starting to think I should just stick with what works for me.

[pk_thunder]

I've been trying to go soulscream + Power Supply + Steamboots THEN Shieldbreaker and it really is a ***** to farm that item. If I'm avoiding thunderclaw then what should my mid game item be after I finish boots? I seem to have a better game when i just thunderclaw after boots.. frustrating. I'm starting to think I should just stick with what works for me.
u have to be able to get a lane and static farm it/gank/jungle

imho it's not super hard to get it but u should have it at like 25-30 min.

[Shelok]

Well, I'm at about 550 games played with FA since beta. Post release I'm 92% FA played and my KDR is 1.1. (0% EM). I'm not freggin satisfied. Somethings just off about what I'm doing and I wish I could get a handle on it.

Also, static farming? explain

[pk_thunder]

Well, I'm at about 550 games played with FA since beta. Post release I'm 92% FA played and my KDR is 1.1. (0% EM). I'm not freggin satisfied. Somethings just off about what I'm doing and I wish I could get a handle on it.

Also, static farming? explain
static farming is when u deny and last hit in a pattern so that they equalize and the creep wave clash position does not move.

it is best done when the creeps are on ur side of the map and you get tons of exp and gold from this.

[Rean]

just start denying your creeps as soon as they hit 50% health and ONLY lasthit enemy creeps
this way you will not push lane far away and it makes harder for enemies to gank you if u do this on your side of map or near tower for example

[pk_thunder]

just start denying your creeps as soon as they hit 50% health and ONLY lasthit enemy creeps
this way you will not push lane far away and it makes harder for enemies to gank you if u do this on your side of map or near tower for example
u don't always want it too back though, cus if it's in tower range it'll push the lane

[Rean]

if they come to tower you just kill the wave
simple as that

[LightofdaY]

Ok, nullfire blade? that's a wierd suggestion. I've been doing the ganker strat and it works. Especially when you've gotten thunderclaw & whispering helm. 3-5 minutes in the jungle you can do 3-4 camps and come out with hammer or money for savage mace later. I find whispering helm much cheaper then the puzzle box strat.

[Rean]

you can go jungling without whispering aswell. tp stones are cool
nullfire+charged+whispering = +0 survivability = glass cannon = bad

[Shelok]

I've noticed people have been paying attention to the fact that I'm 92% FA played and my KDR isn't horrible so I've been getting focused on A LOT more. I've been brainstorming how to change my item build to increase my survivability because like you said, FA really is a glasscannon if you go all out IAS gear (thunderclaw).


Usually I crown + 2 minor totems + recipe + runes 2x for side lane and finish my soulscream on the sideshop within 20 seconds of bell. Then I get marchers as soon as i have 500, and start building the rest of my power supply in my storage. Lastly, I finish steamboots and leave them on STR.

At this point I have to decide what type of game it's going to be, I usually start every game 3/0 ish by the time I finish steamboots, but by the end of the game lately I've been scoring 10-09ish and it's driving me crazy. I get focused on in every team fight.

SO THEN, is building firebrand for movement speed and IAS, then completing frostburn a bad idea for my main mid-game item after steamboots? Or should I really go balls-in and go straight for shieldbreaker? Frostburn would potentially be split into geo/frostwolf (frostwolf first).

Any advice how I can increase survivability would be appreciated, I get the kills but I have the deaths to match it. I want to get away from 1.1 KDR because I've been playing nothing but FA fora LONG time and have the skill with her to be deadly, I'm obviously doing something wrong more than how I farm.

[Rean]

:Steamboots: + 2x :SoulscreamRing: + :PowerSupply:

<look at enemy team>
lots of nukes? rush :ShrunkenHead: and then frostburn
anything else? go frostburn (icebrand if they have witch/pyro/deadwood/pebbles/fayde/any hero that can instagib you. firebrand otherwise) and :ShrunkenHead: after

<look at enemy team>
they have chronos or scout or predator or night hound or <any carry that can wipe you fast with blink/invis/whatever> -> :VoidTalisman:
they lack aoe damage? :GeometersBane: and :FrostwolfsSkull:
they have lots of aoe damage and geo is not viable? :Wingbow: or/and :SavageMace:


game should be over by now,gg you won

[Shelok]

2x Soulscream? After Port stone, that only leaves 2 slots...ack.

Also, your KDR with FA isn't any better than mine.. in fact it's worse and I'm taking advice from you?! ahhhh

[Rean]

2 slots is enough for:
mighty blade+hammer for shrunken
all parts of icebrand/firebrand
main part for icebrand/firebrand after you completed one

then you just sell 1 ring

[Shelok]

The extra ring makes that much of a difference? Also you sell it when? Once you've you completed whichever mid-main item you're building? Or when you're starting the item thereafter?

[Rean]

ofc it does not make that huge difference,but it costs only 500 gold and give you 57 hp,40 mana,0.84 armor,6 attack speed,6 damage
its good early game because its very cheap and effective

i sell it when the item in my stash is better than ring

[pk_thunder]

can wipe you fast with blink/invis/whatever> -> :VoidTalisman:

o.o

rather have a barbed armor if my team doesn't suck

void tally for pubs is kewl tho

[Rean]

barbed wont save you against leaping pred

[pk_thunder]

barbed wont save you against leaping pred
ur competent team should :D

[Shelok]

Think I give up at this game, I'm uninstalling. It's not my personal skill level or how I play FA. If you pull up my stats and watch any of my replays you'll see most of the time I lead the first 15 minutes with 5-7 kills and MAYBE one death.

It's my team!!!! So many effing idiots play this game, the real challenge is spending 20-40 minutes jumping from game to game until you find a well-balanced one. Every game I've joined recently my team is nothing but complete retards. Lately I've just been leaving because I'm not having fun anymore. I go from 7-0 to 10-12 by the end of the game due to feeding, selfish newbs. I ended up having 18 assists in one game as the rest of the team had maybe 7 tops.

People stat pad, more concerned about KDR than PSR. A witchslayer that hid from a full on team fight just to run in and ult a DS at 5% life that I was whaling on. This happens in EVERY game I join!!!

The last game I played before I said F this and quit, was me at 7-0 and a hag at 5-1 and the rest of the team was 0-5, 0-6, 0-9. So there's my last vent, uninstalling. Your suggestions helped opt my early and mid game performance further than I thought it could, and for that I'm greatful.

Bottom line is: If you want a decent KDR/PSR (or just a decent game in general), you have to be willing to spend A LOT of time viewing peoples stats, leaving/rejoining if the game is horribly imbalanced. I cannot host due to timewarner firewall issues, so I'm SOL. Peace, good luck.

[SHJordan]

Think I give up at this game, I'm uninstalling. It's not my personal skill level or how I play FA. If you pull up my stats and watch any of my replays you'll see most of the time I lead the first 15 minutes with 5-7 kills and MAYBE one death.

It's my team!!!! So many effing idiots play this game, the real challenge is spending 20-40 minutes jumping from game to game until you find a well-balanced one. Every game I've joined recently my team is nothing but complete retards. Lately I've just been leaving because I'm not having fun anymore. I go from 7-0 to 10-12 by the end of the game due to feeding, selfish newbs. I ended up having 18 assists in one game as the rest of the team had maybe 7 tops.

People stat pad, more concerned about KDR than PSR. A witchslayer that hid from a full on team fight just to run in and ult a DS at 5% life that I was whaling on. This happens in EVERY game I join!!!

The last game I played before I said F this and quit, was me at 7-0 and a hag at 5-1 and the rest of the team was 0-5, 0-6, 0-9. So there's my last vent, uninstalling. Your suggestions helped opt my early and mid game performance further than I thought it could, and for that I'm greatful.

Bottom line is: If you want a decent KDR/PSR (or just a decent game in general), you have to be willing to spend A LOT of time viewing peoples stats, leaving/rejoining if the game is horribly imbalanced. I cannot host due to timewarner firewall issues, so I'm SOL. Peace, good luck.

Hmm... that's sad... have u tried making friends? I mean... i got some asskicking friends... play with friends dude... this happens even in dota... you can't only blame lame players... You got to make a team, or even join a clan... you would get over this sooooooo fast.

@topic

Anyways... Rean, can :arma: counter :fors: ??? i've tried :arma: one game... and went pretty well againt her... tanking 5 ppl... why they always aim the tank?

[Rean]

carry armadon works amazing in pubs

[pk_thunder]

Hmm... that's sad... have u tried making friends? I mean... i got some asskicking friends... play with friends dude... this happens even in dota... you can't only blame lame players... You got to make a team, or even join a clan... you would get over this sooooooo fast.

@topic

Anyways... Rean, can :arma: counter :fors: ??? i've tried :arma: one game... and went pretty well againt her... tanking 5 ppl... why they always aim the tank?
huge HP pool + barbed armor + physical atks > hard carries

[MAAATE]

nice guide, however:

- skill order seems eh. pick ultimate @ level 9
- ultimate is actually really sh!t, dont say its good. its only good for sniping thru woods and pushing pretty much

- Whispering helm should be situational, yes it has its uses. BKB + Symbol of Rage + Charged hammer/Savage Mace <-- decent build, easy farm, usefull sometimes.

[pk_thunder]

nice guide, however:

- skill order seems eh. pick ultimate @ level 9
- ultimate is actually really sh!t, dont say its good. its only good for sniping thru woods and pushing pretty much

- Whispering helm should be situational, yes it has its uses. BKB + Symbol of Rage + Charged hammer/Savage Mace <-- decent build, easy farm, usefull sometimes.
ult is nice for a solo mid gank and pushing mid (skellies + archer + mid mia = tier 1 tower down)

BKB + SoR doesn't offer nuff dps early nuff, u're building a tank and it costs too much

[Rean]

single aoe stun+fa ult = double/triple kill on lvl 6
75 damage per arrow, its 600dmg with tempest/chronos/bubbles ult and 300 aoe dmg with just volley/stun
its stupid to skip it

[Shelok]

One of the funnest games I've had with FA is posted below, constructive criticism appreciated. Nullfire/Geo build - Shieldbreaker luxury.

Rean advises against "glass-cannon" builds, please tell me what build I should have gone at certain points in the game.

Thanks

23/6 - 56 min game.


Match Details for ID 3925078

[jay`t]

what i do is wayyy off course with this guide lol

i usually go phase -> whisper helm -> geo bane ->bkb -whatever (nullfire first if needed)

good damage and survivability cant go wrong with that

[Rean]

phase+whispering means whole early game you run around with 700hp
1 stun and you are done
its a matter of preferance maybe,but i wont recommend going glass cannon builds to not-so-pro players

[Shelok]

So... that 23/6 game was shortly followed by a 4/13 LOL. God i'm impatient

[pk_thunder]

what i do is wayyy off course with this guide lol

i usually go phase -> whisper helm -> geo bane ->bkb -whatever (nullfire first if needed)

good damage and survivability cant go wrong with that
well that's more of a ganker build cus of the phase, the guide suggests a hard carry build


One of the funnest games I've had with FA is posted below, constructive criticism appreciated. Nullfire/Geo build - Shieldbreaker luxury.

Rean advises against "glass-cannon" builds, please tell me what build I should have gone at certain points in the game.

Thanks

23/6 - 56 min game.


Match Details for ID 3925078

I seems like u won more cus of skill

their scout was HORRIBLE, I lol'd at his thunderclaw...

CD had bad farm, little items and gmarchers

u had 2 str heroes so u should have been fine and legion didn't output a lot of DPS

[McDuffs_Beer]

I saw a pro gamer in a competitive game get http://images.heroesofnewerth.ru/images/whispering.png

The main utility he got out of this was the ability to control neutrals.

He was constantly using his controlled creeps to farm the jungle for him whilst he had his FA elsewhere - a dominated creep lasts for the entire game until it is killed, so he would send one to the fountain if it got low.

I'm not entirely sure if it was worth it, but he certainly was getting alot of money, his GPM was soaring and he carried the game to victory.

[pk_thunder]

Hey Rean, u should but BKB on the ganker build to cus the ult is still channeling ~.~


I saw a pro gamer in a competitive game get http://images.heroesofnewerth.ru/images/whispering.png

The main utility he got out of this was the ability to control neutrals.

He was constantly using his controlled creeps to farm the jungle for him whilst he had his FA elsewhere - a dominated creep lasts for the entire game until it is killed, so he would send one to the fountain if it got low.

I'm not entirely sure if it was worth it, but he certainly was getting alot of money, his GPM was soaring and he carried the game to victory.
are you a pro player by any chance?

are we pro players by any chance?

sure we can all creep stack but most of us ofc will do it less effective (somehow) or just forget to do it because we're not pros

it's a nice item but the problem is lifesteal on archer is just bad, shieldbreaker is a much better asset to ur team. archer doesn't really need anything to help her farm either cus of her skellies and her not-so-good splitshot. if u wanna play a turtle strat try it with :chro: instead

[McDuffs_Beer]

Some good arguments for Frostwulf vs Frostburn

However, what you write about the extra 15% slow on frostwulf being counteracted by the extra 16% increased speed of frostburn isn't exactly correct

If the map were a straight line without any objects, and the game was only you vs one other person then what you say is completely correct

This is not the case. You haven't factored in how much the extra 15% slow on each target helps your entire team in fights - a slowed enemy benefits everyone; it can help your team mates to catch up or run away.

Secondly, because of obstacles and the layout of the map, even if you can run at the same relative speed with frostburn - the enemy will always get to points of safety quicker if you have frostburn, it just means you will get their quicker too. You can't chase indefinitely and in this sense a slow is more useful

Here is a 1v1 example: with frostburn you initiate a gank on someone who decides to flee. You slow him by 15% each attack, and due to your 16% increased move speed are easily able to keep up with him. However due to his large amount of hit points he is able to enter his base before dieing, and even though you could still keep chasing him it would be unwise to do so.

On the other hand: with frostwolf you initiate a gank, he decides to flee. You slow him by 30% each attack. With your loss of 16% move speed you are slower - but so is he as you are slowing him by an extra 15% so your relative speed stays roughly the same. It took you both an extra 5 seconds to enter his base and because of this you were able to kill him before he got to his point of safety.


And then you factor in how much the extra 15% slow also helps your team catch up to him, where they can cast their own abilities. Or an extra 15% on three fleeing targets which helps your team catch up to all three enemies.


In other words - the frostburn vs frostwolf debate cannot come down to "Frostwolf slows by 30% but frostburn gives 16% extra speed and thus cancels this out"

The extra slow, and the extra speed are both independent with different advantages. They cannot be measured on the same scale.

The extra slow helps your team more, and in a chase situation where their are points of safety the fleeing hero can reach both people being slower benefits the chaser more

The extra speed helps you to kite easier and escape easier but it doesnt make frostburn's slow just as good as the slow on frostwolf.

[McDuffs_Beer]

Hey Rean, u should but BKB on the ganker build to cus the ult is still channeling ~.~


are you a pro player by any chance?

are we pro players by any chance?

sure we can all creep stack but most of us ofc will do it less effective (somehow) or just forget to do it because we're not pros

it's a nice item but the problem is lifesteal on archer is just bad, shieldbreaker is a much better asset to ur team. archer doesn't really need anything to help her farm either cus of her skellies and her not-so-good splitshot. if u wanna play a turtle strat try it with :chro: instead

No Im not a pro player, what do you mean by that?

If you mean because we aren't pro players we shouldn't attempt the strategies they implement then I would disagree - with enough practice a relatively competent player would be able to use whispering helm just as effectively as any pro gamer.



Otherwise, the comment was just used to make a point incase it was overlooked. I then read all the other comments (20 pages is alot) and found others had argued this perspective on whispering helm before and you had been through this process.

And after reading them all I would probably agree with the concensus that whispering helm makes FA a bit too squishy, and that modifier doesnt help the team the most

[pk_thunder]

ur posts are big...

Some good arguments for Frostwulf vs Frostburn

...
FA is not support thus she should not support the team and rather get items that boost herself (unless if she is in a semi-carry role with a hard carry)


No Im not a pro player, what do you mean by that?

...
no, my point is just because pros do it doesn't mean we should, especially because of different situations that everyone is faced with during HoN (what, does every game have the same heroes/players in it?).
whispering helm is not just about the effectiveness of it, but it's also about the ORB.
a pro player might of gotten whispering helm because of many reasons, but lifesteal on archer is just bad.
archer doesn't need lifesteal, what she needs is a shrunken head, frostburn/wolf or shieldbreaker, and a savage mace to carry.
anyways, splitshot is a crap skill but with an orb it can be used to good effect.

[Rean]

gonna get rid of frostburn
updates will follow soon

[Spathi]

Rampage should be added to the list of feared enemies. FA is squishy, has no means of escape besides root, and a Rampage can get out of that with his ultimate. I don't play FA much, but as Rampage she's one of my favorite heroes to squish.

[Rean]

rampage can rape a lot of heroes 1v1 but since he is trash pick right now i think its not necessary D:

[sHoWTiMe]

I have one question concerning riftshards.

Can it proc on every arrow or not?

[Rean]

no,only main target
Guide to items proc by Norroar http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=48830

[Jigglyballs]

:D lol i was looking for a Forsaken archer guide and i remembered this one! :D
u guide i think is pretty nice props!

[Evil_Is_Back]

If u dont take call of the damned with archer u are a damn fool.

Also if u dont get frostwolf ur silly. period.

[pk_thunder]

If u dont take call of the damned with archer u are a damn fool.

Also if u dont get frostwolf ur silly. period.
1) I guess u can't read?

2) tbh frostwolf is situational cus the orb gives no dmg boost and the item itself doesn't give much dmg either. it is a solid choice if u need to be beefy and u have a hero that can clear creep waves in a blink (of an eye).

:magm::behe:

[Shelok]

Nice FA nerf today, effing gay. Reduce volley radius/remove ministun and add a crappy 30 max damage at lvl 4? STUPID

[pk_thunder]

also zeph doesn't have a stun anymore.

[Shelok]

I cried /ragequit HON /uninstall because they beat the effing hell out of my girlfriend the FA

[pk_thunder]

not that horrible of a nerf, tbh they did it with most other carries. now she just depends on the team to supply real cc

[Genrou]

FA is my favorite of all heroes but.. for some reason I always lose games playing as her. I typically average 130CK every 30mins, and usually I hold a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio by mid game but.. for some reason I always lose. Can someone give me any pointers as to why? I could post the replays, but I don't really want to consume your time too much I'm just looking for some simple advice.

I think my biggest issue is; knowing when to gank and when to farm. As a carry, I spend all the time I can farming and I come to help teammates mostly when the fights are near towers and if they aren't I generally assume by the time I run there from the closest tower the fight would be over thus slowing down my GPM. Any advice here?

[_dazE]

1) Always carry a homecoming stone
2) Pre-determine your preferred FA playstyle:
~If you have a reliable hard carry, (chronos, scout, etc) go for ganks more instead of farming more.
~If you do not have a reliable hard carry, look to farm for the majority of the time, but always carry a homecoming stone and be ready to help out whenever there is a team fight approaching.
3) Make sure you don't have retards on your team. That usually results in you losing. Check stats and talk to them a bit before the match starts to make sure there aren't any douchebags. ... This is kinda impossibe/extremely difficult to tell, but try your best ><

[Shelok]

FA is my favorite of all heroes but.. for some reason I always lose games playing as her. I typically average 130CK every 30mins, and usually I hold a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio by mid game but.. for some reason I always lose. Can someone give me any pointers as to why? I could post the replays, but I don't really want to consume your time too much I'm just looking for some simple advice.

I think my biggest issue is; knowing when to gank and when to farm. As a carry, I spend all the time I can farming and I come to help teammates mostly when the fights are near towers and if they aren't I generally assume by the time I run there from the closest tower the fight would be over thus slowing down my GPM. Any advice here?


:fors: Honestly, don't try to mimic this guide's items. FA is most deadly when she has a lead on levels because her ult can literally wipe an entire team if you acheive this.

If you try to gun for these gold-heavy items then you're basically chasing your tail unless the opposing team REALLY sucks. I honestly suggest going cookie-cutter... Phase or Steamboots (depending on your preference) and powersupply with ONE soulscream ring. Very dependable core.

Rean is VERY anti-thunderclaw for FA, which I totally disagree with. Thunderclaw is perfect for FA, not only for leveling faster via jungle, but ganking alone boosts your EXP extremely fast. I can't begin to tell you how many kills I've gotten from claw proc's, but it's enough to be a viable core item.

So far as Frostwulf or Frostburn, go frostburn and if anything split that into your wulf/geo combo late game (usually at this point the game is over anyways). Frostburn allows you to affordly build mini items that make a huge difference as you level. Having your Powersupply/Boots/SC Ring/ and Thunderclaw PLUS Firebrand is very nice around the 25ish minute mark. Increased move speed and more damage is perfect.

Note on the "glass cannon" concept, FA is NEVER going to be beefy enough to tank anything, so handicapping yourself with STR items to take more hits is a bad idea. Go for your damage and keep your distance, make yourself versitile and unpredictable - that gets kills and wins games. The more relaxed and comfortable you get with FA, the more fun you'll have and the more wins you'll get.

Take my advice or leave it, but it works for me. I'm 81% FA played about 300ish games post-release (was 91% but have been ARing). I go from about 1.2 - 1.4 KDR, so I'm doing something right. 0% EM btw. kthx bye bye :fors:

[Shelok]

One other thing, when building your Thunderclaw. Farm for the 1600 piece first, then get the gloves and recipe afterwards. A lot of time, by this point if you die you're set back and will be chasing that 1600 which just burns time. Secure it early and the rest will fall into place. Trust me, it makes a huge difference.

To win with FA you're basically in a race against the clock, acheive your core items including thunderclaw by around the 21 minute mark, and you're going to have a very high KDR that game (whether you win or lose).

[NoScrub]

FA is my favorite of all heroes but.. for some reason I always lose games playing as her. I typically average 130CK every 30mins, and usually I hold a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio by mid game but.. for some reason I always lose. Can someone give me any pointers as to why? I could post the replays, but I don't really want to consume your time too much I'm just looking for some simple advice.

I think my biggest issue is; knowing when to gank and when to farm. As a carry, I spend all the time I can farming and I come to help teammates mostly when the fights are near towers and if they aren't I generally assume by the time I run there from the closest tower the fight would be over thus slowing down my GPM. Any advice here?

I usually have a partner in all of my ganks and we pretty much share kills, unless he's a bad boy. Partner with a serious ganker/roamer like :vood::tund::dead::slit: etc.
You can use their skills and damage to get those ganks.
However in team fights its usually best you join the fray nearer the middle as you can swoop in, cripple and then use your ulti straight after to either KS or get more damage so other people can get the kills.

P.s. Too many times I see people not using their skeletons to their advantage! In the early lane phase use them as you get denies etc but when you start farming have them on toggle so you can bring them out when you need them most.

[Shelok]

I also recommend looking at the stats of some of the people that post here before you take their advice. Why take advice from someone that has worse stats than your own? ;o

[saucebrune]

I would like to know what is your items order. Lets say that we dont need shrunken, you go for frostburn, then? (Hard carry)

For my part i would go boots, frostburn, savage but then i wouldnt know if i should start disemble frostburn for geo and Frostskull or should id rush wingbow then disemble.

[pwn_U_fast]

I also recommend looking at the stats of some of the people that post here before you take their advice. Why take advice from someone that has worse stats than your own? ;o

a little OT but sometimes people with bad stats have good advise. most bad advise is pretty obvious, but sometimes people like me who lack skills to execute their advise properly in game like to share their knowledge.

[ObeseSheep]

I really think this guide needs to update its items.
:fors: is a carry and can't be played otherwise so I don't know why this guide would recommend other builds. Charged Hammer is bad. Don't get it. I really don't know why someone would say that :WhisperingHelm: is a bad pick on a carry. Really.... :SymbolOfRage: is just so ****ing good.

:Steamboots:/:EnhancedMarchers: :GeometersBane: :ShrunkenHead: Core
:SavageMace: :SymbolOfRage: :Wingbow: :Riftshards: :FrostwolfsSkull: Luxuries
:NullfireBlade: :Nullstone: situational

My 2 cents.

[pires]

I really think this guide needs to update it's items.
:fors: is a carry and can't be played otherwise so I don't know why this guide would recommend other builds. Charged Hammer is bad. Don't get it. I really don't know why someone would say that :WhisperingHelm: is a bad pick on a carry. Really.... SymbolOfRage is just so ****ing good.

:Steamboots:/:EnhancedMarchers: :GeometersBane: :ShrunkenHead: Core
:SavageMace: :SymbolOfRage: :Wingbow: :Riftshards: :FrostwolfsSkull: Luxuries
:NullfireBlade: :Nullstone: situational

My 2 cents.


I also recommend looking at the stats of some of the people that post here before you take their advice. Why take advice from someone that has worse stats than your own? ;o
My 2 cents

[ObeseSheep]

My 2 cents

Why take good advise from someone when you can just troll them for their stats? THAT SOUNDS GOOD
REASON < STATS RIGHT?

Fine go talk to people who have better stats and watch them call you an idiot for saying :ChargedHammer: is a good DPS item. Geez.

[Rean]

it really needs an update.
and there will be when i will get back into constant gaming in hon.
atm i just dont really know whats popular this days.

[Rean]

actually nvm,updated it to fit latest trends.

[potoBest]

FA is most deadly when she has a lead on levels because her ult can literally wipe an entire team if you acheive this.
this is probably the most untrue thing ever written in this forum

[ObeseSheep]

I've never been a fan of lifesteal on FA.

Ugh... IDK why you would say this on a guide. I don't like Harkons on Scout but I don't reject it. <.<

[ObeseSheep]

actually nvm,updated it to fit latest trends.

Why not update it to how she is to be played?...


I've never been a fan of lifesteal on FA.

Ugh... IDK why you would say this on a guide. I don't like Harkons on Scout but I don't reject it. <.< It is still a viable.

WTF i doubled my bad. Sorry.

[Rean]

um,just get my point.
this guide is for bads. bads suck big time. lifesteal costs 2k. it gives 0 survivability. it wont help them because their damage will be awful because of no farm.

i made this guide for newbies to suck less with her. thats why there are 9000 items in it that increase survivability.

good players dont need guides. and good player will get items accordingly and use his own brains. but for not-so-good players its better to stay away from lifesteal on FA



Why not update it to how she is to be played?...
um...she is pretty straight forward hero. Farm - use 2 skills - rightclick. No special strats or anything. I dont want to write how to play hon in general.

[ObeseSheep]

um,just get my point.
this guide is for bads. bads suck big time. lifesteal costs 2k. it gives 0 survivability. it wont help them because their damage will be awful because of no farm.

i made this guide for newbies to suck less with her. thats why there are 9000 items in it that increase survivability.

good players dont need guides. and good player will get items accordingly and use his own brains. but for not-so-good players its better to stay away from lifesteal on FA



um...she is pretty straight forward hero. Farm - use 2 skills - rightclick. No special strats or anything. I dont want to write how to play hon in general.

Why don't you write a guide that teachs them how to be good with the hero? I didn't say the game... Survivability items don't make bad players suck less.

Telling them AMAZING items like Symbol Of Rage (that gives the most survivability and farming power then any other luxury you suggested...) are bad is just... why is this in the premium section?...

Garbage... But what ever. A premium guide doesn't have to be good. It has to be nice. <.<

[Ifix]

honestly FA is pretty straightforward and extremely easy to get 400+ gpm with if you have a good lane/not a dominated game,enhanced marchers > power supply > geo > FWS (shrunken first incase it's a magic heavy team > savage mace > nullfire/heart/wingbow/riftshards are optionals.

[WangBacon]

:SymbolOfRage::ShrunkenHead::NullfireBlade::Savage Mace::BehemothsHeart:, and whatever boots you want.

'Nuff said.

[pwn_U_fast]

i tend to stay away from lifesteal on FA too. she can benefit from a lot of other items more.

[ObeseSheep]

i tend to stay away from lifesteal on FA too. she can benefit from a lot of other items more.

i know. :FrostwolfsSkull: is my favorite item on her but to ignore :WhisperingHelm: is stupid.

[Shelok]

this is probably the most untrue thing ever written in this forum


I've had 9 Annihilations with FA so far, thats not much considering how often I play her, but it wouldn't have been possible without her ULT.

Note: I said when she has a lead on levels (IE: In the next ult tier above her enemies) she is lethal. Her ult, if used correctly, can utterly destroy an entire team.

My best advice for FA is to use her how she's meant to be used, do not try to change her into some tank to avoid being a glass cannon. Keep your distance and play intelligently. The more wreckless you are, the more you'll feed. Once you start that downward spiral, the game is over.

So far as thunderclaw, per my style it is viable. Great farm and the ability to last hit heroes is enough for me. I can't stress enough how many kills I've gotten from TC Procs. Review some of my replays to see a decent cookie-cutter build that holds its own.

My latest Annihilation with FA: 17210361 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=17210361)

[K1tcher]

I normally do agi bracer power supply ghost marchers. First core item is geo i get firebrand. Then after if i have amazing farm i do shieldbreaker if they get stomped. Since i have enough hp from lvling stats instead of split fire.. And if they have many magic shrunken.

When i watch honcast the pros play, they do the same, they get geo or shrunken first depends on farm. gg and then just pump dmg, i would get frostwolfskull as my core dps item on fa.

[CAPSLOCKCPTN]

I also recommend looking at the stats of some of the people that post here before you take their advice. Why take advice from someone that has worse stats than your own? ;o
If you have better stats than someone, but still can't tell if their advice is good or not... can you really say that you're better than they are? No, you can't. Stats don't mean **** if you don't have the knowledge to go with it.

[Treatment]

split fire should be after stats IMO

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ Split fire is really situational, and highly depends on your build. If you get rush something like frostworths skull, there is no point in getting stats first. Get splitfire so when you attack, you can slow their ENTIRE team.

however, if you rush tclaw, then your survivability is really low, and you need the stats to live, and splitfire would just be waste anyway, because the damage isn't that great, and you aren't debuffing the enemy team.

[Tripod]

Why is frostburn rejected??

Make frostburn, split it up and make geos. Make FWS with left over icebrand. Seems so obvious.

[Rean]

because straight geo is way better.

[SilverStars]

I followed the guide and finally figured out how to do well with FA, I'd always failed with her before. (Not going to post replay because my deaths were all embarassing)

Don't your geo illusions die really easily to teamfight AoE? Or are you supposed to get it superfast and gank with it or something? Do you block with illus? If so can you animation cancel while blocking?

[Rean]

you get geo not just for illusions
1)even if they die fast u can still juke ppl with it by using it up ramp
2)you can scout with them
3)geo removes all debuffs on use which is useful against some1 like corrupted or any other painful debuff
4)it also disjoints on use making it possible to dodge pyro/witch ults and other spells with enough reaction.

[Vahn]

Pyro/witch ult's are un-disjointable, though it gives 0.1 second invulnerability which could block it.

[pwn_U_fast]

disjointing probably isnt the correct word. but im pretty sure you can avoid this ulties with proper geo use.

[fenrixx]

you get geo not just for illusions
1)even if they die fast u can still juke ppl with it by using it up ramp
2)you can scout with them
3)geo removes all debuffs on use which is useful against some1 like corrupted or any other painful debuff
4)it also disjoints on use making it possible to dodge pyro/witch ults and other spells with enough reaction.


This, it also helps pushing:)!

[Midnightoil]

Animation cancel trick:
Press Q,left click and fast-hit STOP hotkey (Default hotkey is S). When you do this,animation plays but skill itself doesnt trigger. You can annoy people with this trick since they wont know if its real or fake cast.

This dont work no more

[Rean]

Animation cancel trick:
Press Q,left click and fast-hit STOP hotkey (Default hotkey is S). When you do this,animation plays but skill itself doesnt trigger. You can annoy people with this trick since they wont know if its real or fake cast.

This dont work no more
no it does,go troll elsewhere

[bfbfbfbf]

frostburn times are not over as u stated. u get frostburn + shrunken if needed , then disassemble it to geo+frostwulf. u get to play with frostburn quite a large amount of time

[Ogre`]

:fors: Honestly, don't try to mimic this guide's items.

1541 psr, average 73ck's per game with one of the best farm heros ever, and you got her at 75%. Honestly, i wouldn't take advice from you.

[ElementUser]

Animation cancel trick:
Press Q,left click and fast-hit STOP hotkey (Default hotkey is S). When you do this,animation plays but skill itself doesnt trigger. You can annoy people with this trick since they wont know if its real or fake cast.

This dont work no more

Sound works but the arrows firing into the sky won't work unless you truly did reach the cast point.

[amOKchen]

wouldnt it be a good thing to build frostburn after core, splitting it up for frostwolf and geo later? dam, speed and hp.

[Khrrck]

wouldnt it be a good thing to build frostburn after core, splitting it up for frostwolf and geo later? dam, speed and hp.

I'd say you only want that route if your farm's too poor for a fast Geometers.

[Doom_Whale]

I seem to recall that crippling volley know has a mini stun again. Has this guide not been updated?

[ElementUser]

It doesn't have a ministun anymore.

[Church_]

Very good guide :D

[Dansken`]

what about :witc::elec::magm::hamm: ? why cant they be good Allies to FA?

[Rean]

you want me to add every single hero with a stun/disable?

[`Lucky``]

FA is one of my favorite heroes- although she doest have any real carry abilities(powerful passives) she makes it up with her range and amazing attack animation. i don't know why but it always seems i can get twice the amount of residual attacks by using animation canceling than compared to similar heroes. CD is a hero that is somewhat similar in this regard but lacks the massive range.

this guide is spot on. there were so many ways to build her, mace, tclaw, nullfire, etc etc but after some play testing

ghost marchers-> the little extra speed boost is great if you play aggressive and will let you net an additional 1-3 auto attacks with good animation canceling
geometers-> this is really core
frostwulf-> probably the best attack modifier for a ranged hero, shieldbreak gives much more dps and is a better choice if your team can provide snares and stuns.
wingbow-> dps/surviability vs other agi heroes
savage-> raw dps, negates wingbow evasion
riftshards-> final item so you do 1000 crits, games will never get to this point except in causal mode

perhaps the most stable and reliable build. Opting for shrunken before or after geometers is sometimes mandatory if the enemy focuses you with cc and nukes. nullstone if youre up with swiftblade,pyromancer,gauntlet,tundra, etc.

[Jezu]

post haste gives +105 ms
power supply costs 446
indent your body text pls
frostburn can be built and dissambled for geo+fws
add prices for all items?

thanks

[Webad]

Are chance higher for Chain Lightning if FA uses Split Fire?

[ScopeTCR]

Great build compared to some I've seen

thanks

[ConnieHo]

Are chance higher for Chain Lightning if FA uses Split Fire?

only procs on main target.

[Rean]

update coming soooooooon

[Jezu]

update coming soooooooon
If you could PM me with a link to this guide when it is up-to-date i would appreciate it (as I'm trying to keep my hero guide list updated) (:

[Rean]

sure

[Rean]

updated. love new split fire

[Hoteske]

With the new split fire, wouldn't you just leave it on all the time? Between farming creeps or teamfights, the only situation I'd see where you'd leave it off is when you DON'T want to push a lane or something.

[Jezu]

The starting item Duck Boots should be replaced with Guarding Ring, which later would become Ring of the Teacher.
It helps her to easily push lanes when the enemies aren't prepared; But also provides minor dmg (6), some mana regen to use volley more often, and armor for some survivability.
Also, I think you should max Volley & Skeles in the first 8 levels and get Ulti after that. Why? Because the level 1 ultimate deals crappy damage, and you most likely wont have mana to use it.

[Minervaz]

NICE :)

[Tuinkabouter]

I don't get why people whine over CotD. I'm even a fan of maxing it before volley against some heroes if I'm mid, since at level 7 you can push the tower in between creep waves if the enemy hero dies or leaves the lane, also pushing in the creepwave mid before rune time is important and this hero does that very effectively. And when you gank you generally enter a lane with heroes that also have disables and the skeletons will do more damage then your crippling volley will. Anyone who complains that the skeletons push the lane need to learn to use them well, against ranged heroes you keep them in your quiver until you enter a fight where you're gonna use your volley and if you do keep them out you just last hit creeps as if they weren't there and they don't push then. CotD makes FA one of the most dangerous laning heroes in the game, any hero that commits on her and can't finish her quickly with nukes will get turned around on. The skellies don't scale, but make her the hero with the most sustained physical damage output (easily 200 dps at lvl 7) until midgame.

[Shelok]

Wow... its like this guy watched some of my replays and revised his guide accordingly... I'm the most played FA % and this has always been my cookiecutter FA build... Reans original builds were very different ....before.... heh...

[xansone]

hi, i have a little question :P i would like to play as normal archer, like it was od dota, they only good alt avatar of FA, called forsaken archer is in the golld collection and not even possible to buy now, in hon there is no good looking archers, like ew or fa, is that possible to make him buyable later ? for silver coins ?

[man_guy]

You're SOL. They don't want your money.

[Acknowledge`]

thank