Zoom & free camera - The official opinion ?

[Aroddo]

Click the picture to see how Demigod handles zooming.


http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/280/bild1w.png (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-TUkuhK_sc&hd=1)


Demigod has the ultimate camera control. God eye zoom and free control over camera positin and angles.

I know that you DotA veterans don't want it ... I also have the impression that HoN wants to be true to the original as much as possible.

Personally I feel claustrophobic without the ability to zoom out (even the console cheat doesn't help much).

So, is there an official opinion regarding a better zoom and camera control? At least regarding the camera control I think I saw a video of HoN where the camera rotated freely around a battle scene, so I guess it was built in and active at one time.

[FiNGERS]

With the option to zoom out, heroes that rely on being sneaky will become much less viable. Learn to use the minimap for map awareness. It helps.

Zoom is staying the way it is sadly. So it's up to the modding community to fix it upon release.

[FiNGERS]

Map is staying the way it is sadly. So it's up to the modding community to fix it upon release.

Sounds like cheating if they are adding a function that isn't readily available to everyone. This is the same reason people who use 2 monitors don't get any extra vision, it wouldn't be fair.

Also, you can't -fix- something that isn't broken.

[Aroddo]

With the option to zoom out, heroes that rely on being sneaky will become much less viable. Learn to use the minimap for map awareness. It helps.

aren't the sneaky ones invisible anyway?
and there is the fog of war...
Is there line-of-sight obstruction, too?

this should be enough for ambush tactics and let's the game feel like it wasn't released in 2001.

[FiNGERS]

aren't the sneaky ones invisible anyway?
and there is the fog of war...
Is there line-of-sight obstruction, too?

this should be enough for ambush tactics and let's the game feel like it wasn't released in 2001.

Right now you have to make a choice, to look ahead, or behind, or to the sides. You can't see everything on the main window that your true line of sight actually shows. Fog of war isn't enough. If you can zoom out enough to be able to place your hero in the center and make full use of the line of sight, it takes a lot of map awareness away from the game that separates new players from the pros.

[Osiris]

Right now you have to make a choice, to look ahead, or behind, or to the sides. You can't see everything on the main window that your true line of sight actually shows. Fog of war isn't enough. If you can zoom out enough to be able to place your hero in the center and make full use of the line of sight, it takes a lot of map awareness away from the game that separates new players from the pros.

You sound like one of those oldschool Starcraft pros that cry about the option to select more than one building in Starcraft II and therefore about the loss of an important feature of the game...

I've already said it and I say it again; increasing the games skill-level by making it less confortable to play is nothing S2 should aim for.

[FiNGERS]

You sound like a whiny three year old? What difference does it make what someone sounds like. You still can't ignore valid points.

Being 'less comfortable' to play is your opinion and I see no need to argue that point. The reasons you can't zoom out in WC3 is the same reason you shouldn't be allowed to zoom out in HoN. (Being released in 2001 is not the reason you can't zoom out, just FYI)

edit: I think it's very likely you won't be able to zoom-out in SC2 either, good example.

[Soulspawn]

there are hundreds of reason why i would say no only a few that i would say make it further or free camera.

sadly this means keeping it wins, the only advantage of zooming out is more likely to see that gank coming.

[reinis1]

Being 'less comfortable' to play is your opinion and I see no need to argue that point.
You are, in fact, arguing that free camera and zoom would make it too comfortable. It would take an edge away from players that have been forced into getting used to very limited camera controls. They have such an edge precisely because it is not comfortable and the minimap is mostly a work-around.

The funny thing is that the exact same arguments can be used against many of the changes S2 has already made to DotA. Simplifying the shop takes an edge away from those who are used to the old way of doing it, etc. It's basically an argument against fixing the uncomfortable aspects of DotA and thus against HoN as such.

Regarding WC3's camera control restrictions, it should be noted that it happened to mimic the same model that its older predecessors used, and the longer back you look, the more this model was dictated by technological limitations. Unless there are sources that confirm the opposite, it would seem more plausible that they were just following the tradition. The same goes for SC2.

[Jayschwa]

With the option to zoom out, heroes that rely on being sneaky will become much less viable. Learn to use the minimap for map awareness. It helps.
My issue with the zoom level isn't related to map awareness (I've got the minimap for that), it's related to space for move orders. When I'm dancing around with, or being chased by an enemy hero, I like to have both myself and the enemy in my view. When both of us are just out of range of eachother (for most skills), both of us are pretty much at opposite edges of the screen. This makes running backwards a pain in the ass since I have to pan and then lose sight of the other hero. The cramped zoom is the primary reason I've accidently clicked the minmap a couple times - because I have to keep my hero at the very edge to see what others are doing, and then I mis-click because there isn't much open space left on the screen.

I've been bumping my camera distance up each match, and it alleviates those problems.


You sound like one of those oldschool Starcraft pros that cry about the option to select more than one building in Starcraft II and therefore about the loss of an important feature of the game...
Yeah, it strikes me as similar. People start to view features of a game's interface as game mechanics.

[Chone]

Actually I think rotation and tilting of the camera would be great options, zooming out doesn't sound like the best idea to me but it doesn't sound like the end of the world either.

Sounds like cheating if they are adding a function that isn't readily available to everyone.

Also, you can't -fix- something that isn't broken.

How is it cheating if more map zoom is going to be included in future mods? I fail to understand that. Plus it's your opinion that it isn't broken. I don't share that opinion. I feel zoom is far too restricted.

[Bard]

You sound like one of those oldschool Starcraft pros that cry about the option to select more than one building in Starcraft II and therefore about the loss of an important feature of the game...

That was the impression it gave me too, I'm not saying you are, but you DO give that impression.

I understand fully the implication of a limited visual to the strategies etc, but it DOES feel like a pretty heavy limitation, and I don't think it's needed or will deprive HoN of any strategic depth, if anything would make ganking more difficult and dependent on other aspects of the game (line of sight, blinks and invisibility, etc..)
This will maybe make players used to DotA zoom lose a bit of their edge over newbies, but... who cares? In my opinion it's even a good thing. (and while I'm not pro or anything I've been playing DotA a lot, so that will affect me too)

The aim of HoN till now (or at least what it seemed to me to be) is to simplify and make more easy, fluid, fast and intuitive all the GUI aspects of the game, succeeding on it in all they have changed. I think the zoom is just one of the bad things that Warcraft 3 forced on DotA.

Also...

This is the same reason people who use 2 monitors don't get any extra vision, it wouldn't be fair.
True, but still some support for the 2nd monitor would be good to have every now and then, and I'm not talking about expanding the game area, that would be both unfair and horrible to see imho. I'm talking about putting in there a everything that you can see anyway but especially with bigger monitors becomes painfully small (like the minimap, teammates unitframes, game scores, etc) and all the stuff you can't usually see but don't have anything to do with the game (chat, friendlist, whispers, ...)

[Aroddo]

By the way, can anyone confirm that HoN once had camera controls?

This video shows rotation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ1VFN4mP4M&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.demigodthegame.com%2F3596 25%2Fpage%2F4&feature=player_embedded

[FiNGERS]

You people don't understand WHY you can't zoom out in most RTS games do you. It's the same reason you shouldn't be able to in HoN. Think about it.

[tobba]

The camera is fine, but it would be nice to be able to rotate it as in the movie Aroddo posted 2 posts above me. When I played pudge in normal DotA I loved to use the rotate function when throwing hooks.

[Yottabit]

I would prefer if you could zoom out farther than you currently can.

[SoGi]

You people don't understand WHY you can't zoom out in most RTS games do you. It's the same reason you shouldn't be able to in HoN. Think about it.

Im with fingers on this point, there is absolutely no need for free camera to be implemented. Stupid idea.

[Bard]

You people don't understand WHY you can't zoom out in most RTS games do you. It's the same reason you shouldn't be able to in HoN. Think about it.

I realize perfectly the reasons, it's one of the basic "tricks" knew and used since the '80ies to add """""strategic depth""""" to a game, but I always saw that more like a cheap way to do that, and in my opinion HoN doesn't need it. Sure, balance and gameplay would shift a bit, but not in a bad way imho.

I can't think of any strategy game that I played and came out in the last 2-3 years that has a zoom out that is so limited. Granted, except maybe in Supreme Commander you cannot zoom out to the whole map, but still you are able to see so much more than you can in HoN/DotA.

I'm not saying to allow HUGE zoom outs, I'm talking about a 25/30% more area on screen tops...

[binbo]

I'd like to zoom out just a little. Sometimes it just seems like everything is in my face, and I try to zoom out a little to no avail.

[Aroddo]

I suspect the developers are less worried about the technical requirements or strategical aspects of a sensible zoom than about something else altogether:

-- Will the introduction of something new incite the fundamentalists of the church of DotA to start a public Jihad against HoN, killing every chance of converting others to this game?

[oXi]

i wanna some more zoom out...why is so hard for 1 option zoom out 2-3 lvls...

[Runo]

Limited visibility adds a lot to a game. Anyone whose played Darkfall (a full-loot MMO without a radar and targeting) certainly understands this.

I like the camera view how it is. It makes you account for something else in your strategy. Omniscience wasn't ever the the point of RTS overhead view.

[binbo]

I don't really want to see more, I'm fine with that the way it is.

My main issue with it is that sometimes everything seems too big, which makes me wanna zoom out... and I can't. It's kinda like playing Starcraft on a high resolution monitor.

[skayne]

Limiting the game because thats the way "the pros got used to it" is HORRIBLE design. Yeah ok Warcraft 3 wasn't designed for DOTA. DOTA wasn't designed with the mindset of, ok we are gonna keep camera controls cause I like limiting the view of the player. They just had to work with what Blizzard made for an RTS.

Keeping something just because pros are USED to it, doesnt mean it was ever correct in the first place. If the camera was changed, you would just get used to that and evolve strategies around it. S2, stop hurting your new players and the design of your game because you want to make HON an exact clone of DOTA.

Make the smart design choices where they are necessary. Remember, the War3 engine wasn't made for DOTA, DOTA was just made in that engine and they stuck with whatever it gave them. Don't be foolish and ignore obvious improvements you can make to your game.

[FluffyM]

You people don't understand WHY you can't zoom out in most RTS games do you. It's the same reason you shouldn't be able to in HoN. Think about it.

You can zoom out further (relatively speaking...feels further) in all RTS I have played. HoN feels like they're trying to push my face into all the shiny effects they must be oh so proud of. Almost claustrophobic.

In DoW2 they decreased the zoom during the beta because people were complaining about it. DoW2 relies heavily on ambushing and positional advantage.

I assume it's like in most competitive games, adaptation = impossible.

[FuxoR]

Limiting the game because thats the way "the pros got used to it" is HORRIBLE design. Yeah ok Warcraft 3 wasn't designed for DOTA. DOTA wasn't designed with the mindset of, ok we are gonna keep camera controls cause I like limiting the view of the player. They just had to work with what Blizzard made for an RTS.

Keeping something just because pros are USED to it, doesnt mean it was ever correct in the first place. If the camera was changed, you would just get used to that and evolve strategies around it. S2, stop hurting your new players and the design of your game because you want to make HON an exact clone of DOTA.

Make the smart design choices where they are necessary. Remember, the War3 engine wasn't made for DOTA, DOTA was just made in that engine and they stuck with whatever it gave them. Don't be foolish and ignore obvious improvements you can make to your game.


Icefrog could have added in a higher camera view if he wanted, but chose not to.

[reinis1]

By the way, can anyone confirm that HoN once had camera controls?
It does have key bindings for Free Look and Camera Up and Camera Down, they just don't work.


You people don't understand WHY you can't zoom out in most RTS games do you. It's the same reason you shouldn't be able to in HoN. Think about it.
In the very first RTS games, the lack of meaningful zoom was dictated by technical limitations. I'm talking about things like Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. You couldn't make it any other way even if you wanted to, and you had to use workarounds, like minimaps. Later, it had become a tradition. It seems very plausible that Blizzard just followed the tradition.

It also seems plausible that they were being lazy about it, because less limited camera controls would require more work. In games like Warzone 2100 and SupCom, the outside of the map is empty, and it doesn't look very good. An example of doing it properly would be Demigod, but making maps like that takes a lot of effort.

In any event, "You're ignorant!" is not a logical argument.

[Elmy]

It does have key bindings for Free Look and Camera Up and Camera Down, they just don't work.


In the very first RTS games, the lack of meaningful zoom was dictated by technical limitations. I'm talking about things like Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. You couldn't make it any other way even if you wanted to, and you had to use workarounds, like minimaps. Later, it had become a tradition. It seems very plausible that Blizzard just followed the tradition.

It also seems plausible that they were being lazy about it, because less limited camera controls would require more work. In games like Warzone 2100 and SupCom, the outside of the map is empty, and it doesn't look very good. An example of doing it properly would be Demigod, but making maps like that takes a lot of effort.

In any event, "You're ignorant!" is not a logical argument.

Even if Blizzard followed 'tradition', why would that affect any WC3 Modder?

[Osiris]

Icefrog could have added in a higher camera view if he wanted, but chose not to.


Even if Blizzard followed 'tradition', why would that affect any WC3 Modder?

There are ways in WCIII to increase the camera distance, but they are all very messy and contain workarounds like setting the camera distance per trigger to its predestinated value periodicly, which would eleminate any kind of zooming. Also it would shake enytime you would hit your mousewheel. There is no 'clean' way to change the ingame camera in WCIII.

[Elmy]

There are ways in WCIII to increase the camera distance, but they are all very messy and contain workarounds like setting the camera distance per trigger to its predestinated value periodicly, which would eleminate any kind of zooming. Also it would shake enytime you would hit your mousewheel. There is no 'clean' way to change the ingame camera in WCIII.

I've personally played several WC3 UMS where the creator must have been particularly gifted at making these games or something based on what you said. They pulled off having a higher zoom flawlessly. Not only that, but having several different options as to how far you want to see. Warlocks, Enfos, Impossible Bosses, to name a few of the more popular ones?

[Osiris]

I've personally played several WC3 UMS where the creator must have been particularly gifted at making these games or something based on what you said. They pulled off having a higher zoom flawlessly. Not only that, but having several different options as to how far you want to see. Warlocks, Enfos, Impossible Bosses, to name a few of the more popular ones?

Warlocks has a pretty ovious workaround and simply uses small units, and since the terrain has no cliffs and lacks any detail its hard to recognize. Enfos uses normal camera distance and normal unit size. Can't say anything about Impossible Bosses, though, since I don't know this map.

[Elmy]

Warlocks has a pretty ovious workaround and simply uses small units, and since the terrain has no cliffs and lacks any detail its hard to recognize. Enfos uses normal camera distance and normal unit size. Can't say anything about Impossible Bosses, though, since I don't know this map.


Both Enfos and Impossible Bosses have commands which you can use to adjust the camera (Enfos is numerical based, same as Warlocks and Impossible Bosses is "Close", "Medium", "Far").

[Osiris]

Both Enfos and Impossible Bosses have commands which you can use to adjust the camera (Enfos is numerical based, same as Warlocks and Impossible Bosses is "Close", "Medium", "Far").

Yes, thats what i meant by messy workarounds. Adjusting your camera by chat commands to break down engine limitations sucks. Also, as soon as you would move your mousewheel the modified camera would either reset tu normal or, in case its done with the periodic trigger, it wouldn't move (only shake a little) at all.
As i said; there is no clean way in WC3 to increase your zooming level.

[Elmy]

Yes, thats what i meant by messy workarounds. Adjusting your camera by chat commands to break down engine limitations sucks. Also, as soon as you would move your mousewheel the modified camera would either reset tu normal or, in case its done with the periodic trigger, it wouldn't move (only shake a little) at all.
As i said; there is no clean way in WC3 to increase your zooming level.

I know the middle mouse button thing does happen in Impossible Bosses, though that option isn't turned on by using chat commands.

I can only imagine that I would at some point have slipped up in Enfos and Warlocks as well, if I did it in Impossible Bosses. But I can't say I've experienced it with either of those. Though I'll admit that you can't adjust it with 3rd mouse. But, who cares? You find a numerical value you like and stick with it from then on. =/ I actually would rather that my 3rd mouse button didn't affect it once I've changed it, since it's usually just a slip if I do it.

In either case, if that's your definition of 'messy' (someone fat fingering the 3rd mouse button), then it's weak at best.

[Fausterion]

I see no reason to have the camera zoomed in tight like it is in Dota. Many modern rts games aren't zoomed in as tight. Games like Supreme Commander and Demigod allow you to zoom out pretty far. This should be implemented in HoN (along with the camera rotation feature in the linked video). And no, I don't think such a feature will remove strategic depth. Fog of war and invis skills/items add strategic depth, not archaic camera systems.

[UltiGrek]

I think every1 here is having good suggestions and i would just like to say that i am very happy to inform you about my opinion. free cam mode is great!

[Bloodsoda]

./wave Aroddo

I would love to see this tossed in as an option but not a default one. Only Zooming tho, I don't think rotating would be all that useful with these maps and we're more likely to blind ourselves more.

I think beta is the best place to see just how much this really would unbalance the game or if it's a unfounded fear.

[reinis1]

You find a numerical value you like and stick with it from then on.
Not that you have a choice. In many other, I should say, more modern games it works by changing the zoom on the fly. You don't even think about it, you just do it. The times when you start thinking about camera controls are when they're as constricted as in HoN and force you to use workarounds that you normally wouldn't. For instance, you wouldn't find anyone playing Demigod by zooming in relatively closely and then using the minimap for everything else, even though it would be possible. Not even the ones defending the current camera controls in HoN.

[Mr_Fix_It]

To be honest, the current zoom level feels like i'm smushed into the screen. Even more so than when i played dota those few times.

There should be some new controls over dota, even if it's not that much more zoom out, it would be nice to position the camera at different angles to my character.

I suppose it's up to what S2 are trying to do. A carbon copy of Dota? or a dota like game that aims to be easy to pickup, but impossible to master. A carbon copy of dota isn't going to sell incredibly well. War3/dota run perfect on older systems, which HoN won't even try on, and the graphics aren't enough to make the distinction of the 2 games. Hence the explosion of netbooks (that run war3 quite decently), will keep dota going for awhile, seriously, impromtu netbook dota lans!, it sounds cool lol.

It would be a mistake to design this game for purely for dota 'pros' as they probably won't buy the game. They will be too attached to their war3 dota.

[Elmy]

Not that you have a choice. In many other, I should say, more modern games it works by changing the zoom on the fly. You don't even think about it, you just do it. The times when you start thinking about camera controls are when they're as constricted as in HoN and force you to use workarounds that you normally wouldn't. For instance, you wouldn't find anyone playing Demigod by zooming in relatively closely and then using the minimap for everything else, even though it would be possible. Not even the ones defending the current camera controls in HoN.

Evidently not, because it's easier to play that way. Not just for the 'look'. It has been pointed out why this it is the way it is several times. And it being 'easy' is one of the points.

[reinis1]

Evidently? You can find gameplay videos of Demigod, Warzone 2100 and even SupCom on YouTube, and see that people use the zoom functionality a lot. These are only the games I'm personally familiar with, and there are probably many others. No one sets a constant zoom and then uses the minimap for everything else, like you would in HoN. It's not easier, and there aren't any substantive arguments put forth why it would be. There's only "IceFrog knows better", "Blizzard knows better" and other appeals to authority or tradition.

[Raz1eL]

I'm all about camera zoom-out. On big displays with resolutions like 1280x1024, everything is just too big.
on a side note: since I managed to change the camera zoom in wc3, the game has been alot more enjoyable. And the minimap is still the most important survival tool in there :)

[MrJag]

For what it's worth, the model scale in HoN is still 10% larger than DotA's which is why some of you feel like it's more cramped in comparison. The current zoom of 1650 is a good fit for the terrain sizing but you need to use a zoom of 1820 to approximate the DotA model sizes. If the goal is a perfect replicate, then S2 needs to scale the models down another 10%.

On the other hand, I think a dynamic zoom is better off than a constant zoom. Fog of war takes care of vision balance and there shouldn't be artificial constraints on a player's actionable field of view. The only argument I have against a dynamic zoom is that the polygon/particle count goes up significantly the more that you zoom out and thus the system requirements as well. The current zoom level could very well be set in order to put a cap on the system requirements.

I personally prefer a zoom level of 2300.

[Elmy]

Evidently? You can find gameplay videos of Demigod, Warzone 2100 and even SupCom on YouTube, and see that people use the zoom functionality a lot. These are only the games I'm personally familiar with, and there are probably many others. No one sets a constant zoom and then uses the minimap for everything else, like you would in HoN. It's not easier, and there aren't any substantive arguments put forth why it would be. There's only "IceFrog knows better", "Blizzard knows better" and other appeals to authority or tradition.

What I was saying is that it is easier to play that way (not zooming in and playing with restricted vision + mini map). Evidently, it is easier to play the higher the zoom out is, because you have more in your field of vision and people will be more reactive to what they see in their screen rather than their mini map.

[FiNGERS]

Evidently? You can find gameplay videos of Demigod, Warzone 2100 and even SupCom on YouTube

I've never even heard of these games. I bet they were awesome to play competitively.

/sarcasm.

[punkUser]

There's really no reason to restrict the camera or interface to make it "more difficult"... that's a stupid way to add "depth" to a game. Sure you could make it so that there were no shortcut keys or so that you had to answer math questions to cast spells, but that would be silliness. Any "skill" involved in navigating archaic camera systems is neither valuable nor interesting - lets keep it focused on the actual game and try to eliminate any barriers to playing it efficiently. Fog of war is the mechanic that restricts visibility - there's no need for camera restrictions.

And even if you can make an argument about camera zoom, there's no argument to disallow rotation. In fact right now the current camera slightly favors the bottom team. Allowing rotation would even that up.

[Osiris]

I've never even heard of these games. I bet they were awesome to play competitively.

/sarcasm.

And you can't play DotA/HoN competitively anymore, when they would increase the camera distance by 20-30%?

[Karmashock]

I agree that we should be able to zoom out as far as we want to... much as we can in Supreme Commander...

[reinis1]

I've never even heard of these games. I bet they were awesome to play competitively.

/sarcasm.
Is this what we're back to? DotA does it this way, therefore it must be good? I guess competitive play in HoN must be doomed then, since there's lot of changes from DotA, like the shops and whatnot.

[FiNGERS]

Last post.

DotA does it a certain way for a reason. GOOD COMPETITIVE RTS games also do it for a reason. Sure they could allow everyone to zoom out as far they wanted, but it would just make the game easier. Ganking would be harder, farming for days would be easier. Let's not farm for days like the early 6.xx days. I have not heard 1 solid argument to support zooming out besides the fact it would 'make the game easier/comfortable'. Let's push our comfort zones a little shall we? The only limitations one has are the limitations one puts on oneself. This is DotA/HoN, not 'The Sims'.

[edxs]

If you use the console, you can move the camera back to about 2150 before strage things happen at the margin of the screen. Some things are worse (effectively smaller selection size), but in general it's vastly superior, you can actually see everything in your attack range/spell ranges.

I don't really see why there's any reason whatsoever to lock the camera position and FOV. Artificial limitations on the player's view of the game are silly and undesirable.

I'm sure I am biased because the game I am most experienced in is Q3 where nobody gives a damn what FOV you use, since smaller FOVs are better for aim and larger FOVs are better for movement and awareness.

[edxs]

I have not heard 1 solid argument to support zooming out besides the fact it would 'make the game easier/comfortable'. Let's push our comfort zones a little shall we? The only limitations one has are the limitations one puts on oneself. This is DotA/HoN, not 'The Sims'.

I agree, there should be nothing on your screen except units, heros, and buildings. Get rid of 3D rendering, pure white ASCII on black background is fine for HoN. Everything else just makes it easier and more comfortable, which is undesirable for competitive games.

Edit: I should probably include something besides taking an opinion to its extreme. Games are about the game, not about the interface. Mastering the interface should not be a measurable skill in any decently designed game. The interface should be absolutely transparent so the mechanics of the game itself are the only important thing.

[Karmashock]

If you use the console, you can move the camera back to about 2150 before strage things happen at the margin of the screen. Some things are worse (effectively smaller selection size), but in general it's vastly superior, you can actually see everything in your attack range/spell ranges.

I don't really see why there's any reason whatsoever to lock the camera position and FOV. Artificial limitations on the player's view of the game are silly and undesirable.

I'm sure I am biased because the game I am most experienced in is Q3 where nobody gives a damn what FOV you use, since smaller FOVs are better for aim and larger FOVs are better for movement and awareness.
Can you tell me what the console command is please? i'd like to benefit from this immediately.

[reinis1]

Ctrl+F8, g_camDistanceMax 2100.

[Vodka]

My issue with the zoom level isn't related to map awareness (I've got the minimap for that), it's related to space for move orders. When I'm dancing around with, or being chased by an enemy hero, I like to have both myself and the enemy in my view. When both of us are just out of range of eachother (for most skills), both of us are pretty much at opposite edges of the screen. This makes running backwards a pain in the ass since I have to pan and then lose sight of the other hero. The cramped zoom is the primary reason I've accidently clicked the minmap a couple times - because I have to keep my hero at the very edge to see what others are doing, and then I mis-click because there isn't much open space left on the screen.

THIS. About another 10% zoom out would be a godsend to solve this problem.

[willtsay]

Right now you have to make a choice, to look ahead, or behind, or to the sides. You can't see everything on the main window that your true line of sight actually shows. Fog of war isn't enough. If you can zoom out enough to be able to place your hero in the center and make full use of the line of sight, it takes a lot of map awareness away from the game that separates new players from the pros.

Mini map, you can see the whole freakin map Np.

so long as you can;t go out all the way to the point where you could see like both midlane and top rune, or something it should be fine. as that would def. sometimes ppl forgot to look every 2 min that kinda stuff :)

[Gedok]

I'll say it before and I'll say it again: I really don't see the point of restricting the camera zoom. Lots of DOTA traditionalists say it's to make ganking easier since the players can't see as much, which might be true if Fog of War didn't exist. Fog of War already acts as a visual restriction, so there is no need for the camera to do the job.

[Osiris]

Last post.

DotA does it a certain way for a reason. GOOD COMPETITIVE RTS games also do it for a reason. Sure they could allow everyone to zoom out as far they wanted, but it would just make the game easier. Ganking would be harder, farming for days would be easier. Let's not farm for days like the early 6.xx days. I have not heard 1 solid argument to support zooming out besides the fact it would 'make the game easier/comfortable'. Let's push our comfort zones a little shall we? The only limitations one has are the limitations one puts on oneself. This is DotA/HoN, not 'The Sims'.

You still owe me an explanation how 20% more zoom would make the game less competetive? Gameplay might change a little bit, but change is part of DotA - as you recogniced. I think if Ice would have asked people like you if they'd like the glyph of fortification or neutral hero tavers before they were released, we would never have seen any significant changes in DotA, except for some new items and heroes.

Also, I doubt that 20-30% more camera distance would influence ganging so strong. The medium of sight-restriction in DotA and therefore the requirement for initiating a gang is the fog of war, not the camerabounds, since you always could see enemies coming out of the FoW on the minimap.

Btw, DotA does it for the reason that, since it is a WC3 mod, it is restricted to the lame WC3 camera. Its not like Icefrog has adjusted the camera to this level.

Btw, DotA does it for the reason that, since it is a WC3 mod, it is restricted to the lame WC3 camera. Its not like Icefrog has adjusted the camera to this level.

That's where you're wrong. When you create a WC3 map you can set the max zoom. Afaik you can go higher than the current dota setup. Though this in no way invalidates desires for greater camera zoom. Simply because there's far more going on effects wise on screen than dota. Plus models and objects in HoN are larger than their dota counterparts visually.

[reinis1]

When you create a WC3 map you can set the max zoom. Afaik you can go higher than the current dota setup.y.
Earlier in this thread, someone was explaining that it's not the case (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=57023&postcount=31).

Earlier in this thread, someone was explaining that it's not the case (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=57023&postcount=31).

Welp that's what I get for believing what I read on these forums. >.< I can't find the post where it was mentioned sadly. Too many posts about zoom already :o

[Elmy]

Earlier in this thread, someone was explaining that it's not the case (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=57023&postcount=31).


It was also disproved in pretty much the next post.

That it is not the case, I mean.

tldr: IceFrog had no such restrictions.

[Osiris]

It was also disproved in pretty much the next post.

You actually proved my point that altering the camera is only possible with stupid workarounds and messy results.

That it is not the case, I mean.

tldr: IceFrog had no such restrictions.

Icefrog is bound to the editor and therefore he has such restrictions...

blahblahblah

[Stiler]

My main problem with the camera is how you can't rotate it.

When I am playing on the Hellborn side I'd like to rotate the view around so my main line of sight toward the general direction of enemies isn't being obscured by the UI any which in turn makes you have to position the camera down further then if you are on the Legion side usually.

[gahd_damn]

My nickname for the camera-toting cloud-flyers in this game is "****ing **** puppet"

The devs say it's crucial for gameplay, that's fine.

I just won't buy the game :D

That simple really. The camera and UI **** is a game breaker for me. Broken, gone.

I can live with having to memorise item trees you can only look at IN GAME (and thus waste valuable xp time "learning")

I can live with hero builds being pre-set and fairly unchageable if you want to be successful.

I can live with having to use the color shade of a 1 pix wide box around a healthbar to tell freind vs foe.

I can not stand the camera. Ganking mechanics are NOT a valid reason for restricting the camera FoV which is ESSENTIAL for movement.

restricting LoS reveal of FoW IS a valid way to keep the "ganking" mechanic in. ESPECIALLY when you can loose sight of a guy you're in MELEE RANGE with because he stepped down a hill.

[FiNGERS]

I just won't buy the game :D

Then why are you playing it now? Obviously you like the game. I'll bet you'll end up buying the game if you aren't already thinking about pre-ordering. Or when half the DotA community moves over, you'll be the last rhino from Jumanji.

[gahd_damn]

@fingersI'm playing it now because I like S2, and do want to find bugs and improve the gameplay.

I'll happily move over to the OTHER S2 games title I ALREADY bought, and spend the $$ I would have spent on HoN on runes for my Savage2 avatar.

You lost the bet, now go streaking in front of the sorority house.

[Karmashock]

Ctrl+F8, g_camDistanceMax 2100.
Thank you. Can this be changed elsewhere by default? Because Once I find the right setting I'm not going to want to change it all the time. :)

[reinis1]

Not that I know of. Using the init.cfg file doesn't work. I've gotten used to typing it manually all the time.

[Osiris]

I'm pretty sure about the console getting disabled at the official release of HoN :(

[tacoboat21]

Honestly, this is what the debate is:

Increase the camera zoom because it would make playing the game easier.

Keep the camera zoom where it is because it maintains a competitive aspect of the game.

Where I stand is I have no issue with the camera. However, I am a seasoned DotA veteran so I have learned how to play absent a further zoomed out camera. We are all going to be heavily biased in our opinions on the matter because it honestly falls to a matter of preference and which gameplay element would most be most personally beneficial.

Would an increased camera distance help me out? Maybe, a little. Not significantly. Would it help those out that are less experience? Probably a lot. Do I feel a bit jealous they wouldn't have the same trial by fire I had to go through to learn how to play? Truthfully, yes. I like the fast-paced game play that the "in-the-action" camera distance that DotA is played at. It stresses that you learn a 6th sense map awareness, so you can't just zoom out and see what's going on. Instead, through experience and intuition you read the situation, the battle, and true skill can shine.

It's not friendly to newcomers, but it's a hell of a lot more fun on a competitive level.

Selfishly, that's what was so great about DotA. It was an elitist community. A community and game on-to-itself, hidden away in a game from the early 2000's. To play the game, you had to download it from a separate site--no in-game dlers allowed. It was no casual affair; you had to work. Countless hours of being raped. Countless hours of learning, failing, and frustration. However, when you joined a game, you knew what you were going to get. Were there still noobs? Yes, but a noob is a relative term to anyone of less skill. Yet, everyone possessed fundamental expertise and knowledge.

Accommodate this game for main-stream? Things change; I know that--there's no reason to try to hinder or confront progress. There would always be DotA still long after this game and a host of other DotA-clones launch.

Personally, I don't think these fundamental gameplay aspects should be even debated by players with any relevance to what the developers actually do. Like an artist, it's their vision, and their's alone, they must fulfill. If they want a harder more competitive game--so be it. If they want it to be mainstream--so be it.

[Elmy]

It was also disproved in pretty much the next post.

You actually proved my point that altering the camera is only possible with stupid workarounds and messy results.

That it is not the case, I mean.

tldr: IceFrog had no such restrictions.

Icefrog is bound to the editor and therefore he has such restrictions...


Hardly. Your description of 'messy workarounds' are a tiny tremble when using third mouse button (which I never experienced and would be completely my fault if I did anyway)?

Thanks, but try again.

[FluffyM]

My god.

Noone's asking for a zoom that lets you overview the whole map, just a zoom that doesnt make it feel like the towers will gouge your eyes out any second.
They should just go for it and decrease the level of zoom by a marginal amount, and I'm willing to bet the difference will hardly be noticeable.

[gahd_damn]

My nickname for the camera-toting cloud-flyers in this game is "****ing **** puppet"

The devs say it's crucial for gameplay, that's fine.

I just won't buy the game :D

That simple really. The camera and UI **** is a game breaker for me. Broken, gone.

I can live with having to memorise item trees you can only look at IN GAME (and thus waste valuable xp time "learning")

I can live with hero builds being pre-set and fairly unchageable if you want to be successful.

I can live with having to use the color shade of a 1 pix wide box around a healthbar to tell freind vs foe.

I can not stand the camera. Ganking mechanics are NOT a valid reason for restricting the camera FoV which is ESSENTIAL for movement.

restricting LoS reveal of FoW IS a valid way to keep the "ganking" mechanic in. ESPECIALLY when you can loose sight of a guy you're in MELEE RANGE with because he stepped down a hill.

To clarify this point, I mean there is no reason FoW needs to be revealed anywhere your char is not looking. Your ass-end and Sides should NOT be visible. The WC3 engine LACKED a lot of directional and hitbox type stuff, the K2 engine does NOT and I'm surprised they kept the 360 reveal in with it.

[Osiris]

Hardly. Your description of 'messy workarounds' are a tiny tremble when using third mouse button (which I never experienced and would be completely my fault if I did anyway)?

Thanks, but try again.

My description of 'messy workarounds' is the complete loss of your zooming ability, since your camera is fixed to a specific angle and distance. Also, calling a function in a very slow script language periodically 100 times a second is somewhat inefficient, even if it was more of an issue in year 2003 than 2009...

[Aroddo]

I see that the community is divided about this issue.

* Group 1 doesn't want any change whatsoever.
* Group 2 thinks that current camera height severly limits fun and accessability.
* Group 3 can live with both ways and is willing to adapt.

Hard to see which group is the most numerous amongst all the yelling.

But since we have a poll system we might as well use it.

[FluffyM]

Voted for limited zoom, allthough I think twice the current height will probably be too much (1.5 of current sounds more reasonable imo).
Would've voted for free cam rotation but didnt see it was multiple choice.

[Runo]

To clarify this point, I mean there is no reason FoW needs to be revealed anywhere your char is not looking. Your ass-end and Sides should NOT be visible. The WC3 engine LACKED a lot of directional and hitbox type stuff, the K2 engine does NOT and I'm surprised they kept the 360 reveal in with it.

This would be the only way I'd be for increasing zoom distance. Fog should not be able to be seen as far behind you as it is in front of you. The heros do not have eyes in the back of their heads.

[punkUser]

When I am playing on the Hellborn side I'd like to rotate the view around so my main line of sight toward the general direction of enemies isn't being obscured by the UI any which in turn makes you have to position the camera down further then if you are on the Legion side usually.
Yes precisely... frankly I'm surprised that people are fine with the bottom team having an advantage in this regard in DotA (unless you literally HOLD DOWN the rotate button... in WC3 you can orbit, but it returns to the original position when you let go of the button), and more surprised that they want it to be the same in HoN even when it would be a simple change. To be fair, the view is a bit more equal in HoN than in WC3/DotA (it's a bit more top down), but I still see no compelling reason not to allow rotation for those who want it. It'd be particularly useful on the largely vertical second map on widescreen monitors.

I can see some arguments for zoom, but there's really no argument for not allowing camera rotation/orbiting.

[ma5]

Who ever wants double zoom as it is now, have fun CSing with that.

[Aroddo]

Regarding rotation: I too wondered why widescreen users should have a sight disadvantage. :)

[Aroddo]

This would be the only way I'd be for increasing zoom distance. Fog should not be able to be seen as far behind you as it is in front of you. The heros do not have eyes in the back of their heads.

They also don't have their eyes one mile away on the head of your buddy.
Line-of-sight fog is interesting (trees creating fog etc.) but making sigth depending of facing is something best reserved for first person shooters.

I do not understand how allowing max zoom-out would benefit new players, or any players for that matter. Units would be harder to click, so unless you had an omgwtfbbq huge area spell, it would be of no use to you. Ever try to cast a small spell (say cursed ground - voodoo jester) from the minimap? The points about better map awareness are weak, as the minimap already does the same.

Honestly, noobs will be noobs. I can ping the river 10000 times and shout loudly into my mic, but the idiot in bottom lane will still get ganked. I mean, what gives? (sorry, a little harsh on my newblet friends. I love you, but only if you take some time to listen)

I do feel that default camera zoom (in HoN And DotA) is annoying at times, especially when in team fights, where it's a big charlie foxtrot.

Having it zoomed out to say, 2100 as max would be ideal.

[Elman1]

I'm sorry, why is there a poll for this?

It's freaking 2009... If you want outdated gameplay go play in the Warcraft 3 engine. The whole point of HoN is improving DotA by using a new engine's capabilities.

[Bard]

Voted for limited zoom, allthough I think twice the current height will probably be too much (1.5 of current sounds more reasonable imo).
Would've voted for free cam rotation but didn't see it was multiple choice.

Same here, I'm not really against double the distance, but I feel like a 1.3 to 1.5 times what is now is a nice middle point between targeting precision and area of sight.

Edit: also I still don't understand this fixation about "zooming out ruins competitive play" it's like saying that running a marathon with your legs chopped off is more competitive since it's harder and you have more limitations, while I'm quite sure that even with your legs intact a good training, skill and effort would make all the difference anyway.

I'm all for haveing the camera zoomed out some also. I dont see how zooming out to around 2000 really effects the gameplay all that much. People getting ganked still are getting swarmed by numbers and stuns not because they didn't see the guy walk right next to him and start attacking. Also the trees still keep people in the fog so i dont really see why allowing people zoom out some is a big deal. That bit of zoom seems to make moving around alot easier while not giving people a huge sight difference.

[Mr_Fix_It]

Same here, I'm not really against double the distance, but I feel like a 1.3 to 1.5 times what is now is a nice middle point between targeting precision and area of sight.

Edit: also I still don't understand this fixation about "zooming out ruins competitive play" it's like saying that running a marathon with your legs chopped off is more competitive since it's harder and you have more limitations, while I'm quite sure that even with your legs intact a good training, skill and effort would make all the difference anyway.

Archery must now be done blind folded, to increase competitive play.
Swimmers must only swim with one leg, to increase competitive play.

:D I could go on like that forever.


It comes down to two arguments, Is HoN/Dota a game in which tactics and outthinking your opponents are key to victory, or being able to manipulate a camera around?.

If the game is truly tactics based, any zoom will do nothing to change the game (except maybe zooming in on your heroes foot). Good players will be able to outthink opponents, noobs will still be ambushed.

Frankly as a noob to dota etc. The camera view in HoN feels cramped. The model sizes are too large, especially when i played as the evil guys. It feels abit like the camera doesn't know what game it's playing. The "zoom" level (sizes of the characters etc), feels like that of a 3rd person game, however on one team the camera is facing the wrong way, and you can move it around.

So it's either a broken 3rd person camera, or a smushed up RTS camera (in a game that gives you one unit).

Keep in mind, i'm a noob, didn't play much dota, so i'm more of the general public who will buy this game when it comes out. but probably not as the camera drives me insane.

[HuMAn_INsANe]

To be honest, I have wanted this change for a while, before I even played DotA. 6 years ago I started playing Warcraft III and 3 years ago I started playing DotA. I absolutely hate first person shooter games because of the camera. I am sure many of you would agree, you would know someone was behind you because you have ears! Not only that, but the limited periferal vision sucks as well. After a while this complaint goes away. You no longer have a problem controlling the camera, simply because you have adjusted to the game. The same goes for War3, DotA and HoN. My opinion has changed over the years. The camera view is a vital part of this game, just like in any other game, especially first person shooters and real time strategy games.

Sorry to say it to all of those newer players, but this change will not happen. I haven't played an S2 game very long, but I can tell you from my time spent in this beta, they really listen to the people. Which is great, but not for those that are for this topic. From what I have read a good amount of people want the camera to be changed and a good amount of people want the camera the way it is. There is no majority vote here, it's a big risk for S2 to take, unless they wanted HoN to go in that direction. If S2 wanted HoN to have a larger camera view, they would have already put it in before the beta started.

The camera view distance has a big impact on gameplay. A lot of things would need to be redone if the camera was allowed to be zoomed out farther. If you think carefully, I am sure you will realize some of these things.

[Jayschwa]

DotA does it a certain way for a reason. GOOD COMPETITIVE RTS games also do it for a reason.
I expect this trend to change in the coming years. Locking the zoom is a holdover from the old 2D isometric days. Eventually, we'll probably have functionality similar to Google Earth (already found in some games like SupCom) - viewport is changed by zooming out and then zooming in somewhere else, rather than panning.


Sure they could allow everyone to zoom out as far they wanted, but it would just make the game easier.
Easier in the same sense that build queues, rally points, or hotkeys make the game easier. It reduces the meta-work required to interface with the game and allows more focus on the actual gameplay/mechanics.


Ganking would be harder
How so? People detect ganks with their minimap. We're not asking for minimap changes.

[reinis1]

@HuMAn_INsANe:

You say that you've gotten used to the WC3's camera controls. No one is disputing that it's possible. However, it doesn't mean that they're good. You can get used to anything, especially if you spend years on it.

I actually agree that it's unlikely for S2 to make any radical changes. There isn't much to make me think that they'd be up to the task. Up until now, most of what they've done could be called obvious. HoN is not a modernized version of DotA or DotA 2.0, it's more like DotA 1.5.

Before I get flamed, I realize that there are more ways to mess up a successful formula than to improve it. Look at Demigod: it sounds great on paper, and it's certainly a modern game, but it's no DotA. It's shallow and, in the end, not as fun to play. None of us would like for HoN to be like that. The question is, would making the camera controls more comfortable lead to such an outcome, or would it improve the game? You haven't answered this. You've just pointed out that, given years of practice, you can get used to anything; that the question is somewhat controversial; and that making big changes wouldn't be easy for S2.

[FiNGERS]

How so? People detect ganks with their minimap. We're not asking for minimap changes.

You almost had me until I read this one. Let's say you're mid solo focusing on farming, you just called mid MIA and are taking the time to get some free farm time in, oh wait, 2 heroes just came from behind you because you had your camera on the creep wave. This is just a hypothetical situation.

Honestly I thought the camera was a little tight when I first started playing, and they adjusted it somewhat. I noticed the difference immediately. If they choose to adjust it again, fine by me. I'm not against the idea of having more vision, I always wished I could zoom out more when I was playing DotA. I just can't see it getting changed and once you're used to it, it's fine. I had to get used to it, and so should you.

Give everyone the option to zoom out so they can see the whole map at once so we can all go out and buy our 40" monitors to get the advantage on people using their 14" laptop screen. Happy now?

[corpsious]

@Jayschwa

And now you're trying to persuade people who've staked their claim in competent meta-work that meta-work is a bad thing and/or should be removed. That's a value judgment, you can't say it as if it's fact.

IMO, starcraft was to warcraft 3 as playing the guitar is to making music in a sound sequencer with pre-recorded clips. Starcraft focussed much more on manual dexterity, while warcraft was more about fiddling around with armour types. (on the meta-work issue, not the camera issue)

So my 2c: if you want to play chess, go and play chess. If you want to play an rts-rpg-rtfps thingy which is still thankfully slightly action oriented, learn to pan the map dexterously. If we got 2x more zoom, you know how much less invested in the game you'd feel? Comfortable zoom would be about 30% further out than it is currently and you'd have perfect peripheral information etc. Ugh. As it is, the synergy between the limited locational information provided by the map and the actual which-heroes-are-present, what's-happening information /which takes you away from your hero/ as provided by the main window is awesome. Please don't kill it.

That said, I don't really have a huge problem if some people want to trivialize one of the (imo) better points of this game. Just make sure the current zoom level remains an option.

[mickross]

Why not make it a map setting option for hosts?

Definitley need zoom, play with the fog of war if you have to, do something, but zoom must happen.

It wont make things easier at all, imo if you get ganked on full zoom your going to waste more time zooming in to get any real control of the action then you would currently. Its definitley not something thats going to make n00bs pro lol, I mean if your that scared your obviously not that good.

[FluffyM]

I'm sorry, why is there a poll for this?

It's freaking 2009... If you want outdated gameplay go play in the Warcraft 3 engine. The whole point of HoN is improving DotA by using a new engine's capabilities.
/thread

[zzSleeper]

I'm sorry, why is there a poll for this?

It's freaking 2009... If you want outdated gameplay go play in the Warcraft 3 engine. The whole point of HoN is improving DotA by using a new engine's capabilities.
Agreed.

[Just0rz]

I think there should be a 10 - 15% offset on which you can zoom in or out of the current value. Things tend to get big in a full 5 v 5 fight and you might not catch everything in all that mess.

I doubt anyone would zoom in, but it's nice to have the possibility.

[Pengwin]

In my opinion the current zoom isnt enough. Right now there is less max zoom than in DotA. That makes especially teamfight difficult to observe. I think there should be a slightly increased max zoom to be able to catch the full fight on screen.
The graphics are supperior to DotA, but DotA is easier to observe due effects and graphics look really simple compared to HoN. Those effects decrease clearness a bit in HoN, but i dont think they were made for being switched off. The clearness in DotA was given by being simple and having a good zoom, that could observe a full teamfight. Thats why i think the zoom should be increased. Its need to compensated the slight lack of clearness.

[raiz265]

How so? People detect ganks with their minimap. We're not asking for minimap changes.

many people don't. increasing the view distance would make up for their carelessness

[Jayschwa]

Let's say you're mid solo focusing on farming, you just called mid MIA and are taking the time to get some free farm time in, oh wait, 2 heroes just came from behind you because you had your camera on the creep wave.
Fog of war is still the main factor here, at least for me. If I'm zoomed out and they stay within the fog, I won't notice them and they can still jump out and catch me. If I'm zoomed in and they come out of the fog for a split second, I'll notice enemy heroes popping in and out on the minimap and then decide what to do. The main things for me is having more room to click around.


Give everyone the option to zoom out so they can see the whole map at once so we can all go out and buy our 40" monitors to get the advantage on people using their 14" laptop screen. Happy now?
A 10-20% increase would be fine, IMO. With the max zoom unlocked, I tend to do 2000 (default is 1750, I think).


IMO, starcraft was to warcraft 3 as playing the guitar is to making music in a sound sequencer with pre-recorded clips. Starcraft focussed much more on manual dexterity, while warcraft was more about fiddling around with armour types.
I like the Starcraft universe better, but I liked the interface improvements added to WC3. I'd like the interface to be as transparent as possible so that I can spend more time thinking about tactics and unit counters rather than control group limits and such. I don't really see the point in trying to keep manual dexterity in computer games. That sort of thing seems best left to guitar hero, or DDR, or some other game that centers around physical movement.

[Aroddo]

To me even maxzoom of 2000 isn't enough. But I'm spoiled by Demigod.
And when I offered the option "Twice the current height" I meant 4000, not 3500. :)

Looks like the fundamentalists decided that they can't ignore this issue anymore. 20 votes for "No change" is pretty significant, although clearly outnumbered by the "double height zoom" faction (more than half of all voters).

Camera rotation is popular among at least a third of all voters.
Camera tilt scores 25%, same as "no change".

While zoom and rotation affect gameplay, tilt is more of a convenience feature. Admit it, you occasonally want to view the battle from sideways. If only to make cool battle scene pown videos.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5760/bild1ncj.png (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhAbH3N9cKU&hd=1)
^_^

PS: The whitish stuff represents the fog of war. And all maps on DG are specifically made "tilt-compatible", which may be a problem for the map designers of HoN.

[Karmashock]

There's no good argument for fixing camera position into a close locked position besides unimaginative complete mimicry of dota even in it's flaws.

[Elmy]

There's no good argument for fixing camera position into a close locked position besides unimaginative complete mimicry of dota even in it's flaws.

And there's no reason to change something that's been in place for 7 years. Explain to me how your argument is better than the one I just stated.

[Osiris]

And there's no reason to change something that's been in place for 7 years.

What do you think is the point of HoN then?

[Elmy]

What do you think is the point of HoN then?

I'll tell you one point that it shouldn't be.

Changing the fundamental gameplay of a game that's only increased in popularity over the years.

If you don't understand that the camera zoom is part of the fundamental gameplay, then I've wasted my breath throughout this entire thread.

[Osiris]

If you don't understand that the camera zoom is part of the fundamental gameplay, then I've wasted my breath throughout this entire thread.

People like FiNGERS have already tried to explain me why they think the crappy camera is part of the gameplay and I still think they are wrong. 30% more camera distance won't kill the need of map awareness and, as you should know, the element of surprise in ganging is a result of the fog of war and not the hope, that your target player has placed his camera in a bad position.

[edxs]

If you don't understand that the camera zoom is part of the fundamental gameplay, then I've wasted my breath throughout this entire thread.

I'm pretty curious why you think this, camera zoom is far removed from "fundamental gameplay" in my mind. Camera zoom is comparable to things like minimap coloring and the HUD.

[corpsious]

I like the Starcraft universe better, but I liked the interface improvements added to WC3. I'd like the interface to be as transparent as possible so that I can spend more time thinking about tactics and unit counters rather than control group limits and such. I don't really see the point in trying to keep manual dexterity in computer games. That sort of thing seems best left to guitar hero, or DDR, or some other game that centers around physical movement.

That's your opinion. It might be mine too. It's irrelevant when faced with zillions of dota stalwarts who have pleasure neurons wired to the act of mastery of making do with limited peripheral vision and aggressively microing viewport position, one of the most noticeable effects of well-practiced feats of manual dexterity. And I think most HoN players, beta and post-release will be dota stalwarts (open to debate on that one.)

[Aroddo]

And there's no reason to change something that's been in place for 7 years. Explain to me how your argument is better than the one I just stated.

"Wheels, pfwah! Feet were good enough for my ancestors, why should we change?"

"Yah! And that fire thing is for noobs, too. Nothing beats eating flesh raw."

"QFT! Whe should never have left the trees..."

"Trees? Even leaving the ocean was a mistake."

[Diomeneus]

My vote is for a ability to zoom out more.

[Elmy]

"Wheels, pfwah! Feet were good enough for my ancestors, why should we change?"

"Yah! And that fire thing is for noobs, too. Nothing beats eating flesh raw."

"QFT! Whe should never have left the trees..."

"Trees? Even leaving the ocean was a mistake."


Juvenile. I was comparing my statement to his, to indicate that neither are helpful towards the argument. Things are the way they are because it's been proven to work. IceFrog has had the ability to change the camera zoom, and has chosen not too. Comparing evolution and scientific development to this is... ridiculous at best.

@ edxs; Map awareness is one of the key aspects of this game. The camera zoom as it is increases the need for map awareness. Ask any good DotA player what they say is required to be a 'good' DotA player. Map awareness will always be one of the qualities. This does not only include the mini-map, but the ability to not get too engrossed in what you are doing (last hitting, harassing, etc) to let yourself be distracted and not see what is happening behind you.

[awesomesauc1]

Last post.

DotA does it a certain way for a reason. GOOD COMPETITIVE RTS games also do it for a reason. Sure they could allow everyone to zoom out as far they wanted, but it would just make the game easier. Ganking would be harder, farming for days would be easier. Let's not farm for days like the early 6.xx days. I have not heard 1 solid argument to support zooming out besides the fact it would 'make the game easier/comfortable'. Let's push our comfort zones a little shall we? The only limitations one has are the limitations one puts on oneself. This is DotA/HoN, not 'The Sims'.

DotA does it that way because WCIII did it that way, not because it was the best camera for this style of game. Ganking would not be harder, because the minimap is basically a full map view, so expanding it so that you can actually see the models instead of colored dots makes no difference. I don't like the idea of a full map view(thats what the minimap is for) however, i would like a larger view to be able to see a whole teamfight because as it is, if there is a 5v5 around a tower, you can see maybe half the people.

This whole argument boils down to one thing and only one thing. Change and the simple fear of it versus those that embrace it.

Those against increased zoom are afraid of what it could change in the game. They have no hard proof it will ruin the game. Only conjecture and their belief it will ruin it. We also have those that are all for change. They see no harm in more zoom. They also have no proof it will benefit the game.

In the end really we'll never know whether more zoom will be detrimental or help alleviate some of the irritation with the game. The only reason for this is because people are afraid to give it a try. :)

[Aroddo]

I really want to know this:

If zoom and free camera control were introduced, would those against this avoid using these features ... because it's more fun and because they can? Or would they abandon HoN because now others than them can have fun, too?

[FiNGERS]

I really want to know this:

If zoom and free camera control were introduced, would those against this avoid using these features ... because it's more fun and because they can? Or would they abandon HoN because now others than them can have fun, too?

You would be forced to either play at the max zoom level or be at a disadvantage. Nobody 'zooms in'. The main problem with free-zoom is people with bigger, better computers are always going to have the advantage over people still using their 14" CRT.

[Aroddo]

You would be forced to either play at the max zoom level or be at a disadvantage. Nobody 'zooms in'. The main problem with free-zoom is people with bigger, better computers are always going to have the advantage over people still using their 14" CRT.
You surely do zoom in. hard to aim otherwise.
And most people have 15'' displays by now.

[FiNGERS]

You surely do zoom in. hard to aim otherwise.
And most people have 15'' displays by now.

This post proves my point.

It's not hard to aim if your monitor is big enough to make a higher level of zoom comfortable to play in. People with bigger monitors = sizable advantage over those with smaller screens if you allow the current level of zoom to be changed. Nobody zooms in while playing HoN or DotA.

[OverloadUT]

Although I have very strong opinions on this, I will refrain from arguing them because people in this thread have already said many times exactly how I feel. I just want to throw my vote in there for S2 allowing you to zoom the camera WAY further out.

Calling a restricted camera part of the gameplay experience is stupid in a game where there already is line of sight and fog of war. Let the actual tangible mechanics dictate the depth, not the means by which you control your game.

[Techies]

g_camdistanceMax 1800

I always type in before I play, that's just how I want the camera. I could up it a little but it just doesn't feel right, the more you zoom out the harder it is to judge distance of spells and to click on units. Also still find myself caught off guard a lot simply because you can't concentrate on the whole screen. you always concentrate on some areas more than others.

Increasing the zoom level by about 250 units will only make the game better for most.

PS.
Think I used 1850 before the model size decrease (Kraken is still HUGE btw...)

[FiNGERS]

Let the actual tangible mechanics dictate the depth, not the means by which you control your game.

See my post above yours. Do you want this game to include skill, or do you want the person with the most $$ or best gaming setup to win?

[OverloadUT]

See my post above yours. Do you want this game to include skill, or do you want the person with the most $$ or best gaming setup to win?

I believe you are vastly overestimating how much a difference it will make between having 1280x1024 and 1920x1200.

Someone's physical setup already does make a difference because of framerate and internet connection latency. People with shitty computers have to play on a lower resolution which gives them a disadvantage because they don't get as much information cleanly on the screen at once. This is a reality of video gaming. That being said, the difference between those resolutions would not make as big a difference as you think.

And finally, if you really think your statement is true ("If unlimited zoom is allowed, someone with more money will win and the game will not include skill") then you must think this is the worst designed game in existence. You seem to be saying that pretty much all skill in this game comes from the locked zoom level. That's absurd.

The game already has line of sight. THAT should be what dictates what you can and cannot see. There is a huge amount of depth of strategy using line of sight.

Also have you ever played with g_camdistanceMax set so high that you can see the entire map at once? I have. The game is unplayable when it's that far zoomed out, even on my huge monitor. But it's still nice to quickly zoom out, see what the state of affairs looks like, and then zoom back in to where I need to concentrate on the action. During actual tactical play I would leave it zoomed only slightly out from the default; any more and it's too difficult to differentiate between friendly and enemy units and pick up on the nuances of battle.

[Osiris]

This post proves my point.

It's not hard to aim if your monitor is big enough to make a higher level of zoom comfortable to play in. People with bigger monitors = sizable advantage over those with smaller screens if you allow the current level of zoom to be changed. Nobody zooms in while playing HoN or DotA.

High resolution in HoN doesn't scale your field of view. I fail to see how a higher zooming level would give players with a huge monitor more of an advange over people with a 15'' than it does right now.

[mickross]

Look at the votes people, this argument is decided...

FIX THE CAMERA (smirk)

[FiNGERS]

High resolution in HoN doesn't scale your field of view. I fail to see how a higher zooming level would give players with a huge monitor more of an advange over people with a 15'' than it does right now.

I fail to see how you can be so ignorant. Let's pretend for a second that the max zoom is actually increased to double it's current height.

Player A has a 15" CRT, and is at the highest zoom available. However he can't see **** because zooming out makes everything so small (eg Is that N'aix or just a creep?). He also can't reliably click on anything because everything is so small(and his mouse sucks) and teamfights usually mean about 10 players sitting on top of one another.

Player B has a 22" widescreen monitor and has none of these problems because everything is so much bigger due to having a bigger viewing space. He also has a good laser corded mouse with perfect pinpoint accuracy.

This isn't about native resolution. It's about the size of things on the screen and how about having better technology/equipment can easily give you an advantage.

[edxs]

Player A has a 15" CRT, and is at the highest zoom available. However he can't see **** because zooming out makes everything so small (eg Is that N'aix or just a creep?). He also can't reliably click on anything because everything is so small(and his mouse sucks) and teamfights usually mean about 10 players sitting on top of one another.

Player B has a 22" widescreen monitor and has none of these problems because everything is so much bigger due to having a bigger viewing space. He also has a good laser corded mouse with perfect pinpoint accuracy.

If people care, they move their monitor closer/farther away until they are comfortable. Monitor size doesn't actually mean much for gaming.

[Aroddo]

Finger sounds like he objects to anyone having better hardware than he does...
Hard to argue against that mindset. Next thing he demands a game filter taking display size and resolution in account ...

when winning and losing becomes more important than having fun, no change is wanted, no innovation welcome.

[Karmashock]

And there's no reason to change something that's been in place for 7 years.
Says a guy on the internet. :rolleyes:

Please turn your computer off, turn off your electricity, and climb a tree.:D

Or admit you said something stupid.


Or just be a total and complete hypocrite... you know... which ever you prefer... there are no other options.


I'll assume you chose option 2 or 3 if you say nothing.



If people want an enhanced modern interface instead of some crapped primitive interface then why do you care? Look, all that should matter to you is if you can get super close to a unit and pretend like it's 2001 all over again. I support your interest in keeping things the way they were. I also support people that want something superior as well. There's no reason why we can't both get what we want. What you're effectively advocating is that other people be forced to cope with the limitations you like. They're not going to accept that.


What's more, because the interface is moddable... even if you won this argument, we'd just hack the interface after the fact to be what we want anyway.

So there is no argument. There is literally no way we'll be forced into that interface. It's over.


I'm going to repeat this one more time just because I think it has to made clear. The interface is moddable. I, and hundreds... perhaps thousands of other players will hack the interface if we have to do that. All the best players will eventually do it because it is superior. There is no argument. It is OVER. It will happen. It is enviable. Complaining about it is like a cattle rancher complaining about the rail road. Get over it or be ridiculous. Your choice.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[ZepherX]

Hey guys, along with zooming out to make everything easier, lets also take away fog and towers so we can get to the bases and win faster.

We should also add an insta-kill nuke to every character and a rotating camera.




Cmon guys, if everything in this game was perfectly comfortable, no one would like it. Its the hard things and getting used to that makes it so fun and enjoyable.

If you want to learn the game, it takes less than a week if you pay attention.
Please don't change the game.

Oh, i never played DotA and started last week.

[FiNGERS]

Hey guys, along with zooming out to make everything easier, lets also take away fog and towers so we can get to the bases and win faster.

We should also add an insta-kill nuke to every character and a rotating camera.




Cmon guys, if everything in this game was perfectly comfortable, no one would like it. Its the hard things and getting used to that makes it so fun and enjoyable.

If you want to learn the game, it takes less than a week if you pay attention.
Please don't change the game.

Oh, i never played DotA and started last week.

I wish there were more like you, sir.

[Elmy]

Says a guy on the internet. :rolleyes:

Please turn your computer off, turn off your electricity, and climb a tree.:D

Or admit you said something stupid.


Or just be a total and complete hypocrite... you know... which ever you prefer... there are no other options.


I'll assume you chose option 2 or 3 if you say nothing.



If people want an enhanced modern interface instead of some crapped primitive interface then why do you care? Look, all that should matter to you is if you can get super close to a unit and pretend like it's 2001 all over again. I support your interest in keeping things the way they were. I also support people that want something superior as well. There's no reason why we can't both get what we want. What you're effectively advocating is that other people be forced to cope with the limitations you like. They're not going to accept that.


What's more, because the interface is moddable... even if you won this argument, we'd just hack the interface after the fact to be what we want anyway.

So there is no argument. There is literally no way we'll be forced into that interface. It's over.


I'm going to repeat this one more time just because I think it has to made clear. The interface is moddable. I, and hundreds... perhaps thousands of other players will hack the interface if we have to do that. All the best players will eventually do it because it is superior. There is no argument. It is OVER. It will happen. It is enviable. Complaining about it is like a cattle rancher complaining about the rail road. Get over it or be ridiculous. Your choice.

Love and peace, Karmashock.


Retarded. If you read my next post, you would see that I said in that line was in comparison to yours just to show how completely worthless your previous comment was. As was mine, contributing nothing to the discussion. Nice rant, though. Almost made me chuckle with your 'options'. Almost. If only you were smart enough to actually understand... I figured that with your extensive S2 forums trolling, you could keep up. I always make the mistake of overestimating people.

The only reason that people would resort to it is because it is evidently better as it reduces the need for map awareness and generally makes you more aware of your surroundings. 2 things which make one player better than another! Gone just like that. Another skill factor. That's not super complicated to understand, is it? Or am I once again overestimating you?

I hope that if you modders go ahead with this hacking of the interface, depending on S2's final decision which may very well be to increase the zoom, that S2 will take the appropriate steps towards all of you. How could you even consider using something that would be relatively just as bad as maphack?

a rotating camera.

Win. Hands down. I'll take a rotating camera thank you very much. Though I'll also take another 200 units of zoom too. ;)

[reinis1]

Its the hard things and getting used to that makes it so fun and enjoyable.
There is a game I think you would enjoy more than HoN. It's called DotA. HoN happens to be less about these hard things you so love and takes less serious getting used to. It's the whole point of the remake.

[FiNGERS]

HoN happens to be less about these hard things you so love and takes less serious getting used to.

Says who? Find me the post and I'll uninstall HoN.

[reinis1]

Says who? Find me the post and I'll uninstall HoN.
Do I really need to answer that? Among other things, S2 has simplified skill hotkeys, shops, and hero selection. All these features are considerably less comfortable in DotA, and all of your arguments about "skill factors" apply equally well to them too. For instance, using QWER takes less skill and less getting used to than the hotkeys in DotA. S2 is also continuing to make similar changes, like moving the shop tooltips in the upcoming patch.

Can you see a pattern in there? It all fits with their stated intent to break away from the limitations of WC3's engine. If you need reassurance, read the front page of this site again.

You may uninstall HoN now.

[OverloadUT]

Yeah, no kidding. The entire point of HoN is to make the game less clunky, and therefore less uncomfortable, by being outside of the War3 engine.

[Elmy]

Do I really need to answer that? Among other things, S2 has simplified skill hotkeys, shops, and hero selection. All these features are considerably less comfortable in DotA, and all of your arguments about "skill factors" apply equally well to them too. For instance, using QWER takes less skill and less getting used to than the hotkeys in DotA. S2 is also continuing to make similar changes, like moving the shop tooltips in the upcoming patch.

Can you see a pattern in there? It all fits with their stated intent to break away from the limitations of WC3's engine. If you need reassurance, read the front page of this site again.

You may uninstall HoN now.

I still tend to press DotA keys instead of QWER. They are actually very intuitive, except maybe 1 or 2.

However, S2 has specifically stated that they have no interest in making this game any easier for newcomers for a long time to come. So, I'm sorry, but you lose. As is, everything you stated is not really 'easier'. Just more 'convenient'.

[reinis1]

As is, everything you stated is not really 'easier'. Just more 'convenient'.
Convenience is something that adds to one's ease. This is a non-distinction. See any dictionary.

Also, S2 has already made the game easier. It's you who loses, unless you intend to say that they did it by accident.

[Elmy]

Convenience is something that adds to one's ease. This is a non-distinction. See any dictionary.

Also, S2 has already made the game easier. It's you who loses, unless you intend to say that they did it by accident.

Alright, then, let me re-phrase.

Using DotA's shop system compared to HoN's makes no difference to me. (HoN is actually kind of clunky to me). I won't put any faith in the new system until I see it.

Hotkeys? The only reason I don't change them to fit as they should in DotA is because it's annoying. DotA keys felt... right. I made a set of keys because I had too.

Wow, I actually thought you had more points. Guess your post was pretty short-sighted, after all.

[reinis1]

I think I'll just leave it up to others to judge whose position is more sound. Not much use in talking to someone who just spouts whatever he wants.

[Elmy]

I think I'll just leave it up to others to judge whose position is more sound. Not much use in talking to someone who just spouts whatever he wants.


It's impossible for our side to win, heh. Any of us can see the losing fight from miles away. Too little of us understand just how important it is. It's like a competitive-level player comparing notes with a -em pub player. People new to HoN are using the console command, and the noobs from DotA (90-95% of players) will all be for making things easier on them.

So, it's a losing fight. The 20 or so people that voted for no change aren't arguying because they know how pointless it is. I just have nothing better to do and am trying to distract myself. The arguments you can't win are always the most fun.

[reinis1]

Right, everyone who disagrees is a noob and not qualified to comprehend your point of view.

[FiNGERS]

If you want to learn the game, it takes less than a week if you pay attention.
Please don't change the game.

Oh, i never played DotA and started last week.


Right, everyone who disagrees is a noob and not qualified to comprehend your point of view.

Wrong.

[reinis1]

Read my post carefully. I didn't say "all noobs disagree".

[Nightblade1]

To me it seems like people arguing that the camera should remain at the current fixed max height is like arguing a modern FPS shouldn't have mouselook because 15 years ago people used the arrow keys to move and look around.

Bad controls does not make a game deep.

[BlacRyu]

No more analogies anyone, please :(

[ZepherX]

To me it seems like people arguing that the camera should remain at the current fixed max height is like arguing a modern FPS shouldn't have mouselook because 15 years ago people used the arrow keys to move and look around.

Bad controls does not make a game deep.

HoN should have a fixed camera view just as Starcraft II should. Its just the right thing to do.

Its how the game should be played.


Now considering how far it goes out? Have you ever watched ANY modern scary movie where its always close up so things can pop out better? Well thats what it adds to this game.
Suspense.

If you saw the monster coming for the girl 3 minutes before she screamed it would be stupid.

I really hope you guys can accept this and realize that all the amazing blizzard games that are timeless have been fixed camera. Ex: Diablo 2, Starcraft, Warcraft.
WoW even has its limits, but its a totally different kind of game and it is much more vast.

[Bastila]

HoN should have a fixed camera view just as Starcraft II should. Its just the right thing to do.

Its how the game should be played.


Now considering how far it goes out? Have you ever watched ANY modern scary movie where its always close up so things can pop out better? Well thats what it adds to this game.
Suspense.

If you saw the monster coming for the girl 3 minutes before she screamed it would be stupid.

I really hope you guys can accept this and realize that all the amazing blizzard games that are timeless have been fixed camera. Ex: Diablo 2, Starcraft, Warcraft.
WoW even has its limits, but its a totally different kind of game and it is much more vast.

He's correct. It's PART of the gameplay of DOTA and thus HoN as well.

You have a minimap on the bottom... learn to use it.

Giving the ability to see the entire map etc is simply silly.

Now I don't object to "angle" changes for those who simply want to play a map with a different perspective.

[Aroddo]

Add some really small heroes. Like killer smurfs or gnome assassins. That puts those us zoom lovers at a disadvantage and dota fundamentalists back to nearsighted levels.

everyone is happy.

[HellFire69]

I personally wasn't a big fan of all the camera maneuverability in Demigod and prefer the DotA/HoN set up.

[SkyWolf]

Not like demigod, but also not like now. I mean... Fixed angle and rotation is ok, but when it comes to zoom i would like a bit more capacity (maybe twice? Or less). If that won't happen, its fairly good as it is.

[Tass1]

Well, why cripple others so they have to use the same you like? Just let us zoom as much as the engine allows to.

[FALLENLEGION]

horrid idea, ruins the aspects of juking, reduced you looking at the minimap, remember this, they totally copied dota, was allowed this isnt a diss, the same rules apply

[Falk`]

It should get some higher range, but not twice, that's too much.
Something like 20 or 30% increase would be perfect

[Techies]

g_CamDistanceMax 1850

That's all I need...

[Folly]

We already have the minimap. Zooming out would not reveal any new information, it would just save our eyes the strain of constantly flickering back and forth from that little square in the corner.

[Techies]

Created a new poll here.
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=8167

It's to to kinda solve the current problem, instead of being vague on how far you can zoom and theorising how it will impact the game I think it's best to actually try it and get more precise results. Maybe just a little bit of zoom extra will keep most happy.

[Destro]

I'm going to take the side of

"Please, make it so I can zoom out! I don't need to see half the map. However, a 50% increase in zooming out would be awesome."

I think it's necessary to appeal to the Old Dota Vets as well as the new generation of players.

[Deepjay]

Imo it needs to allow a little more zoom. While it's a dota clone, it's not dota. It wont kill people to have a little more screen real estate.

[DropX]

1 word. Minimap. Learn it, love it, use it.

[Mazuli]

HoN supports widescreen (16:9, 16:10, etc) and normal 4:3. People with widescreen can already see more on their screen. On warcraft 3 everyone is stuck with the same aspect ratio (it's just stretched on widescreen monitors). Because the playing field is even on warcraft 3, the camera is fixed. The playing field is not even on HoN so I don't see any reason why people shouldn't be allowed zoom the camera out to a comfortable but reasonable distance. It doesn't have to be anything drastic, certainly no more than your unit's field of vision, but at least a little more than how it is right now would be nice.

Also, I love how people who are against the camera zooming say you don't need it because you have the minimap and arrow keys. If they have mastered that then it shouldn't matter if people can zoom until they see the entire map. They just don't like making anything more convenient for other players if they didn't have it when they were first playing. I'm really glad Blizzard isn't catering to the small, hardcore starcraft fans who don't want any new features such as auto mining and limitless unit selection.

[SoleSurvivor]

Unlimited zoom (god eye zoom, like Demigod). perfect =p

[Secron]

Simple - allowing more zoom will unbalance the game. The game is balanced around the view the current camera gives. It worked fine in DotA, it works fine in HoN.

EDIT: Rotation would be fine, NOT tilt as that would allow you to see far distances.

[AzgoreOrdrin]

true but still liked the zoom in say warlocks

[IAmRoot]

I'm moving this to the interface and feature discussion forum.

For a discussion on the previous camera settings, see this (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=655) thread (includes official opinion).

[HeavySoul]

No tilt, temporary rotation only - so as not to mix up the "directions" on the map.

On zoom, sure. Does it help me when I'm ganking a new player who isn't used to checking the minimap to not have slightly greater zoom, sure. Slightly...barely. That doesn't change the fact that it's a limitation. It was a WC3 engine limitation, not a choice. DotA would have been better with a bit higher view (20-30% or so?). HoN will be better too.

If you don't want to play a beta with the map more zoomed out, don't. Enjoy your l337 status as a true player. This is the time to test it. Maybe we'll all try it and it will blow, but it's a beta - now's the time.

[Tupimus]

I didn't see this in the poll nor do I know has this been said already, but I'd like the max zoom increased slightly. The current one is a tad closer than in DotA.

[somonels]

This is another Old vs New players issue.
Having more zoom does not imbalance the game, it just makes a portion of the Old player's 'skill' less useful. Tilt and rotation's usefulness is rather situational depending on your camera pointing the right way.
I'd want all three, I can't make good videos dans ces conditions.

[Occ1]

I can understand the vets wanting the camera to stay the same, but... look. Starcraft. Amazingly well balanced right? To attribute the screen size/zoom to anything more than a minor part of what makes it competitively balanced seems apologist at best, and unreasonably fundamentalist at worst.

The problem I see with camera rotation is most people are going to want to have the mini-map rotate in relation to their position/rotation, which will mess up calls (bot, and top could easily be mixed up). A possible solution would be to include a small compass inside the minimap (so then you'd call North or South), or possibly attached to the top corner on the edge.

As for controls, scroll zoom, middle mouse click for rotate, and ctrl+middle mouse click for tilt. If done right you could make it seem like a 3rd person kind of affair. Alt+c to toggle camera centered on hero (I notice there is an option for this, but it is always greyed out currently, and it would be useful to be able to change on the fly - its ok as it is now though). I would definitely like to be able to easily zoom out some more, but can live with it as it exists currently.

Anyway, it would be cool if the things in HoN were a bit more to scale; as it is the heroes are like half the size of the towers. I suppose bigger towers/buildings would cause visibility complications, which could be solved, but might take a significant amount of effort. Would make things much more epic though.

[EnragedCamel]

From a sample of almost 300 people, less than 25% of people have said that the camera is fine the way it is.

Which means that it is not fine.

If a game is balanced around the limitations of another game's engine... that's flawed, lazy design.

This game may be based off of DOTA but that cannot be used as a justification for making every single thing the way it was in DOTA, because DOTA was far from perfect (I'm laughing at people who even suggested that DOTA was balanced. Seriously, what world do you live in? Certainly not this one).

I mean, if you follow that argument, some heroes are ported exactly, but others are changed, and brand new ones have been and will be added as well.

What does this mean? It means that this game is not DOTA. It is HoN. Being against a suggestion simply because it was not that way in DOTA is incredibly retarded.

[Soulspawn]

since this it multiply choose we will take the largest number the thing is the first 3 effect nothing in game which mean 30% like the camera 47% would like more zoom out but i believe double FAR to much extra

[Barter]

since this it multiply choose we will take the largest number the thing is the first 3 effect nothing in game which mean 30% like the camera 47% would like more zoom out but i believe double FAR to much extra
But double camera height doesnt mean you are going to see 2 screens worth of terrain, but yeah ~30% more is fine (1650 -> ~2100).

As you can see by ss its only just a little more terrain and feels so much better.

Default:
http://imgur.com/tJfUv.jpg

2100:
http://imgur.com/qCBbc.jpg

[tre]

The current limit certainly needs to be changed; it's far too low.

[Gage]

I couldn't agree more with the vast majority of players. The camera feels artificially zoomed in. It's well known in the development community that struggling with the camera is a major source of player irritation.

Well over 70% of the people DO NOT want the default camera, they all want a little more space to maneourve.

A two thirds majority is enough for any change in politics. Let's just give the people what they want?

[Rokman]

Ctrl+F8, g_camDistanceMax 2100.

play a private 1v1 game with that and you'll see it's only like 5-10% farther out than the cap is default.

At 2100, 1) the game actually looks like it has better graphics 2) you can see more but not too much, enough were you still need mini map awareness and finally 3) i dont feel so claustrophobic, weird how just a tiny scroll out could make a huge difference.

[laserburn]

Please, please S2, let us unzoom a little more, 20% to 30% should be just fine. There just isn't enough room on a widescreen display, I can't even count the times I was ganked by a player just outside the vertical screen area. Even dota elitists that are worried that further zoom is going to upset their ganking skills are going to like it once they get used to it.

Also, minimap needs to be clearer, as it is right now it's hard to say which part is visible and which is in FOW. Pathways also are not clear enough.

[Nome]

You sound like one of those oldschool Starcraft pros that cry about the option to select more than one building in Starcraft II and therefore about the loss of an important feature of the game...

I've already said it and I say it again; increasing the games skill-level by making it less confortable to play is nothing S2 should aim for.

Usually I hate the Starcraft argument, but this time, FiNGERS is right--it's an integral part of the game. Minimap management and map awareness are extremely important for a lot of heroes. Certain heroes, like Valkyrie, actually 100% depend on it to be competitively viable.

[Barter]

Usually I hate the Starcraft argument, but this time, FiNGERS is right--it's an integral part of the game. Minimap management and map awareness are extremely important for a lot of heroes. Certain heroes, like Valkyrie, actually 100% depend on it to be competitively viable.
But if you look at the screenshots that I posted or test it yourself, you will see that from 1650 to 2100 there is not much change, its just a little less zoomed in, feels a lot better and you can't see the whole map, you can see the equivalent of ~100 more in-game distance on each side of the screen, wich is not much or enough to unbalance anything, but it feels better.

[Aroddo]

From a sample of almost 300 people, less than 25% of people have said that the camera is fine the way it is.

Which means that it is not fine.

If a game is balanced around the limitations of another game's engine... that's flawed, lazy design.



This is a quite significant vote and probably even representative.

Now it's up to S2 to actually give a fu<k.

[foob]

A few people that have posted in this thread from either side have said that the advantage of having a wider field of view is NOT the primary concern, but simply having more room to place move orders a little further ahead as the manic clicking needed to attempt an escape is a bit too OTT.

So a compromise would be the best solution? let people zoom the camera out as much as they like, but keep the Fog Of War obstructing the characters viewpoint past whatever it is that we can see now, i.e. have a darkened area that we can click to issue move orders, but that will not show ANYTHING game wise until it comes into the heros FOV, including creeps. This way everyone still has the same viewing area as everyone else, but can control thier camera distance to a comfortable distance to issue easier move orders.

*edit* also requesting an option to autolock heros to screen centre and have the camera follow, instead of me having to hold C all the time

[Techies]

A few people that have posted in this thread from either side have said that the advantage of having a wider field of view is NOT the primary concern, but simply having more room to place move orders a little further ahead as the manic clicking needed to attempt an escape is a bit too OTT.

So a compromise would be the best solution? let people zoom the camera out as much as they like, but keep the Fog Of War obstructing the characters viewpoint past whatever it is that we can see now, i.e. have a darkened area that we can click to issue move orders, but that will not show ANYTHING game wise until it comes into the heros FOV, including creeps. This way everyone still has the same viewing area as everyone else, but can control thier camera distance to a comfortable distance to issue easier move orders.

*edit* also requesting an option to autolock heros to screen centre and have the camera follow, instead of me having to hold C all the time

don't quite agree on the compromise, no need to overcomplicate things. Only 15% of people would be against any change anyways.

As for the camera follow, double tapping C to make the camera stick to you seems like a good enough solution?

[Aroddo]

any news on a sensible zoom by now?
or is it going to stay a ground hugger?

[EMPFireStorm]

everyone hit up the new poll in my signature and vote for a UI option for the zoom!!!

[OSVG]

There are two ways S2 can approach HoN
1) Make it for the smaller population of competitive players. Try and follow DotA as closely as possible. Just debugging DotA in a sense
2) Craft it for a larger population who are either completely new or returning softcore players. (however, new competitive players should arise)

Right now i think they are trying too hard to appeal to both. They say they want to break the mold of DotA; however, they are afraid of breaking DotA's mold.
They need to cater to one or the other imo. They are pissing almost everyone one off if they change a mechanic / logistic.

I'd prefer option 2 but option 2 is less reliable fan base than option 1.

Edit: a new post is saying screw it option 2

[reinis1]

The funniest part is how they released a trailer with the camera spinning around like it was Demigod. Not disingenuous at all.

[Nome]

Official opinion posted here:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=17534

As I said many times before, it's not only part of the game, but it DEFINES the game.

[tchiseen]

Better idea here: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=17541

[tchiseen]

There are two ways S2 can approach HoN
1) Make it for the smaller population of competitive players. Try and follow DotA as closely as possible. Just debugging DotA in a sense
2) Craft it for a larger population who are either completely new or returning softcore players. (however, new competitive players should arise)

Right now i think they are trying too hard to appeal to both. They say they want to break the mold of DotA; however, they are afraid of breaking DotA's mold.
They need to cater to one or the other imo. They are pissing almost everyone one off if they change a mechanic / logistic.

I'd prefer option 2 but option 2 is less reliable fan base than option 1.

Edit: a new post is saying screw it option 2

Yeah, they've basically said '**** making a good game, we're cloning dota and that's that'.

Look at the success other dota-clones have had by making their own take on it. Look at the kind of players that are attracted to Demigod. It's massively popular amongst my RTS-playing pals. HoN? Nobody takes it seriously because it's just a dota clone. If that's all it ever wants to be, I might as well go play dota.

[reinis1]

Official opinion posted here:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=17534

Wow, what a thread. Did they expect that rehashing old chestnuts will convince anyone? It basically said:
* It's fairer to gimp everyone than to allow people with good hardware to have an advantage
* DotA did it this way
* Slippery slope about making the game more comfortable
* We know best

And this bit:

We feel confident you'll come to the same conclusions about HoN if you give yourself the chance to get used to the current camera restrictions.
You can get used even to the stink of ****, given enough exposure. Doesn't mean that you'll start liking it.

[tchiseen]

Wow, what a thread. Did they expect that rehashing old chestnuts will convince anyone? It basically said:
* It's fairer to gimp everyone than to allow people with good hardware to have an advantage
* DotA did it this way
* Slippery slope about making the game more comfortable
* We know best

And this bit:

You can get used even to the stink of ****, given enough exposure. Doesn't mean that you'll start liking it.


This game reeks now.

[Nome]

I bought the game, I'm enjoying it, and plenty of other people are too.

Shrug.

[King_Yoshi]

I bought the game, I'm enjoying it, and plenty of other people are too.

Shrug.

I am a long time DOTA player, and honestly myself and many of those I know have been seriously thinking of jsut going back to the original DOTA..

Another point to bring up is that the scroll speed is a big problem in playing HON. In Wc3 I would move the mouse to the edge of the screen and would immediately, and with great speed, be scrolled in the direction the mouse went off the screen. In HON I find that the scroll speed is much slower, and impedes reaction speed, when trying to chase or back away.

This could be solved by either letting the camera zoom out more, or by increasing scroll speed. Neither of these can currently be modified in game past their current presets. (And please don't tell me you can zoom in more, that would be pointless information)

I am merely posting this as a concerned customer, and do not want this game to go down hill. I much prefer the graphics and sounds for this game over DOTA, but am losing my attachment to it as more and more of the people I know go back to the original DOTA.



Also, not to get personal, but you are a S2 Staff Member, it is your job to support the game. S2 is a pretty tight knit community, most of the staf would not be working for the company if they hated their job. (Please do not ask where I got this information from. Thank you.)

[Bangerz]

Necro much?

[Warchamp7]

It should also be noted that Nome wasn't a member of S2 when he made that post. Side effect of bumping a thread more than one year old.

Also, there is an option to increase scroll speed.