Moon Queen (Bounce attack)

[HonStinks]

Are there any plans to tone down this skill since you can put every modifier on Moon Queen and it will work on on every hit made with the bouncing projectiles as well as the main projectile?

I'm not certain if you get lifesteal from the bounces, it does make the effect but it's hard to tell but I'm going to assume that it does work, manaburn worked, and so did frost/slow, and since they all work together at the same time it becomes pretty ridiculous (Had lifesteal, manaburn and frost and it all worked no problem).

The biggest problem might not be the stacking modifiers but rather that the bounce has too much range and the damage doesn't drop fast enough. You can attack 4 buildings that are far apart because the bounces go so far, essentially you will be destroying one entire lane at the same time. I almost killed a pollywog priest standing near their fountain while I was shooting one of the raxes because the bounces reached him, and the damage still held enough potential to actually kill a hero.

It's not like the hero wouldn't have enough strenghts with a lesser bounce range or a bigger damage falloff, you start with 320 movespeed iirc, your damage gets buffed nicely enough without items thanks to the aura and then you have that ridiculous 1000 range ministun nuke + the 1v1 / 2v1 effortless victory ult.

Only weakness is low maximum health and poor STR gain, easily remedied with the overall farming and jungling potential.


Bottomline:

<> 35% falloff per bounce doesn't seem to be enough in practice, although it sounds good on paper, something like 45% or more is more reasonable.

<> The bounce range that the projectiles use to scout the next victim is way too big, you can cut that with almost half

[Tr1cKSt3R]

Nah.
Last game i was getting 1 hit by a pyro with staff of the master.
Even though i had satanic/bfly/str treads/wband.
i had to get bkb and bd to win cuz it was 4v3.
even when i did get bkb, i still only had 2.4k health.

that's ridiculously low for having bkb/str treads/satanic

[HonStinks]

The thing is Moon Queen has so good faming potential you can get any items you want considerably easier than with anyone else in the current hero roster.

Lothars is pretty cheap and gives a good amount of survivability, leaving you in less of a need for STR items (the expensive, more exotic variety, like heart or satanic).

Giving her smaller range on the bounces doesn't change her farming capacity really, just makes the hero less ridiculous.

While laning against her it seems that the glaives always come through the creeps at you, no matter how far you are, and the damage is still noticeable eventhough it has supposedly gone through 3x 35% reduction on the way.

While playing with her it's just so easy to get gold and exp on a lane while keeping the enemies harassed at the same time. The healthpool is low, but you are in very little danger when your attack bounces 400 kilometers around the map, leaving you near your tower and/or distanced from enemy heroes.

[Tr1cKSt3R]

Lothars is a waste of an item slot.
I stopped reading when i saw that.
I no longer respect you.

[sockety]

The only thing I see wrong with Moon Queen is her bounce attack bounces WAYYYYYYY too far sometimes, you can be in the bottom half of the legion base and hit one of those huts and it will bounce hit all the way to the two towers guarding the world tree.

[Juular]

The only problem with the glaive bounce is the range. I was killing heroes in their pool while attacking the world tree.

[Rocky_Felix]

Imagine chain lightning with this

[Karmashock]

The only thing I see wrong with Moon Queen is her bounce attack bounces WAYYYYYYY too far sometimes, you can be in the bottom half of the legion base and hit one of those huts and it will bounce hit all the way to the two towers guarding the world tree.
I had it going around someone's base once... I mean the whole base...it would bounce off one building and then finally stop on a tower on the other side... it was pretty funny.

[Elmy]

I had it going around someone's base once... I mean the whole base...it would bounce off one building and then finally stop on a tower on the other side... it was pretty funny.

...

It can only bounce 4 times at most iirc.

[HonStinks]

Also it seems that sometimes the glaives bounce back at a target they already hit, is this intentional or a glitch?

[Kudryavka]

Lothars is a waste of an item slot.
I stopped reading when i saw that.
I no longer respect you.
Lothar's works nicely on Moon Queen from my experience. It makes it really easy to find heroes on their own or position yourself so the creeps aren't within range, giving you easy kills with her ulti.

[Lethe]

Lothars is a waste of an item slot.
I stopped reading when i saw that.
I no longer respect you.

I distinctly remember Azen getting lothars on luna once.
Even in IDEC lothars is sometimes gotten, especially on troll.

Open your mind mb. It is an alternative. You shouldn't even be talking when you go bfly satanic over bkb.

[twincannon]

Lothar's works nicely on Moon Queen from my experience. It makes it really easy to find heroes on their own or position yourself so the creeps aren't within range, giving you easy kills with her ulti.

This. And the reply afterwards. Satanic? lol

[Lywrek]

The only thing I see wrong with Moon Queen is her bounce attack bounces WAYYYYYYY too far sometimes, you can be in the bottom half of the legion base and hit one of those huts and it will bounce hit all the way to the two towers guarding the world tree.

This. I have been hit from so far away. Pretty sure her bounce has more range than a tower. Like if creep waves are fighting, just beyond the range of a tower, her glaive will still bounce to the tower, and even to you if you are behind it. It is pretty insane.

[Decoy]

It could be that the glaive is following the hero like with arrow. As for the range from building it could be using the detect range to other units not from the center of the building but the outer most edge.

Also i tried using chain lightening item with the bounce and i don't think it works. someone please confirm if it does or not.

[Tyrando]

...

It can only bounce 4 times at most iirc.

1 Initial hit, 4 bounces total of 5 attacks.

Mjollinor clone, 20% chance of chain lightning on hit.

Ill let you do the rest.

[Decoy]

mjollinor doesn't work it only chances on the first unit

[FiNGERS]

Also it seems that sometimes the glaives bounce back at a target they already hit, is this intentional or a glitch?

Glitch. This happened in DotA when you attacked faster than it took for your previous attack to finish bouncing. I believe they 'fixed' this in HoN.

[Karmashock]

...

It can only bounce 4 times at most iirc.
I didn't say otherwise...

[Xitras]

No reason to nerf her, she is fine at her current state.

[Elmy]

I didn't say otherwise...

Find it hard to believe that it bounced from one side of the base to the other in 4 bounces.

[Serendipity1]

I totally agree that the bounce range should be decreased.
Maybe to the same range her own attacks have, that would be reasonable.

[Mizarus]

Mkb on her is extremly op right now, iam not sure about this , but it seems that when mkb procs on the first hit it also procs on ALL folowing bounces, resulting in all bounces dealing +100dmge.

also just by having the chance of all bounce procing mkb makes her farming ability even bigger then already is, after she farms mkb she can farm any item in game with ease.

[_Archangel_]

Nah.
Last game i was getting 1 hit by a pyro with staff of the master.
Even though i had satanic/bfly/str treads/wband.
i had to get bkb and bd to win cuz it was 4v3.
even when i did get bkb, i still only had 2.4k health.

that's ridiculously low for having bkb/str treads/satanic

Umm. You didn't buy enough HP. Satanic and Strength Treads < Pyro's combo

Try getting Treads, HotD and then BKB.

Actually I would rather get Desolator (Shield Breaker) on her now that it works with her Glaives in HoN

[Decoy]

i have been playing with moon queen a few games today and i have been getting weird results with orb effects today. I couldn't get shield breaker to work on red dragon creeps. I had level 4 mult-strike and while the attack bounced only the first imp i attacked got the debuff. then i attacked a catapult and the debuff worked on the catapult and second unit which was also catapult.
i also tried out the frostwolf skull and that one also had weird results. I attacked one imp and it only debuffed that one imp while the attack still bounced and did damage.then I went to fight 2 mino creeps and the debuff worked on both.

so in conclusion i think orb effects are buggy with moon queen right now.
can other people check to see if debuffs are being applied to all units the glaive bounces on please because its not a good idea to consider re-balancing a unit which is bugged

[Karmashock]

Find it hard to believe that it bounced from one side of the base to the other in 4 bounces.
From one tower to another... it happened. I saw it... it was remarked upon... we all loled...;)

[FiNGERS]

Mkb(Savage Mace) on her is extremly op right now, iam not sure about this , but it seems that when mkb(Savage Mace) procs on the first hit it also procs on ALL folowing bounces, resulting in all bounces dealing +100dmge.

Can anyone confirm this? I'll be sure to check it out.

[HonStinks]

I could confirm this but alas, before the hero selection screen is in place Moon Queen has already been picked, and before her people have picked Scout, Zeus, Pyromancer and Madman before the lobby countdown has finished. So if you want to confirm this you need to play RD or SD or Random and hope you get lucky.

[edxs]

Mkb on her is extremly op right now, iam not sure about this , but it seems that when mkb procs on the first hit it also procs on ALL folowing bounces, resulting in all bounces dealing +100dmge.

also just by having the chance of all bounce procing mkb makes her farming ability even bigger then already is, after she farms mkb she can farm any item in game with ease.

It appears that savage mace gets a chance to proc on every hit, and the extra damage and stun is applied to the target on which the proc occured.

I didn't get a chance to test this on other items though, the Legion creep dominated Hellbourne in 37 minutes with zero help from me.

[Glorify1]

I enjoyed your formatting, it allowed me to get straight to the point you were trying to get across without hurting my eyes at all.

I do not however like your ideas, they're pointless. There is no need to nerf bad heroes, and let's face it, Luna is a substandard carry.

Her bounces, a bad form of increasing DPS, does nothing early game other than push your lane, and does very little late game other than to aid in pushing/farming.

The range on the bounces is fine, they are after all weak bounces that do very little damage, and aren't really causing a problem.

[hackman5000]

Did some testing after reading this thread, and as many others said, yes, her bounce range is fairly ridiculous compared to dota. I didn't test slow and manaburn as a previous post said they had tried it.

Thunderclaw - Can proc lighting on any bounce, and will shoot lighting at the target it proc'ed on. It took awhile to get this to proc off a bounce, so I'm not sure if you can proc it twice in one attack on multiple targets. Judging from other proc items being able to multiproc, I would assume this one can too.

Savage Mace - Can proc ministun + dmg on any bounce. Each hit has an individual chance, and minstunning the first target doesn't automatically apply the proc to all the rest.

Shieldbreaker - Does NOT apply orb to all targets hit.

Flayer - Tested this one for quite some time, and was unable to get a crit on a bounced attack. Only primary targets could be crit, and even then it would not bounce the crit dmg over.

Hack and Slash - Each bounce CAN proc the slow debuff on any target in the chain.

Brutalizer - Can proc of any bounce. If any hit proc's, it takes the cooldown of the item, but subsequent bounces can still proc even while the cooldown is in effect, just not new attacks.

Whispering Helm - As far as I could tell, this shows a leech animation for all targets hit, but does not actually leech life from each target. Due to armor, armor type, dmg reduction from bounces, it was tough to calculate how much hp i should be getting back each shot. It seemed that with ~200 dmg I would get ~20hp from hitting a pack of creeps if the primary target had 0 armor (IE: life leech doesn't proc off each bounce).


It is nice you have some more options on this hero in this game, whereas most of these items in dota would break your attack or disable the bounce on the proc'ed attack. Most of these items, even though they can proc on any bounce, aren't really worth it. The chances are so low that you barely see any effect. I had to run around lanes and neuts for about 5-10 minutes for each proc item to get each one to proc on a bounce.

The only exception is the Savage Mace. The proc rate is fairly high, the dmg bonus from the proc is good, and the stats on the item are in line with what this hero might build. Personally I'd say Savage Mace is the only item of these worth using on her.

Either way I believe her bounce range is too long, almost double her normal attack range. Lower that a bit and the dmg reduction already set in place should be fine. It's just kind of lame getting hit at the back of the creepline from a bounce. You can already tell what kind of thread will get made if someone gets a Hack and Slash slow on them from 1000 range away via bounce.

[S2Shade]

I completely agree bouncing glaives are too powerful. Their range is HUGE. Two hits can kill multiple units.

[Juular]

Imagine chain lightning with this

I get Thunderclaw in almost every game as MQ. It's awesome.

However, the only problem with the glaive is its range. I was standing at a hellbourne base tower and I accidentally hit an almost-dead hero and got a kill (it was a KS). I had my teammate raging at me. I was sad.

[Mizarus]

It appears that savage mace gets a chance to proc on every hit, and the extra damage and stun is applied to the target on which the proc occured.

I didn't get a chance to test this on other items though, the Legion creep dominated Hellbourne in 37 minutes with zero help from me.

yes i tested it myself and it can proc on every bounce, and the proc rate is incredibly high on her, after i had mkb, i was unstopbble, even if i died, most of the time i would have money for buyng my respawn.

[Paragon]

If Moon Queen has been able to farm enough to build the items you're talking about, probably the other team did a poor job of stopping her. She's extremely fragile throughout early and midgame, and though her ult is devastating in the right circumstances it only takes one stun and two heroes to kill her before she casts it (assuming for the sake of argument that you're not engaging her with a creep wave, in which case her ult is near-pointless).

She is a very poor last hitter for most of the game. If she takes Glaives early she's pushing the creep wave for no real purpose and unlikely to be getting more kills anyway. She is only a real threat if she gets farmed to hell, but that's true of almost all carries. Compared to, say, Madman, Moon Queen is a very subpar carry hero right now. I don't think she needs a nerf.

That said, the bounce range on Glaives is a bit silly. I would be in favor of slightly increasing her base damage to improve her last-hitting ability a bit and then nerfing the range appropriately.

[xahxah]

I enjoyed your formatting, it allowed me to get straight to the point you were trying to get across without hurting my eyes at all.

I do not however like your ideas, they're pointless. There is no need to nerf bad heroes, and let's face it, Luna is a substandard carry.

Her bounces, a bad form of increasing DPS, does nothing early game other than push your lane, and does very little late game other than to aid in pushing/farming.

The range on the bounces is fine, they are after all weak bounces that do very little damage, and aren't really causing a problem.



Luna was used for the sole purpose of rushing Manta and buttraping raxes. She does need a slight nerf on the range of her glaives. From what I can see, she can hit tower and both raxes on the side lanes.

[Invoker1]

i just lol'd at the idea of bashes proccing off bounces.
moon permabashing the whole enemy team would be hilarious.
without the saddening 2 second cooldown of course.

[zaery]

I haven't played DotA for a long time, but maybe they got the bounce range mixed up with the attack range? It seems to me that the bounce range should be shorter than the regular attack range, but it's much longer. Also, the regular range seems way too short for a 'ranged' hero.

But, then again, i never played DotA much, and it's been a really long time.

[Hoenhime]

Also it seems that sometimes the glaives bounce back at a target they already hit, is this intentional or a glitch?

no it does not...what you are seeing is hitting a middle creep goint to the top creep then the bottom

[Jerry]

Nah.
Last game i was getting 1 hit by a pyro with staff of the master.
Even though i had satanic/bfly/str treads/wband.


No you didn't.

What goes on in the heads of people that make this stuff up?

[HonStinks]

I'm going to bump this topic because after coming out of a few games with Moon Queen it's just really obvious how stupid the range on the bounce is. It's like 3 times as long as the attack range on the hero, so what is the idea here?

The range is 500, at least, and iirc her normal range is closer to 300. So I dunno, maybe reduce the range on those things since they are pretty ridiculous at this point in time.

[Ravager]

i agree on cut the range with a half, its too long, even if u stay at 500 range, u still get it, and its annoying

[Minimality]

Glavies have a huge range but otherwise they are completely fine..(except that orb stacking..haven't tried it so I'll have to trust you on this..That should be fixed as well..that means mjollnir/maelstorm(don't know what they are called in HoN yet, sorry) can proc on each bounce the glavie hits).