Predator - prey on the weak, feast on the strong

[Nedrapter]

I found out that there isn't any satisfactory guide about Predator so, I've decided to put forth all my energy into this futile attempt, and write one!
I hope you find it interesting, easy to read, or at least helpful.

Predator
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/39/icon_128.jpg

A brief description about Predator.
Predator is a STR hero with quite unique skills, some of them resemble Naix's in Dota, but that's only half of them. He is considered late game hero, but he can work out well in mid game as well, however requires some attention at early game. He is a pure damage dealer without any damaging spells, relies only on attacking and preying on his enemies.
For those who might be interested , here is , his background story:
With huge, lance-like claws of solid bone emerging from their forearms, and spikes fit to impale the strongest foe spread across their hard shell, Predators seem more like daemons than Beasts. The men who fight beside them look at them with recollected fear from the days the Predators hunted humans, not daemons. But the hunger, speed, and rage they bring to bear against the Hellbourne are a welcome boon.
I'll explain his skils in more detailed manner than the game does:

Venomous Leap:
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/39/ability1_128.jpg
The Predator leaps toward an enemy unit, then strikes them with venomous claws. The enemy takes some damage and is slowed briefly.
Type: Physical
Range: 650
Cast Time: 0.7 Seconds
Mana Cost: 90
Cooldown: 20.0 / 17.0 / 14.0 / 11.0 Seconds
Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Activation
Leaps toward target, dealing 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 Magic damage and applying Venomous for 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 seconds.
Venomous Effects
40% Movement Slow

That's what the game says.

My explanation, this skill make you jump to your target slowing them a lot and dealing some damage, helping you get closer to ranged heroes (since you are melee). It can work as the initiator of your spells, bringing you into combat range and slowing the target helping your allies to reach him. It has quite short cooldown on the 4th level that you should not hesitate to use it first. It also works on magic immune units, but the slow and the damage doesn't apply, you just leap to the target, which is quite useful sometimes.

Stone Hide
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/39/ability2_128.jpg
The Predator makes his hide like stone, granting him Magic Immunity, dispelling debuffs, and increasing his armor temporarily.

Action:Target Self
Cast Time: 0.1 Seconds
Mana Cost: 75
Cooldown: 15.0 Seconds
Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
Activation
Dispels debuffs and applies Stone Hide to self for 3 / 3.75 / 4.5 / 5.25 seconds.
Stone Hide Effects
Immunity Type: MagicImmunity1
3 / 6 / 9 / 12 Armor

That's maybe the most important skill for Predator. Good use of this results in a good Predator, bad use, results in a bad Predator, simple things. You can mess up with the other skills, but if you do with this one, you fail your game (more explanation about why later).This skill grants you Magical Immunity and boosts your physical armor as well for a maximum of 5.25 seconds. the colldown again is quite short meaning you can have it twice is many battles.

Carnivorous
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/39/ability3_128.jpg
The Predator feasts on his opponents flesh with each attack, allowing him to topple the mightiest warriors. Each attack damages opponents for a percentage of their current Health, and heals the Predator based on the damage dealt.

Passive
Required Level: 1 / 3 / 5 / 7
On Attack
Deals Physical damage to targets equal to 4 / 5 / 6 / 7% of their current Health and heals you for the same amount.
Does not work on Boss units.

Your source of damage. That's how Predator survives, kills and farms. Many confuse this skill with Lifesteal. No it's not Lifesteal, it may give you hp when you attack, but it doesn't steal life.It can deal huge amount of damage if your enemy is on full hp and has much life, and it can do pretty much anything if you enemy is low on hp.

Terror
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/39/ability4_128.jpg
The Predator roars, instilling terror in nearby enemies, reducing their armor. Allies who attack enemies affected by terror will receive increased attack and movement speed.

Action:Target Self
Type:Enemy Heroes
Type: Physical
Radius: 450
Cast Time: 1.0 Seconds
Mana Cost: 50 / 75 / 100
Cooldown: 60.0 Seconds
Required Level: 6 / 11 / 16
Activation
Applies Terror to targets in radius around self for 20 seconds.
Terror Effects
-2 / -4 / -6 Armor
When attacked, buffs attacker's attack speed by 20 / 40 / 60 and movement speed by 15% for 4.5 seconds

Terror is buff for your and your allies. Ensure that enemies wont go far alive and boosts your damage output. Since it works on area around you, it's better not to cast it for one running enemy but when you leap into a bunch of them.


I will begin with an item build guide and justify it later while explaining the gameplay of predator.
you start with 603 gold (meaning you didn't random predator and you are playing "All-heroes" mode) and you get these:
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_RunesOfTheBlight.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_LoggersHatchet.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_IronBuckler.jpg

When you get your 1st 900 gold, you start buying
In the following order, these:

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_HungrySpirit.jpg--http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Marchers.jpg--http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_ElderParasite.jpg--http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Punchdagger.jpg--http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Punchdagger.jpg

So basically up to now you got:

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_ElderParasite.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_LoggersHatchet.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_EnhancedMarchers.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_IronBuckler.jpg

The Runes of blight should no longer be there as you will have used them.
Your shopping list continues like this:

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Steamstaff.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_GlovesOfHaste.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_HelmOfTheVictim.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Insanitarius.jpg

Until here, this is your CORE ITEM build, should be the same on every of your Predator game since it doesn't result from your enemies choices, but rather from Predator's needs.

What to buy next?

Your next items are not core. What that means? That means you can alter them depending on your game's needs. However I've noticed that i rarely need to buy something else other than these:

One of these 2, not both.(explaining why later.)

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Pierce.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_StrengthAgility.jpg

And these.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Evasion.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Weapon3.jpg

So your final items would be these:

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_EnhancedMarchers.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Insanitarius.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_ElderParasite.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_StrengthAgility.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Weapon3.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Evasion.jpg

or these

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_EnhancedMarchers.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Insanitarius.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_ElderParasite.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Pierce.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Weapon3.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Evasion.jpg

Now the most crucial part of the itembuild in this guide. HOW Predator plays, WHY these items, WHY not others, HOW to utilize them.

Predator is very fragile at start, he cant last hit creeps easily and he can escape easily if ganked. So it's much more profitable for you and your team, to leave a 2nd lane to solo, and go jungling at neutral creeps.
So in order to help you jungling you level your skills like that:

1- Carnivorous
2- Venomous Leap
3- Carnivorous
4- Venomous Leap
5- Carnivorous
6- Venomous Leap
7- Carnivorous
8- Venomous Leap
9- Stone Hide
10- Terror
11- Stone Hide
12- Stone Hide
13- Stone Hide
14- Terror
15- Stats
16- Terror
17 to 25- Stats

You will notice that jungling is quite easy* with this skill-build and these item. When you get your 1st 900 gold, go to the Outpost that is on the 2 corners (almost) of the map and buy your Hungry Sprit. Now Jungling doesn't cost you any life at all.
*
Easy creeps that you should target on lvl 1-3
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/6849/easycreeps.jpg
these are low dmg creeps that dont damage you a lot


Creeps you should avoid before level 3 at least
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4741/creepsover3.jpg
Always aim for the easiest of each group, because it will give you exp faster and help you level your abilities.


Creeps you should avoid before getting Hungry Spirit
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7295/wolvesjz.jpg
These wolves are the worst prey out there, low life, high damage and critical, they will lower you in seconds, avoid them at start at all costs.

You keep jungling at your neutrals, until you get Elder Parasite and Marchers (ofc you can gank at the closest lane when your ally asks you, your slow is quite useful).When you have Elder and Enchanted Marchers (from the point you can sell Iron Buckler whenever you feel it) ganking should be very often at your close, but you still farm there it's quite fast gold.

Why Elder Parasite and Enchanted Marchers?
The reason is simple and important. When you will have your lvl 4 Stone Hide, you got 5.25 seconds with nothing being able to stop you, in that time you should do the most damage you can without creeps/heroes blocking your path. So Elder Parasite gives you that insane boost for these few seconds and E. Marchers helps you run through everything to chase your target. Also you can use Elder Parasite to farm faster when you dont have Stone Hide ready to kill Heroes.

Next is Insanitarius.
Designed for STR carries this item works similarly with Elder Parasite. Gives you a huge boost for limited time (because you can't have it activated for long due to the damage taken). With these so far, any, at lvl 12 any INT hero is a prey and many other that dont have an escaping skill (like blink).

Now that the core build is over, lets go to the after-build. Many will have different opinions on these , that's why i ran thought some statistics to help some people see clearer the big picture.

Hack and Slash vs Shieldbreaker.

There is no correct choice between them. Each one has different purpose.
H&S helps you chase efficiently and attack faster (and gives you a certain amount of hp), while Shieldbreaker combined with your Terror reduces your enemy's armor a lot and helps you deal much more dmg. In which case to buy these?
If your enemies consist of disablers/nukers/STR heroes that move fast or escape (like behemoth for example) most effective would be Shieldbreaker, since they will have very low armor (INT, STR heroes) their armor value might also go to a negative value which means tons of damage.
If your enemies have 2-3 Agil heroes or heroes that can escape easily (like Rampage who is fast, Pestilence, Maliken , Accursed) H&S is more effective, since it will ensure your hunt, while Shieldbreaker wont get Agil heroes to negative armor, H&S will kill not let them escape even if they need few more hits.

Savage Mace, why to buy it.

Savage mace gives a good amount of dmg , a decent amount of attack speed, and makes your attacks NEVER miss. quite important against agility heroes that have evasion from wingbow or other skills. Since you are a carry you will need damage in pure form rather than STR.

Wingbow

Wingbow. why buy an agility item on Predator. Wingbow may not give high damage, but gives high damage per second. You may not see it on your "Damage" tab , but you do much more damage with it. Simply, because you attack much faster. Another very important reason is that it works well with your Stone hide. While immune, the only thing that can hurt you is Attacks and Physical Damage. Wingbow provides you with armor and evasion, making you almost invulnerable while in Stone Hide.

What items to avoid:

Riftshards:

Why avoid when it's good offensive item? Predator's life may be not high , but he "gets" back life with his Carnivorous skill. He gets maximum when the enemy is at full hp and in every next hit he gets less. If you have riftshards and you achieve a critical hit, the enemy has lost much hp, and you gained hp only once. Meaning that it reduces your surviveability during combat. However if you increased your attack speed and damage steadily (like with Savage Mace) you will still make him hurt a lot and absorb much life too.

Behemoth's Heart:

Although a clearly STR originated item, it doesn't help Predator at all. He survives thourgh attacking and this one isn't an offensive item.

Helm of the Black Legion:

Exactly same reason as Behemoth's Heart and it's much gold wasted when not needed.

Not exactly avoid but... (see below)

Daemonic Breastplate:

While it helps a lot, Wingbow does the same job practically. The differences are that with Daemonic you got a bit more surviveability and the auras while with Wingbow you got more DPS. (you will see more differences in the table below)

Here are some statistics from a Predator 25 lvl. (under the buffs of Parasite, Terror, Stone Hide and Insanitarius)**

-With Elder Parasite, Enchated Marchers, Insanitarius, Savage Mace, Wingbow, Hack and Slash

Damage Per Second : 902.5
PHP : about 8500
MHP : about 3000
Movement speed : 522

-With Elder Parasite, Enchated Marchers, Insanitarius, Savage Mace, Wingbow, Shieldbreaker

Damage Per Second : 982
PHP : about 7500
MHP : about 3000
Movement speed : 500

-With Elder Parasite, Enchated Marchers, Insanitarius, Savage Mace, Daemonic Breastplate, Hack and Slash

Damage Per Second : 827.5
PHP : about 10000
MHP : about 3000
Movement speed : 522

-With Elder Parasite, Enchated Marchers, Insanitarius, Savage Mace, Daemonic Breastplate, Shieldbreaker
Damage Per Second : 907
PHP : about 9000
MHP : about 3000
Movement speed : 500

Well replacing Wingbow with Deamonic isn't huge change as you see, so it's not bad to do it (i never do it tho, i prefer wingbow).

All item choices are chosen with 1 and only 1 strategy. As a predator with your mighty stone hide. YOU MUST do the most possible damage on your time given immune. Fail to do that, will result in a failed Predator.

** These statistics are all without reductions being applied, simply because each target has different armor.

There is no point in mentioning easy victims from Predator, because almost everything is a prey if you follow this guide. There are some exception though which are worhy mentioning. The following are hard enemies for Predator:

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/44/icon_128.jpgHis Disarm is Predator's worst enemy. Even nerfed now (1 second) still makes your life very hard. Don't provoke him to target you.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/105/icon_128.jpgDon't let her do the bait and lure you out of combat. She can sleep herself and you will just lose your stone hide buff.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/89/icon_128.jpgHis ultimate spell....your worst nightmare. It's always wise to tell your allies to provoke Jera use his ulti before you charge in.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/115/icon_128.jpgCareful with this one too, leaping to him may result in you silenced, meaning no Stone Hide, meaning easy prey for the others.It is good to lose 1-2 second of stonehide and apply it before you leap on Vindicator.

There is one item also that can ruin a Predator, or at least if you were Predator's prey, now you are not. This item is found with the name Void Talisman.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_VoidTalisman.jpg
Since your damage is just your attacks, Void Talisman that renders someone immune to attacks and Physical damage (and lasts almost as long as your Stone Hide) can lure you and make you a bait. Check enemies' invetories. If you see that, DON'T choose him as your 1st target at all costs.



The end for the moment.
I'll update the guide with some screenshots and things i forgot to add (these exist , always) in the near future, stay tuned.

[Nedrapter]

Reserved.

[JoeMartin]

Disagree with not getting Stone Hide at level 1/2. Also no game should you ever get a HnS over a Shield Breaker.

Other than that it's pretty good.

[Skull4er]

no stone hide in early (which is just god damn nice against half of the enemys)
that means, no poison remove from slither
no slow/dot/healdot remove from hellbringer
no smitten remove (even if it never happenes on early levels)
no protection against swiftblade whirl.

and there are even more examples (also nice against accursed/jere which you know will heal soon or the shield is about to break, or extrem case magmus ultimate)

pred does the most dmg with his basedmg, the leech is not the main source, and maxing out leap is always the better choice since 5sec slow > 3 sec+ a lil bit more dmg

while elder parasite is rather funny to play with pred, it still sucks on him, making him a glasscannon, and he is mostly the first hero that jumps into the other team.

i also don't get your logic with riftshard, if i understand you correct you try to steal as much life as possible from the enemy, and not to kill him as fast as possible (which is always the aim). get symbol of rage if you need that desperetaly the leech (another point against parasite, because you NEED symbol of rage later on, not because of the HUGE lifesteal bonus, but also of additional strenght)

the next point would be your starting items, you point out to buy at first hungering spirit, and then later on hatchet and shield? those serve a much better purpose early on, and the additional lifesteal is wasted so early on.
(if you get some lvls and got bracer or somethink like that, you would have an dmg of around 100, that means 10hitpoints were stolen + some from the passiv skill) lifesteal gets better the more dmg you get, thats why you should keep it out at the beginning.

wingbow vs demonic breastplate.

well, wingbow is better if you fight some tough physical dps'ler, however, breastplate provides your team an bonus to armor and speed, and decreases the armor of enemys even further, together with shieldbreaker (which is ALWAYS the better choice then hack and slash on pred) and terror your team can rip your target very fast appart.


the next point would be jungling, while pred is able to jungle very well without much effort, it is quite inefficient at the beginning, because of his slow killspeed. start jungling when you get some additional dps/or attack speed items.
also add some detaills about creepstacking, since it will increase his income from jungling rather fast.

thats my 2 cents for now.

edit: you should also suggest 2x bracer or 1x bracer + 1x power supply for the beginning. i also see that you have absolutely NOTHING for life except insatirus, throw out that parasite and grab a symbol of rage or a behemoth's heart.

[FlamePhoenix]

I always pick Stone Hide in early levels. Truth is that carnivorous is quite useless if you are a last hit player like me. Just make the math, if you have 60 attack a creep needs to have at least 55 hp. Now 55*0.06 = 3.3 bonus HP, witch is quite low.

I know this sounds nub but ... what is PHP and MHP ?
I am however intrigued with wingbow. I would definitely go for daemonic breastplate but if your statistics are correct, than that's something I have to try.

I am also happy you added that damn item to the list, I thought no one knew about it. Oh wait ... I am a pred player ... NOOOOO you added the forbidden item, God curse you :P

Also, Vindicator silence is an aura, it will be activated EVERYTIME you cast a spell near him.

You may also want to add the following enemies to the list:
- Panda: his ultimate and stuns are all physical and will hurt you no matter what.
- Arachna: a powerful slowing hero that ignores stone hide as well.
- Rampage: though his stuns deal magic damage, you will still get stunned ... he has 3 stuns abilities btw ...

Yet another tutorial that doesn't teach about the Predator Bomb tactic...
It is a simple tactic and it needs 2 people: Accursed or Jere.
Accursed:
- Shield predator. When jumping we will take damage and the shield will explode. Devastating at low levels it uses the enemy tower against the enemy. If the enemy is low HP, you can kill him with your 1st skill, or heal pred if he needs.
Jere:
- Simillar to the above. Pred jumps in, you wait for him to take damage and then you heal him.
You can also pick the magic shield, thus allowing pred to focus carnivorous build instead of stone hide. If you are fighting 3 or more casters, then you can still cast it on pred, and then let him use stone hide, giving him nearly 20 secs of magic immunity.

For more information please see this post:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=619415&postcount=19

Hope it helps.

[Diffusion]

No stone hide early game will turn into your undoing. I also disagree with Elder's parasite. Even in stone hide mode, any autoattacking hero, especially agility carries will do huge amounts of damage to you. You'll die faster.

[FlamePhoenix]

You'll die faster.
If you rush in without any support, than yes.
I usually use elder parasite for hunting, so dying is not something I am worried about because the enemy usually dies within the first 4 seconds of slow.
Using Elder Parasite will help me (as a pred) to get the maximum damage output in those 4 seconds.

BTW; Stone Hide icon is wrong.

[Llama]

H&S is horrid, and if you want attack speed, just get daemonic breastplate or charged hammer (why will no one consider this item?) instead of wingbow (did you take the -5 armour into consideration with the daemonic calculations?). The evasion might be nice for countering bashers, but you might aswell just get the bracelet and work on more productive items

If you want to mass attack speed, you might aswell throw in brutaliser there too if your facing another carry (Especially pestilence)

Pred is also a stupidly slow jungler at level 1, so unless your constantly pulling, your never going to be as levelled as you would in a lane, and with a nuke/slow he makes for decent FB opportunities.

The point of Eldar on most carries, is that the lifesteal you will gain back from attacking at an increased rate offsets the increased damage you take. However most carries dont get this as they are squishy enough and likely to get nuked and die with their low HP pool. With pred however, eldar lets you lifesteal even more with your passive, and stonehide+shrunken will prevent you from eating a %30+ nuke.

[Nedrapter]

For those that want Stone Hide early. WHen you are at woods until lvl 10 almost, why you need immunity against creeps?

The one saying that elder parasite makes you take tons of dmg: Stone hide compensate you with armor, so the damage is less, but anyway nothing will turn and hit a rampaging oredator with immunity and elder activatedm unless they want to die.

[Nedrapter]

no game should you ever get a HnS over a Shield Breaker.

Any valid reason for that?

[Nedrapter]

H&S is horrid, and if you want attack speed, just get daemonic breastplate or charged hammer (why will no one consider this item?) instead of wingbow. If you want to mass attack speed, you might aswell throw in brutaliser there too if your facing another carry (Especially pestilence)

What if you want more ms? H&S is mostly for the huge ms bonus.



Pred is also a stupidly slow jungler at level 1, so unless your constantly pulling, your never going to be as levelled as you would in a lane, and with a nuke/slow he makes for decent FB opportunities.


In my games im on worst case 1 lvl behind the lane. He is a bit slow at start but with some pulls and elder is quite faster than lane.

[FlamePhoenix]

Nedrapter, what about my suggestions ? ='(


In my games im on worst case 1 lvl behind the lane. He is a bit slow at start but with some pulls and elder is quite faster than lane.
I disagree. If you creep instead of supporting your team (that has now 4 players because you are in the jungle) you will never gain more xp.

And please, use the "edit" feature. It makes your posts easier to read.

[Llama]

What if you want more ms? H&S is mostly for the huge ms bonus.

Eldar ~12% increase+ulti increase and a 40% slow isn't enough? I guess if your really desperate, but you could always grab geometers bane instead for uber lifestealing images (becha didnt think of that one eh? :D)

Im also pretty sure skeli camps are easier than wild hunters, but ill do some research on that
[EDIT]Skeli camps do less damage, give more xp+gold bounty, but come it groups of 2 (more inefficient hits) and have around 100hp more in total, so I guess they are about equal with wild hunters, but definitely shouldnt be in line with the catman camp

[Nedrapter]

If you rush in without any support, than yes.
I usually use elder parasite for hunting, so dying is not something I am worried about because the enemy usually dies within the first 4 seconds of slow.
Using Elder Parasite will help me (as a pred) to get the maximum damage output in those 4 seconds.

BTW; Stone Hide icon is wrong.

If you mean about these, yes they are correct totally.

[Anvard]

Shieldbreaker > HnS in ANY game.

[Nedrapter]

Eldar ~12% increase+ulti increase and a 40% slow isn't enough? I guess if your really desperate, but you could always grab geometers bane instead for uber lifestealing images (becha didnt think of that one eh? :D)

Im also pretty sure skeli camps are easier than wild hunters, but ill do some research on that
[EDIT]Skeli camps do less damage, give more xp+gold bounty, but come it groups of 2 (more inefficient hits) and have around 100hp more in total, so I guess they are about equal with wild hunters, but definitely shouldnt be in line with the catman camp

Yea skeli are a bit easier than catman, but it's good to avoid these before 3 lvl. About geometer's bane, that's joke item for predator :) I know hack&slash is considered noob item since it just gives a bit of anything a bad player needs and doesnt do any significant change on most of heroes, but i find that it's good for predator.
For example there are times that i leap in kill someone in the time im immune and then i need to escape. Without hack and slash i usually dont manage to escape, cos everyone runs about same as fast as me (even with elder activated, ranged disables reach you before you get out of range), but having slash's bonus you are in 522 ms.

[Nedrapter]

Shieldbreaker > HnS in ANY game.

Arguments > SPam

[Skull4er]

pros of hack and slash
improves a lil bit chasing
grants minor dmg
some HP

pros of shieldbreaker
a SHITLOAD of dmg
great synergy with terror
allows together with insatirus to kill int heroes in 2-3 hits, and shreddering tanks in a speed which is already a joke.
amplifys physical dmg on target

pred does not need more movespeed or an additional slow, he needs dmg to kill his enemys while he is at them (and most likely as long as his ultimate lasts on them, which also grants him enough speed in any aspect)

besides, another "small" weakness of pred is, that he deals less dmg, as soon as his enemys drop, he needs some additional finish power, like with insatirus or shieldbreaker.

[Nedrapter]

pros of shieldbreaker
a SHITLOAD of dmg


That's false. As i explained in the guide, if the target is an INT hero for example, yes it does lots of damage when you reduce his already low armor by 6.
When you face an agil hero late game with item like Wingbow and Daemonic Breastplate, the -6 armor is quite few dmg increase.

Statistics:
A hero with 41 armor, reduces incoming damage by 71% approximately.
The same hero attacked by Predator with Shieldbreaker and lvl 2 terror* has 31 armor , which reduces incoming damage by 61% approximately.

A hero with 5 armor, reduces incoming damage by 23,5% approximately.
The same hero attacked by Predator with Shieldbreaker and lvl 2 terror, has about -5 armor, which reduces incoming damage by -26% (meaning it amplifies damage).

Results:
1st case: Predator gets a 10% increase in his damage , by reducing 10 armor of his target.
2nd case: Predator gets a 49% increase in his damage, by reducing 10 armor of his target.

You can see that shieldbreaker isn't the same effective on all targets. If you enemies have already high values of armor, it's effectiveness decreases.
So , read again the part where i explain when to choose between H&S and Shieldbreaker and don't be stubborn.

*lvl 2 terror was chosen to made the calculation easier.

[Llama]

It would be worth noting that armour reduces the damage done from carnivorous. Im pretty sure the way armour works both + and - armour dont stack diminishingly until you get to extreme - armour values, but Ill do some testing on that later


About geometer's bane, that's joke item for predator
Yeah I know, I just thought stealing 20% of your opponents HP instantly would be a laugh xD

[Skull4er]

That's false. As i explained in the guide, if the target is an INT hero for example, yes it does lots of damage when you reduce his already low armor by 6.
When you face an agil hero late game with item like Wingbow and Daemonic Breastplate, the -6 armor is quite few dmg increase.

Statistics:
A hero with 41 armor, reduces incoming damage by 71% approximately.
The same hero attacked by Predator with Shieldbreaker and lvl 2 terror* has 31 armor , which reduces incoming damage by 61% approximately.

A hero with 5 armor, reduces incoming damage by 23,5% approximately.
The same hero attacked by Predator with Shieldbreaker and lvl 2 terror, has about -5 armor, which reduces incoming damage by -26% (meaning it amplifies damage).

Results:
1st case: Predator gets a 10% increase in his damage , by reducing 10 armor of his target.
2nd case: Predator gets a 49% increase in his damage, by reducing 10 armor of his target.

You can see that shieldbreaker isn't the same effective on all targets. If you enemies have already high values of armor, it's effectiveness decreases.
So , read again the part where i explain when to choose between H&S and Shieldbreaker and don't be stubborn.

*lvl 2 terror was chosen to made the calculation easier.
i take your numbers for an example (even if it it nearly impossible that someone can manage to get 41 armor permanently in an non -em game)

for easier math i take the numbers of 70% reduction and 60% reduction.
now lets see what happens if we got an attack dmg off 100
without shieldbreaker we would deal then 30 dmg
with 40
thats a dmg increase of 33%, you only saw the reduction of the armor, and not of the increase in dmg before the armor reduction, thats a big mistake.

Edit: to make clarify what i mean, 30*1,33~ = 40, thats a ******* huge dmg increase comparedto before.

then i ask you why you take an armor of 41, i don't know any cases where someone is stacking so much armor, the only heroes which can achieve such an value permanently are agility heroes that take an frostfield or a demonic breastplate, but there is no reason for them to buy one, because they already got a shitload of armor, and for more attackspeed is wingbow better.
the only agility hero which may buy one of those armors would be zephyr, i really don't know other heroes which benefit from those items.

[Boduar]

I like going 2x str bracers + boots (I guess steamboots now are best altho enhanced marchers pre-change were so much better), followed by warpcleft then shield breaker and then either daemonic BP or elder parasite/insanitarius. Havent played a pred game that lasted much longer after I got warp cleft and started working on shield breaker tho since they usually concede. Warpcleft turns your medium atk speed into insanely fast attack speed that will take any hero down in a few seconds. Add onto the atk speed the dmg from just warhammers for shield breaker and mid game nobody lives very long.

[FlamePhoenix]

Nedrapter, I meant this post here:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=619967&postcount=5

Please comment on it.

Another suggestion, lot's of people seem to disagree with you. Why don't you ask them their tactics and add them as alternative tactics ?
This way your guide will be more complete.

[Nedrapter]

i take your numbers for an example (even if it it nearly impossible that someone can manage to get 41 armor permanently in an non -em game)

for easier math i take the numbers of 70% reduction and 60% reduction.
now lets see what happens if we got an attack dmg off 100
without shieldbreaker we would deal then 30 dmg
with 40
thats a dmg increase of 33%, you only saw the reduction of the armor, and not of the increase in dmg before the armor reduction, thats a big mistake.

Edit: to make clarify what i mean, 30*1,33~ = 40, thats a ******* huge dmg increase comparedto before.

then i ask you why you take an armor of 41, i don't know any cases where someone is stacking so much armor, the only heroes which can achieve such an value permanently are agility heroes that take an frostfield or a demonic breastplate, but there is no reason for them to buy one, because they already got a shitload of armor, and for more attackspeed is wingbow better.
the only agility hero which may buy one of those armors would be zephyr, i really don't know other heroes which benefit from those items.

Yea my bad there, I apologize, can you also calculate my 2nd case too to compare there increase in damage then?

[Nedrapter]

I always pick Stone Hide in early levels. Truth is that carnivorous is quite useless if you are a last hit player like me. Just make the math, if you have 60 attack a creep needs to have at least 55 hp. Now 55*0.06 = 3.3 bonus HP, witch is quite low.

No carnivorous isn't useful against lane creeps. I never said that. But if you read the whole guide, you would see that i suggest jungling until 10-12 lvl (with some ganks in your closest lane).



I know this sounds nub but ... what is PHP and MHP ?
I am however intrigued with wingbow. I would definitely go for daemonic breastplate but if your statistics are correct, than that's something I have to try.

PHP is HP after applied reduction from armor
MHP is HP after applied reductions from magic armor.

Meaning how much actualy hp you got against attacks/spells.


I am also happy you added that damn item to the list, I thought no one knew about it. Oh wait ... I am a pred player ... NOOOOO you added the forbidden item, God curse you :P

What item?


Also, Vindicator silence is an aura, it will be activated EVERYTIME you cast a spell near him.

That's why im suggesting to prepare your Stone Hide buff before you get near him


You may also want to add the following enemies to the list:
- Panda: his ultimate and stuns are all physical and will hurt you no matter what.
- Arachna: a powerful slowing hero that ignores stone hide as well.
- Rampage: though his stuns deal magic damage, you will still get stunned ... he has 3 stuns abilities btw ...
Harder than the rest, but not that hard to make them exceptions.



Yet another tutorial that doesn't teach about the Predator Bomb tactic...
It is a simple tactic and it needs 2 people: Accursed or Jere.
Accursed:
- Shield predator. When jumping we will take damage and the shield will explode. Devastating at low levels it uses the enemy tower against the enemy. If the enemy is low HP, you can kill him with your 1st skill, or heal pred if he needs.
Jere:
- Simillar to the above. Pred jumps in, you wait for him to take damage and then you heal him.
You can also pick the magic shield, thus allowing pred to focus carnivorous build instead of stone hide. If you are fighting 3 or more casters, then you can still cast it on pred, and then let him use stone hide, giving him nearly 20 secs of magic immunity.

Since early game you are in neutrals, that cant happen. Later on, their shield is much more needed in others than you, that you are already immune.

[Nedrapter]

Another suggestion, lot's of people seem to disagree with you. Why don't you ask them their tactics and add them as alternative tactics ?
This way your guide will be more complete.

The more tactics/options you include in a guide the more the guide losses it's purpose. As a town-guide will give you the shortest way to your direction, and it wont suggest many alternatives, like that my guide suggests the shortest way to a good Predator.

Of course if it's proven that i'm wrong in some place, I'll replace mine with the correct ones and not put both in the guide.

[Skull4er]

Yea my bad there, I apologize, can you also calculate my 2nd case too to compare there increase in damage then?

Exact numbers from your armor datas.
71% reduction before 61% reduction after
34.48% dmg increase

23% before, -26 after
63,64% dmg increase

should be ok, i havent checked them too accurate

here is also a nice thread about armor reduction
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=14646

[Tobias]

I have to admit I don't understand the item section. I don't see any regen items at all, yet you mention runes of blight at some point.

Would you mind telling me (through text) what items you suggest that predator starts with?

[WizEye]

I like going 2x str bracers + boots (I guess steamboots now are best altho enhanced marchers pre-change were so much better), followed by warpcleft then shield breaker and then either daemonic BP or elder parasite/insanitarius. Havent played a pred game that lasted much longer after I got warp cleft and started working on shield breaker tho since they usually concede. Warpcleft turns your medium atk speed into insanely fast attack speed that will take any hero down in a few seconds. Add onto the atk speed the dmg from just warhammers for shield breaker and mid game nobody lives very long.

I like this strat actually, less work than microing insanitarius and it's so much easier to keep yourself alive this way. You can always run around hitting ancients and regain some health real quick once you have a warpcleft.

[Nedrapter]

I have to admit I don't understand the item section. I don't see any regen items at all, yet you mention runes of blight at some point.

Would you mind telling me (through text) what items you suggest that predator starts with?

Of course, the starting item in an All heroes mode, are Iron Buckler, Logger's hatchet and a pack of Runes of Blight. You need regen only at very early lvls, because your dont have high Carnivorous level.
When you get that, along with Elder Parasite, you regen faster than anything.

I hope it's clear now, look again at the guide.

[Tobias]

That makes more sense. Do you have any suggestions for an item build that includes a courier?

[Nedrapter]

That makes more sense. Do you have any suggestions for an item build that includes a courier?

You can replace Logger's Hatcher with a courier and buy it later.

[FlamePhoenix]

No carnivorous isn't useful against lane creeps. I never said that. But if you read the whole guide, you would see that i suggest jungling until 10-12 lvl (with some ganks in your closest lane).
So basically, until you reach level 12 your team is making a 5vs4 game.
I think this is enough for me, most heroes that spends half of the game creeping will be totally abused in the end, it doesn't take any special hero to do so.
Not having stone skin also limits your team's overall tactic in the first levels. As a pred I don't creep, in never do it unless I am desperate. I have found many preds that spend the game creeping and in the end I see supporters contributing more to the team than they contribute.

I am happy you wrote this guide though. Thx for listening, I learned 1 or 2 things from here =D

[Nedrapter]

So basically, until you reach level 12 your team is making a 5vs4 game.
I think this is enough for me, most heroes that spends half of the game creeping will be totally abused in the end, it doesn't take any special hero to do so.
Not having stone skin also limits your team's overall tactic in the first levels. As a pred I don't creep, in never do it unless I am desperate. I have found many preds that spend the game creeping and in the end I see supporters contributing more to the team than they contribute.



So it's much more profitable for you and your team, to leave a 2nd lane to solo, and go jungling at neutral creeps.

You keep jungling at your neutrals, until you get Elder Parasite and Marchers (ofc you can gank at the closest lane when your ally asks you, your slow is quite useful).

Since you don't really understand what you read I'll explain once more , more detailed this time:

1-Once your team decides for Predator, you pick 2 Heroes that can solo.
2-It's better have 2 allies in your close lane, so when you gank a 3vs2 advantage makes your gank successful.
3-Having 2 solos and you jungling means that your team will have higher levels than the enemies.
4-Since jungling makes your more profit than laning, you get items faster, and you help your team faster.
5-Predator needs babysitting in a lane, meaning that your ally will may have to sacrifice himself to save you.
6-You make it sound like jungling is a waste of time. A camp with catmans gives you more gold than a wave of creeps.
7-Not being visible to your enemies is always an advantage, they will fear ganks, they will stay to their towers, you can ambush much easier.
8-In this game you mainly have 5 sources of gold: 3 lanes and 2 groups of neutrals, utilizing all of them would be the most beneficial, but since not everyone can solo against 2 enemies, it's usually impossible.
9-Some heroes are designed to farm a bit at start, while unseen and get 1-2 core items to enable their potentials. Examples are : Legionaire (needs portal key and some surviveability, Tempest needs portal key, Predator, needs Parasite)
10-Someone being at the neutral area , means that your team has more map awareness, preventing ganks and ensuring your team's ganks.

These are 10 facts that make people go to neutrals.

I don't have any benefit from arguing with you, but you seem to ignore what i write and repeat yourself over and over.

[Kcolraw]

H&S is horrid, and if you want attack speed, just get daemonic breastplate or charged hammer (why will no one consider this item?) instead of wingbow (did you take the -5 armour into consideration with the daemonic calculations?). The evasion might be nice for countering bashers, but you might aswell just get the bracelet and work on more productive items

If you want to mass attack speed, you might aswell throw in brutaliser there too if your facing another carry (Especially pestilence)
good post and agree

i just breastplate + brutalizer most games

with a shieldbreaker (either yours or teammates) that's some ridic armor pen... if pest and/or shaman on team and all the armor penetration **** lined up everything will just get 3~5 shotted

[VenomKing]

I'd rather get whispering helm over parasite. Or any life leech that isn't elder. Also Shieldbreaker over HnS.

[WizEye]

I like going 2x str bracers + boots (I guess steamboots now are best altho enhanced marchers pre-change were so much better), followed by warpcleft then shield breaker and then either daemonic BP or elder parasite/insanitarius. Havent played a pred game that lasted much longer after I got warp cleft and started working on shield breaker tho since they usually concede. Warpcleft turns your medium atk speed into insanely fast attack speed that will take any hero down in a few seconds. Add onto the atk speed the dmg from just warhammers for shield breaker and mid game nobody lives very long.

Any thoughts on this build?

[XTenebrousX]

Good Guide.

Stone Hide image is wrong; you should change it.

[XTenebrousX]

Also no game should you ever get a HnS over a Shield Breaker.

I think you're wrong. Shieldbreaker allows more damage, but how are you going to hit get, say, a corrupted disciple when he's running. You can leap, yes, but then it cools down and he escapes. With HnS at least you have a chance of slowing.

Leap hits twice by the way, allowing HnS to have a chance to proc twice.

[Llama]

^ as soon as you leap CD, his passive will proc and youll be slowed yourself. If your ganking someone, you should have teammates there with you to stun/slow, so you can finish them off easily enough

[Nedrapter]

Stone Hide image is wrong; you should change it.

I know but i cant find the correct one :P

[Kcolraw]

Hacknslash sucks. Same amount of money can get you hyperstone and basher. Hyperstone boosts survivability by faster carnivorous, can and should be built to breastplate later, and basher is so much better for staying in range of heroes. Basher also helps with survivability bc a stunned hero is a hero not doing damage... Plus there's that sweet 6str on top. I understand you might think lol pred attack so slow for bashing, but that's where the hyperstone comes in.

How I play it anyway. Ofc this is after I rush insanitarius.

You can buy and assemble a Whispering Helm in lane, and then crack it apart when you're ready to upgrade either of its components into Elder Parasite and Insanitarius. Getting the helm first will delay getting either of the latter by 900gp, but I suspect not having to leave lane/jungle and being able to grab a pet or two (either to help you farm, or to stack ancients) is worth it.

[FlamePhoenix]

Your 10 facts are not 10, some of them make no sense at all and are even wrong.


I don't have any benefit from arguing with you, but you seem to ignore what i write and repeat yourself over and over.
I want to make something clear: just because I don't accept your truth as my own it DOESN'T mean I ignore you, it simply means you didn't convinced me.
There are a lot of things I disagree like saying that vindicator is a bigger menace to pred than Arachna or Panda or even Rampage. Notice that one can only disagree with your arguments if it gives them some attention (I can't disagree with something I don't know).

My point is, we play pred in different ways, but if you ever need some of my support I will be happy to give it.

Hope we all understand each other now =D

[exnx]

Didn't read comments but I'm sure someone mentioned: if you're using elder parasite and insanitarius you're pretty much pissing away your hp quite fast even with lifesteal, bound to be a glasscannon

[Nedrapter]

You can buy and assemble a Whispering Helm in lane, and then crack it apart when you're ready to upgrade either of its components into Elder Parasite and Insanitarius. Getting the helm first will delay getting either of the latter by 900gp, but I suspect not having to leave lane/jungle and being able to grab a pet or two (either to help you farm, or to stack ancients) is worth it.


That's a good idea, never thought of it. i will added as alternative way to farm.

[FlamePhoenix]

Didn't read comments but I'm sure someone mentioned: if you're using elder parasite and insanitarius you're pretty much pissing away your hp quite fast even with lifesteal, bound to be a glasscannon
That will be truth if you don't have carnivorous leveled up. The life steal you gain is enough to stand to most 1v1 fights and live to the end. Don't forget that Insanitarius increases your HP by a considerable factor as well as damage too.

[Nedrapter]

Didn't read comments but I'm sure someone mentioned: if you're using elder parasite and insanitarius you're pretty much pissing away your hp quite fast even with lifesteal, bound to be a glasscannon

With stone hide and carnivorous, you will never be a glass cannon. Of course you cant simply jump into 5 enemies and expect to kill them all or escape, choose your timing carefully when you wana leap inside.

[FlamePhoenix]

Of course you cant simply jump into 5 enemies and expect to kill them all or escape, choose your timing carefully when you wana leap inside.
Pred can be an initiator, but initiating a battle without your team supporting you is ... madness ....
rapter is 100% right here, always remember that 5>1.

[Nedrapter]

Pred can be an initiator, but initiating a battle without your team supporting you is ... madness ....
rapter is 100% right here, always remember that 5>1.

Ofc, initiation will be one of your roles sometimes, simply because you can double kill 2 casters with low armor and leave your team to deal with the rest, while you w8 for your stone hide to be ready again.

[kaabrejner]

Steamboots > enchanted marchers?

[FlamePhoenix]

Steamboots > enchanted marchers? They are both good, however pred's life steal ability scales better with attack speed, and Steamboots give him a nice amount of extra attack speed.

Your function is not to chase targets, it is to kill them fast. If they run out of the battle, ignore them and pick the next strongest target. Leave the other members of the team (like BH) to finish fleeing heroes.

[a_cloth]

enhanced marchers -.-