Which Abilities and Items Stack, 8/19/10

[Habile]

Well, I thought I'd throw together a small guide/FAQ on item and ability stacking, since I see quite a few pieces of incorrect information getting thrown around.

Be aware that there may be inconsistencies here, or perhaps some things may just be downright wrong. Most of this is from memory, though I never put something down if I'm not confident. Please, if you are aware of any errors, do speak up!

General feedback is greatly appreciated, too! Thank you. :)

Topics covered:

1. Exclusive Modifiers
2. Brutalizer and Bashing
3. Harkon's Blade
4. Deflection (Damage Block)
5. Criticals
6. Savage Mace and Halberd
7. Shared Cooldowns


1. Exclusive Modifiers:

Exclusive Modifiers work based on a "key" name, and any items or abilities that share keys do not stack.

Format: <key> (<item>, <ability>)
Items are listed in the order that they get overridden.

BehemothsHeartStrength (Behemoth's Heart)
BehemothsHeartAgility (Behemoth's Heart)
BehemothsHeartIntelligence (Behemoth's Heart)
hatchet_melee (Logger's Hatchet)
hatchet_ranged (Logger's Hatchet)
brutalizer_melee (Brutalizer)
brutalizer_ranged (Brutalizer)
great_sacrifice (Sacrificial Stone)
NomesWisdom (Nome's Wisdom)
chainlightningproc (Thunderclaw, Charged Hammer)
movespeed (Marchers, Steam Boots, Ghost Marchers, Plated Greaves, Post Haste)
speed_multiplier (Firebrand, Geometer's Bane, Frostburn)
manacombustion (Nullfire Blade, Mana Combustion)
ManaBattery (Mana Battery, Power Supply)
magic_armor (Mystic Vestments, Shaman's Headdress, Barrier Idol)
manaregen_aura (Ring of the Teacher, Abyssal Skull, Nome's Wisdom)
armor_aura (Ring of the Teacher, Nome's Wisdom, Abyssal Skull)

attack (Hungry Spirit, Whispering Helm, Elder Parasite, Symbol of Rage, Icebrand, Frostburn, Shieldbreaker, Frostwolf's Skull, Harkon's Blade, Volcanic Touch, Sear, Tangle Claw, Toxicity, Cripple)

The attack key is special, in that items and abilities in this category are not necessarily alike. Instead of the better effects automatically overriding the others, you may toggle through the effects via an icon that is normally displayed on the left side of the screen.

The effects contained by the attack key are often referred to as Attack Modifiers.

What does this mean?

Items within each of the following categories do not stack with each other if they are in the same category, but they do stack with other categories:

Attack
Chain Lightning
Mana Combustion
Movement Speed
Movement Speed Multipliers
Mana Battery
Magic Armor
Mana Regen Aura
Armor Aura


Attack:
It is possible to toggle through Exclusive Modifiers that you currently possess within this category. Only one will be active at a time.

Attack abilities will completely override attack modifiers when used. One way to think about it is if it's draining mana, then it's overriding the modifiers. E.g., Kraken's Splash will only override modifiers on the attack that does bonus damage.

Hungry Spirit
Whispering Helm
Elder Parasite
Symbol of Rage
Icebrand
Frostburn
Shieldbreaker
Frostwolf's Skull
Harkon's Blade[OFF]/[ON] - See 3. Harkon's Blade for further info.
Volcanic Touch (Magmus)
Sear (Accursed)
Tangle Claw (Wildsoul's Booboo)
Toxicity (Slither)
Cripple (Gauntlet)

--Attack Abilities--
Webbed Shot (Arachna)
Master's Incantation (Vindicator)
Splash (Kraken)
Chain Lightning:

Thunderclaw (20% for 150 damage)
Charged Hammer (20% for 200 damage)

Mana Combustion:
You do not use your most powerful Mana Burn. Magebane's Mana Combustion ALWAYS comes first. Furthermore, if you have multiple Nullfire Blades, they take precedence in your inventory from left to right, top to bottom.

Nullfire Blade (20, 36 burn)
Mana Combustion (16, 32, 48, 64 burn)

Movement Speed:
Stormspirit is not an Exclusive Modifier and has no stacking issues, including with itself.

Marchers (50 MS)
Steam Boots (60 MS)
Ghost Marchers (70 MS)
Plated Greaves (70 MS)
Post Haste (95 MS)

Movement Speed Multipliers:

Firebrand(10% MS)
Geometer's Bane (10% MS)
Frostburn (15% MS)

Mana Battery:
If you have both, then Mana Battery will not receive any charges. This is how it is Exclusive.

Mana Battery (10 charges)
Power Supply (15 charges)

Magic Armor:

Mystic Vestments (5 magic armor)
Shaman's Headdress (10 magic armor)
Barrier Idol (10 magic armor)

Mana Regen Aura:

Ring of the Teacher (0.65 manaregen aura)
Abyssal Skull (0.80 manaregen aura)
Nome's Wisdom (1.00 manaregen aura)

Armor Aura:

Ring of the Teacher (3 armor aura)
Nome's Wisdom (4 armor aura)
Abyssal Skull (5 armor aura)




2. Brutalizer and Bashing:

Brutalizer, as shown above, contains an Exclusive Modifier, and therefore does NOT stack with itself. This means that having multiple Brutalizers does not even improve your chance to bash in any way.

The bashing abilities do NOT contain Exclusive Modifiers. Therefore, they will work with Brutalizer in that they will increase the chance to bash.

However, all forms of bash use shared cooldowns. See 7. Shared Cooldowns for further details.

If 2+ bash sources process at the same time, then the Hero Skill bash source will take priority.

Savage Mace's mini-stun does not count as a bashing effect, and interferes in no way.



3. Harkon's Blade:

Unless otherwise noted, this section refers to Harkon's Blade[ON].

Harkon's Blade been changed to include the attack Exclusive Modifier. However, because of its toggled nature, this brings up some problems:

First and foremost, Harkon's Blade always counts as an Exclusive Modifer, toggled or not. For example, if you have lifesteal and Harkon's Blade[OFF], and you're currently set to use Harkon's Blade, then neither effect will take place. Secondly, Harkon's Blade will still drain mana even if it is not the active attack Exclusive Modifier.

Harkon's Blade gets overridden by both Arachna's Webbed Shot, and Vindicator's Master's Incantation. Single-casting or auto-casting with these skills will effectively disable Harkon's Blade for each and every attack you make, and Harkon's Blade will drain no extra mana.

Harkon's Blade does not work with Assassin's Shroud or Fayde's Reflection. Each attack counts as an item cast, and will therefore remove the stealth effect without applying the debuff from Reflection, or the bonus damage from Assassin's Shroud.

Harkon's Blade DOES work with both Forsaken Archer's Split Fire, and Moon Queen's Multi-Strike. In both cases each attack will only drain 75 mana, regardless of how many sub-attacks you make. Each attack gets converted to Magic damage.

Split Shot applies the debuff to every target.
Multi-Strike applies the debuff only to the main target. Each bounce will still do magic damage, however.

Because Harkon's Blade adds a projectile effect to attacks, Zepher's Windshield is capable of returning melee attacks while the attacker has Harkon's Blade active.

Harkon's Blade affects attack damage only. This includes damage from criticals, Backstab, and Righteous Strike (does not affect the splash).

Harkon's Blade does not affect bonus physical damage, such as from Savage Mace and Halberd.



4. Deflection (Damage Block):

Works with diminishing returns.

Each item works independently. When multiple sources of deflection process at the same time, then the one with the highest amount of deflection takes precedence.

For example, if you have a Plated Greaves buff, Helm of the Black Legion, and an Iron Shield on a MELEE hero, then you'll have the following chances to deflect:

100% chance -10 damage against all units. (Plated Greaves buff)
100% chance -20 damage against heroes. (Iron Shield)
60% chance -20 damage against all units. (Iron Shield)
70% chance -40 damage against all units. (Helm of the Black Legion)

Against heroes, you'll always block 20 damage, and have a 70% chance to block 40 damage.

When taking into account precedence (40 deflection overriding 20 deflection): 30% chance to block 20 damage, and 70% chance to block 40 damage.

Against other units, you'll always block 10 damage, have a 60% chance to block 20 damage, and 70% chance to block 40 damage.

And with precedence: 12% chance to block 10 damage, 18% chance to block 20 damage, and 70% chance to block 40 damage.

In either situation, the most you'll EVER block at once is the single highest amount of deflection that processes.

Deflection takes place before all other forms of armor.



5. Criticals:

Works with diminishing returns.

When multiple Criticals are made on the same attack, the source with the highest critical mulitplier takes precedence.

Criticals are capable of multiplying the damage from a couple of sources that don't directly affect your listed attack damage:

Righteous Strike (Jeraziah)
Backstab (Night Hound)
Pounce (Night Hound)
Assassin's Shroud



6. Savage Mace and Halberd:

Both work completely independently, with each other and themselves.

If you have six Savage Maces, it's possible for all six to process on the same attack, dealing 600 bonus physical damage total.

Each instance of damage is also separate. If Savage Mace and Halberd process on a single attack, you will deal your attack damage, 100 physical damage, and 40 physical damage all separately.

Against targets that require a certain number of hits, such as Arachna's Spiderling, Engineer's Steam Turret, Pharaoh's Wall of Mummies, and Demented Shaman's Arcane Hide, each instance of damage counts as a hit.



7. Shared Cooldowns:

When an ability or item is put on cooldown, other items and abilities that share its cooldown type are also put on cooldown for the same duration as the activated ability or item. E.g., activating Geometer's Bane will put ALL Geometer's Banes in your inventory on cooldown. Activating Post Haste (60 second cooldown) will put Homecoming Stone (65 second cooldown) on cooldown for 60 seconds.

Currently, the only activated items that do not have a type are the ones without cooldowns: Runes of the Blight, Healing Potion, Mana Potion, and the Monkey Courier. All other activated items typically have their own unique cooldown type.

There are a few cooldown types that are seen on multiple abilities and items. They are as follows along with their respective cooldowns:

bashing:
Curse of Ages does not apply charges while it is on cooldown. The application of charges will pause should Brutalizer process, and continue once the 2 seconds are over.
Brutalizer (2 seconds)
Gore (Pestilence) - (2 seconds)
Horned Strike (Rampage) - (1.5 seconds)
Curse of Ages (Chronos) - (1 seconds)
teleport:
Post Haste (60 seconds)
Homecoming Stone (65 seconds)
manabattery:
Mana Battery (17 seconds)
Power Supply (17 seconds)
shieldofthefive:
Shield of the Five (25 seconds)
Plated Greaves (30 seconds)
And just in case anyone wants it (or if I do in the future), a change log:

8/19/10, v0.2.2: Oh, right. Steam Turret is no more. Removed from Harkon's section.
8/19/10, v0.2.1: Extra probability details in Deflection. Added Attack Abilities to Attack Modifiers list.
6/02/10, v0.2.0: New section: Shared Cooldowns.
5/29/10, v0.1.10: Modified for Harkon's Blade changes. Added Windshield/Harkon's interaction.
4/22/10, v0.1.9: Added Reflection to Harkon's Blade info.
4/21/10, v0.1.8: Updated for Patch 0.3.4.1.
4/15/10, v0.1.7: Added some fine details into Critical Strike & Bashing.
12/30/09, v0.1.6: Added Shroud and Pounce to Critical info.
12/21/09, v0.1.5: Updated for version 0.1.62 item changes. Added manaregen_aura and armor_aura Exclusive Modifiers.
12/15/09, v0.1.4: Further formatting in Exclusive Modifiers. Hopefully more readable.
12/13/09, v0.1.3: Added Fenrir's Fang to the 'attack' Exclusive Modifiers, and added notes to the 'attack' category.
12/08/09, v0.1.2: Added damage info to Savage Mace and Halberd, updated Harkon's and Steam Turret info, and added info on Harkon's and what it affects.
11/28/09, v0.1.1: Edited formatting of the Exclusive Modifiers.
11/28/09, v0.1.0: Added new section: Brutalizer and Bashing.
11/28/09, v0.0.3: Fixed Enhanced Marchers --> Ghost Marchers.
11/28/09, v0.0.2: Added Steam Turret info to Harkon's Blade.

11/28/09, v0.0.1: First draft.

[Styles]

nice,
thanks for this

[ElementUser]

Going to add Bashes?

You forgot to mention that the movement speed of H&S do not stack with other Slashes or H&S's. Either way pretty well written, moving to Guides & Lists

[Habile]

Going to add Bashes?

You forgot to mention that the movement speed of H&S do not stack with other Slashes or H&S's. Either way pretty well written, moving to Guides & Lists

Ah, thank you very much.

I'll add bashes, as there are a few misconceptions abound.

The movement speed bonuses from HnS and Slash are listed under the Movement Speed Multipliers key in the Exclusive Modifiers section. Perhaps this section could use some improvement overall?

[ElementUser]

Oh I didn't see that at first lol. Yeah that section is perfectly fine.

I've edited a few spelling errors :P. Very well written article btw. Oh and added Damage Block in brackets next to Deflection because I don't hear that term used very often.

[Habile]

Oh I didn't see that at first lol. Yeah that section is perfectly fine.

I've edited a few spelling errors :P. Very well written article btw

*sigh* I guess I just like the archaic form of "therefore" more.

Heheh. Thanks ElementUser.

[DemonasGodz]

hackproc (HACK) lol.. xD

lazy to check..but you mean + magic def items don't stack? lol never knew that >_<
means 2 magic vesment wont give 10 marmour?

[Habile]

lol.. xD

lazy to check..but you mean + magic def items don't stack? lol never knew that >_<
means 2 magic vesment wont give 10 marmour?

Correct. Currently, I'm not aware of any magic armor items that are capable of stacking.

If you hover over your armor in your stats panel along the bottom of the screen, you'll see a tooltip which also shows you your magic armor.

[DemonasGodz]

what bout arachna hide + magic def?

[ElementUser]

Only Magic Armor from items do not stack with other Magic Armor that's given by other items in your inventory - it will stack with any other skill/exterior source (ie, Hardened Carapace).

[Qwernakus]

Are you saying that i cannot (fx.) use both Frostwolf's Skull and Shield Breaker?

[ElementUser]

Are you saying that i cannot (fx.) use both Frostwolf's Skull and Shield Breaker?

Yes (well not at the same time - you can toggle between them though).

[Ice_Phoenix]

vamp_melee (Abyssal Skull)


<modifier key="vamp_melee" condition="melee" modpriority="100">

[Drasha]

didn't mention boots they don't stack

[ElementUser]

didn't mention boots they don't stack


Marchers (50 MS)
Steam Boots (60 MS)
Ghost Marchers (70 MS)
Plated Greaves (70 MS)
Post Haste (95 MS)He mentioned them.

@Habile: How about a separate section for auras stacking? IIRC, Shield of the Five & Plated stack, but if you have both in your inventory they both get put on cooldown. Yeah I know most auras stack with different auras & don't stack with themselves, but perhaps it will be changed in the future.

[Drasha]

Marchers (50 MS)
Steam Boots (60 MS)
Ghost Marchers (70 MS)
Plated Greaves (70 MS)
Post Haste (95 MS)He mentioned them.

@Habile: How about a separate section for auras stacking? IIRC, Shield of the Five & Plated stack, but if you have both in your inventory they both get put on cooldown. Yeah I know most auras stack with different auras & don't stack with themselves, but perhaps it will be changed in the future.
So much information its hard to pick things out of it.

[ElementUser]

I missed the % movespeed the first time as well...oh well. The formatting is good as it is though

[Habile]

Marchers (50 MS)
Steam Boots (60 MS)
Ghost Marchers (70 MS)
Plated Greaves (70 MS)
Post Haste (95 MS)He mentioned them.

@Habile: How about a separate section for auras stacking? IIRC, Shield of the Five & Plated stack, but if you have both in your inventory they both get put on cooldown. Yeah I know most auras stack with different auras & don't stack with themselves, but perhaps it will be changed in the future.

I'll see what I can do for auras. They seem like they'll be a little tricky, because of the massive number, hidden auras (such as from Mana Battery based items, which don't stack), and aura-like items (Shield of the Five and Plated Greaves aren't actually auras, but AOE buffs).

Also, cleaned up the formatting. Hopefully the modifiers will be more readable.

[become_death]

Excellent guide. This should be Required Reading for all new players... and maybe some old players who still haven't figured it out yet. =)

Can we nominate this for a Premium Guide? It's well formatted and comprehensive.

[ElementUser]

It's not a strategy guide though lol

[Habile]

Excellent guide. This should be Required Reading for all new players... and maybe some old players who still haven't figured it out yet. =)

Can we nominate this for a Premium Guide? It's well formatted and comprehensive.

Heh, as much as I'd like to see more players understand how these things actually work, ElementUser is right. This just gets into the mechanics, and although much strategy could be extracted from this, it doesn't actually tell a player what's viable as far as strategies go.

[Opax]

but still, this deserves a premium guide more than most guides here.

[Integria]

Something you may wish to add to your extensive list, Habile, under the section including Jereziah and Night Hound for heroes that have their criticals increased by abilities.

The added 125 bonus damage from breaking Assasin's Shroud, while not actually showing as your current damage, does fully increase the amount you crit for (given that the breaking hit IS indeed a critical. :P).

[Habile]

Something you may wish to add to your extensive list, Habile, under the section including Jereziah and Night Hound for heroes that have their criticals increased by abilities.

The added 125 bonus damage from breaking Assasin's Shroud, while not actually showing as your current damage, does fully increase the amount you crit for (given that the breaking hit IS indeed a critical. :P).

Ahh, that's right, and Pounce as well. Thanks for that, Integria.

[Behbista]

Perhaps if it can't be a guide since it isn't a guide, incorporate it into a HoN manual.

Very good information, thank you for putting it together Habile

[Glull]

give the man a puzzlebox :P

[psyclog]

Daemonic Breast Plate?
http://honwiki.net/wiki/Daemonic_Breast_Plate

+5 Armor Aura

[Lucretius]

In the section about armor, could you include something about how the activated buffs from Astrolabe and Plated Greaves factor in?

- Are they subject to diminishing returns based on the amount of armor you already have?
- Do they conflict with one another or give you a flat stack of +4 when both activated?
- What is theoretical maximum one can stack armor through a combination of the various means? Wearing it, Aura, Activated Buffs?

[Habile]

Daemonic Breast Plate?
http://honwiki.net/wiki/Daemonic_Breast_Plate

+5 Armor Aura

Not an Exclusive Modifier, and as such it stacks with the other armor auras. Thank you for your input, though. There are probably things still out there that I've missed.


In the section about armor, could you include something about how the activated buffs from Astrolabe and Plated Greaves factor in?

- Are they subject to diminishing returns based on the amount of armor you already have?
- Do they conflict with one another or give you a flat stack of +4 when both activated?
- What is theoretical maximum one can stack armor through a combination of the various means? Wearing it, Aura, Activated Buffs?

Astrolabe and Plated Greaves appear to work completely independent from one another, i.e., no shared cooldowns, and the buffs stack.

Armor effectively increases your base health by 6% per point. If you have 1000 health, 10 armor will effectively increase that by 60%, so that it would take 1600 physical damage to kill you.

Therefore, armor does not suffer from diminishing returns. Even with 10,000 armor, a single point will still add 6% of your max health (the numbers you see in game) to your effective health (the actual amount of damage you can sustain).

Magic armor works the same way.

edit: Ah yes. I'll see what I can drag up as far as potential armor goes.
edit2:
199.88 Armor.

11.88 : Legionnaire
31.88 : Taunt, +20
121.88 : Frostfield Plate * 6, +90
126.88 : Daemonic Breastplate, +5
131.88 : Abyssal Skull, +5
133.88 : Astrolabe, +2
135.88 : Plated Greaves, +2
147.88 : Nature's Protection, +12
159.88 : Cursed Shield, +12
169.88 : Galvanize, +10
199.88 : Boosted Storm Cloud, +30

This excludes Jeraziah, who would boost that by 990 if you remove Hammerstorm from your team. This could probably be raised higher, as I can't imagine that I actually thought of every possibility for that. edit: There's probably a neutral creep that can give armor. Perhaps the Ogre Magi one, or whatever it's called.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Does anyone else feel that armor mechanics should be added to this guide? I'm not exactly sure if it's entirely relevant, but that's just personal opinion. Further input would be appreciated.

[ElementUser]

I think armor should be for a separate thread.

Oh also you forgot the Ice Ogre's Icy Cold Armor's armor buff :).

[Dekal]

Items within each of the following categories do not stack with each other:

Attack
Chain Lightning
Lifesteal
Mana Combustion
Movement Speed
Movement Speed Multipliers
Mana Battery
Magic Armor
Mana Regen Aura
Armor Aura


So I assume that getting whispering helm + frostburn on Magebane is theoretically retarded?

But, having JUST tested it in a game, it completely stacks. I have lifesteal, manaburn and the frostburn debuff is applied, too.

That's not supposed to go down like that, is it?

[ElementUser]

Oh it's a bit of an ambiguous wording issue. What he means is that modifiers of the same type do not stack with each other, but each type stacks with a different type.

I changed the wording a little bit to make it a bit clearer

[Dekal]

Oh it's a bit of an ambiguous wording issue. What he means is that modifiers of the same type do not stack with each other, but each type stacks with a different type.

I changed the wording a little bit
Hm. Guess it's a balancing issue then, which I won't get into because evidently people seem to think it's fair. :)

But ok, I think I can comprehend the list to its full then, thanks.

Though this is definitely the most drastic mechanic change from DotA, I reckon.

Edit: But it looks like, still with my newfound comprehension, that Nome's Wisdom 1+ mana regen and Ring of the Teacher's something+ mana regen auras shouldn't stack, but I've noticed that if one carries Nome's Wisdom and another one carries Ring of the Teacher, you get both auras, and should memory serve me correct it also did buff the mana regeneration (checked with mouse-over over manabar)

Was that a brain fart, then?

[Habile]

Hm. Guess it's a balancing issue then, which I won't get into because evidently people seem to think it's fair. :)

But ok, I think I can comprehend the list to its full then, thanks.

Though this is definitely the most drastic mechanic change from DotA, I reckon.

Edit: But it looks like, still with my newfound comprehension, that Nome's Wisdom 1+ mana regen and Ring of the Teacher's something+ mana regen auras shouldn't stack, but I've noticed that if one carries Nome's Wisdom and another one carries Ring of the Teacher, you get both auras, and should memory serve me correct it also did buff the mana regeneration (checked with mouse-over over manabar)

Was that a brain fart, then?

Hmm, from a technical standpoint, you should see both auras affecting you; there shouldn't actually be any change in your regen rate, however. Hah, I'm rather curious now, and feel like checking in game. I had tested the armor bonuses a while ago; it would certainly be odd (and probably considered a bug) if the mana regen stacked.

On a further note, this guide needs a little updating now. I'll need to add to the Harkon's section, and possibly incorporate parts of it into the modifiers section.

[ElementUser]

Habile, can you update this a bit? :)

From version 0.1.66:


- Attack abilities (Webbed Shot) and attack toggles (Harkon's Blade) now override attack modifiers (Frostwolf, etc)

[Habile]

Certainly! I've been a little busy as of late. I'll see what I can do before the weekend's over, though.

[GGreenBass]

Can you be more detailed on Forsaken Archer's split shot? I know that split shotting doesn't increase lightning proc chance HOWEVER it does apply the Frostbrand and Shieldbreaker effects. Idk what other effects it may have (brutilizer, etc) but if you could have these in your post that would be IMMENSELY useful so I don't buy the wrong items on her (assuming I want to try them out).

I'm going to try with some of the other ones, see how that works.

[ElementUser]

Split Fire is covered extensively in another thread here:

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=48830

[laserblade]

Do Savage Mace ministuns stack?

Like if all 6 proc, 0.6 seconds of stun?

And proc chances do diminishing returns?

[Habile]

Do Savage Mace ministuns stack?

Like if all 6 proc, 0.6 seconds of stun?

And proc chances do diminishing returns?

The procs are all independent, so yes, they're "diminishing" in a sense. Two will not give 30% chance, instead you have a 27.75% chance to proc.

72.25% for neither. (0.85 * 0.85)
2.25% for both. (0.15 * 0.15)
12.75% for one. (0.15 * 0.85)
12.75% for the other. (0.85 * 0.15)

27.75% for either. (1 - 0.85 * 0.85) <-- Subtract chance for neither from 100%.

In your case, 62.285% (1 - 0.85^6) chance to proc any of those six, and 0.0011% (0.15^6) chance to proc all of them.


Stuns do not stack. The stun with the most remaining time will override the others.

[gloinus]

Does abyssal skull stack with itself?

[ElementUser]

Does abyssal skull stack with itself?

No, because all of the benefits from Abyssal Skull are in the aura that it provides; in other words, Abyssal Skull does not have any other bonuses that apply to the wielder if the wielder has 2+ Abyssal Skulls.

Nome's Wisdom auras won't stack, but the direct bonuses to the wielder (+6 Strength, +6 Agility, +16 Intelligence, +10 Damage and +100% Mana Regeneration) will stack if the wielder has 2 or more of them.

[ElementUser]

Updated with minor info :)

[Gowerly]

You don't seem to have the Armour Aura from Demonic Breastplate on there. Is that exclusive, too?

[ElementUser]

You don't seem to have the Armour Aura from Demonic Breastplate on there. Is that exclusive, too?

It's exclusive and stacks with all other armor auras (of course it doesn't stack with itself).

There are no "modifier key="armor_aura" lines like you see in Ring of the Teacher/Nome's Wisdom/Abyssal Skull.

[Skyve]

Harkon's Blade also works on Engineer's Steam Turret so long as it was active on the Engineer when the Steam Turret was placed. In each three shot burst, only the first shot is affected by Harkon's Blade.

How does the manacost work with Steam Turret? Does each burst cost 100 additional mana for the turret?

[Eskiya]

What about the movementspeed you get from activating Elders Parasite?

[SilverStars]

What about the movementspeed you get from activating Elders Parasite?

Doesn't stack. You can't have two of the same effect running at the same time.

Also, can you update this with lifesteal now an attack modifier? (No more relaxing non-toggling Swiftblade T_T)

[PiXeL_NiNja]

Damage block?? lol, to normal ppl its called damage reduction. Been looking for a post like this for ages big up

[ElementUser]

Damage block?? lol, to normal ppl its called damage reduction. Been looking for a post like this for ages big up

It was known as Damage Block in DotA. Damage reduction is a general term for anything that somehow reduces damage.

Oh and Harkon's Blade costs 75 mana per attack this version, not 100.

Updated thread to 0.3.4.1

[ElementUser]

Updated (again)

Harkon's Blade has some fancy interactions...the most practical one being that it stacks with Lifesteal.

Great, now Puppet Master is still OP.

[Otolia]

Well, I came here to have the precious infos on item and modifiers, and I get what I needed. Thanks it was well written.

Nevertheless, I don't understand why Harkon's Blade doesn't stack with other attack modifiers such as Frostburn since it's not a attack modifiers in itself, plus it doesn't work with orb walking abilities if i understood the guide right. So can someone enlighten me ?

[ElementUser]

I recently updated the guide and I wrote that it doesn't stack with attack modifiers that apply any sort of debuff (or has a chance to do so) on the enemy target.

Which means it stacks with lifesteal.

[Kaiman]

Ok, at first it looks like you are saying that Lifesteal can stack with an Attack Modifier, because they are separate categories:


Items within each of the following categories do not stack with each other if they are in the same category, but they do stack with other categories:

Attack
Chain Lightning
Lifesteal
Mana Combustion
Movement Speed
Movement Speed Multipliers
Mana Battery
Magic Armor
Mana Regen Aura
Armor Aura

But right after that, you list Lifesteal as one of the elements within the attack category, which would mean it would not stack with other attack modifiers:


Attack:
It is possible to toggle through Exclusive Modifiers that you currently possess within this category. Only one will be active at a time.

Code:
Lifesteal (Hungry Spirit, Whispering Helm, Elder Parasite, Symbol of Rage)IcebrandFrostburnShieldbreakerFrostwolf's SkullVolcanic Touch (Magmus)Sear (Accursed)Tangle Claw (Wildsoul's Booboo)Toxicity (Slither)


So which is it? Will Frostburn and Elder Parasite work together, for example?

[ElementUser]

Oops, I forgot to remove that from the first part. Thanks.

It's the second one.

[Kaiman]

So what happens if I use those two (or any other two) together. There are a bunch of people contradicting each other on this. And they are totally different types of effects so I can't tell which would be the "more powerful"

[ElementUser]

Example:

If you're using Lifesteal and Frostburn modifiers, you'll actually get to choose which 1 can be used.

If you notice in-game, there are white-boxes above your minimap and 1 of them will be in colour while the rest will not be (provided you have more than 1 attack modifier on your hero). Pressing , or . will switch the active modifier.

However, the restriction is that only 1 attack modifier can be active at any given time.

[Kaiman]

Ah ... that's a really useful feature.

[Habile]

Oh wow, ElementUser, I like what you've done. I do apologize for my absence. Haven't exactly had much in the way of time for experimenting and checking out the code. In fact I still don't quite get what changed in the code for Harkon's.

Going to add one little tidbit about Fayde's ult and Harkon's. It effectively cancels her ult if it's toggled on and you attack from stealth. Would have been a cool item for her, considering her ult can do nearly 900 magic damage, and is based off her attacks; not to mention her other nukes too.

[Hybar]

Quick question- What happens if you have 2 sac stones, and you kill 1 hero (or they die within the radius)- do you get a charge on each stone, and is the +25 health + health/mana regen effectively doubled?
Would it also doubly decrease respawn time or is that an exclusive bonus?

I saw that 'great sacrifice' was mentioned in the list- I think that is the heal that procs upon the holder's death, so I can understand that being an exclusive modifier.

Thanks-

[Habile]

As far as I'm aware, the entirety of the item's special effects are exclusive. This includes the OnKilled for yourself, and the Aura that is applied to enemies that gives you charges when they die.

So the only benefit you'll gain from the second Sac Stone is from the base stats.

edit: Should be a quick addition to the list. I'll see if I can throw in some additional notes for items like Behemoth's Heart and Sacrificial Stone, for their non-stacking effects. I'm headed out now, so it will have to be later tonight.

[wads]

If you have six Savage Maces, it's possible for all six to process on the same attack, dealing 600 bonus physical damage total.

wait.. so if you get 6 savage maces on FA, EACH split shot arrow has a chance to deal 600 bonus damage on top of FA's regular damage?

[Habile]

wait.. so if you get 6 savage maces on FA, EACH split shot arrow has a chance to deal 600 bonus damage on top of FA's regular damage?

Ohh, interesting thought. I'm going to go try that out. Though the actual chance for all six to process would be very low. Like 0.184% chance per target.

edit: Yeah, most certainly works.

important edit: It would seem that they broke Split Shot again. Bonus damage on your main target remains unreduced.

[ElementUser]

Habile, Harkon's Blade no longer stacks with lifesteal now that they fixed it lol

Also, maybe add Cleave being able to stack additively to this list as well :D

[Habile]

Habile, Harkon's Blade no longer stacks with lifesteal now that they fixed it lol

Also, maybe add Cleave being able to stack additively to this list as well :D

Oh, why must they fix things? Updated.

Another section on items/effects that self-stack might be a nice idea. I can't think of too many things, though, and generally they're quite simple or get into completely different topics (like armor stacking and EHP).

Cleave became a little simpler since this last patch. I believe it's generally realized that cleave works with Dark Lady's charge, though before this, it also worked with Swiftblade in a few interesting ways: worked on ranged attacks, and would cleave toward their direction regardless of your facing. Throwing 3 runed axes, wingbow, savage mace, and symbol of rage on yourself was epic. You could take out 5 moon queens with 6 wingbows, each doing 600 damage a hit. Didn't even have to attack them yourself.

Heh, I'm beginning to wonder if the thread title is a little off, since this covers more on stacking issues/oddities, rather than what can actually stack.

[otarU]

Webbed Shot doesn't work with Lifesteal Modifiers ;/.

[Patchurii]

IIRC it does.

[Habile]

IIRC it does.

otarU is actually correct. Webbed Shot, along with Vindicator's Master's Incantation and Kraken's Splash, are what appear to be a different form of attack modifier.

They're labeled as Magic Attack type, and seem to function just as a regular attack modifier whenever triggered.

edit: Actually, after fiddling around with the code, it appears to be hard-coded into the 'attack' actiontype. Not sure if it would even be possible to disable it for a custom mod. *scratches chin*

[Dawnbringer]

quick question but doesnt savage mace do true damage as opposed to physical? and as for % movement speed, does that count for disciples/defilers % boosts? because i know disciples stacks with firebrand

[ElementUser]

Savage Mace deals physical damage.

It stacks linearly with CD's/Defiler's passive.

[Dawnbringer]

ah, ty, i thought it used to do true, but meh :confused:. Also, say you turned on harkons for darklady and used charging strikes, would it apply the debuff to all hit by charging strikes + you lose 75 mana for each target hit?

[Habile]

ah, ty, i thought it used to do true, but meh :confused:. Also, say you turned on harkons for darklady and used charging strikes, would it apply the debuff to all hit by charging strikes + you lose 75 mana for each target hit?

Spot on. Charging Strikes + Harkon's Blade is a very quick way to run out of mana.

[Dawnbringer]

Spot on. Charging Strikes + Harkon's Blade is a very quick way to run out of mana.
darn, and forsaken archer gets away with split shot debuffing so easily :mad: (not with harkons of course :P)

[Habile]

darn, and forsaken archer gets away with split shot debuffing so easily :mad: (not with harkons of course :P)

Harkon's does work with FA, however, and without any additional mana costs.

[Dawnbringer]

Harkon's does work with FA, however, and without any additional mana costs.
yeah, i mean that there are better items for FA then harkons. She is really useful for mass debuffing though but im wondering, how do the shots split? is it just the 3 closest to the original target/you or is it just random?

[AdolfSlither]

Any non morph items stack sir.

[otarU]

Habile when I said that Webbed Shot doesn't work with Lifesteal its because of this :

- Attack abilities (Webbed Shot) and attack toggles (Harkon's Blade) now override attack modifiers (Frostwolf, etc)

From version 0.1.66

Can you please add it to the guide? Cause it doesn't say anything about Webbed Shot ;/. Your guide is amazing thank you.

[Jumbles]

Against other units, you'll always block 10 damage, have a 60% chance to block 20 damage, and 70% chance to block 40.


This is not true for your example, should probably fix this. You would only have an 18% chance to block 20 damage, because 42% of attacks will be blocked by BOTH the 20 and the 40, with only the 40 taking effect.

[Habile]

This is not true for your example, should probably fix this. You would only have an 18% chance to block 20 damage, because 42% of attacks will be blocked by BOTH the 20 and the 40, with only the 40 taking effect.

I noted that the largest instance of deflection takes precedence when multiple sources get triggered simultaneously. So while either way is correct, yours may better describe the case. I believe I chose this way to avoid confusion for those that may not have a firm understanding of probability. I'll try working both in.

[Windburn]

Wow, glad I stumbled across this thread!

Has to be one of the most important item concepts in HoN and I imagine 75% of players are completely oblivious to it. Certainly as a new player, I have been guilty of item purchases in the past that I now know from this thread were completely negated. Who would have thought that Icebrand Slow and WH lifesteal were on the same modifier category?

Seems S2 have really gone out of their way to make the attack modifier concept as difficult to grasp as possible; particularly as some of the item choices seem completely arbitrary. Is there really no better way of implementing this, so it's at least remotely intuitive (can't see any way around it currently but to memorize that list)?

[Habile]

Glad this guide has been of use to you!

Memorization is definitely a large part of this game type in general, from items and heroes/abilities to game mechanics and maps (juke spots, paths, warding, etc.). As I'm sure you're becoming more familiar with the heroes, items will be much the same, though definitely a little more complex because of the number of choices available and how they interact.

As far as attack modifier items go, the Morph Attack section of the items shop covers them for the most part. Though, in my opinion, Nullfire Blade doesn't quite seem to fit in there. . .

[Sku1l]

Attack:
It is possible to toggle through Exclusive Modifiers that you currently possess within this category. Only one will be active at a time.

Attack abilities will completely override attack modifiers when used. One way to think about it is if it's draining mana, then it's overriding the modifiers. E.g., Kraken's Splash will only override modifiers on the attack that does bonus damage.


Should remove the kraken's splash example since it does not use mana anymore

[Connect]

Btw under 5: Criticals
Jera's passive is changed now. :) Good job though.

[trYggpAz]

Harkon's Blade does not work with Assassin's Shroud or Fayde's Reflection. Each attack counts as an item cast, and will therefore remove the stealth effect without applying the debuff from Reflection, or the bonus damage from Assassin's Shroud.
Was this really intended? Mainly the Assassin's Shroud part.

[Vahn]

They are both considered bugs, hopefully we'll see it fixed soon.

[Myzzrym]

Hum... What about the ministuns? Does Flint ministun fully stack with Savage Mace like Savage Maces stack with each other? Or does it stack diminishly like it used to do in DotA?

[Zelfana]

Hum... What about the ministuns? Does Flint ministun fully stack with Savage Mace like Savage Maces stack with each other? Or does it stack diminishly like it used to do in DotA?
They work independently, both can proc on same attack or only one or neither. In other words they fully 'stack'. In DotA they were based on the same spell so that they couldn't proc on the same attack (is this right, I'm not sure)

[Habile]

As far as I'm aware and so long as nothing has changed, yes, they fully stack.

On another note, this guide is a bit outdated. Such as with the recent question about Assassin's Shroud. I don't actually keep up to date much with the game much anymore, but I believe that was one of the recent changes/fixes.


They work independently, both can proc on same attack or only one or neither. In other words they fully 'stack'. In DotA they were based on the same spell so that they couldn't proc on the same attack (is this right, I'm not sure)

I believe most things couldn't proc on the same hit. There were buff placers, and there were processed effects. Crits, bashes, and effects like maim couldn't occur simultaneously, if I recall correctly.

[En1337ened]

Can't test at the moment, but I'm curious about a couple things:

1. Multiple Power Supplies? I see that Power Supply takes precedence over Mana Battery, but do multiple Power Supplies work the same way as multiple Grave Lockets?

2. Would Grave Locket also fall into the category as Sac Stone, as they are both nearby death related?

[BoyOfPain]

I think it need an update