Chronos

[ObeseSheep]

i think i am going to start building enhanced marchers over steam boots on chronos, the higher mobility and more damage is very helpful, also i find myself in moments where i have to maneuver through units while in my ult to try to get to a target after i killed my first one, enhanced marchers would make this far easier.

Time leap solves all your problems. Steam are 409835 times better. +35 atk speed and +10 dmg is better then +24 dmg on a hero with a counter based bash.

[pwn_U_fast]

That's fine by me but if your not willing to justify it, then don't call someone else out for spending all their time playing hon

I already told you, i don't go out much so i play a lot of hon. and i repeated. A LOT. My justification is because i choose to spend a one time fee of $30 and play a game for free as opposed to consecutively spending money on other recreational activities. I'm a cheap bastard, and I don't know a lot of people in the city i live in, so it leads to me playing a lot of hon.


Anyways, now that the trolls have been dealt with I'll be alternating between playing Chronos and Starcraft II over the weekend and hopefully will be good to update then .
Oh and pwn_u_fast if your so good, why don't you stomp your way out of 1151 psr <_<. It's easy enough....

I already told you I never said I was 'pro' or even 'good'. I said I'm a relatively good player when i try, this usually equates to my clan games, and select pub games. When my psr starts tanking during solo pubing, i usually try and redeem myself before i end the night. this can have some bad consequences, because the lower your psr gets, the worse your teammates get - and generally the dumber at game concepts. noobs start to pick 3-4 agi hard carries on a team, auto attack your lane, and support characters rape creep kills instead of focusing on denies - virtually slaughtering any chance of winning. if my team starts out bad - say an 0-6, i already stated - i lose interest and perform poorly. so no its not easy for ME to get my psr out of the hole, because once its bad, it tends to sit there for a while.

for me, its hard for me to play with people less than 1200. granted im not pro or even good at the game, but my knowledge and experience make up for what i lack in skill. people who are just plain dumb frustrate me and make me lose interest, sa ive stated before. if you watch my replies, i can usually maintain good map control and pushing capabilities, and don't do extremely poor in the laning phase. anyway just thought i'd respond since you guys seemed to take so much interest in attacking me for my low psr.
if you didn't notice there was some slight improvement yesterday - up to 1217.


Never build runed axe . Ever .

as i said - agreed. no explanation necessary. its the ONLY item build for cronos. maybe a shrunken head if your opposing team has an instagib. and i guess id probably go steamboots over enhanced marchers. the ep gives you ms when you really need it.


The more you try to prove yourself online, the more pathetic you look.
the more you attack me the more immature you look. i dont care of your opinion of me, but everyone seems so fond of attacking me, i figured i'd at least defend my rep a little. and i'm not trying to 'prove' anything about myself. ive said it a million times, idc about any of you personally you could die tomorrow and i would never know or feel remorse. i dont even know you, thus your opinion of my playing ability or how i manage my life means nothing. think what you want, after this post i won't refute any more comments.

all i wanted to say from the beginning is RA shouldn't be bough on cronos. its a bad item, that's all. i said he should remove it from the guide or i would lose respect for him. that means i have some for him now, because i think he's smart, but if he doesn't take the ra out of this guide, i probably won't take his opinion seriously - because it's really bad on cronos.


I'll tell u why . Because chronos is useless all the while he is doing it . Runed axe is not viable no matter how quickly u farm it . Its just not worth the price and time .
Runed axe + boots more or less = ghost marchers + ep .

U cant assist your team at ALL or get kills , but in the second case u pretty much dominate your lane get early kills ,and farm up savage mace very fast .

For runed axe to work u NEED Ep , and so that u dont suck and sit in forest and get ganked u NEED boots . It just doesnt work that way . Your average game will be over by that time . And u will lose . As it was 4vs5 all that while . And u still dont have the items you need .

Neways call me a noob or whatever u want as i am just your average pub level player and this works for me in the bracket i play . Its just that i have never heard or seen runed axe being made in a serious game either so yea its pretty much useless .

UNless your winning 5 mins into the game , and can farm forever without any issues( i.e ur winning neways so build whatever the hell u want to , frostburn , runed axe w/e ) , DONT GET RUNED AXE ON CHRONOS .

what he said. point in fact.


You do realise, especially if your support knows what they're doing, it takes you around 2 minutes to get EP after you get runed axe?Thats not a very long time. The thing with the RA build is, for the first 30 minutes of the game you are pretty useless to your team, but no other build makes chronos more effective late game. He can be played as a mid game ganking type carry, but he can hard carry better than a lot of heroes, and this guide focuses on his ability to hard carry. If you don't have any friends playing with you or people you can rely on, playing this type of chronos is very difficult. You need your team to support you and essentially 5v4 the other team for the 1st 30 minutes, until you can take over and completely dominate the game and win it for your team. You pretty much need your team to pick up a few really strong team fight/ turtle heroes, like plague, magmus and hellbringer so that they can hold the other team off while you get your farm. You also need a really really good support player, who will place wards in your jungle for you, so you can't be ganked while farming and will stack neutrals and ancients for you so when you get your RA you can make your GPM skyrocket. So it pretty much comes down to whether you can rely on the other four players on your team to know how to play and support you while you farm, and in your typical low level pub this is not going to happen. But trust me, if your playing with a few friends and know how to support a chronos while he plays this way nothing dominates as hard late game as a chronos who rushes RA first. I play with Blue_Aura a lot and babysit and support him while he plays chronos, and when a chronos played this way is played properly, nothing compares to how hard he can dominate the game

i agree that the gpm is handy albeit godly. but the point of items is to buy ones that work well with your hero, and while ra enhances his solo fighting abilities in his bubble, it really doesn't anywhere else in the game. in competitive play, i'd assume the opponents aren't stupid and would utilize good positioning, thus alleviating the cleave effects. on top of that, if you don't get your early ganking on, and the other team has matched farming, they will probably ward and start ganking you while you try and farm. and let's be serious, cronos is one of the easiest targets to get while he or she is farming. this is primarily because he only has two active skills. ra provides no survivability, where as ep does. despite the fact that you can already tank a nuke or two, turn on your ep and auto-attack the life you lost from the nukes back. you can turn a forest gank around on just about an hero early game - especially if your support is paying attention and playing well like you said. and as for the gpm - ep enhances that a lot too. maybe not as much as ra, but it's low mana cost allows him to get from camp to camp fast, and farm without ever needing to stop.


I think a lot of the sub 1400 players that think RA is bad have this opinion because they play pubs by themselves and don't have the adequate support and teamwork it takes to play a pure farming chronos.
And in the end, this is a guide after all, a premium guide at that, and it is aimed at teaching players how to improve their game, so if someone comes in and questions things, then it is our job to teach them
repeating ourselves does get tedious though

touche. given my psr and the fact that i have never played cronos with solid teammates - there may be some viability in that statement. however, my point was that ep makes him more effective in the lane and at teamfighting/ganking early on; thus lowering the other teams potential to out-farm while still allowing cronos to maintain good farm, all while buying an item that actually synergizes with his current skills.


Well at least you didn't say OMFG NEVER RUNED IT BAD ITEM MY PSR IS LOW BECAUSE<insert crap here>. Good for you. =D

thank you. i was beginning to think that was the point of this thread. lol.

[Javu]

I think most people attacked you because you spent more time bashing that other guy and his clan than actually commenting on chronos and how to build him. But that aside, as i've said many times, RA doesn't synergise with his skills AT ALL. It synergises with his ROLE. In a team fight, the only thing it gives you is damage, thats it. The thing it gives you though, is the ability to farm items faster than your opposing hard carry. A chronos with a RA, EP, boots and savage mace after 30 mins is going to beat a soulstealer with a portal key, shrunken head and boots, or an arachna with boots and a geos bane. For the first 20-25 mins you won't be able to do much, you won't be able to assist your team in fights or ganks, but if your playing this type of chronos. its NOT YOUR JOB to gank or team fight. But you'll have all the items you need around the 30 minute mark to completely destroy the enemy team, which you simply won't be able to get if your off ganking and helping out in team fights. You shouldn't have too much trouble getting ganked in the forest or your lane because your team should be prepared for this. Your support should have placed wards throughout your jungle so you can see anyone coming, and if the enemy team does come to gank you everyone on your team should b carrying a tp so they can quickly come to help you and hopefully turn the gank in your teams favour. You should also be playing a turtle strat, so unless your entire team just completely dominates the laning phase, most of your team shouldn't be crossing the river, or should be trying to force fights away from you so you can farm in peace. And as i've also already stated, if your team is losing 4v5 you got outpicked or outplayed. You either didn't pick aoe type heroes who can dominate team fights so your team didn't have a hope of turtling out the enemy team without you, or your team pushed out way too far too many times and fed. So essentially, your team should be trying to force 4v5 team fights close to friendly towers and protecting you while you farm to your hearts content. In the current meta game this type of strategy is alot harder to pull off than it used to be, but still, when played right brings out chronos full potential. Im not saying this is the only way you should build chronos, and if you dont get RA your a noob and should uninstall the game and go die etc, etc. It is perfectly viable to get EP and boots first and go round ganking with chronos. But to say that you should never build RA under any circumstances or that this build is worse is completely blind and ignorant, I have seen the effectiveness of this build when played correctly and can vouch for how powerful it is, you just have to know what your doing. In the end, neither build is necessarily better than the other, it is completely situational, however in the perfect circumstances this build will prove stronger than the early game ganking type build, guaranteed

[ObeseSheep]

I think most people attacked you because you spent more time bashing that other guy and his clan than actually commenting on chronos and how to build him. But that aside, as i've said many times, RA doesn't synergise with his skills AT ALL. It synergises with his ROLE. In a team fight, the only thing it gives you is damage, thats it. The thing it gives you though, is the ability to farm items faster than your opposing hard carry. A chronos with a RA, EP, boots and savage mace after 30 mins is going to beat a soulstealer with a portal key, shrunken head and boots, or an arachna with boots and a geos bane. For the first 20-25 mins you won't be able to do much, you won't be able to assist your team in fights or ganks, but if your playing this type of chronos. its NOT YOUR JOB to gank or team fight. But you'll have all the items you need around the 30 minute mark to completely destroy the enemy team, which you simply won't be able to get if your off ganking and helping out in team fights. You shouldn't have too much trouble getting ganked in the forest or your lane because your team should be prepared for this. Your support should have placed wards throughout your jungle so you can see anyone coming, and if the enemy team does come to gank you everyone on your team should b carrying a tp so they can quickly come to help you and hopefully turn the gank in your teams favour. You should also be playing a turtle strat, so unless your entire team just completely dominates the laning phase, most of your team shouldn't be crossing the river, or should be trying to force fights away from you so you can farm in peace. And as i've also already stated, if your team is losing 4v5 you got outpicked or outplayed. You either didn't pick aoe type heroes who can dominate team fights so your team didn't have a hope of turtling out the enemy team without you, or your team pushed out way too far too many times and fed. So essentially, your team should be trying to force 4v5 team fights close to friendly towers and protecting you while you farm to your hearts content. In the current meta game this type of strategy is alot harder to pull off than it used to be, but still, when played right brings out chronos full potential. Im not saying this is the only way you should build chronos, and if you dont get RA your a noob and should uninstall the game and go die etc, etc. It is perfectly viable to get EP and boots first and go round ganking with chronos. But to say that you should never build RA under any circumstances or that this build is worse is completely blind and ignorant, I have seen the effectiveness of this build when played correctly and can vouch for how powerful it is, you just have to know what your doing. In the end, neither build is necessarily better than the other, it is completely situational, however in the perfect circumstances this build will prove stronger than the early game ganking type build, guaranteed

Add this to your guide Blue.

[pwn_U_fast]

I think most people attacked you because you spent more time bashing that other guy and his clan than actually commenting on chronos and how to build him. But that aside, as i've said many times, RA doesn't synergise with his skills AT ALL. It synergises with his ROLE. In a team fight, the only thing it gives you is damage, thats it. The thing it gives you though, is the ability to farm items faster than your opposing hard carry. A chronos with a RA, EP, boots and savage mace after 30 mins is going to beat a soulstealer with a portal key, shrunken head and boots, or an arachna with boots and a geos bane. For the first 20-25 mins you won't be able to do much, you won't be able to assist your team in fights or ganks, but if your playing this type of chronos. its NOT YOUR JOB to gank or team fight. But you'll have all the items you need around the 30 minute mark to completely destroy the enemy team, which you simply won't be able to get if your off ganking and helping out in team fights. You shouldn't have too much trouble getting ganked in the forest or your lane because your team should be prepared for this. Your support should have placed wards throughout your jungle so you can see anyone coming, and if the enemy team does come to gank you everyone on your team should b carrying a tp so they can quickly come to help you and hopefully turn the gank in your teams favour. You should also be playing a turtle strat, so unless your entire team just completely dominates the laning phase, most of your team shouldn't be crossing the river, or should be trying to force fights away from you so you can farm in peace. And as i've also already stated, if your team is losing 4v5 you got outpicked or outplayed. You either didn't pick aoe type heroes who can dominate team fights so your team didn't have a hope of turtling out the enemy team without you, or your team pushed out way too far too many times and fed. So essentially, your team should be trying to force 4v5 team fights close to friendly towers and protecting you while you farm to your hearts content. In the current meta game this type of strategy is alot harder to pull off than it used to be, but still, when played right brings out chronos full potential. Im not saying this is the only way you should build chronos, and if you dont get RA your a noob and should uninstall the game and go die etc, etc. It is perfectly viable to get EP and boots first and go round ganking with chronos. But to say that you should never build RA under any circumstances or that this build is worse is completely blind and ignorant, I have seen the effectiveness of this build when played correctly and can vouch for how powerful it is, you just have to know what your doing. In the end, neither build is necessarily better than the other, it is completely situational, however in the perfect circumstances this build will prove stronger than the early game ganking type build, guaranteed

good rebuttal. i guess in the sense of a pure farm build it probably makes more sense. i agree to that the pure farm cronos/team turtle strat does bring out his full potential, but they way the meta game is set up now, i think like you said, its really hard to pull off succesfully. there are soo many good early game heroes like dw, witch, pyro, that they can instagib and stop a pure farmer. this is why i prefer the ep build, so you are more viable early on, when your team may need you. i guess this comes down to team picks, and what play style you do best in.

if you're good at turtling and your team picked to favor that. turtle away.

if you like to get involved right away, maybe you should have picked a hero that's better at that, but the ep/savage mace build is pretty good for getting involved.


Add this to your guide Blue.

please use discretion. i would not appreciate you slandering my name in a guide.

[ObeseSheep]

good rebuttal. i guess in the sense of a pure farm build it probably makes more sense. i agree to that the pure farm cronos/team turtle strat does bring out his full potential, but they way the meta game is set up now, i think like you said, its really hard to pull off succesfully. there are soo many good early game heroes like dw, witch, pyro, that they can instagib and stop a pure farmer. this is why i prefer the ep build, so you are more viable early on, when your team may need you. i guess this comes down to team picks, and what play style you do best in.

if you're good at turtling and your team picked to favor that. turtle away.

if you like to get involved right away, maybe you should have picked a hero that's better at that, but the ep/savage mace build is pretty good for getting involved.



please use discretion. i would not appreciate you slandering my name in a guide.


Forgot about that my bad. He gave great points though.

[SilverStars]

good rebuttal. i guess in the sense of a pure farm build it probably makes more sense. i agree to that the pure farm cronos/team turtle strat does bring out his full potential, but they way the meta game is set up now, i think like you said, its really hard to pull off succesfully. there are soo many good early game heroes like dw, witch, pyro, that they can instagib and stop a pure farmer. this is why i prefer the ep build, so you are more viable early on, when your team may need you. i guess this comes down to team picks, and what play style you do best in.

if you're good at turtling and your team picked to favor that. turtle away.

if you like to get involved right away, maybe you should have picked a hero that's better at that, but the ep/savage mace build is pretty good for getting involved.

please use discretion. i would not appreciate you slandering my name in a guide.

Are you trolling me? (my sig)

I suppose EP-Mace is pretty good now, especially with Mace's buffed damage. Still I like Shieldbreaker so Alch-Steams-Shieldbreaker-Wingbow/Riftshards-Riftshards/Wingbow because, as I said, 1.4 STR gain. Lowest STR gain in the agi section (in the game?) and that's why you need Steams on him, but really I wouldn't degrade that further by getting Elder.

Then again, I need to actually try out my theoretical build a bit more before I get any results, so I'm off to play HoN when I get the chance.

[ObeseSheep]

Are you trolling me? (my sig)

I suppose EP-Mace is pretty good now, especially with Mace's buffed damage. Still I like Shieldbreaker so Alch-Steams-Shieldbreaker-Wingbow/Riftshards-Riftshards/Wingbow because, as I said, 1.4 STR gain. Lowest STR gain in the agi section (in the game?) and that's why you need Steams on him, but really I wouldn't degrade that further by getting Elder.

Then again, I need to actually try out my theoretical build a bit more before I get any results, so I'm off to play HoN when I get the chance.

It's the worst in the game. You're right but :AlchemistBones:?


Alchemist Bones (Optional)






http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Gloves3.jpg

1000 2x Gloves of the Swift
900 1x Alchemist Bones
1900 Total Gold

+30 Attack Speed
Active: Transmute (25 mana cost, 100 second cooldown, 600 range, target creep is killed by 3x bounty)

Contrary to most people, I find this item very optional. It will increase your GPM but by buying this item, you will delay your core item build (Thunderclaw + Frostburn).

Let's do some mathcraft. The cooldown for Alchemist Bones is 100 seconds. Now. If you get lucky, you could get 6 back to back Vagabond Leaders to turn into gold and that will pay off your Alchemist bones in 10 minutes (6 x 100 seconds). However, You'll get Vulture Lords, Centaurs, Skeleton Kings, and Catmen. You'll also get the occasional catapults when you'll be farming in the lane.

Average bounty for Catman Champion is 82. Vulture Lord is 72. Skeleton King is 58. Minotaur is 72. Vagabond Leader is 100. Catapult is 68. And them all up and you get an average of 75.33 repeated per creep. Multiply by 3 and you get an average of 226 gold per Alchemist Bones use. 1900/224 = 8.4 --> round up to 9 because you can use them .4 times. 900 seconds (15 minutes) is the average to pay off your Alchemist Bones. If you average 350 gold per minute (which is possible) during those 50 minutes, you'll get 5250 gold. That's pretty good. After those 15 minutes, Alchemist Bones will start becoming pure profit while giving you 30 IAS. However, with 5250 gold you've got a Mock. With the 1900 gold you spent from buying Alchemist bones, you could just get a pair of Steamboots. Doing some more math. With 1900 gold, 1450 could be used for Steamboots and another 50 will be needed to get Marchers for your bear. Now you have 5200 gold left over from that 15 minute rice. Thunderclaw costs 3000 and Icebrand costs 2200. Perfect. However, with Alchemist Bones you'll get all of these at the same time, except each individual part is delayed a little.

Alchemist Bones is a great item to improve your farm but is not necessary 100% of the time. If you choose to get it, rush it and get it ASAP to maximize its efficiency.






This is from Tryptophan's :wild: guide. He points out why it's good on :wild: however, I also think this points out why it's ONLY good on :wild:. Booboo makes very good use of it for farming. Also, :chro: isn't going to be jungling all the time to make use of it as much as :wild: and Booboo. I wouldn't get it.

:chro: NEEDS life steal. If you are not going to get :ElderParasite: then at least get :SymbolOfRage:. :Shieldbreaker: got heavily nerfed with the lifesteal atk mod change. :SavageMace: is OP and does more dmg anyway. Might as well get lifesteal. Also, life steal gives more survivibility.

[pwn_U_fast]

:chro: NEEDS life steal. If you are not going to get :ElderParasite: then at least get :SymbolOfRage:. :Shieldbreaker: got heavily nerfed with the lifesteal atk mod change. :SavageMace: is OP and does more dmg anyway. Might as well get lifesteal. Also, life steal gets more survivibility.

amen. lifesteal is a necessity on chronos.

[pwn_U_fast]

Are you trolling me? (my sig)

no. i have never INTENTIONALLY trolled. maybe i did on accident. not my intentions. I was simply saying if you add something to your guide. please don't reference me in your guide for being an idiot or some ignorant fool. i don't desire to be the next dead head fred.

[Blue_Aura]

Hey guys, sorry for the lack of updates recently, I'm currently working on making this into a video guide, however each time I login I find myself playing a game and making no progress haha. Hopefully I'll get a lot of it done tomorrow :D.

[pwn_U_fast]

Hey guys, sorry for the lack of updates recently, I'm currently working on making this into a video guide, however each time I login I find myself playing a game and making no progress haha. Hopefully I'll get a lot of it done tomorrow :D.

Haha, that happens, which is why my DW guide has had no changes since july.

[Jhyphi]

What about :AbyssalSkull: so that you still have attack mod for :Shieldbreaker:?

[pwn_U_fast]

What about :AbyssalSkull: so that you still have attack mod for :Shieldbreaker:?

I'd say you are going to lose some significant stun procs, burst dps, and ganking abilities by going abyssal over elder. yeah the added orb would be nice, but you better compensate your ias and ms if you're going to do that to get your burst dps up.

[Ryper7]

What about :AbyssalSkull: so that you still have attack mod for :Shieldbreaker:?
adding to the above post, you can also just toggle modifiers between shielbreaker and ep if you rly want, but savage mace provides enough damage and is a suitable replacement to shieldbreaker

[pwn_U_fast]

adding to the above post, you can also just toggle modifiers between shielbreaker and ep if you rly want, but savage mace provides enough damage and is a suitable replacement to shieldbreaker

touche. i dont mess with toggling attack modifiers. i feel that there are better ways to build items around heroes than worrying about that.

[Jhyphi]

I'd say you are going to lose some significant stun procs, burst dps, and ganking abilities by going abyssal over elder. yeah the added orb would be nice, but you better compensate your ias and ms if you're going to do that to get your burst dps up.

Hmmm......the reason I asked is that abyssal gives far better overall stats.

Abyssal has:
+15% base damage
+5 armor
+0.8 mana regen

EP:
+100 attack speed
+20% damage taken (bad)

So in a teamfight, unless you manage to get all their range in the sphere, you gain +100 attack speed vs. 15% base damage (how big is that since proc stuns in sphere are meaningless?), while at same time going from +5 armor to +20% damage taken.

5 armor = about 20% less damage, so essentially you're now taking +40% more damage using EP vs. Skull making you super squishy for the benefit of 100 attack vs. 15% base damage.

Any range not caught in sphere can kill you really quickly. Or a swiftblade not caught in sphere using ulti on you. Or any number of things. This makes putting a sphere down infinitely harder to make sure you get all range heroes.

[ObeseSheep]

What about :AbyssalSkull: so that you still have attack mod for :Shieldbreaker:?


Hmmm......the reason I asked is that abyssal gives far better overall stats.

Abyssal has:
+15% base damage
+5 armor
+0.8 mana regen

EP:
+100 attack speed
+20% damage taken (bad)

So in a teamfight, unless you manage to get all their range in the sphere, you gain +100 attack speed vs. 15% base damage (how big is that since proc stuns in sphere are meaningless?), while at same time going from +5 armor to +20% damage taken.

5 armor = about 20% less damage, so essentially you're now taking +40% more damage using EP vs. Skull making you super squishy for the benefit of 100 attack vs. 15% base damage.

Any range not caught in sphere can kill you really quickly. Or a swiftblade not caught in sphere using ulti on you. Or any number of things. This makes putting a sphere down infinitely harder to make sure you get all range heroes.

Your points are completely understandable but I find that in the :AbyssalSkull: VS :ElderParasite:/:SymbolOfRage:, :AbyssalSkull: always loses.
:chro: is the only hero that works VERY well with :ElderParasite:. It synergises very well with his bash and I find then when I don't get it, :chro: just isn't the same. I would only get :WhisperingHelm:/:SymbolOfRage: when I get :GeometersBane: because :ElderParasite: can get removed by :GeometersBane:.
I get the :GeometersBane:+:SymbolOfRage: when I need mroe survivability and I get :ElderParasite: when I don't. :AbyssalSkull:+:Shieldbreaker: doesn't even do as much dmg as :ElderParasite:.

Point is: :SymbolOfRage: is better for the metagame and :ElderParasite: is better DPS. Get your support hero to get :AbyssalSkull:

[HaydosMang]

:chro: stacks well with attack speed due to stun procs and agility steal (easy to underestimate the bonus damage you do towards the end of an ulti due to stolen agility)

Therefore, :ElderParasite: is a strong item. :Thunderclaw: is an item that stacks with attack speed due to procs on attack, as well as giving extra attack speed in itself. Combine this with the fact that it can be combined with a :Warpcleft: into a :ChargedHammer: for even more attack speed.



tl;dr
If you get :ElderParasite:, :Thunderclaw: -> :ChargedHammer: becomes viable?

[ObeseSheep]

:chro: stacks well with attack speed due to stun procs and agility steal (easy to underestimate the bonus damage you do towards the end of an ulti due to stolen agility)

Therefore, :ElderParasite: is a strong item. :Thunderclaw: is an item that stacks with attack speed due to procs on attack, as well as giving extra attack speed in itself. Combine this with the fact that it can be combined with a :Warpcleft: into a :ChargedHammer: for even more attack speed.



tl;dr
If you get :ElderParasite:, :Thunderclaw: -> :ChargedHammer: becomes viable?

There are so many other dps choises other then :ChargedHammer:. If you want atk speed on agi carries, get :Wingbow:. I would even get :DaemonicBreastplate before :ChargedHammer: anyday.

[pwn_U_fast]

Hmmm......the reason I asked is that abyssal gives far better overall stats.

Abyssal has:
+15% base damage
+5 armor
+0.8 mana regen

EP:
+100 attack speed
+20% damage taken (bad)

So in a teamfight, unless you manage to get all their range in the sphere, you gain +100 attack speed vs. 15% base damage (how big is that since proc stuns in sphere are meaningless?), while at same time going from +5 armor to +20% damage taken.

5 armor = about 20% less damage, so essentially you're now taking +40% more damage using EP vs. Skull making you super squishy for the benefit of 100 attack vs. 15% base damage.

Any range not caught in sphere can kill you really quickly. Or a swiftblade not caught in sphere using ulti on you. Or any number of things. This makes putting a sphere down infinitely harder to make sure you get all range heroes.

The ias for stun procs isn't important when he spheres, it's for ganking, when you catch an opponent all by himself. You can easily elder, and autoattack for a kill because you will proc stuns extremely fast. obviously i would timewarp away if the person you find is an instagibber like ws, pyro or dw.

Additionally, elder has more Lifesteal (iirc), which is much needed on cronos (more on this later). Abyssal does give a slight mana regen, but if youre farming, he doesnt need it because the elder cooldown is long enough such that early game he regens most of the elder mana cost back by the time its off cooldown. and the armor is good to reduce damage, but late game your banking on your ability to output more damage then your opponent via a super fast attack speed, interrupting your opponents attacks/casts via stun procs, and gaining life back faster than you take damage because your damage output is so high. thats where the elder becomes important. if your damage output is around the 350 mark later game, cronos is hard to kill with ep. if he takes damage, he has a chance to regen it from his skill, and if it doesnt, then you are assuming you're damage output will be high enough such that the life you are stealing from opponents will compensate anyway. this is why cronos is able to survive with virtually 1500 health near endgame - he steals it all back or it regens from his skill.

with abyssal, you just take too much of an attack speed loss early game. chances are you won't be high enough in gold/min to compensate for that loss late game. this is due to elder being a better farm item, as it allows him to move from camp to camp with higher ms and as, upping gold/min at a low mana cost. lastly, it makes u less viable in ganking/teamfighting, as you won't have the same damage output as you would with elder - meaning you won't be getting hero kills and you will suffer a gold loss.

lastly, yes the increased 20% damage taken during ep's activation is something to consider. you have to be careful and smart about activation. never activate ep with a ws, pyro, or dw present and alive. those should be cronos first focus, to eliminate anyone who will one shot him after activating ep. considering that, most teams won't have all three of those heroes, and you can usually isolate one or two of them with good wards, and cronos can easily take on ws, dw, or pyro with the help of a stunner. another point too, is that if you really do have instagibbers, or are concerned about survivability with ep, get a shrunken head. it will make you invulnerable to magic, thus nullifying any one shots from ws, pyro, or dw. give you a higher life pool, more damage (so more lifesteal), and negate any magic damage you may receive.

do you get it now?


There are so many other dps choises other then . If you want atk speed on agi carries, get . I would even get before anyday.

and actually demonic bp isnt a bad choice on cronos, because the increased ias once again synergizes, armor adds to survivability, and enemy armor reduction increases life stolen via ep, as well as damage output.

[ObeseSheep]

and actually demonic bp isnt a bad choice on cronos, because the increased ias once again synergizes, armor adds to survivability, and enemy armor reduction increases life stolen via ep, as well as damage output.

You sould like I said it was bad. I'm saying :DaemonicBreastplate is better. That's it.

[HTID]

Haha I R BETTA CHRONOS THAN YU in game without premium guide skills. Seriously though, i am luckier than you in games so i farm faster.

[Javu]

The ias for stun procs isn't important when he spheres, it's for ganking, when you catch an opponent all by himself. You can easily elder, and autoattack for a kill because you will proc stuns extremely fast. obviously i would timewarp away if the person you find is an instagibber like ws, pyro or dw.

Additionally, elder has more Lifesteal (iirc), which is much needed on cronos (more on this later). Abyssal does give a slight mana regen, but if youre farming, he doesnt need it because the elder cooldown is long enough such that early game he regens most of the elder mana cost back by the time its off cooldown. and the armor is good to reduce damage, but late game your banking on your ability to output more damage then your opponent via a super fast attack speed, interrupting your opponents attacks/casts via stun procs, and gaining life back faster than you take damage because your damage output is so high. thats where the elder becomes important. if your damage output is around the 350 mark later game, cronos is hard to kill with ep. if he takes damage, he has a chance to regen it from his skill, and if it doesnt, then you are assuming you're damage output will be high enough such that the life you are stealing from opponents will compensate anyway. this is why cronos is able to survive with virtually 1500 health near endgame - he steals it all back or it regens from his skill.

with abyssal, you just take too much of an attack speed loss early game. chances are you won't be high enough in gold/min to compensate for that loss late game. this is due to elder being a better farm item, as it allows him to move from camp to camp with higher ms and as, upping gold/min at a low mana cost. lastly, it makes u less viable in ganking/teamfighting, as you won't have the same damage output as you would with elder - meaning you won't be getting hero kills and you will suffer a gold loss.

lastly, yes the increased 20% damage taken during ep's activation is something to consider. you have to be careful and smart about activation. never activate ep with a ws, pyro, or dw present and alive. those should be cronos first focus, to eliminate anyone who will one shot him after activating ep. considering that, most teams won't have all three of those heroes, and you can usually isolate one or two of them with good wards, and cronos can easily take on ws, dw, or pyro with the help of a stunner. another point too, is that if you really do have instagibbers, or are concerned about survivability with ep, get a shrunken head. it will make you invulnerable to magic, thus nullifying any one shots from ws, pyro, or dw. give you a higher life pool, more damage (so more lifesteal), and negate any magic damage you may receive.

do you get it now?



and actually demonic bp isnt a bad choice on cronos, because the increased ias once again synergizes, armor adds to survivability, and enemy armor reduction increases life stolen via ep, as well as damage output.
His last point about shrunken head is exactly what i was thinking. If you get an EP, 90% of the time you'll be using it directly after you bubble, meaning the majority of their team cannot do anything to you while you have the 20% increased damage on you, meaning EP essential becomes a +100 attack speed + lifesteal item with no downside. Even if a range hero is outside the bubble, their dps alone won't be enough to counteract your lifesteal so this isn't a problem. The only time EP will be a problem is if the enemy team has alot of stunners and your having a hard time catching all of their stunners in your bubble. If you get cced while you have your EP activated you will not be able to lifesteal back any damage you take nor will you be able to utilise the incredible +as it gives you, meaning EP essentially becomes a +20% damage taken item with no benefits. As this will mostly happen in your chronofield, you will not only be sitting their taking 20% bonus damage from any range heroes you don't catch in it, but your ulti cooldown will also be wasted. This is a situation we simply don't want to be in, but EP is such a great item on chronos I wouldn't want to forgoe it. Hence shrunken head is the perfect item in this situation. Get a SH and if you don't manage to land your bubble on all their stunners, simply pop your SH and your EP and proceed to melt one of their heroes

Also, gotta give some credit to this pwn u fast guy, i don't think i've ever seen someone with such low psr that actually knew what they were talking about, respect

[Blue_Aura]

If you get :ElderParasite:, :Thunderclaw: -> :ChargedHammer: becomes viable?

Nope, it's never viable, Don't know what people see in this item for Chronos. It does not belong on him... Ever.


Also, gotta give some credit to this pwn u fast guy, i don't think i've ever seen someone with such low psr that actually knew what they were talking about, respectI was just thinking the exact same thing :D!


Haha I R BETTA CHRONOS THAN YU in game without premium guide skills. Seriously though, i am luckier than you in games so i farm faster.

LOL High, Keep trolling ma guide man :D

Next time your on I wanna see you play him :D, I'll babysit ur noob a$$ :D

[HTID]

You know, situational items could include null stone. The item is supposed to fill in the gap between mobility skill cooldowns for mm and hag, but it fits on chronos well against pyro spider and especially sr. Cool survivability for any whacking hero. (Flashback to the blink pyro with wards and cw everywhere in our ricefields)

[monsterr]

You know, situational items could include null stone. The item is supposed to fill in the gap between mobility skill cooldowns for mm and hag, but it fits on chronos well against pyro spider and especially sr. Cool survivability for any whacking hero. (Flashback to the blink pyro with wards and cw everywhere in our ricefields)

or you could build a shrunken head, which costs less and is more effective.

[Flex_Kavana]

Soulreaper is no babysitter, he's a semi-carry.

[pwn_U_fast]

Also, gotta give some credit to this pwn u fast guy, i don't think i've ever seen someone with such low psr that actually knew what they were talking about, respect

THANK YOU! :) That was a really nice thing to say and I've been getting a lot of flack recently, such as 'dude your psr is 1200 stfu'

edit: And Blue_Aura as well!

a litte OT but i'll take a moment and defend my psr...

No one believes me that i have knowledge (referring to in games, the forums i think i get a lot more respect, this is largely due to my psr and the fact that my psr isn't bluntly listed next to my nickname :)), i just am not very good gameplay (i wouldn't say i'm horrible but i'm no HenryD lol), and then you start with bad lanes and your teammates suck, and you try to tell them to swap lanes and their dumb and dont listen. or they have a support hero the steals all the creepkills from your carry. or a nh who won't smoke in teamfights (probably my biggest annoyance atm, happened 3 times last night!).

my .7 kdr says it all especially considering the amount of games ive played and WHO i played those games with (nubs). also my creep kills and denies are that of an 'average' player, maybe lacking a little in the deny dept. im not great, im not bad, i had it up to .8 for a while when i was sitting in the 1600 bracket, but i lost like 400 psr about a month ago now playing NO AB games...bad idea.

i play to my teammates abilities, if they suck i lose interest, and play poorly because i know its a lost cause.

i also usually play AP games and random, as i like variety and the +200 gold, thus there is no particular hero that i am 'good' at. i suppose if i really wanted to get out of my bracket i could just pick cronos everygame and rapeface lategame to get psr...but where is the fun in that? (or solo mid zephyr which can lead to some op farm really really fast).

i was a dota player for 2 years before converting to hon about 5 months before retail, so that should say i have pretty good game knowledge.

i don't care about stats too much cuz im not pro, and tbh, HoN is just a game so in the end it doesn't really mean anything to someone like me. I play it for entertainment value, and being <1200 now, its hard to be 'entertained' in the games i play, because the ability and knowledge of the people around me is god awful. support heroes dont ward. carries dont know how to farm. you get a jungling temp with arcane ring who hasn't even farmed pk by the 15 minute mark. **** like that.

In the end PSR is truly relative. you have to consider other stats for it to be useful (at least at or below the 1500s)

EDIT:


Soulreaper is no babysitter, he's a semi-carry.
In regards to this, he can be played a semi-carry, but he can also be built around support, which IMO is a better teamplay build, as there are better semi-carries, and better carries.

[Javu]

haha dw my kdr is .7 as well, but i do play pretty much exclusive support/babysitter/ward *****. And i have to die a lot to save n00b blue_aura from dieing when he gets caught in bad situations <3

[Jhyphi]

No one believes me that i have knowledge (referring to in games, the forums i think i get a lot more respect, this is largely due to my psr and the fact that my psr isn't bluntly listed next to my nickname :)), i just am not very good gameplay (i wouldn't say i'm horrible but i'm no HenryD lol), and then you start with bad lanes and your teammates suck

In the end PSR is truly relative. you have to consider other stats for it to be useful (at least at or below the 1500s)


To preface, I'm in no ways a good player. I'm ok-ish. Now on to my thoughts.

You may have decent general knowledge but your actual in-game practice of it must be sub-par, whether it is doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, attacking the wrong target, positioning, wasting time being idle, harrassing the babysitter out of lane but leaving carry alone, or something.

I firmly believe people belong at the PSR they are at +/-50 or so.

Considering the game is usually balanced near 50/50%, you will always be matched up with someone with your equal PSR on the similar team (or the sort where it balances out on the team), so in the long run, you simply need to perform better than that "player" / your PSR and you will move up. For every awesome or bad player on your team, it'll even out to be on other team some other game. You don't even have to be the best player on your teams. Simply perform above what someone of your PSR performs at and you'll go up in the long run.

This game only has 10 players, which is not that many. In any given game, sure, you can lose, but over the long run, you'll be at your PSR. You control your 10%. The one constant in ALL your games is that you are playing.

[Javu]

yeah, but he did say that skill wise, he probably does belong at or close to the psr he has. But the thing is, knowledge wise, he probably has the knowledge of a 1700-1800 player, he just doesn't have the skill to prove it. The problem is, he probably cops **** for his psr, and probably constantly has to deal with crap like 'look at your psr your a noob you don't know anything stfu', when in actual fact he's probably right and the person bad mouthing him is wrong. So yeah, he probably is at the right psr for his in game skill, but that doesn't reflect his knowledge of the game/meta game, which should be well above where his actual psr is. So psr doesn't necessarily reflect knowledge

[HTID]

or you could build a shrunken head, which costs less and is more effective.

Quote "Situational".

Examples:
:hamm::magm::plag::pebb::thun: Head (bkb)
:soulr::andr::devo::arac::dead::ramp: Null (linkens)

Based on your previous comments alone, you sound like you are saying null is just an inferior item choice compared to head. IMO games are always situational, although head will be used more.

As someone who runs around and whacks people, Chronos will benefit from either of these items (null, head). The item to choose will change according to enemy lineups.

[pwn_U_fast]

IMO games are always situational, although head will be used more.

I agree, :). That is always 100% true. Even tho there are preferred item choices, builds, synergies, a game is always 100% situational. That's the beauty of HoN. Obviously for carry type heroes, shrunken is more preferred because overall you have a better chance of saving your own skin with a shrunken head than a nullstone. however, nullstone is a very very good situational, survivability option, that is very good if your opponent has a couple of targetting instagibbers. however, i think shrunken, for the most part, is better, especially for a carry, because of the life and damage bonuses. (especially for cronos, because he doesn't need regen, he needs damage).

yeah, but he did say that skill wise, he probably does belong at or close to the psr he has. But the thing is, knowledge wise, he probably has the knowledge of a 1700-1800 player, he just doesn't have the skill to prove it. The problem is, he probably cops **** for his psr, and probably constantly has to deal with crap like 'look at your psr your a noob you don't know anything stfu', when in actual fact he's probably right and the person bad mouthing him is wrong. So yeah, he probably is at the right psr for his in game skill, but that doesn't reflect his knowledge of the game/meta game, which should be well above where his actual psr is. So psr doesn't necessarily reflect knowledge

skillwise, ya id say im 1300-1400, knowledge, 1700. combined skill and knowledge probably puts me at about 1500, when playing pubs, 1600 playing with my clan (because i don't do as many stupid things).

Javu is right though, in pub games it's so hard to coordinate anything. people won't listen to me even at the start of the game when i do lane suggestions, simply because of my psr. when i play with my clan, if i have a good idea they listen. and we switch lanes, and our support actually plays support and covers the carry. in pubs it's really 'everyman for himself! i WILL KS the carry to improve my own KDR!' which is really fuking annoying.

I've said before, i'm not too worried, i know where my skills lie, and yes there is room for vast improvement of my skills. I think the thing i can improve upon most, is my attitude when playing pubs...i should try and salvage games more often, instead of getting disheartened and adding to the feed when my team goes 0-5, i should focus more on winning my lane so we can recover later.

I will admit one of my biggest flaws IS positioning in team fights, but i am getting A LOT better at that. I had a 6-2-20 (ish, dont remember exactly) balphagore the other day with some decent pub teammates. We basically won because of my push power, map awareness and control, me having good positioning to avoid disables and rack charges on my ult, and then doing a good job of filling a tank/support role. my slows and silences were used at very opportune moments, and i did not ks the **** out of our carry. guess what, i feel that game i was playing at a 1700 level in a pub for once. it was a very good feeling that i don't get very often in pubs. The overall point of this is, don't judge my knowledge on my skill. lol. sorry i'm rambling a bit.

[Balinor]

Wow blue, didn't know you had written a premium guide :).

[SilverStars]

Lol, when did this thread get derailed into an "analyse pwn_U_fast's skill level"?

Anyway I've been playing some Chronos recently and I'd like you to consider alternate core builds still, because, well, Elder really fades in effectiveness lategame when you have a decent base attack speed, and sometimes you don't activate it anyway so it's only worth a passive 18% lifesteal. In this case I'd take Whispering Helm or Symbol of Rage, both are good carry items with good survivability on them. In addition, even lifesteal itself might be bad on Chronos without Shrunken or Nullstone. My reasoning is that you usually don't need to steal life in Chronofield, if someone's left outside with your 20% you might die anyway, if no one's left outside you don't need to steal life.

Anyway, Runed Axe is a lategame item, Elder is an earlygame item. They don't seem to fit together all that well. I suppose you can go early power Chronos dropping your Elder later, but really I prefer not having to drop a non-farm or non-regen item (e.g. dropping Alch's Loggers Bottle is fine) and also you should consider Enhanced Marchers with earlygame Chronos build, especially in a trilane, as the 10 STR is only useful if you're going heavy farm (I wouldn't ever switch it to AGI, 10 AS and 10 damage is pretty much worthless) and the 24 damage and extra movespeed and phase is really quite helpful if you're earlygaming.

[IHitYouHARD]

Its a nice guide, but I have to add, that rewind makes him incredibly hard to kill in lategame. once cronos gets any sort of stacking evasion and decent hp regen (at least for a public player) he is impossible to kill. I would like to see him nerved a little bit for the sake of the fun-gamers in public like me. Cronos really ruins games. A little nerve in his lategame and he would e decent again. :)

[HTID]

Lol, when did this thread get derailed into an "analyse pwn_U_fast's skill level"?

Anyway I've been playing some Chronos recently and I'd like you to consider alternate core builds still, because, well, Elder really fades in effectiveness lategame when you have a decent base attack speed, and sometimes you don't activate it anyway so it's only worth a passive 18% lifesteal. In this case I'd take Whispering Helm or Symbol of Rage, both are good carry items with good survivability on them. In addition, even lifesteal itself might be bad on Chronos without Shrunken or Nullstone. My reasoning is that you usually don't need to steal life in Chronofield, if someone's left outside with your 20% you might die anyway, if no one's left outside you don't need to steal life.

Anyway, Runed Axe is a lategame item, Elder is an earlygame item. They don't seem to fit together all that well. I suppose you can go early power Chronos dropping your Elder later, but really I prefer not having to drop a non-farm or non-regen item (e.g. dropping Alch's Loggers Bottle is fine) and also you should consider Enhanced Marchers with earlygame Chronos build, especially in a trilane, as the 10 STR is only useful if you're going heavy farm (I wouldn't ever switch it to AGI, 10 AS and 10 damage is pretty much worthless) and the 24 damage and extra movespeed and phase is really quite helpful if you're earlygaming.

W Helm is less effective on Chronos until the game drags on REALLY long. In HoN Chronos' third skill steals agility in addition to bonus damage+stun proc and the skill is based on the number of hits you do. AS maximizes utility. Dude, if you get EP you are going to activate it most of the time when it is off cd. It only costs 25 mana. You should only be soloing people if you have good farm, so the 20% damage wouldn't matter at that stage. If you are just fighting with even numbers without bubble, you have team mates rite? IMHO helmet's best perk for Chronos is ancient stacking, as the LS orb and AS from EP keeps you fairly healthy on hp (good with head or just support heroes), so no need for the raw armour bonus (you stack armour with agility on other items anyways). Inside the bubble, you might stay on full hp if you caught most people in it, but more procs and stats equals more win. If someone damages you from outside the bubble a lot, head usually solves the problem. Plus you have your team that you didn't catch in your bubble, let them cc/distract/whatever the guy pounding you.

Late game items and early game items, who cares about the usage period difference, good item choices are good item choices. RA scales: more damage = more cleave. RA buildup is good early for regen. RA is good for farming/pushing/cleaving enemies in bubble all game.
Trololol ghost on Chronos (you succeeded). You are not a ganker (not really anyways), stats are better than raw damage. You has blinky blinky, so if you still need to phase creeps or extra running speed then...
I would only get ghost on Chronos if I play solo mid and match with bottle to grab runes faster.
Whats strength got to do with farming?
So you dont like extra dps while farming? (a.k.a. faster farming, but also better last hitting if you choose to static in short lane for 45 minutes like i do) (hint: in your jungle you can usually SEE DEM COMMIN AT U) So you'd rather have that hp bonus later on in the game when stats and various items give you decent hp?

[HTID]

Its a nice guide, but I have to add, that rewind makes him incredibly hard to kill in lategame. once cronos gets any sort of stacking evasion and decent hp regen (at least for a public player) he is impossible to kill. I would like to see him nerved a little bit for the sake of the fun-gamers in public like me. Cronos really ruins games. A little nerve in his lategame and he would e decent again. :)

How do nerf rewind moar while not totally changing the concept?
(I mean people cried enough when rewind was changed from 'evasion' to 'hp regen')

How does rewind ruin games? Just because people rage when he rewinds a silver bullet or something doesn't mean OH NOES GAME GOT RUINED, NERF CHRONOS NOW!

ITS CHRONOS, NOT CRONOS NOT CRONO.

[IHitYouHARD]

Sorry for misspelling the name jeez,
but it is just my oppinion no reason to go ballistic on me.
I just find that the skill makes him close to impossible to kill in LG :/
And I am not whining or flaming about it, it is just a suggestion
Fishcatch

[HTID]

Sorry for misspelling the name jeez,
but it is just my oppinion no reason to go ballistic on me.
I just find that the skill makes him close to impossible to kill in LG :/
And I am not whining or flaming about it, it is just a suggestion
Fishcatch

My tone may sound like I'm raging but I'm not, really. Although, have you seen those 'Mengs' or whatever they call 'guys' in their language? "HEY LET ME KRONO I CANS CARRY TEAM".

Well, can you suggest how to change rewind so it doesn't annoy pubbies?

[IHitYouHARD]

Hmmm,

I can't in fact but i was just throwing it out there, because I just felt like getting feedback from other people on this "issue". I doubt that any higher skilled players have difficulties dealing with chronos. I know it's hard to do something against it because chronos would become a rare pick i higher skilled games.

[pwn_U_fast]

sorry about the rant that's my bad and OT.

anyway, i highly prefer ep over Whisp Helm, for the ias bonuses and everything i discussed previously. once you have an ep, its usually very easy to farm a shrunken head, so if you are worried about magic damage, just get that right away.

like highonpetrol said, the whispering helm isn't effective until basically end game, when you have savage mace, wingbow, and can literally gangrape their entire team anyway. Granted, yes it adds a lot of survivability, but the money for that item can be better spent.

[SilverStars]

You're still not seeing my point, maybe I structured my (relatively short) argument incorrectly or something. You can't just pick "oh hey Whispering Helm" out of my argument and go off about that.

Yes, Whispering Helm is a lategame item. Runed Axe is a lategame item.

And as to your "can gangrape the entire team", you can look at any long comp game and look at the carry farming up 6 luxuries...and look at the enemy carry also farming up 6 luxuries. You do not auto-win as Chronos when you're farmed, unless you have those 6 luxuries 20 minutes in and are dominating 25-0 or something.

[HTID]

You're still not seeing my point, maybe I structured my (relatively short) argument incorrectly or something. You can't just pick "oh hey Whispering Helm" out of my argument and go off about that.

Yes, Whispering Helm is a lategame item. Runed Axe is a lategame item.

And as to your "can gangrape the entire team", you can look at any long comp game and look at the carry farming up 6 luxuries...and look at the enemy carry also farming up 6 luxuries. You do not auto-win as Chronos when you're farmed, unless you have those 6 luxuries 20 minutes in and are dominating 25-0 or something.

OK, my previous points and some others in tl;dr form:
1. EP gives as, ls for hp replenishment.
2. WH, (ON NOES WH jokes) is a great carry item. Survivability from armour and good ls.
3. EP is a better item choice than WH in most situations, on CHRONOS. EP bonuses on Chronos just outweighs the bonuses WH gives for Chronos to the point that I will not pick it until after post haste or something.

So, can I now say that I have valid points to denying WH in most situations on Chronos, not just based off biased opinions?

And, I don't really see your points clearly. Care to do a list?

[pwn_U_fast]

agree with high on petrol. i have posted some very strong arguments a few posts back as to why the EP is so powerful on cronos.

to name a few

1. LS
2. MS
3. Low Cool Down
4. Low mana Cost
5. More Stun Procs
6. Farm potential
7. Debatable Survivability (because of LS, but not true when activated)

Whispering Helm
1. LS
2. Armor
3. Survivability
4. Farm Potential

Basically everything you get from whispering helm and more. The synergies from EP just outweigh the WH, in 95% of situations (IMO).

Can you add to this?

[ObeseSheep]

Quote "Situational".

Examples:
:hamm::magm::plag::pebb::thun: Head (bkb)
:soulr::andr::devo::arac::dead::ramp: Null (linkens)

Based on your previous comments alone, you sound like you are saying null is just an inferior item choice compared to head. IMO games are always situational, although head will be used more.

As someone who runs around and whacks people, Chronos will benefit from either of these items (null, head). The item to choose will change according to enemy lineups.

The problem is that in every situation :Nullstone: is better, you should be targeting the heroes that counter your :ShrunkenHead:, like the :dead: you mentioned.


Lol, when did this thread get derailed into an "analyse pwn_U_fast's skill level"?

Anyway I've been playing some Chronos recently and I'd like you to consider alternate core builds still, because, well, Elder really fades in effectiveness lategame when you have a decent base attack speed, and sometimes you don't activate it anyway so it's only worth a passive 18% lifesteal. In this case I'd take Whispering Helm or Symbol of Rage, both are good carry items with good survivability on them. In addition, even lifesteal itself might be bad on Chronos without Shrunken or Nullstone. My reasoning is that you usually don't need to steal life in Chronofield, if someone's left outside with your 20% you might die anyway, if no one's left outside you don't need to steal life.

Anyway, Runed Axe is a lategame item, Elder is an earlygame item. They don't seem to fit together all that well. I suppose you can go early power Chronos dropping your Elder later, but really I prefer not having to drop a non-farm or non-regen item (e.g. dropping Alch's Loggers Bottle is fine) and also you should consider Enhanced Marchers with earlygame Chronos build, especially in a trilane, as the 10 STR is only useful if you're going heavy farm (I wouldn't ever switch it to AGI, 10 AS and 10 damage is pretty much worthless) and the 24 damage and extra movespeed and phase is really quite helpful if you're earlygaming.

+100 atk speed on a counter based bash is good all game. Nuff said.

The only reason not to get :ElderParasite: is survivability problems.


OK, my previous points and some others in tl;dr form:
1. EP gives as, ls for hp replenishment.
2. WH, (ON NOES WH jokes) is a great carry item. Survivability from armour and good ls.
3. EP is a better item choice than WH in most situations, on CHRONOS. EP bonuses on Chronos just outweighs the bonuses WH gives for Chronos to the point that I will not pick it until after post haste or something.

So, can I now say that I have valid points to denying WH in most situations on Chronos, not just based off biased opinions?

And, I don't really see your points clearly. Care to do a list?

When talking about :WhisperingHelm: you assum that it will be upgraded into a :SymbolOfRage:.

Like I said, and like Blue said in his guide, take :WhisperingHelm: when in need of suvivibility.

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ what he said.

[itwasntmeo_O]

^^ what they said

Also, runed axe isnt a lategame item, its typically an earlygame item used for boosting farm

[ObeseSheep]

^^ what they said

Also, runed axe isnt a lategame item, its typically an earlygame item used for boosting farm

Percent based cleve scales into late game quite well fine sir.

[pwn_U_fast]

Percent based cleve scales into late game quite well fine sir.

unless they get armor enhancing items and/or use proper positioning.

then it does **** late game.

i think what he was trying to say is that 99% of the time it's got at or before the 25 minute mark to increase farm potential and add some damage. if you didn't get it by the 25 minute mark, you need to focus on other items to improve your late game.

[ObeseSheep]

unless they get armor enhancing items and/or use proper positioning.

then it does **** late game.

i think what he was trying to say is that 99% of the time it's got at or before the 25 minute mark to increase farm potential and add some damage. if you didn't get it by the 25 minute mark, you need to focus on other items to improve your late game.

#1: 25 mins is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to late. 20-22 is my latest (and 22 is stretching it).

#2: Your logic about armor aplies to everysingle DPS item in the game besides :HarkonsBlade:, and maybe someother that I can't think of. Point is, when talking about scaling we forget about armor.

[Javu]

25 mins is a stretch but it won't cost you the game

[ObeseSheep]

25 mins is a stretch but it won't cost you the game

But it's very very bad. =(

[Javu]

haha yeah i won't deny that

[pwn_U_fast]

i say 25 minutes, as in that is the latest you should be purchasing it. not right around when you SHOULD have finished it.

but ya, the armor nerf on ra makes it scale a lot worse. and whenever you talk dps, you should consider armor, because it may affect what you should be buying. for instance there are items that scale better even if the team gets armor enhancing items.

like savage mace, because it procs bonus dmg and stops the person from attacking you. shieldbreaker to reduce enemy armor and make you melt opponents (which if you can get this with ep, you will be mush but you will literally melt people), and wingbow which incraeses your effective physical health.

[ObeseSheep]

i say 25 minutes, as in that is the latest you should be purchasing it. not right around when you SHOULD have finished it.

but ya, the armor nerf on ra makes it scale a lot worse. and whenever you talk dps, you should consider armor, because it may affect what you should be buying. for instance there are items that scale better even if the team gets armor enhancing items.

like savage mace, because it procs bonus dmg and stops the person from attacking you. shieldbreaker to reduce enemy armor and make you melt opponents (which if you can get this with ep, you will be mush but you will literally melt people), and wingbow which incraeses your effective physical health.

What I ment it that EVERY dps item in the game is affected by armor not just :RunedAxe:. Some say :Shieldbreaker: is best picked up at 25 mins or earlier because of this.

The reason :RunedAxe: was changed to be affected by armor is because is would be stupid to have a hero farm an armor boosting item and then have his support get smashed by a :RunedAxe: :Riftshards: :chro: there by getting them self killed. /breath. I'm just sayin. Nerf was just, but the fact it wasn't buffed a little to compensate, is not.

PS: Don't get :Shieldbreaker:, ever. :SavageMace: is always better, simply because it's overpowered right now. Also, lifesteal is too important in this metagame of tanky style carry build. Everyones getting :FrostwolfsSkull:/ :SymbolOfRage: / :HackNSlash: and :GeometersBane: to survive longer.

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ as for the shieldbreaker, i have already stated i would go for ep/shrunken head/savage. that's my go to build on chronos.

i was just saying with ep, he would simply melt people, but he'd have little to no survivability.

[DSEMi]

Vindicator is a big counter laner (if enemy of course.)
And also Vindicator will tear him apart lategame with his true damage, and Chronos' low hp. He's a must getting into Chronofield.

[RealTechN9ne]

Vindicator is a big counter laner (if enemy of course.)
And also Vindicator will tear him apart lategame with his true damage, and Chronos' low hp. He's a must getting into Chronofield.
I was randomly browsing some strategy threads when I found this beautiful piece of bullshit.
Vindi kills Chronos lategame? No wait, he TEARS HIM APART?

DotA 6.35 is over, carry Silencer is dead.

EDIT: 1349 PSR and 83% em, I apologize.
How should you know.

[ObeseSheep]

I was randomly browsing some strategy threads when I found this beautiful piece of bullshit.
Vindi kills Chronos lategame? No wait, he TEARS HIM APART?

DotA 6.35 is over, carry Silencer is dead.

EDIT: 1349 PSR and 83% em, I apologize.
How should you know.

Yeah that was funny but :vind: is prob the best counter :chro:. :chro: leaps in, :vind: ults, :chro: dies. GG.

[SilverStars]

Not exactly. It's more Chronos Leaps in and ults, Vindi ults, and Chronos' team either leaves Chronos to die or runs in and basically suicides. It's pretty hard to time an ult so it silences Chronos upon leap, because his ult cast time is relatively short (compared to DotA) and the gap is pretty small, in addition to the fact that you don't know where he'll land and you also have a decent cast time on your ult-silence.

[Javu]

Not exactly. It's more Chronos Leaps in and ults, Vindi ults, and Chronos' team either leaves Chronos to die or runs in and basically suicides. It's pretty hard to time an ult so it silences Chronos upon leap, because his ult cast time is relatively short (compared to DotA) and the gap is pretty small, in addition to the fact that you don't know where he'll land and you also have a decent cast time on your ult-silence.
Yeah but vindi also has a passive that silences you for a short time when you use a spell. Chrono's leaps, gets silenced, vindi ulties, dead chrono. The vindi still has to have a good reaction time though

[Donn]

Yeah but vindi also has a passive that silences you for a short time when you use a spell. Chrono's leaps, gets silenced, vindi ulties, dead chrono. The vindi still has to have a good reaction time though

actually, the passive would only silence chronos if he was under the effect of that 800 radius aura when he casted time leap. If that was the case chronos would be silenced for 3 seconds, yes. If leap was casted outside of the aura though, he would land unsilenced and still be able to ulti your team.

[ObeseSheep]

Not exactly. It's more Chronos Leaps in and ults, Vindi ults, and Chronos' team either leaves Chronos to die or runs in and basically suicides. It's pretty hard to time an ult so it silences Chronos upon leap, because his ult cast time is relatively short (compared to DotA) and the gap is pretty small, in addition to the fact that you don't know where he'll land and you also have a decent cast time on your ult-silence.

You don't get it.


Yeah but vindi also has a passive that silences you for a short time when you use a spell. Chrono's leaps, gets silenced, vindi ulties, dead chrono. The vindi still has to have a good reaction time though

Nether do you.


actually, the passive would only silence chronos if he was under the effect of that 800 radius aura when he casted time leap. If that was the case chronos would be silenced for 3 seconds, yes. If leap was casted outside of the aura though, he would land unsilenced and still be able to ulti your team.

Close.

I'ma go slow.

:chro:<----yeah this guy
Leaps into this guy----->:vind:
:vind: happens to have korean like fingers and presses r before :chro: does
:chro: can't ult
:chro: dies.
Trust me. I've done it.

[Donn]

Close.

I'ma go slow.

:chro:<----yeah this guy
Leaps into this guy----->:vind:
:vind: happens to have korean like fingers and presses r before :chro: does
:chro: can't ult
:chro: dies.
Trust me. I've done it.

i know, im just saying its not as easy to stop chrono's ulti initiation as it would be if that aura affected him P:

afterall, there's a huge difference between a 3 second timeframe to ulti, and less than half a second.

[Theburned]

you guys are all wrong :vind: + invisibility rune = counter :chro:

just stand where he stands and when he leaps in he will be silenced for long enough for your team to disable him to death, you can also blow your ulti after around 2.5-2.7 sec if its needed for him not to ulti and go back to full hp

oh right this tactic requires a non invis team. so they wont try to counter the invis already :D and well its just lulz if you think that a good chronos player will stand within 800 units of vindicator if he can see him, ofc you can use jukespots to get closer, but if they see you its a 4v5 fight which is quickly reduced to a 3v5 after chronos ulti and if your team has disables they should get 1-3 of the last guys alive... and then its gg because you let chronos have a major gold advantage after losing that team fight. (free farming for 2 min yay)

[ObeseSheep]

you guys are all wrong :vind: + invisibility rune = counter :chro:

just stand where he stands and when he leaps in he will be silenced for long enough for your team to disable him to death, you can also blow your ulti after around 2.5-2.7 sec if its needed for him not to ulti and go back to full hp

oh right this tactic requires a non invis team. so they wont try to counter the invis already :D and well its just lulz if you think that a good chronos player will stand within 800 units of vindicator if he can see him, ofc you can use jukespots to get closer, but if they see you its a 4v5 fight which is quickly reduced to a 3v5 after chronos ulti and if your team has disables they should get 1-3 of the last guys alive... and then its gg because you let chronos have a major gold advantage after losing that team fight. (free farming for 2 min yay)

Not really... I good :vind: will keep his eyes glued to the screen, keep his r finger ready, and watch for :chro: to leap in.

IMO :vind: is :chro:s easiest counter. Rapes him early game with harras and then rapes his initiation mid/late game.

[Patchurii]

So new Vindi build I see. Rush Assassin's shroud to counter Chronos?
xD

[ElementUser]

I heard Chronos' bash deals magic damage upon triggering

(which isn't mentioned in the skill description you provided >=O)

[Patchurii]

I heard Chronos' bash deals magic damage upon triggering

(which isn't mentioned in the skill description you provided >=O)

I heard patch changed it to physical.

[ElementUser]

You heard right :(

Stupid patch notes

[SilverStars]

:chro:<----yeah this guy
Leaps into this guy----->:vind:
:vind: happens to have korean like fingers and presses r before :chro: does
:chro: can't ult
:chro: dies.
Trust me. I've done it.

Average reaction time is 0.2
Average Korean reaction time is about half that, say 0.1
Chronofield cast time is 0.2
Vindi ult cast time is 0.3

If ult is hit upon seeing Chronos on screen:
- <0.1s for Chronos to reach destination
- Chronos ults before you
- Chance of ulting randomly even without Chronos intending to ult

[IHitYouHARD]

Average reaction time is 0.2
Average Korean reaction time is about half that, say 0.1
Chronofield cast time is 0.2
Vindi ult cast time is 0.3

If ult is hit upon seeing Chronos on screen:
- <0.1s for Chronos to reach destination
- Chronos ults before you
- Chance of ulting randomly even without Chronos intending to ult

Yo man, I think it's all a little OTT...
Come on be realistic, what about if chronos leaps, you silence he escapes after silence has run out and then ulties you... what then???
then your screwed big time... plus long cd on Vindis ult.. ocuh O.o only the passive silence can save you O.o

[Donn]

Yo man, I think it's all a little OTT...
Come on be realistic, what about if chronos leaps, you silence he escapes after silence has run out and then ulties you... what then???
then your screwed big time... plus long cd on Vindis ult.. ocuh O.o only the passive silence can save you O.o

if 6 seconds isn't enough for you to kill a chronos that's stuck in the middle of your team and cannot cast anything, maybe you should just concede.

[IHitYouHARD]

if 6 seconds isn't enough for you to kill a chronos that's stuck in the middle of your team and cannot cast anything, maybe you should just concede.

Hmm alright, yea I see your point :D
Although a lategame 6 second fight with cronos might not be enough.. O.o
Do items also get unavailable with vindicators ulti??

[Donn]

Hmm alright, yea I see your point :D
Although a lategame 6 second fight with cronos might not be enough.. O.o
Do items also get unavailable with vindicators ulti??

no, the ultimate is strictly a silence, so i suppose if the chronos has some team support and a shrunken head ready, it might still get ugly for your team. That's only if the Chronos is mega-farmed/fed though. In any normal situation 5 of you should be able to kill chronos just fine, and their team would usually be hesitant to help him when they themselves cannot cast spells.

[ObeseSheep]

Average reaction time is 0.2
Average Korean reaction time is about half that, say 0.1
Chronofield cast time is 0.2
Vindi ult cast time is 0.3

If ult is hit upon seeing Chronos on screen:
- <0.1s for Chronos to reach destination
- Chronos ults before you
- Chance of ulting randomly even without Chronos intending to ult

You are forgeting the leap which is quite noticable.


if 6 seconds isn't enough for you to kill a chronos that's stuck in the middle of your team and cannot cast anything, maybe you should just concede.

Nicely done. lol

[pwn_U_fast]

i love how we are arguing about vindi and element randomly comments on magic vs. physical damage on stun procs.

thank you element! :)

yes 6 seconds to kill cronos should be enough. you can always pray that he activated ep before vindi got his silence off. :D

[ObeseSheep]

i love how we are arguing about vindi and element randomly comments on magic vs. physical damage on stun procs.

thank you element! :)

yes 6 seconds to kill cronos should be enough. you can always pray that he activated ep before vindi got his silence off. :D

:vind: ult doesn't perplex. <.<

[TillyToker]

personally, i would never go elder, the lifesteal helps but its the attack speed bonus that is the biggest buff. i would swap that out for a alchemist's bones for the AS and the increased GPM, as far as attack modifiers go, i would go for a harkons blade. since chronos's biggest asset is his attacks while in the bubble this allows his attacks to do more damage. for lifesteal i would just grab a abyssal skull for the passive LS and the increased damage and armor.

[pwn_U_fast]

:vind: ult doesn't perplex. <.<


well i was assuming cronos would not be dumb and activate while he's silenced, i know i would save it for when i can actually do something.

[ObeseSheep]

personally, i would never go elder, the lifesteal helps but its the attack speed bonus that is the biggest buff. i would swap that out for a alchemist's bones for the AS and the increased GPM, as far as attack modifiers go, i would go for a harkons blade. since chronos's biggest asset is his attacks while in the bubble this allows his attacks to do more damage. for lifesteal i would just grab a abyssal skull for the passive LS and the increased damage and armor.

If you read back in this thread I explain why :AlchemistBones: are not good on :chro:.
Your point about :HarkonsBlade: are exactly why :ElderParasite: is taken on :chro: and only on :chro:. Also :HarkonsBlade: has some serious issues and that are to long to explain (i'm too lazy =D ). But one of them is the fact that you are stuck with a poor source of life steal (:AbyssalSkull: ), which is bad on the hero with the worst STR gain in the game.

[pwn_U_fast]

If you read back in this thread I explain why :AlchemistBones: are not good on :chro:.
Your point about :HarkonsBlade: are exactly why :ElderParasite: is taken on :chro: and only on :chro:. Also :HarkonsBlade: has some serious issues and that are to long to explain (i'm too lazy =D ). But one of them is the fact that you are stuck with a poor source of life steal (:AbyssalSkull: ), which is bad on the hero with the worst STR gain in the game.

also his stun procs were changed to physical damage, so adding magic damage and reducing magic damage armor doesn't really help chronos anymore.

in the previous (1.0.9) patch, yes that would have been a little bit more viable, but i still would go with the OP build, ep>Shrunken head>savage mace.

also you shoud read my previous post about how you need ias and increased base damage to survive. it has to do with your damage output being so high that no1 can actually affect you.


The ias for stun procs isn't important when he spheres, it's for ganking, when you catch an opponent all by himself......

it's kind of long, but i think it covers more of the advanced concepts surrounding chronos and the EP.

[Lethe]

It's quite simple, Harkon's scales with the amount of dps you already have. DPS is composed of 3 components, dmg/attack, attacks/second, and armor reduction. The armor reduction point is negligible, as Harkon's turns your attacks into magic damage, and reduces their magic armor by 5. So that is in it's favor. However:

Damage/attack: Chronos typically does not deal alot of damage/attack. Typically by mid-game you have steamboots elder and savage mace.

Attacks/second: This is where alot of Chronos' dps comes from. Elder boosts your attacks/second, and coincidentally your dps, significantly.

Harkon's costs 75 mana/attack. It doesn't care how much damage you already deal/attack, only how many times you attack/second.

What this means is quite simple. Chronos has no way to support Harkon's. Unless he gets a nullstone (which is stupid as shrunken head is already situational, yet when properly bought is one of the best purchases you can make on Chronos) and runed axe, which overall is just a rly bad way of playing Chronos in this current version.

The best users of Harkon's are PM, Scout, tDL and Madman, in that order. In alot of cases it has to do with their build as well. PM is obvious, but the mana regen from runed axe helps complement harkon's on scout, tdl, and madman. Furthermore, tdl and madman are both strong users of nullstone, as it is invaluable when shrunken head has run its course.

[ObeseSheep]

It's quite simple, Harkon's scales with the amount of dps you already have. DPS is composed of 3 components, dmg/attack, attacks/second, and armor reduction. The armor reduction point is negligible, as Harkon's turns your attacks into magic damage, and reduces their magic armor by 5. So that is in it's favor. However:

Damage/attack: Chronos typically does not deal alot of damage/attack. Typically by mid-game you have steamboots elder and savage mace.

Attacks/second: This is where alot of Chronos' dps comes from. Elder boosts your attacks/second, and coincidentally your dps, significantly.

Harkon's costs 75 mana/attack. It doesn't care how much damage you already deal/attack, only how many times you attack/second.

What this means is quite simple. Chronos has no way to support Harkon's. Unless he gets a nullstone (which is stupid as shrunken head is already situational, yet when properly bought is one of the best purchases you can make on Chronos) and runed axe, which overall is just a rly bad way of playing Chronos in this current version.

The best users of Harkon's are PM, Scout, tDL and Madman, in that order. In alot of cases it has to do with their build as well. PM is obvious, but the mana regen from runed axe helps complement harkon's on scout, tdl, and madman. Furthermore, tdl and madman are both strong users of nullstone, as it is invaluable when shrunken head has run its course.

You and I both know that :HarkonsBlade: is not a good DPS item right now. It doesn't give option to an atk mod which in this meta game is crutial. It's the same deal with :Shieldbreaker:.

[TillyToker]

If you read back in this thread I explain why :AlchemistBones: are not good on :chro:.
Your point about :HarkonsBlade: are exactly why :ElderParasite: is taken on :chro: and only on :chro:. Also :HarkonsBlade: has some serious issues and that are to long to explain (i'm too lazy =D ). But one of them is the fact that you are stuck with a poor source of life steal (:AbyssalSkull: ), which is bad on the hero with the worst STR gain in the game.

i wouldnt say that abyssal is a bad source of LS it has a 15% as opposed to elders 17% when you factor in the extra damage it really pretty evenly matches up to EP's survivability. You are correct about Chronos' low STR gain, but that is the exact reason why i choose abyssal over elder, it gives you bonus armor, lifesteal and extra damage. plus, with crazed it increases the damage taken by 20% making a squishy carry even squishier. even with the bubble it takes away 5-6 secs of that squish but i always find myself stuck in tricky situations after the bubble expires. you might have a point about harkons though, but even then you could go shieldbreaker as a much more positive attack modifier.
besides, when you use abyssal skull youre pretty much getting 2 active attack modifiers, that fact alone should outweigh any other option. id rather have more than less.

heres one thing i just thought of as an experiment. if you went elder and then got a void talisman to increase his survivability would that work? itd certainly make up for the +20% taken damage.

[Donn]

no way. You're disarmed when Void is activated.

[Lethe]

An interesting thing about Harkon's is that it counters void talisman hard, an item that is often gotten on support heroes to save themselves from scary dps heroes. If you use void talisman at the wrong time against a madman/scout/tdl you will die in less then 2 seconds.

[SilverStars]

You are forgeting the leap which is quite noticable.


Average reaction time is 0.2
Average Korean reaction time is about half that, say 0.1
Chronofield cast time is 0.2
Vindi ult cast time is 0.3

If ult is hit upon seeing Chronos on screen:
- <0.1s for Chronos to reach destination
- Chronos ults before you
- Chance of ulting randomly even without Chronos intending to ult

What did you think I was talking about, Chronos walking up to your team?

Anyway, I haven't even factored in latency yet, which is effective x2 because of transferral to computer and transferral back.

[TillyToker]

no way. You're disarmed when Void is activated.

youre obviously a dumbass. it doesnt disarm you, it lowers your magic armor. but if like the guide says you go shrunken and elder, and then if you throw a void talisman into that mix you get near invuln.

[ElementUser]

It disarms you

Sigh

Also if you try activating VT during magic immunity you'll use the CD+mana but won't be physically immune. If you use it and THEN use magic immunity, magic immunity overrides it.

Learn mechanics before insulting other people please thanks

[ObeseSheep]

no way. You're disarmed when Void is activated.


youre obviously a dumbass. it doesnt disarm you, it lowers your magic armor. but if like the guide says you go shrunken and elder, and then if you throw a void talisman into that mix you get near invuln.

... Ummm... Yeah. ANYWAY


i wouldnt say that abyssal is a bad source of LS it has a 15% as opposed to elders 17% when you factor in the extra damage it really pretty evenly matches up to EP's survivability. You are correct about Chronos' low STR gain, but that is the exact reason why i choose abyssal over elder, it gives you bonus armor, lifesteal and extra damage. plus, with crazed it increases the damage taken by 20% making a squishy carry even squishier. even with the bubble it takes away 5-6 secs of that squish but i always find myself stuck in tricky situations after the bubble expires. you might have a point about harkons though, but even then you could go shieldbreaker as a much more positive attack modifier.
besides, when you use abyssal skull youre pretty much getting 2 active attack modifiers, that fact alone should outweigh any other option. id rather have more than less.

heres one thing i just thought of as an experiment. if you went elder and then got a void talisman to increase his survivability would that work? itd certainly make up for the +20% taken damage.

You don't need :Shieldbreaker:. If you don't want :ElderParasite: then get :SymbolOfRage:. I don't have to explain why :SymbolOfRage:/:ElderParasite: :SavageMace: is 1337 times better then :AbyssalSkull: :Shieldbreaker: do I?

Hint: Savage Mace is op!!! COUGH COUGH

[XeroTheta]

Unless he gets a nullstone (which is stupid as shrunken head is already situational, yet when properly bought is one of the best purchases you can make on Chronos) and runed axe, which overall is just a rly bad way of playing Chronos in this current version.

Are you saying that combo is bad, or are you saying that Runed axe is a poor choice on him? If so, why is Runed axe bad now? I thought it was necessary to improve his farm?

[Lethe]

Are you saying that combo is bad, or are you saying that Runed axe is a poor choice on him? If so, why is Runed axe bad now? I thought it was necessary to improve his farm?

I'm saying both. The runed axe nullstone harkon's combo costs alot of gold to begin with. Next, the more dps modifiers a hero has, the more useful runed axe is on that hero. Chronos has a 2.7 agi gain, and nothing else. He uses runed axe far less effectively then scout, madman, sb, mb, or tdl. Not getting runed axe simply means you have to farm smarter, that's all.

The classic steamboots elder parasite savage mace combo is easily the best build out there. In optimal conditions you can finish it between 30-35 mins, maybe less, and by that point you don't need another farming tool, creep waves will still die fast, as will neutrals, as will heroes.

Runed axe is only good on Chronos if you can get it fast, we're talking like a 19 min runed axe steamboots. Pretty hard for anyone to realistically do unless they have complete freefarm.

[XeroTheta]

I'm saying both. The runed axe nullstone harkon's combo costs alot of gold to begin with. Next, the more dps modifiers a hero has, the more useful runed axe is on that hero. Chronos has a 2.7 agi gain, and nothing else. He uses runed axe far less effectively then scout, madman, sb, mb, or tdl. Not getting runed axe simply means you have to farm smarter, that's all.

The classic steamboots elder parasite savage mace combo is easily the best build out there. In optimal conditions you can finish it between 30-35 mins, maybe less, and by that point you don't need another farming tool, creep waves will still die fast, as will neutrals, as will heroes.

Runed axe is only good on Chronos if you can get it fast, we're talking like a 19 min runed axe steamboots. Pretty hard for anyone to realistically do unless they have complete freefarm.

Fair enough, my experience is in pubs so I usually went with steamboots, runed axe, elder parasite, and then savage mace. That worked pretty well. It sounds like steamboots, ep, and savage mace will produce more gold through hero kills in the end. I would struggle with mana regen without the manatube though. Once I burn my leap + bubble, mana is usually gone.

[ObeseSheep]

I'm saying both. The runed axe nullstone harkon's combo costs alot of gold to begin with. Next, the more dps modifiers a hero has, the more useful runed axe is on that hero. Chronos has a 2.7 agi gain, and nothing else. He uses runed axe far less effectively then scout, madman, sb, mb, or tdl. Not getting runed axe simply means you have to farm smarter, that's all.

The classic steamboots elder parasite savage mace combo is easily the best build out there. In optimal conditions you can finish it between 30-35 mins, maybe less, and by that point you don't need another farming tool, creep waves will still die fast, as will neutrals, as will heroes.

Runed axe is only good on Chronos if you can get it fast, we're talking like a 19 min runed axe steamboots. Pretty hard for anyone to realistically do unless they have complete freefarm.

I've had :Steamboots: :RunedAxe: at 20 mins and then finished :ElderParasite: :SavageMace: by the 27-30 min mark. But you are right. That's hard to do. To be honest, :RunedAxe: really needs a buff.

[pwn_U_fast]

i wouldnt say that abyssal is a bad source of LS it has a 15% as opposed to elders 17% when you factor in the extra damage it really pretty evenly matches up to EP's survivability. You are correct about Chronos' low STR gain, but that is the exact reason why i choose abyssal over elder, it gives you bonus armor, lifesteal and extra damage. plus, with crazed it increases the damage taken by 20% making a squishy carry even squishier. even with the bubble it takes away 5-6 secs of that squish but i always find myself stuck in tricky situations after the bubble expires. you might have a point about harkons though, but even then you could go shieldbreaker as a much more positive attack modifier.
besides, when you use abyssal skull youre pretty much getting 2 active attack modifiers, that fact alone should outweigh any other option. id rather have more than less.

No. Survivability on cronos has nothing to do with his armor. Yes a little armor will help, but his Effective HP is so low that armor doesn't really matter. His survivability is completely reliant on outputting more damage to increase life returned from LS, via ATTACK SPEED. This is what the EP is for on Chronos, and to aid in farming. The IAS bonus from EP is exactly what makes it 10x more powerful than abyssal on Chronos. Also, Shieldbreaker attack modifier is a waste on Chronos, the EP LS, or SoR are much better attack modifiers on Chronos. You would have been better off going EP/Savage Mace which dishes out relatively high DPS, ministun procs, and gives IAS, which all synergize with Chronos and make him a DPS rape machine. I'd even say get a snake's bracelet/Wingbow instead over shieldbreaker with chronos. It synergizes decently with Chronos, and gives more damage, and IAS for stun procs and increased LS, not too mention increases Effective Physical Health.


heres one thing i just thought of as an experiment. if you went elder and then got a void talisman to increase his survivability would that work? itd certainly make up for the +20% taken damage.

No. Disarm = bad on carries. Never void talisman on a DPS carry, EVER.

DPS is composed of 3 components, dmg/attack, attacks/second, and armor reduction. The armor reduction point is negligible, as Harkon's turns your attacks into magic damage, and reduces their magic armor by 5. So that is in it's favor. However:

Damage/attack: Chronos typically does not deal alot of damage/attack. Typically by mid-game you have steamboots elder and savage mace.

Attacks/second: This is where alot of Chronos' dps comes from. Elder boosts your attacks/second, and coincidentally your dps, significantly.


Exactly. As I've stated before.

Chronos has a 2.7 agi gain, and nothing else. He uses runed axe far less effectively then scout, madman, sb, mb, or tdl. Not getting runed axe simply means you have to farm smarter, that's all.

The classic steamboots elder parasite savage mace combo is easily the best build out there. In optimal conditions you can finish it between 30-35 mins, maybe less, and by that point you don't need another farming tool, creep waves will still die fast, as will neutrals, as will heroes.

Runed axe is only good on Chronos if you can get it fast, we're talking like a 19 min runed axe steamboots. Pretty hard for anyone to realistically do unless they have complete freefarm.

Yes, can be tested for validity too. If you do not get the RA with Chronos well before the 20 minute mark, don't get it. As said before, this is damm near impossibel to do, so just don't waste you're time at all. You will not make up for the gold you spent on that item and it doesn't synergize with his skills well or make his team fighting presence viable.


Fair enough, my experience is in pubs so I usually went with steamboots, runed axe, elder parasite, and then savage mace. That worked pretty well. It sounds like steamboots, ep, and savage mace will produce more gold through hero kills in the end. I would struggle with mana regen without the manatube though. Once I burn my leap + bubble, mana is usually gone.
Get a soulscream ring or two. You'd be suprised how much those add to Chronos early/mid game.

-The +6 agility adds to his damage and slightly to his armor.
-The +3 strength gives a little hp and survivability.
-The +3 int increases your mana pool, and allows for more consequitive casting.

Especially in pubs, a couple of those soulscreams adds a lot to your ability to assist in team fights and ganking between the levels of 6-11. They are also very very cheap.

Another consideration is the mana/power supply. Although he is not a caster, the +100/150 to mana after it's maxed on charges allows for another Time Warp or EP activation if necessary.


I've had :Steamboots: :RunedAxe: at 20 mins and then finished :ElderParasite: :SavageMace: by the 27-30 min mark. But you are right. That's hard to do. To be honest, :RunedAxe: really needs a buff.

Yes, RA needs a buff. It's sole purpose now is for Farming, and Pubstomping people who don't know how to position. The only hero the RA is even close to being considered core on (in the competitive scene) is TDL, and she is rarely seen as a competitive hero anyway. Swift uses it a lot, because the crit stacks. This is easily countered with armor items, and good positioning.


Are you saying that combo is bad, or are you saying that Runed axe is a poor choice on him? If so, why is Runed axe bad now? I thought it was necessary to improve his farm?

In the end RA is POS and SAVAGE MACE is OP.

[KalurO]

Close.

I'ma go slow.

:chro:<----yeah this guy
Leaps into this guy----->:vind:
:vind: happens to have korean like fingers and presses r before :chro: does
:chro: can't ult
:chro: dies.
Trust me. I've done it.

shift queueing chronos' blink + ult leaves no timeframe for vindicator to do anything.

[SilverStars]

shift queueing chronos' blink + ult leaves no timeframe for vindicator to do anything.

You're right, Vindicator can't do anything (other than what I said before, getting out of the way fast and ulting to prevent secondary initiation), but you don't need to shift queue, the longer cast time on Vindi's ult as compared to Chronos' is enough.

Also, "I like Runed Axe" isn't a reason to warrant a buff. Ever heard of an item called "Shieldbreaker"? Yeah.

[Javu]

If your good at last hitting and positioning yourself in lane as a carry and have a really good babysitter laning with you, as well as really strong team support, it is not very hard to get runed axe around the 20 minute mark. If your support also stacked the jungle creeps for you and ancient creeps, once you get you RA by the 30 minute mark you will have EP, steamboots and savage mace, aswell as your RA. That is why it is so good on him. You can go the straight steamboots, EP savage mace build, but if you could add a +65 dmg, +6 HP regen, +150% mana regen and splash damage item to that build in the same amount of time, why wouldn't you? The only problem is, in the current metagame its very, very hard to have the team coordination required to pull this off. A chronos farming a RA is a liability to your team, that's why RA is generally best overlooked at the moment. Trying to farm a RA is definately a no-no in pubs, you just can't expect your team to know how to support you properly. However, the point still stands that if done right, RA still remains the best item on chronos if you can gdo it right

[ObeseSheep]

If your good at last hitting and positioning yourself in lane as a carry and have a really good babysitter laning with you, as well as really strong team support, it is not very hard to get runed axe around the 20 minute mark. If your support also stacked the jungle creeps for you and ancient creeps, once you get you RA by the 30 minute mark you will have EP, steamboots and savage mace, aswell as your RA. That is why it is so good on him. You can go the straight steamboots, EP savage mace build, but if you could add a +65 dmg, +6 HP regen, +150% mana regen and splash damage item to that build in the same amount of time, why wouldn't you? The only problem is, in the current metagame its very, very hard to have the team coordination required to pull this off. A chronos farming a RA is a liability to your team, that's why RA is generally best overlooked at the moment. Trying to farm a RA is definately a no-no in pubs, you just can't expect your team to know how to support you properly. However, the point still stands that if done right, RA still remains the best item on chronos if you can gdo it right

Yeah :RunedAxe: needs to be a safer pick up. It needs to be a good DPS item choice for melees. Not just farm tool for AGI hard carries under the correct settings. >.<
But enough about item balance. This is a :chro: guide.

I've been trying out :WhisperingHelm: on :chro:. It's A LOT better on :chro: then a gave it credit for. Blue you should try it out sometime.
We are forgeting that:
-:SymbolOfRage: is still the sexiest life steal and the STR given is just magical for :chro:s biggest issue, mid-late game HP (at lvl 25 a :chro: with :SymbolOfRage: :ShrunkenHead: has 2.5 k HP).
-Stacking anchients is sexy

[Lethe]

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=7347573

This is a game I played over a month ago, by this time I was already convinced that runed axe is rarely worth it on Chronos. The enemy team had an extremely powerful early game team with incredible gank potential. We almost lost, but a shrunken head farmed in the nick of time turns the tides of the game and we end up winning.

13-5-13 for a 47 min game, yet I managed 380 gpm which was enough for steamboots, elder parasite, savage mace, shrunken head, and wingbow, in that order. You really, really do not need runed axe on Chronos.

[SilverStars]

I agree, Runed Axe is more of an occasional item on Chronos, but I've yet to figure out why. For some reason I can dominate lategame pretty easily without Runed Axe on Chronos, yet it's pretty much impossible on Swiftblade. What's the difference between these two that Runed Axe is so much more necessary on Swiftblade?

And lol, MQ Doombringer

[Lethe]

A simple concept, dps modifiers. The more a hero has, the more useful runed axe is on that hero.

Chronos has a 2.7 agi gain. CoA has no synergy with runed axe.

SB has a slightly higher (2.8) agi gain, as well as a 1.36x modifier from his crit.

Madman has a 2.8 agi gain, 1.28 x modifier from crit, and his ult.

tDL has a 3.1 agi gain, 75 AS modifier from CS, and 110% base damage from DB, not to mention CS synergy.

Scout has 3.1 agi gain, disarm (1.25x modifier) and flurry.

MB has a 2.8 agi gain, which isn't much better then Chronos...but wait, he has a 1.45 BAT. It makes a huge difference.

Basically, it looks like this, outside of skills that synergize well with RA (charging strikes, flurry), the more dps you can put on a target, the more useful RA is for farming. Because of the way agi scales, it is only natural that the best RA users are those with high agi gain. I'm certain you could even go RA on NH and have decent success, if the game dragged on you would notice a substantial boost in your gpm. I'm not saying you should go RA on NH, as there are other, much safer items due to his style of carrying, I'm just proving a point. I am damn certain you could go runed axe and spam blood crazy on yourself as BH to farm, the 2.6 agi gain + 80% base damage, again, would cause your gpm to skyrocket. Again, not practical, but the idea is there. The more damage you can put on a static target, the more effective RA is for farming. That is why during late-game, even poor RA users like, say, Pest, can plow through creeps with RA. They are dealing significant damage due to levels by that time.

Also, the idea that Charging strikes and Flurry belong on two heroes with extremely high agi gains/level is completely coincidental.

[Jozuya]

adding Voodoo jester to the Chronosfield combos would be nice and they have great synergy. Kthx!

[ObeseSheep]

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=7347573

This is a game I played over a month ago, by this time I was already convinced that runed axe is rarely worth it on Chronos. The enemy team had an extremely powerful early game team with incredible gank potential. We almost lost, but a shrunken head farmed in the nick of time turns the tides of the game and we end up winning.

13-5-13 for a 47 min game, yet I managed 380 gpm which was enough for steamboots, elder parasite, savage mace, shrunken head, and wingbow, in that order. You really, really do not need runed axe on Chronos.

That replay REALLY doesn't do justice to your argument. You did a poor job of farming and really overplayed in many cases. But most importantly it doesn't show why :RunedAxe: would have been a poor pick up. Sure your lane was tough but the only reason you were dieing a lot was because of overplay. Your team had your side of the map under control for most of the game and you had MANY opertunities to free farm.
Most of the argruments aganst :RunedAxe: are that the hero can do fine without it. Yes you can do fine, but I can do better.


I agree, Runed Axe is more of an occasional item on Chronos, but I've yet to figure out why. For some reason I can dominate lategame pretty easily without Runed Axe on Chronos, yet it's pretty much impossible on Swiftblade. What's the difference between these two that Runed Axe is so much more necessary on Swiftblade?

And lol, MQ Doombringer

The reason most people like to get :RunedAxe: is because they like to play him as a mid game ganker and late game carry. :RunedAxe: gives them everything to play him this way (mana+dmg+farm power). :swif: actually is the worst hard carry in the game. So bad that I would say that he more a carry like :souls: or :arac: are (good early game power, good mid game power, good late game power). Hard carries being: poor early game power, good mid game power, RAPE-GOOD-LORD-HE'S-RAPIN'-ME-HALP late game power


adding Voodoo jester to the Chronosfield combos would be nice and they have great synergy. Kthx!

Not to mention a very nice support hero too.

[pwn_U_fast]

im suprised no one has commented on the CoA agi steal nerf. pretty lame.

[Patchurii]

im suprised no one has commented on the CoA agi steal nerf. pretty lame.
I don't think the agi steal was all to useful. The bash is what really pwnz people.

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ haven't used since. i just saw it in the patch notes. i suspect the steal wasn't that important, but it did have slight increases to his armor and damage when in effect (right?) and it's not like it was OP or anything so i just can't figure out why it was removed.

btw. nice sig lol. and thanks for the props.

[Patchurii]

xD no problem. The agi steal did give him armor and stuff, but it was really underwhelming if it was by itself. The bash is still the thing that helps makes him a really good carry.

[ObeseSheep]

I actually posted a complaint there. They didn't care. They just didn't want :chro: banned anymore.

[pwn_U_fast]

so they took off the agi steal so he wouldnt get banned so much?

its not really even a nerf in my book; its more like a 'minor tweak'.

[ObeseSheep]

so they took off the agi steal so he wouldnt get banned so much?

its not really even a nerf in my book; its more like a 'minor tweak'.

I posted this
Lets talk about this guy for a second----> :chro:

I'm concerned simply because I think S2 is going the wrong way with this hero (nerfing his only scaling skill) and I'm seeing a lot complaints about :chro: being op, and then a ton of complaints of how he sucks more then in DotA.
Most of op complaints are about his rewind and his early game "power".

I have a problem with him too. If :chro: didn't have rewind (or if it got nerfed) he would would be garbage simply because he has the worst str gain in the game. He is a high risk-high reward hero. From his initiation, to his suvivibility.

What I'm getting at is that there is a simple way to fix this unrelibile survivibility and to nerf his early game power at the same time.
Here are my sugestions:
#1: Remove rewind and replace it with the agility steal from his bash (and of course, remove the agi steal from the bash).
#2: Increase his str gain to compensate.

Hopefully this will remove all those threads about rewind being op, make him more of a reliable (and soild) hero, and nerf his early game power.

DISCUSS
:blac:

THERE IS A REASON I POSTED HERE
I DON'T THINK I WANT TO RELEASE THE :krak: AND TELL EVERYONE IN THE BALANCE OR SUGGESTIONS ABOUT THE AGI STEAL NERF COUGH COUGH

[pwn_U_fast]

ahhh good points. and i like what you are getting at. thats not what the patch implemented though. they just took off the agi steal. i dont think they changed any of his stats, unless i read it wrong.

[Javu]

as much as rewind is an absolute pain in the **** and one of the reasons chronos is such a strong hero at the moment, completely removing it would make chronos so horrible I'd rather have warbeast as my carry. I think taking out the rng aspect of it and making it similar to nullstone would probably be a better way of balancing him. Then when witch ganks him he can just use his mana drain to blow the cd on rewind and then safely land his ultimate

[ObeseSheep]

as much as rewind is an absolute pain in the **** and one of the reasons chronos is such a strong hero at the moment, completely removing it would make chronos so horrible I'd rather have warbeast as my carry. I think taking out the rng aspect of it and making it similar to nullstone would probably be a better way of balancing him. Then when witch ganks him he can just use his mana drain to blow the cd on rewind and then safely land his ultimate

That's why I wanted to increase his STR gain so he would both be a more consistent hero and nerf his early power.

[Lethe]

^ This doesn't even make sense, the skill build for Chronos is completely different then the skill build for FV. For Chronos, you max out leap by 7, and bash by 9. For Fv, you max out backtrack first with one level of leap, then finish bash, then finish leap last.

[ObeseSheep]

^ This doesn't even make sense, the skill build for Chronos is completely different then the skill build for FV. For Chronos, you max out leap by 7, and bash by 9. For Fv, you max out backtrack first with one level of leap, then finish bash, then finish leap last.

Does FVs leap have the same slow at all lvls?

I don't know why everyone doesn't get 1 lvl of rewind before maxing out the bash. At lvl 1 it's 15%. It's really good to pick up at lvl 2 and then continue to max out leap and bash.

[SNNZ]

:RunedAxe::ElderParasite::SymbolOfRage:

[ObeseSheep]

:RunedAxe::ElderParasite::SymbolOfRage:

:glac: :ElderParasite: :ChargedHammer: :ChargedHammer: :ChargedHammer: :ChargedHammer: :ChargedHammer:

[SilverStars]

Does FVs leap have the same slow at all lvls?

I don't know why everyone doesn't get 1 lvl of rewind before maxing out the bash. At lvl 1 it's 15%. It's really good to pick up at lvl 2 and then continue to max out leap and bash.

1. No, but you still don't max it out because he isn't the earlygame semi-ganker Chronos is.

2. No, I'm pretty sure at level 1 it's 10%, and typical Chronos build should be one with Curse while Time Leap and Rewind take priority. You never max your bash first, especially since now it's charge-based and you can calculate it for ganks. i.e. Leap-Bash-Leap-Rewind-Leap-Chronofield-Leap-Rewind-Rewind-Rewind

[Patchurii]

I guess I'm the lone dissenter who fancies Leap-Bash-Rewind-Rewind-Rewind-Ult-Rewind-Bash-Bash-Bash-Ult-Leap.
That plus I build Whispering Helm+Firebrand instead of Elder Parasite.

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ that build is situational, but i played with a pretty good chronos in a 4v5 a day or two ago (we were the 4), and we dominated because he got ep early. we were able to push lanes 4v5 and isolate 2-3 of their heroes in a semi-gank/push fashion. We were also god awful early, and my lane fed top, while cronos chipper fed bot, then chipper dced. we were literally 0-11, and an almost for sure loss. The cronos initation/semi carry was all we needed. and pulled a come back, i think we won at like 27-24 via hellbourne concede.

[polynom]

Lordi is right Thunderclaw is a really good item on chronos.

BUT i only buy Thunderclaw IF ive a ****ed up farm if ive a good farm i buy runed axe and then Thunderclaw.

[Mattie42]

Geo's Bane an item to stay away from? Haha, I'm sorry. It significantly increases survivability on Chronos, for so many reasons (bigger hp pool, debuff, illusion block, ...). And you call it an item "to stay away from". You could debate wether or not Geo's Bane is core or not, but it sure as hell isn't an item to stay away from with Chronos.

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ you can get better raw dps items that synergize with elder and make you more survivable. ie - wingbow. much better AS, increased armor from agi, more effective physical HP, more life stolen per hit. that combined with shrunken and ep makes you pretty damn hard to kill. instagibbers and stunners cant mess with you, and anyone who tries to autoattack you to death is going to be in big pain.

although geo's isn't bad, it's probably labeled as an item to stay away from because it doesn't fit his role well.

he doesn'e need the MS, the stats are nice, but you can get stats in other items that are more beneficial. the debuff is good, but a shrunken head does very similar, gives you the str stats for survivability, and active magic immunity.

i just think there are better choices than geos.

[Mattie42]

Taking Shrunken into account, agreed. But don't forget a level 25 Chronos with just dps items and steamboots on str still only has ~1700 hp, which is very very squishy.

[Javu]

I'm personally not a fan of getting geo's on any melee hero at all. The illusions not only get in your way, but have melee range, meaning they get blocked by creeps and can be destroyed by range heroes before they even do any damage

[pwn_U_fast]

Taking Shrunken into account, agreed. But don't forget a level 25 Chronos with just dps items and steamboots on str still only has ~1700 hp, which is very very squishy.

that is true. but if you are farmed level 25 and have wingbow - the combination of rewind and 30$ chance to miss from wingbow makes your effective physical hp like 4000-5000. plus an active ability for magic immunity (we aren't too concerned about magic armor with this build). plus 30% LS on about at least 200 damage per strike.

not very squishy.

the only real threats are instagibbers when you activate elder. but thats what the shrunken is for.

[ObeseSheep]

that is true. but if you are farmed level 25 and have wingbow - the combination of rewind and 30$ chance to miss from wingbow makes your effective physical hp like 4000-5000. plus an active ability for magic immunity (we aren't too concerned about magic armor with this build). plus 30% LS on about at least 200 damage per strike.

not very squishy.

the only real threats are instagibbers when you activate elder. but thats what the shrunken is for.

Have you ever tried this?
:Steamboots: :RunedAxe:/:Nullstone: :WhisperingHelm: :SavageMace: :SymbolOfRage: :Wingbow: and :ShrunkenHead: at anypoint needed.
It's funny. 2.5/.3 k HP, rewind, evasion, rewind + evasion, life steal, null, and magic immunity. Sure you do less but you could easily sub :Nullstone: for :RunedAxe: and atk :ShrunkenHead:s counters, like :dead:, in the bubble.
You don't die. =D

I want someone to do the mathcraft for me on :Wingbow: VS :Riftshards: but this time taking into an account bash procs.

:GeometersBane: is not very good on :chro: but because it's OP it's still good. So it's good but not THAT good. This aplies to melees in general. The fact that illutions don't have unit walking for the original sucks for melees.

I'm starting to see why :ElderParasite: is only MODERATELY good on :chro:. In this meta or tanky style carries, :chro: has a hard time dealing with early game power and later game initiation. :ShrunkenHead: does help with that but:
#1 People never seem to pick it up soon enough or at all (bubble /= invisibility).
#2 With :ShrunkenHead: he only has 1600ish life. At lvl 25, that is VERY bad for a carry.

Also, +100 atk speed doesn't make :chro: a good early game hero. So just focus on farming. Gank when they are close and focus on initiation first and carrying second. That is how :chro: should be played. I'm not saying :ElderParasite: is bad on :chro:, I'm just saying it's not as good as people think.

[Mattie42]

I think Elder Parasite is only good for quick early-midgame ganks, but it's a dangerous choice. The 20% dmg taken won't be generous to your health pool when getting couter attacked. Personally, on pubs, I almost always take EP as attack modifier. More professionally, Whispering Helmet/Symbol of Rage is off course the way to go, as goes for all lifesteal favoured heroes.

[pwn_U_fast]

Have you ever tried this?
:Steamboots: :RunedAxe:/:Nullstone: :WhisperingHelm: :SavageMace: :SymbolOfRage: :Wingbow: and :ShrunkenHead: at anypoint needed.

yes.

it creates a much better 'late-game' build, and if you're purely ricing works dandy.

i usually don't play that way and gank more come mid game. the ep works wonders for that.

the end result of these two builds is very similar. you need to be able to output more damage and steal back life faster than you take it. that build would sufficiently do the same thing, however, early game your AS is a lot lower so you have less stun procs. Late game however, you probably can't be killed because of SoR and the other item bonuses.

i also don't know if i've ever seen a game where someone has completed all those items, so my guess is they would either have something like this:

:Steamboots: :RunedAxe:/:Nullstone::SavageMace: :SymbolOfRage: and :ShrunkenHead:

or

:Steamboots: :RunedAxe:/:Nullstone: :SavageMace: :SymbolOfRage: :Wingbow:

either way, your AS, DMG, and Effective HP should be high enough to survive just about anything late gamem, but your mid to early game presence is almost non-existence.

this build: :Steamboots: :ElderParasite::SavageMace: :ShrunkenHead: :Wingbow:/:Riftshards:

has a very similar effect, but the elder helps a little more with early game, and your survability late game is a little bit weaker

[ObeseSheep]

yes.

it creates a much better 'late-game' build, and if you're purely ricing works dandy.

i usually don't play that way and gank more come mid game. the ep works wonders for that.

the end result of these two builds is very similar. you need to be able to output more damage and steal back life faster than you take it. that build would sufficiently do the same thing, however, early game your AS is a lot lower so you have less stun procs. Late game however, you probably can't be killed because of SoR and the other item bonuses.

i also don't know if i've ever seen a game where someone has completed all those items, so my guess is they would either have something like this:

:Steamboots: :RunedAxe:/:Nullstone::SavageMace: :SymbolOfRage: and :ShrunkenHead:

or

:Steamboots: :RunedAxe:/:Nullstone: :SavageMace: :SymbolOfRage: :Wingbow:

either way, your AS, DMG, and Effective HP should be high enough to survive just about anything late gamem, but your mid to early game presence is almost non-existence.

this build: :Steamboots: :ElderParasite::SavageMace: :ShrunkenHead: :Wingbow:/:Riftshards:

has a very similar effect, but the elder helps a little more with early game, and your survability late game is a little bit weaker

"your survability late game is a little bit weaker"
A bit is a very big understatement.

With that build you will have 1700ish HP, +20% dmg taken (so that's like 1400ish HP), and low lifesteal.
Going :SymbolOfRage: will make you have 2.2k HP, with MASSIVE lifesteal.
Yeah. A bit it an understatement.

Choosing your life steal depends on what skill you want to shine.
Bash or Rewind.
I prefer rewind simply because in this meta of tanky carries you are going to get your dick handed to you.

[Vegetto]

Chronos is one of the few carries i actually enjoy playing, mainly coz its fairly easy to do well with him.

However in this guide I'm unsure about the item build path. Meaning i don't know what to build first.

Would steamboots > runed > EP be the best path?

[Mattie42]

Vegetto,

Pick up 1x Iron Buckler, 1x Logger's Hatchet, 3x Runes of the Blight as start items.

Then in the outpost you buy:

(- 2x Duck Boots when having a difficult lane)
- 1x Lifetube
- 1x Marchers
- 1x Gloves of the Swift
- 1x Hungry Spirit
- 1x Helm of the Victim

In the meanwhile when mid-game approaches you make sure you get:

- 1x Bolstering Armband
- 1x Manatube

Now you have your Steamboots, Sustainer and Whispering Helm as core items.

Next items you want are:

- Runed Axe (upgraded Sustainer)
- Savage Mace
- Symbol of Rage (upgraded Whispering Helm)
- Riftshards (up to level 4)
- Wingbow

The order of the last 4 items is not really that important. Runed Axe gets taken first though, because it further improves your ability to farm more easily.

I should forget about Elder Parasite if I were you, since it makes you very vulnerable (20% damage taken).

[pwn_U_fast]

I should forget about Elder Parasite if I were you, since it makes you very vulnerable (20% damage taken).

That depends, if you can use the elder to enhance your hero, then by all means choose this item over whispering helm. it will make you more effective earlier in the game.

if you find yourself activating it and dying in two seconds, stick with whispering helm.

[Mattie42]

That depends, if you can use the elder to enhance your hero, then by all means choose this item over whispering helm. it will make you more effective earlier in the game.

if you find yourself activating it and dying in two seconds, stick with whispering helm.

It depends on what? A level 25 Chronos still has only ~1700 hp because, besides Steamboots, your main focus should be on dps items. Then explain to me how it could depend on the situation? He will be squishy in any case. Which means I won't recommend Elder Parasite in any case. Maybe in a 2v2 or 3v3 game.

[pwn_U_fast]

It depends on what?

The users ability to use EP effectively. That is all.

95% of the time, Steambots>EP>BKB/Savage Mace>SavageMace/BKB is a better build in the current meta. cheaper, low mana consumption, many reasons if stated in about 20 different posts on this thread.

However, if the player lacks the ability to decide appropriately when to activate ep, then its not a very good build.

For instance, if Chronos is n00b, and ults and traps four heroes, say madman, pebbles, fa, and hag, but witch slayer is outside of the bubble, then chronos is going to get instagibbed and is a tool.

however, if instead he's not noob (or his teammates can make up for his n00bness by disabling witch), and traps pebbles, madman, witch, then ep and the above build will likely destory 2 or three of those heroes in the 6-8 seconds his ult is up.

basically if u Fuk up, you are banking on your team to pick up your slack. in this case, that is a HUGE burden, as Chronos can DPS like crazy.

[Mattie42]

I still don't think EP/BKB is the way to play Chronos. If you focus on dps items you will get at least 1 kill with a good placed Chronosfere, no need to take the 20% dmg taken risk.

Know why even more? EP stays active 12 seconds, your chronosfere is {3,4,5} or {4,5,6} (with SotM) seconds active. So in the best case, you still have 6-7 seconds after the Chronosfere where you take 20% damage extra.

It always makes me laugh how I see an EP'd Chronos instagib himself on my Barbed Armor.

[TheJoo]

I like going:
:RunedAxe::Steamboots::GeometersBane:( :ShrunkenHead: ):SavageMace::Riftshards::Wingbow:
I really don't like picking up EP. it leaves you terribly squishy, and i don't think even his ult can justify that.

[Mattie42]

I like going:
:RunedAxe::Steamboots::GeometersBane:( :ShrunkenHead: ):SavageMace::Riftshards::Wingbow:
I really don't like picking up EP. it leaves you terribly squishy, and i don't think even his ult can justify that.

No lifesteal? Right.

[Raithed]

:Riftshards: :SavageMace: :RunedAxe: :Wingbow: :Steamboots: :ChargedHammer: / :ShrunkenHead:

And yes, no life steal; I usually get rid of EP after mid-game while I finish my boot/RA/Savage and work on hammer/RS, hammer replaces the DPS from EP.

[Mattie42]

Oh you get rid of it, so you waste gold? Tell me about your arguments against Whispering Helm/Symbol of Rage, I'm just curious.

[Javu]

Whispering Helm is a great item on a lot of carries, but I much prefer EP on chronos. For one, he is the only hero that can successfully use it without taking more bonus damage than he can dish out. The second reason I would take it over whispering helm is the attack speed buff in your bubble is just too good to pass down. EP will give you a lot more damage output than whispering helm, especially earlier on in the game. Going for a runed axe already gimps out your early-early mid game potential. If you got a whispering helm instead of an EP you would be even more useless for even longer, and you simply can't do that in the current metagame. As soon as people start hitting 6 lanes dissolve and ganks become prevalent. The days of being able to freefarm for 30 minutes is over and EP allows chronos to get in team fights and be effective much earlier

[Mattie42]

EP will give you a lot more damage output than whispering helm, especially earlier on in the game.

Actually, EP does +0 damage and WH does +20 damage and on top of that gives you +5 armor. The lifesteal is nearly the same: 17% vs 15%.

EP became even more useless, since the latest patch removes agility steal from his third skill.

Boosting attack speed is a good thing, for every hero. But EP is the wrong way of boosting it imo. Maybe, just maybe, :hamm: is qualified for it in synergy with his ulti. That's the only use I could think of in the game. Not even for :pred:.

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ its not damage from the ep directly, its the effects of activating it.

i.e. as ive said a million times.

the agility steal was damn near worthless. its effects were hardly noticeable unlike CD's conduit.

the AS bonus increases stun procs thus you get bonus damage from those. also, it allows you to rice farm and gank to get gold, making it a good 'farm choice'

with just EP the only damage you would dish out is base dmg, stun procs, and maybe an additional +10 from steamboots depending on stat choice.

HOWEVER, once you get your first dps item, like savage (which also increases your AS and give you more damage), you do wicked fast attacks with a very HIGH damage output, and the extra 20% damage taken is near negligible because of rewind and lifesteal.

On top of that, if you are worried about isntagibbers or burst dps while ep is active, that can be solved 95% of the time with a shrunken head. this also makes the chronosphere time near irrelevant, because in a true team fight, you can trap 2-3 heroes and if you have an instagibber threat outside the sphere you can

a) go for the instagibber
or
b) bank on a teammate disabling the instagibber

at either rate, when sphere ends, you should have killed 1-2 people (if not more) and the 2-3 people in the sphere will start casting, activate shrunken head, block all their magic damage. continue to autoattack ftw as you will steal and rewind life faster than anyone can damage you.

with WH/SoR this isnt possible. If you rush SoR, you miss out on DPS items. If you rush RA, you buy a farming tool that is pretty worthless in the Meta. yes with the RA you could farm SoR and have some good survivability. However, thats about 10k goold right there and would take at least 30 min to farm both those and steamboots.

as we've said before, the days of 30 min free-farming are long gone. with the addition of striders and chalice, the meta is a lot more gank oriented, and static farming a solo lane is very dangerous. if you try and take your farm into the woods, competitive (or smart) players will ward and gank you. Even if they are unsuccesful and just hinder you, your gpm will drop, and youll be getting your SoR closer to the 40 min mark.

If all you have at 40 min is steamboots, ra, and SoR, your chronos build is pretty bad. You could have gone steamboots, ep, savage mace, and have half of your BKB, which given those builds the surivability on ep is 'about 'equivalent.' i use about very loosely, because it depends on other factors such as judgement (when to activate the EP), but if used properly, actually has a lot of utility and survivability.

[Javu]

Actually, EP does +0 damage and WH does +20 damage and on top of that gives you +5 armor. The lifesteal is nearly the same: 17% vs 15%.

EP became even more useless, since the latest patch removes agility steal from his third skill.

Boosting attack speed is a good thing, for every hero. But EP is the wrong way of boosting it imo. Maybe, just maybe, :hamm: is qualified for it in synergy with his ulti. That's the only use I could think of in the game. Not even for :pred:.
siiiiiiiiigh, you know when you activate EP it gives you +100 attack speed yeah? For damage OUTPUT +100 attack speed > +20 damage by a loooooooong way. There's a reason why people buy steamboots on carries instead of phase boots, I don't have to explain that one to you as well do I?

The only reason I would ever contemplate buying a whispering helm over EP on Chronos is to stack ancient creeps, but my support should be doing that for me anyway

And just a little side note, don't ever, EVER, buy EP on hammerstorm, the only hero it works on is Chronos

[Javu]

double post ftl

[Mattie42]

siiiiiiiiigh, you know when you activate EP it gives you +100 attack speed yeah? For damage OUTPUT +100 attack speed > +20 damage by a loooooooong way. There's a reason why people buy steamboots on carries instead of phase boots, I don't have to explain that one to you as well do I?

The only reason I would ever contemplate buying a whispering helm over EP on Chronos is to stack ancient creeps, but my support should be doing that for me anyway

And just a little side note, don't ever, EVER, buy EP on hammerstorm, the only hero it works on is Chronos

Like I already said in my previous post:
- boosting attack speed is a good thing (for every hero);
- but I don't think EP is the way to do so, there are better items for that which don't give you 20% dmg taken.

Finally, not that this topic is about :hamm: or :pred:, but what in your opinion makes Chronos the only hero EP "works on"?

[Javu]

Like I already said in my previous post:
- boosting attack speed is a good thing (for every hero);
- but I don't think EP is the way to do so, there are better items for that which don't give you 20% dmg taken.

Finally, not that this topic is about :hamm: or :pred:, but what in your opinion makes Chronos the only hero EP "works on"?
Yeah but you also tried to rebut my argument that EP > WH for damage output by saying EP gives you + 0 damage and WH gives you + 20 damage, so I was just showing you how your rebuttal was wrong.

Chronos ult is a huge bubble that stops half or more of the enemy team from doing anything for a decent amount of time. That means while inside the bubble EP essentially gives chronos +100 attack speed for 1900 gold, because the life steal generally doesn't help you while the enemy team can't damage you, and the bonus 20% damage is mitigated by the fact that the enemy team is disabled and can't damage you. That's +100 attack speed for 1900 gold. A warpcleft gives you +55 attack speed for 2100 gold. That's nearly double the attack speed for 200 gold less.
With hammerstorm, you only have a small aoe stun with a much smaller duration to stop the enemy from dealing damage to you while the EP is activated, meaning that you will take the full brunt of the 20% bonus damage. If you get stunned during the duration of EP then you essentially paid 1900 gold for 20% bonus damage taken. See why it is useless on him? And sure, you can get a shrunken head to stop yourself getting stunned, but that doesn't stop the entire enemy team from simply autoattacking you to death. Hammerstorm's ulti, the +100 attack speed and the life steal isn't going to stop 5 heroes dealing + 20% auto attack damage from simply destroying you. The same goes for pred.

Make sense?

[Mattie42]

Obviously you got a problem reading. Namely, I also stated that the bubble only lasts 5 secs (6 with SotM, which you won't buy). EP lasts for 12 secs. That means after the bubble is done, you have 7 very vulnerable seconds of 20% dmg taken. Obviously the opposing team knows this and will try to focus you, and most likely kill you. I also mentioned that agility stealing was removed since the latest patch, so a boost in the attack speed NOW isn't as good as it was THEN.

Finally, when I said EP might be a good item on Hammerstorm in synergy with his ulti, I was referring to his push potential, not teamfights.

[Raithed]

Oh you get rid of it, so you waste gold? Tell me about your arguments against Whispering Helm/Symbol of Rage, I'm just curious.
Late game EP is useless, I don't know why you're arguing with many people and their views of how good... great EP is in the right hands in terms of playing Chronos, you're not even 1800+ 1.5+ yet you are arguing about it. Some people like DPS, some people like tanky, and some people like in the middle; there's no right way of playing a hero, yet you keep going on the righteous path that EP + Chronos = fail. It works most of the time.

[Javu]

In those 5 seconds the attack speed from the EP means you can clean up 1-2 of your biggest threats, so when the bubble is down not only is there less enemies to take advantage of the 20% bonus damage, but the ones that will make the most of it should be dead, so by the time the bubble is down you should at least be able to keep up with the amount of damage you are taking with your attack speed and life steal. Add a shrunken head to this and you should easily be able to kill another 1-2 of the enemy team before they cc and make the bonus damage really count. By this time you've already killed 2-4 of their team, meaning at most their should only be 3 more heroes left to damage you, and these 3 should be the least threatening to you on their team. Not to mention your entire team will be there to back you up. So yeah, the EP does last longer than the bubble, but if you play it right you can still maximise it's effectiveness.

When you say maximising hammerstorms push potential, do you mean clearing out creeps waves or destroying towers? Because if your using EP to destroy towers, then I'd hope to god the enemy team has tp's and are porting in to defend it, meaning whether you like it or not your going to be using the EP in a team fight. If your using it to clear out creep waves, then you picked the wrong hero

[Mattie42]

Alright guys, I give up. Ignorance is bliss. Keep buying (or selling..) them EP's and thanks for discussing it.

[ObeseSheep]

Blue needs to update before this gets cheezed. =(

[pwn_U_fast]

ive also stated that although there is 7 seconds where you are very vulnerable after ulting and activating ep.

you can get a shrunken head that lasts another 5, and you probably have at least 1 disabler who should be watching your back making sure you dont tank a lot of burst dps.

and if you really get low - timewarp out of battle.

ep = win, use 90-95% of the time.

SoR = situational, use about 5-10% of the time

EDIT: there also aren't really any good ATTACK SPEED items for the COST AND UTILITY you get out of the item.

alch bones scales horribly.
warpcleft is good, but only really effective combined into deamonic or charged hammer, and the latter of those two would just be a lulz build anyway.
deamonic - very good as, and armor reduction, expensive, late game luxury
tclaw - ok damage and attack speed, high cost, no stats, regen, or modifiers
charged hammer - overall ok, but expensive, (should have gotten something else probably)
insantarius is good, but the life drain and str don't really help.
wingbow is good, but uber expensive, more of a late game luxury.
stacking steamboots - possibly some potential here
steamstaff - cheap Attack Speed, but not much of it and low damage
gloves of haste- cheap, but low attack speed
hack n slash - sorry if you get this orb on chronos, uninstall game
great arcana - not a bad choice, but costs over half of what ep does
3xgreat arcana - expensive but no more mana requirements, late game luxury (probably should have gotten savage mace?)
savage mace - expensive as hell, late game luxury, no stats, no modifiers, epic on cronos when combined with ep.
geobane - decent AS, ok stats, ms bonus, good buildup, ok choice if you can micro well, illusions may block you (often not a good pickup on melees for that reason)
shroud - umm don't get shroud on chronos, nuff said
nullfire - decent stats, and purge, so so for dps, doesn't syngergize well

am i forgetting any AS items?

[Mattie42]

You can't compare EP with SoR. SoR brings a LOT more to the table.

[pwn_U_fast]

yes you can. you have been doing this whole time. we choose ep over SoR for its cheap price in the earlygame, and the utility it offers early-mid game. SoR would be a late game luxury in which i would sell my ep to pick up SoR after i already had mace, wingbow, bkb, crit and steamboots.

[Pobzyh]

alch bones scales horribly.
warpcleft is good, but only really effective combined into deamonic or charged hammer, and the latter of those two would just be a lulz build anyway.


Actually, I've found RA/whispering helm/warpcleft into demonic breastplate to be a very good build on him

It was concidered core in dota at least from what I've seen in some earlier pro matches (void isn't really picked anymore)

[pwn_U_fast]

Actually, I've found RA/whispering helm/warpcleft into demonic breastplate to be a very good build on him

It was concidered core in dota at least from what I've seen in some earlier pro matches (void isn't really picked anymore)


as i said warpcleft into demonic is a good choice

BUT

its not cheap. you also suggested getting ra as a first item, and on chronos i highly disagree with that. EP all the way. you can get the ep faster, which means you can start farming earlier, it doesn't hit your mana pool hard, and scales RELATIVELY well into the later half of a game.

so what your saying is get RA/steamboots at 20-25 min, deamonic prolly 30-40 depending on ganking vs free farm.

what im saying is EP/steamboots at 15-20, bkb or savage by 25 (BKB or 35 Savage).

your dps with either of those items (combined with the insane AS bonus from EP) will be really high relative to the in game time, and i feel the benefits of this build synergize and are overall better than the daemonic build. for pubbing both builds work. the end results are similar, high dps mediocre sruvivability.

also your build is more physical protective where as mine is magic. most of the time chronos damage output outweighs any incoming physical damage, so i tend to prefer to get magic immunity.

[pwn_U_fast]

double post my bad.

[ObeseSheep]

ive also stated that although there is 7 seconds where you are very vulnerable after ulting and activating ep.

you can get a shrunken head that lasts another 5, and you probably have at least 1 disabler who should be watching your back making sure you dont tank a lot of burst dps.

and if you really get low - timewarp out of battle.

ep = win, use 90-95% of the time.

SoR = situational, use about 5-10% of the time

EDIT: there also aren't really any good ATTACK SPEED items for the COST AND UTILITY you get out of the item.

alch bones scales horribly.
warpcleft is good, but only really effective combined into deamonic or charged hammer, and the latter of those two would just be a lulz build anyway.
deamonic - very good as, and armor reduction, expensive, late game luxury
tclaw - ok damage and attack speed, high cost, no stats, regen, or modifiers
charged hammer - overall ok, but expensive, (should have gotten something else probably)
insantarius is good, but the life drain and str don't really help.
wingbow is good, but uber expensive, more of a late game luxury.
stacking steamboots - possibly some potential here
steamstaff - cheap Attack Speed, but not much of it and low damage
gloves of haste- cheap, but low attack speed
hack n slash - sorry if you get this orb on chronos, uninstall game
great arcana - not a bad choice, but costs over half of what ep does
3xgreat arcana - expensive but no more mana requirements, late game luxury (probably should have gotten savage mace?)
savage mace - expensive as hell, late game luxury, no stats, no modifiers, epic on cronos when combined with ep.
geobane - decent AS, ok stats, ms bonus, good buildup, ok choice if you can micro well, illusions may block you (often not a good pickup on melees for that reason)
shroud - umm don't get shroud on chronos, nuff said
nullfire - decent stats, and purge, so so for dps, doesn't syngergize well

am i forgetting any AS items?

Forget the DPS for a second.
The only reason you should get an item that gives +20% taken on a hero with the lowest STR gain in the game is when he has a counter based bash. Not DPS. Why do you think :ElderParasite: is not taken on any other carry? Because they can't use it for balls, EVEN IF DOES GIVE DPS.


yes you can. you have been doing this whole time. we choose ep over SoR for its cheap price in the earlygame, and the utility it offers early-mid game. SoR would be a late game luxury in which i would sell my ep to pick up SoR after i already had mace, wingbow, bkb, crit and steamboots.

:ElderParasite: is a garbage item because:
1: :SymbolOfRage: brings so much ****ery to the table it's retarded. MOST
IMPORTANTLY: :WhisperingHelm:.
-Do not forget :WhisperingHelm:. I really don't know why you are forgeting the best farming item in the game.
-Do not forget rewind. 2.5k HP rewind. Nuff said?
2: It's only SOMEWHAT good on one hero out of 60, :chro:.

Sorry to say, but saying :ElderParasite: is always core (or even 90% core) is naive and stupid.
I'm just sayin, bring some love to the nerd rage.

[ElementUser]

It only reduces his EHP by 16.67%

:O

+100 Attackspeed early/mid-game decreases his seconds/attack by about ~0.25-0.3 (depending on your attackspeed before you apply the +100 from EP), which is quite a bit.

Consult the table here for more info: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=12545

[ObeseSheep]

It only reduces his EHP by 16.67%

:O

What does EHP mean?

[ElementUser]

Simply put, it's the amount of raw damage needed to take a hero to 0 HP when factoring in all other factors (ie, evasion, armor, other sources of damage reduction).

So if say hypothetically Hero A has 100 HP with 1 armor, then it'll take 100 + 0.06*100 = 106 physical damage to kill Hero A (1 point of armor gives a 6% EHP increase for physical damage)

Of course since Elder Parasite amplifies all damage types except Direct HP removal, it means Chronos' EHP = 0.833*HP (in general, without considering other factors)

Hypothetically, Rewind increases his EHP by 33% (1 / (1 - 0.25) = 1.33). However because they changed it to not be complete evasion, the EHP increase is actually smaller than that (the increase is smaller as more damage is dealt to Chronos in a small time interval).

In general, EHP = HP / DamageFactors

[Mattie42]

yes you can. you have been doing this whole time. we choose ep over SoR for its cheap price in the earlygame, and the utility it offers early-mid game. SoR would be a late game luxury in which i would sell my ep to pick up SoR after i already had mace, wingbow, bkb, crit and steamboots.

You can compare EP with WH, not SoR.

[Javu]

You can compare them in the fact that one is more of an offensive item and one is more of a defensive item. Personally for defense rewind + shrunken head + strong team support is enough. Plus the fact that Chronos lacks a strong steroid skill means he needs more offensive items than other carries

[pwn_U_fast]

if you are confident you can racks them early and win
elder parasite

if you have to carry late game, especially vs another carry
runed axe

i dunno about this. elder + savage mace is a really good anti-carry (1v1), especially on chronos. his rewind and lifesteal will heal enough health back for attacks he takes, and the fast attack speed plus animation cancel fromt he mini stun far outweighs any 1v1 anti-carrying power that an ra has.


You can compare them in the fact that one is more of an offensive item and one is more of a defensive item. Personally for defense rewind + shrunken head + strong team support is enough. Plus the fact that Chronos lacks a strong steroid skill means he needs more offensive items than other carries

agreeing with Javu here.


It only reduces his EHP by 16.67%

:O

+100 Attackspeed early/mid-game decreases his seconds/attack by about ~0.25-0.3 (depending on your attackspeed before you apply the +100 from EP), which is quite a bit.

Consult the table here for more info: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=12545


this is exactly the mechanical answer i was looking for. yes his EHP (which i have been saying all along) is lowered, but your damage output is crazy, and compensates for the increased damage taken. additionally the shrunken head blocks that damage and makes your EMagicHP infinite for 5 seconds, thus mitagating any nuking damage you should be taken.

if played properly, MECHANICALLY, the EP outweighs the WH or the sustainer.

just because carries like chronos and tdl are considered "hard" doesn't mean they can't build for the early game. runed axe is completely viable but so is elder+steamboots. with a little teamwork, you can actually help your team with elder+steamboots and you can't help nearly as much with sustainer+steamboots

agreeing with him completely. Just because he is a hard carry doesn't mean you have to maximaze his potential in the late game by farming. in the current meta, ganking is reigning as the superior strat. early ganking usually promotes early team pushing as well which in turns promotes earlier teamfights. (this is not true in EVERY game, but the meta works this way, especially with the introduction of chalice/striders). the days of 30 min free farm are few and far between. if you get the chance to free farm for 30 min, your opponents are doing a horrible job of map control, and deserve to lose regardless of your build.

however if you have decent competition, and you are ganking and pushing as a result, early teamfights will occur. especially (again if your opponents are decent) they will counter your ganking by grouping up and forcing teamfights. an early EP on chronos, combined with 1 or 2 decent disablers, and another 1 or 2 burst dps characters (nukers), and possibly a healer in the mix (dsham or jera), chronos' early game presence is actually awesome. mechanically, it actually helps his dps in the early game, and can turn a 5v5 into 5v3 very easily, with a combination of well placed ult and assistance of teammates disabling.

[ElementUser]

this is exactly the mechanical answer i was looking for. yes his EHP (which i have been saying all along) is lowered, but your damage output is crazy, and compensates for the increased damage taken. additionally the shrunken head blocks that damage and makes your EMagicHP infinite for 5 seconds, thus mitagating any nuking damage you should be taken.

if played properly, MECHANICALLY, the EP outweighs the WH or the sustainer.


Well not quite, some spells deal SuperiorMagic damage (only 2 that I know deal SuperiorMagic damage atm - Behemoth's initial Shockwave and Tundra's Piercing Shards, though the shards are also reduced by physical armor so it's a weak spell comparison). For the most part the statement is accurate though

[pwn_U_fast]

touche, but those are few and far between as you said.

panda's must be physical damage then on cannonball and his ult?

[ElementUser]

Yes, unless you have Harkon's Blade enabled on Panda, in that case his ult will deal magic damage.

[pwn_U_fast]

you're so smart. <3 U element.

[Javu]

Yes, unless you have Harkon's Blade enabled on Panda, in that case his ult will deal magic damage.
Haha this is a pretty interesting idea

[monsterr]

This forum and thread is about guides so keep on topic please.

[pwn_U_fast]

we were. that information was pertinent to disccusion of Effective Hit Points. He was stating that my statement wasn't 100% true.

Also he's a staff member, so he probably doesn't care. :)

[AAA_Boy]

I still don't understand why people are saying EP is bad on chronos. Sure it makes him a soft target once his bubble is down but come on..... What other item(s) for 1900 gold let's you farm 24 / 7 in the jungle while making you a threat at lvl 6. A chronos with threads and EP around lvl 7 can kill almost any int hero with his ulti. A chronos with perseverance (seems to be populat go go battlefury for some reason) cannot.

[Mattie42]

I still don't understand why people are saying EP is bad on chronos. Sure it makes him a soft target once his bubble is down but come on..... What other item(s) for 1900 gold let's you farm 24 / 7 in the jungle while making you a threat at lvl 6. A chronos with threads and EP around lvl 7 can kill almost any int hero with his ulti. A chronos with perseverance (seems to be populat go go battlefury for some reason) cannot.

You say it right, for jungling it's okay. In teamfights you're a sitting duck with EP.

[pwn_U_fast]

umm...not necessarily. if you bubble right, you just need some decent disablers to take out anyone outside the bubble to pose a threat while you do work inside.

also, it let's you farm OR gives you teamfight presence, and lifesteal is a must on chronos no matter how you get it (whichever item).

my preference as of current patch is EP because of it's effectiveness for both jungling AND teamfight presence early game.

we have also stated that if well executed, the EP can give chronos enough team presence to start pushing earlier and win faster. Primarily around 20-25 minute mark before other heroes start getting counter items. Additionally, upon getting the BKB, you alleviate almost all negative drawbacks of the EP.

[Mattie42]

Additionally, upon getting the BKB, you alleviate almost all negative drawbacks of the EP.

Yeah, because BKB neutralizes the 20% damage taken.

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ no but you can't take magic damage. which is where most of the burst dps comes from when you activate ep and bubble. nukes. so yeah you negate ALMOST all of the negative drawbacks with bkb.

the other damage you take, you will either rewind, or stealback in via lifesteal.

[eraye1]

Runed axe first is pretty bad because the bubble is good midgame and elder parasite is just a better item because it's easier to farm, let's you jungle and do damage early, letting you get kills and experience along with supporting your team. Also, you didn't mention nullstone, which is often an amazing pickup for chronos to avoid ganks and stop witch, pyro, and deadwood ults.

Torturer is also great with chronos because the chains can pull people together for an ult.
How to use chronos examples were good, but item pickups were not.

[Javu]

Yeah I don't think Blue has updated the guide in a while, the metagame has changed a lot since the time he wrote it, so it is probably ready for an update

[Vahn]

It hasn't been updated for 2 months, should probably be un-premium until it's updated.
Curse of the ages has in-correct information in the guide.

[Javu]

haha wow wish you were that good?

[ilike2ks]

about the behemoth's heart.... it could be useful if ureally need just hp, e.g. heavy nukers or enemy carry with more hp getting barbed armor...
note: it also increases dmg now

[pwn_U_fast]

i'd get a shrunken head for the hp, thats really all you need.

[ObeseSheep]

i'd get a shrunken head for the hp, thats really all you need.

Or you can get :Steamboots: because they give 10 STR too. :ShrunkenHead: is not enough. Srsly.

[pwn_U_fast]

Or you can get :Steamboots: because they give 10 STR too. :ShrunkenHead: is not enough. Srsly.

well i was assuming you got steamboots before the shrunken, but yeah naked shrunken isn't good enough but i think 20 str gives chronos a couple hundred hp which is enough to tank most nuke/ult combos.

[Blue_Aura]

It hasn't been updated for 2 months, should probably be un-premium until it's updated.
Curse of the ages has in-correct information in the guide.

Hey, I've finally finished school as of today so I'm going to be my bum back into gear and update it right now :D.

I guess I owe everyone an apology for being so slack haha.

My current thoughts on Chronos:

As the metagame has drastically changed from "Kills heroes around your farm" to "Farm around killing heroes" and is no longer a carry race. This means for Chronos to be a worth while pick in the current game he needs early game presence.

This involves a total overhaul in items and strategy.

EP - There is no debate.


EP is now 100% a core pickup for every game.

My reasons:
Like I said, Chronos needs early game presence for his team to be successful. This means looking at cheap items that have multiple uses.

* EP Gives you the life steal you need to jungle that will reduce trips back to the well (losing gold each time) and allows you access to farming the ancients relatively early. And it is vital for a Ninja on Kongor if an early Savage Mace is picked up.
* EP at level 6 allows you to be a strong threat to many heroes if you can catch them offgaurd in a 1v1 situation.
* EP will be extremely useful for almost the entire game with its 100+ Attack Speed and 20% Movement Speed allowing you to do your job - kill in your Chronofield changing the fight to 4v5.
* With the buff to EP a while back decreasing the damage from 30% to 20% I think it becomes an easy choice when one is confident with placing a Chronofield.


Why not Alchemist bones?!?!

Farming:
As you will have no life steal unless a whispering helm is picked up, which I am strongly against on Chronos, you will be making trips back to the well pretty often (losing a lot of gpm in the process). You will lose early access to the ancients and you will lose lane presence. Honestly I think the two would balance out in most games for GPM.

PVP:
30+ Attack Speed on Alchemist Bones vs 100+ Attack Speed and 20% Movement Speed. Easy choice, 3x More attack speed, Movement speed to chase and makes you a lot more deadly in your bubble.


What about RA?

As I said earlier, getting early presence is vital, so a rush for a 20 minute Runed Axe is no longer a help to the team, it is a hinderence and not to do it UNLESS you are in a trilane and you a specifically running that as your strat.

I have been doing a lot of experimenting to find a cheaper alternative to RA that. First thing I thought about was what made RA so important? My answer was the Cleave for Farming, the + Mana Regen for farming and Health Regeneration for lane control.

The Alternative

RA
____
$4350
+6 Hp Regen
+65 Damage
+150% Manaregen
+40% Cleave

Can be turned into
Steamboots + EP + Blood Chalice
_______________________________
1450 + 1900 + 650 = $4000
+25 Attack Speed (125 With EP Activated)
+ HP or + Damage and more Attack Speed
+ 17% Lifesteal
+ 2 HP Regen
+ 3 Strength
+ 3 Intel
+ 60 Movement Speed + (+72 With EP Activated
+ 3.3 Mana per Second (or 100 Manaburst)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now I do realize you do Lose 40% Cleave which certainly hurts Chronos, but you will be MUCH more valuable to your team.

Wow Bloodchalice? That came out of nowhere!

Blood Chalice is actually quite a good item on Chronos, Even better then a manabattery. You get the HP + Mana boost, and you will always have the mana for that panic leap, or have the mana to TP + Bubble for your team. It must be used wisely but I found it SO useful in aggressive and defensive situations.

Conclusion
This is the most appropriate change in my opinion and I'm certainly open to the hon communities thoughts. When Chronos received the nerf to COTA, making it one of the most useless skill in the game, he lost a lot of his carry presence and his role edged more towards team utility. This being said a Chronos players job has changed, and he must now play with the team and not AFK farm.
I am not saying he is not a carry, he defiantly is, but he is not as extreme as he used to be and with the current metagame the community needs to accept and adapt to Chronos being a team hero.


After that, I'll go edit the guide :D.

[Javu]

Some great points and I agree. It is no longer viable for chronos to farm for 30 minutes and be a liability to his team, he needs to get some items to help out early/mid game. Just remember to be wary when using blood chalice on chronos, as his health pool is abysmal, however I can see the merit in picking one up on chronos, especially if your missing out on the mana regen from a runed axe.

It is also worth bearing in mind that, if you do pick up steamboots, EP and blood chalice as your first items and are getting an exceptional farm, then there is no reason you can't also pick up a runed axe around the 25 minute mark if your support is stacking camps for you, its just not a good idea to pick it up as a first item anymore

[Blue_Aura]

When Strength steamboots and blood chalice are initially picked up, Chrono's health pool will be hovering around 1200 which isnt really bad considering rewind will be maxed. But you certainly do have to be careful with the timing on your chalice but the HP is easily recovered with a few autos.

[KirunaSimon]

Drop the EP
Get a firebrand then go shrunken/savage depending on the need

works like a charm

[Blue_Aura]

EP > Firebrand unless your going for an early geo or frostburn which your not, your going for savmace.

Update - I've re-written the whole first post, looks much neater and is up to date, will continue with it tmoz :D.

[KEENGAMER]

Why do you list soul reaper as a valid lane partner zzzzzzz

[tukkez]

I always build Chronos like this:

Steamboots -> Runed Axe -> Whispering Helm -> Geometer's Bane -> Shrunken Head -> Savage Mace or Riftshards or Wingbow -> Symbol of Rage

[Blue_Aura]

Why do you list soul reaper as a valid lane partner zzzzzzz

Thats one of the changes on my update :D. Javu used to play him a lot and when we laned together we always won, so thats why I threw him in there.

[Javu]

Thats one of the changes on my update :D. Javu used to play him a lot and when we laned together we always won, so thats why I threw him in there.
Just for clarification, we didn't intentionally run a chronos sr lane, I'd pick sr intending on going the long lane, but no-one else would pick a babysitter cos sr can babysit chronos >_>

[Javu]

Also I just had a quick run over the guide, and it might be worth mentioning in the ward placements part that a ward right near the enemies tower is also good to stop any tp ganks to your lane

[KEENGAMER]

Thats one of the changes on my update :D. Javu used to play him a lot and when we laned together we always won, so thats why I threw him in there.

Well thats nice, but SR is a horrible lane partner for chronos

[Javu]

Well thats nice, but SR is a horrible lane partner for chronos
Yeah but when Blue plays Chronos anyones a good lane partner

[ObeseSheep]

IDK what to make of Chronos anymore. Once I think of it more i can state my opinion for now I still think RunedAxe is viable just not as much. Chalice is what's tipping me...

PS: Blue check out my skout guide bro.

[KEENGAMER]

Yeah but when Blue plays Chronos anyones a good lane partner

I think what you mean is "When the average psr of a game is 1618 anyone is a good lane partner"

[pwn_U_fast]

lol.

i agree with Blue, EP is more important than ever, especially in the meta, which dictates generalizing a build for most situations.

I also agree the ra is not a bad pickup as a second item because the bonus cleave damage in the bubble combined with the as is ridiculous, but a savage mace is still preferred.

chalice is a pretty good item on a lot of heroes, even post nerf. mainly, because of the ability to give yourself clutch mana at almost anytime, and of course the static +hp and mana bonuses from the str and int. its also a very cheap initation item that like Blue said is perfect for being aggressive or defensive early game.

Off Topic but:

I still pick up chalice on almost every hero.
Strength heroes - perfect combo increase to health and mana, and gives most str heroes item independence early on

Int heroes - perfect combo to increase health and mana, allows for epic early game nuking

Agi heroes- - gives you that slight hp to survive certain situations and bonus mana to land the last hit/nuke heroes for a kill, important in the meta to aid your overall farm.

[Blue_Aura]

I think what you mean is "When the average psr of a game is 1618 anyone is a good lane partner"

Not true, countless times I have thought to myself, omfg I wish I was solo, your just leaching my exp.

Update: Still updating the guide, trying for a whole new layout that will give the info you need much efficiently and effectively. Tell me what you think :D

Update2: Ok, I'm totally drained, been working in it for a few hours, need a good break!

[Javu]

I think what you mean is "When the average psr of a game is 1618 anyone is a good lane partner"
I love people who put all the effort of going to maide stats to make an insult/comeback

[KEENGAMER]

I love people who put all the effort of going to maide stats to make an insult/comeback

It's not much effort mate and I don't really need to go through anything to make a comeback to a guy trying to tell me Reaper isnt a horrible lane partner for Chronos

[Javu]

Never said reaper wasn't horrible

[Ryper7]

It's not much effort mate and I don't really need to go through anything to make a comeback to a guy trying to tell me Reaper isnt a horrible lane partner for Chronos

the only person who had reaper as a good lane partner was the OP which omfg its not there anymore. so i dunno why ur havin a go at Javu.

someone needs to get off their high horse

[pwn_U_fast]

i still love Javu and Blue! :D

[Javu]

i still love Javu and Blue! :D
<3

Really wish that new HonMafia kicked off, I miss the days where it actually made it passed the first day/night

[desblade]

Uhm. EP and Symbol of Rage? That confuses me.

[pwn_U_fast]

^^ they are choices not suggesting getting both in the same build. lol.

and yeah, i gave up on honmafia. too much lack of interest. it would have been cool though.

[Javu]

Also if the game goes late enough and you have enough farm then it is definately worth selling your EP and building a symbol of rage. Blue really needs to write up a paragraph underneath his flowchart to explain it

[pwn_U_fast]

agreed.

[TheVeronicas]

Uhm. EP and Symbol of Rage? That confuses me.

yes
this
works

surely, 2 atk mods dont stack

symb rage = 25%lifesteal and other stuff

ep = 17% but offers 100atk spd 20%more dmg taken.

if u get symb rage and u have ep

get the axe 1st, the whispering helm dont do anything good for u

then farm the rest.

put atk mod onto symb rage

use EP to chase or atk under ult

= win

[pwn_U_fast]

i would not recommend that as a cookie cutter build.

POSSIBlY, in some odd situation that i cant think of atm, but really, dont double orb on this hero.

[NickJonas]

excelent guide.

[KuroiNamida]

i don't care about stats too much cuz im not pro, and tbh, HoN is just a game so in the end it doesn't really mean anything to someone like me.

Thank you for expressing this.

[pwn_U_fast]

you're welcome? and by it, i meant my stats, not HoN.

I actually care about this game a lot. sorry if there was confusion about me not caring about hon. I think its pretty obivous i care greatly about the game and the $30 i invested in it. haha.

[mega_manuel]

resto, staff, pkey. you win every figt and no-one from your team no die, if they no suck...

[Dragnmn]

resto, staff, pkey. you win every figt and no-one from your team no die, if they no suck...

What is this I don't even.

[Blue_Aura]

What is this I don't even.

An attempt at trolling, it failed.

[mega_manuel]

An attempt at trolling, it failed.
http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=24536783
i victor... not good earlygame but very great late!!!
just check second last teamfight or so, i dont remember the time mark and cant check it becuz my mom too mad if i start playing because it night already!

[Jiub]

someone may have posted this already, but what about geobane? 3 chronos's in his bubble do crazy damage after parasite and boots.

[BatTleMsTk]

quick question is it viable to pick up the broadsword and the other sword of runed axe after picking up your elder and steamboots for more dps count of would you recommend going sustainer first?

Only reason being that your higher damage output could go a longer way to helping you take waves and creep faster as well being able to solo lower health pool heroes, thus contributing to your team earlier... any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

[Demonhado]

My Chronos build:


Starter Itens:

Depending of the lane

:LoggersHatchet: :RunesOfTheBlight: :RunesOfTheBlight::MinorTotem: :MinorTotem: :MinorTotem: :MinorTotem:

or

:LoggersHatchet: :RunesOfTheBlight: :DuckBoots: :DuckBoots:
Then:

:Marchers: :LoggersHatchet: :chal: :IronShield: :SoulscreamRing: (:SoulscreamRing: is one of the best itens ingame)


Then:

:Steamboots:(Str) :chal: :IronShield: :SoulscreamRing: :ElderParasite:

Then:

:Steamboots:(Str) :chal: :IronShield: :SoulscreamRing: :ElderParasite: :Hack:

Then:

:Steamboots:(Str) :chal: :IronShield: :Wingbow: :ElderParasite: :Hack:

Then:

:Steamboots:(AGI) :chal: :IronShield: :Wingbow: :ElderParasite: :GeometersBane: (your copies can attack inside your ultimate)


Then:

:Steamboots:(AGI) :chal: :SavageMace: :Wingbow: :ElderParasite: :GeometersBane: or :Steamboots: (AGI):chal: :Wingbow: :ElderParasite: :GeometersBane: :ChargedHammer:

Luxury:

:Steamboots: (AGI): :Wingbow: :ElderParasite: :GeometersBane: :ChargedHammer: :SavageMace:

[Demonhado]

another thing:

What an sad build of this topic for this wonderful hero.
Chronos is way better with 150 of dmg and 200 attack speed than 300 of dmg and 100 attack speed. and don't do runed axe on it ¬¬ ffs.

Chronos is a ganker, not an hero who should keep creeping mid game... just do runed on it if you have tempest in your team, this way it should be the better item for him indeed. Chronos don't need hp regen or mana regen mid-late game either...

and dont trade an elder parasite for an symbol of rage... you don't need resistence if you can kill 2/5 full-life heroes of their team in 6 seconds (this aint hard to do late game with an high dps chronos build)

[Blue_Aura]

someone may have posted this already, but what about geobane? 3 chronos's in his bubble do crazy damage after parasite and boots.

I dont personally like geobane on melee units. Yes 66% - Armor damage is nice but its only useful in bubble. If you use it outside, the illusions get in the way of the chronos dropping your damage down dramatically. Also with all the Aoe damage being thrown around today, Chronos's illusions get killed off without anyone even thinking about it.


quick question is it viable to pick up the broadsword and the other sword of runed axe after picking up your elder and steamboots for more dps count of would you recommend going sustainer first?

Only reason being that your higher damage output could go a longer way to helping you take waves and creep faster as well being able to solo lower health pool heroes, thus contributing to your team earlier... any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

No,
Claymore +18 dmg? for 1400
Broadsword + 21dmg? for 1400
Sustainer will give you +10dmg for 1800$ + Reggeennnn - More mana (leap damage, teleport, bubble), lane presence etc etc.

Sustainer is much better then picking up either of the others first :D

Edit - Wrong dmg on weapons derp

[BatTleMsTk]

No,
Claymore +14 dmg? for 1400
Broadsword + 12dmg? for 1400
Sustainer will give you +10dmg for 1800$ + Reggeennnn - More mana (leap damage, teleport, bubble), lane presence etc etc.

Sustainer is much better then picking up either of the others first :D


I think you mixed up your numbers mate, broadsword does 18 (1200) and claymore does 21 (1400) so a total of 39 or so instead of just 26. big enough difference or no. Just wondering. Once again appreciated. and in your Honest opinion is chronos still a viable hard carry pick since the nerf to his curse of ages. probably already discussed in this forum but this forum goes everywhere in comparisons and such....

[Blue_Aura]

I think you mixed up your numbers mate, broadsword does 18 (1200) and claymore does 21 (1400) so a total of 39 or so instead of just 26. big enough difference or no. Just wondering. Once again appreciated. and in your Honest opinion is chronos still a viable hard carry pick since the nerf to his curse of ages. probably already discussed in this forum but this forum goes everywhere in comparisons and such....


Woah really? Haha shows how long its been since I've played!

However that being said - I still think sustainer is a much better item to pick up early.

If your playing a serious game I would probably say don't pick up Chronos to hard carry your team. Pick up TDL for example instead :).

[pwn_U_fast]

I think you mixed up your numbers mate, broadsword does 18 (1200) and claymore does 21 (1400) so a total of 39 or so instead of just 26. big enough difference or no. Just wondering. Once again appreciated. and in your Honest opinion is chronos still a viable hard carry pick since the nerf to his curse of ages. probably already discussed in this forum but this forum goes everywhere in comparisons and such....

agreeing with blue aura, if chronos had crits it might be worth it, but he doesn't, so the ~10 damage is near negligible when we are talking about striking for 150-200 per whack. also like he said, the focus of the ra is to get that early sustainer for mana and health regen and faster/easier farm.

however, i personally found that the ra was an unnecessary pickup on cronos.

[pwn_U_fast]

If your playing a serious game I would probably say don't pick up Chronos to hard carry your team. Pick up TDL for example instead :).

madman also seems to be a pretty good choice atm. his skills fight into the meta very well, and he only needs one 'decent' dps item to be an effective killing machine at lvl 11.

[Blue_Aura]

madman also seems to be a pretty good choice atm. his skills fight into the meta very well, and he only needs one 'decent' dps item to be an effective killing machine at lvl 11.

On topic, pwn brought up a point I was thinking about after I posted my last message about the sustainer. If your going for your RA, you shouldn't be worrying about dps, Sustainer will get you your items faster as you will not have to go back to the well or buy pots to continue your farm.

Off topic, Madman is a solid pickup again? I gotta get back playing haha, need to find a clan, done the odd pub here and there but so many bads in pubs haha. I'm a bit to addicted to SC2 atm. Msg me if you have a team/clan invite :D

[ObeseSheep]

On topic, pwn brought up a point I was thinking about after I posted my last message about the sustainer. If your going for your RA, you shouldn't be worrying about dps, Sustainer will get you your items faster as you will not have to go back to the well or buy pots to continue your farm.

Off topic, Madman is a solid pickup again? I gotta get back playing haha, need to find a clan, done the odd pub here and there but so many bads in pubs haha. I'm a bit to addicted to SC2 atm. Msg me if you have a team/clan invite :D

You need to add me on battle net. =D
Yo crit my guide you dashing Chronos player u.....

[FiftyCents]

just a little update for chronos chronofield combo (Bomb's ult) .. indeed, obvious

[Ggrofl]

Chronos = hard carry
Lumber ( if you need) Shield, some regen - marcher - runed - steams - w/e you like i'd say geos for the raw agi and AS and surv - savage - wingbow/symbol

[mega_manuel]

chronos = hard disabler...
l2p real roles..

[NguyenLegend]

I just heard the argument about RA or CH and I would have to say I would pick charge hammer.
Getting elder - warp-cleft then thunder claw then turning that into a charge hammer would give you more dps early mid game with a aoe proc for your ulty while also allowing you to get reasonable farm , also the faster you attack the more stun procs you get.
With a rune axe you would lose the speed and dps early on in the game which would kill your damage per second in your ulty and the magic procs would get at more enemies then the RA splash radius. Also you should be able to get more hero kills and be able to solo more heros with Charge hammer by mid game.
The splash dmg from RA with a crit seems alot better , but... that would take a while.

Well chronos has COA which procs more with more attack speed and magic dmg would bypass armor for those Agi carrys.

I am just saying the faster you can kill the faster you can carry.

( ..... I am still learning .. Please tell me if you agree or not. )

[Blue_Aura]

I just heard the argument about RA or CH and I would have to say I would pick charge hammer.
Getting elder - warp-cleft then thunder claw then turning that into a charge hammer would give you more dps early mid game with a aoe proc for your ulty while also allowing you to get reasonable farm , also the faster you attack the more stun procs you get.
With a rune axe you would lose the speed and dps early on in the game which would kill your damage per second in your ulty and the magic procs would get at more enemies then the RA splash radius. Also you should be able to get more hero kills and be able to solo more heros with Charge hammer by mid game.
The splash dmg from RA with a crit seems alot better , but... that would take a while.

Well chronos has COA which procs more with more attack speed and magic dmg would bypass armor for those Agi carrys.

I am just saying the faster you can kill the faster you can carry.

( ..... I am still learning .. Please tell me if you agree or not. )

I've had this discussed many times before, however I have a feeling those posts may have been deleted/cleaned up after updates. I can't remember all the arguements for both sides but the main reason was %.

Either when you're fighting an opponent a hero
- It procs every time and you smile and go purchase a lottery ticket,
- It procs sometimes, I find crossing your fingers whilst playing extremely difficult
- It doesn't proc at all, You've spent an insane amount of $$ on a dice that you're hitting people with.

Runed axe scales much much better and will allow you to farm much much faster.

Runed Axe
RA gives you an early Lifetube allows you to get control of your lane along side giving you a manatube so you will always be able to have your leap ready + tele bubble if you need it.

Hope this helps =).

[Ggrofl]

just played chronos.
Always get RA because it makes you snowball like a MF'er

[NonsAnalogy]

After reading your guide and building Chronos with the item layout and skills you suggest, my K:d has gone up dramatically and I very rarely have a bad game. I really appreciate the effort you put into this, and I wish more guides followed your format.

Thank you.

[Systemdir]

Is chalice still a core item after the recent chalice change?

[Blue_Aura]

I've been toying around with it and haven't found myself getting it. The problem is now I'm not to sure what to get on him ><, I guess back to the old Boots>EP>Sav Mace... Would love to see any high level replays with Chronos in it =).

I am thinking about it...

[Mac`]

Nice guide. I just want to recommend another counter for Chronos: Vindicator. I played Chronos last night with a Witchslayer babysitter bot lane on legion side vs vindi/pest combo. Vindi constantly warded our pull and kept draining my health and mana and there was nothing I could do about it because chronos' blink costs so much mana. Even with WS trying his best to harass, I couldn't get near the creeps without Vindi attacking or pesti stunning. Pesti ended up being able to free farm. My question is, what can Chronos do against Vindi early? (I'm not even mentioning the global silence as soon as I blinked in to a teamfight preventing me from ulting)

[ElementUser]

Call for ganks on Vindicator and get Mana Battery.

If he gets Lore early he'll be sooo weak later on. To the point where he's a free kill every time your ult's up, essentially.

[Jezu]

I think you should add Alchemist Bones and Mock of Brilliance in situational items (alchemist bones are pretty good now as they are buffed, and yes, im serious about mock. If you are freefarm and have stacks, with a mock you can clear the stacks, unlike with a runed axe, as the creeps hit you very hard.) Other than that, a very nice guide.

[Dredrick]

I think you should add Alchemist Bones and Mock of Brilliance in situational items (alchemist bones are pretty good now as they are buffed, and yes, im serious about mock. If you are freefarm and have stacks, with a mock you can clear the stacks, unlike with a runed axe, as the creeps hit you very hard.) Other than that, a very nice guide.

If you've got that much early game farm, wouldn't it be more advisable to get items with more immediate benefit, so you can continue to farm the other team, instead of help with jungle and ancient camps?

[Salvate619]

Anyone have any idea why cant i view some of the pictures ? :>

i get an imageshack frog image and under it the following ;
Domain unregistered
To view Register @ bit.ly/imageshack-domain
Any help would be nice <3

[Blue_Aura]

I think you should add Alchemist Bones and Mock of Brilliance in situational items (alchemist bones are pretty good now as they are buffed, and yes, im serious about mock. If you are freefarm and have stacks, with a mock you can clear the stacks, unlike with a runed axe, as the creeps hit you very hard.) Other than that, a very nice guide.

Mock is for heroes like sandwraith who role is to do a ton of aoe damage. Then pick a target and try and take them out.
Chronos's job is not to do aoe damage, but jump into a fight, kill off a hero and change the fight to 4v5. So no, mock is not a good Item for Chronos.

However I've been looking at adding alch bones into the build now its been changed, so many options now with no clear winner. I've found myself still getting a RA pretty fast but if I don't I go for the cookie cutter SteamBoots>EP>SavMace and it seems to work nicely.

Would love more opinions and idea's on the topic before I do a big update however...