Is magebane the counter to legionnaire?

[Woolygimp]

Seriously, magebane is more of a bane to melee classes that have limited mana pools and regen than to casters who often have infinite mana lategame.

When I play a legionnaire it's very annoying being OOM after the initial portkey/taunt and not being able to decapitate/retaunt because the magebane has stolen all my mana. I even bought a ring of the teacher and stacked two mana tubes and he would still drain all my mana.

Is there anything I can do to prevent this? Any counter? And I think it's stupid that magebane causes more trouble to melee than casters but whatever - dota mechanics I guess.

[FluffyM]

I agree that it's stupid that he causes so much grief to melee heroes (too bad melee heroes don't work on HP/Rage basis or something).
That is all.

[Travakh]

Three options.

1. Your helix is your main source of damage, and with luck you helix enough to kill him in the initial blink+taunt. i.e. don't worry about it
2. Let your team handle killing him, killing a blink hero is usually a team effort and you're one part of it (locking him down for 3 or 4 seconds). i.e. don't worry about it
3. Go shivas. Vanguard->shivas is a perfectly viable item build on axe against main physical damage opponents. With a shivas he won't burn enough mana in time before you hopefully cull him.

[Invoker1]

magebane is just a name.
think of him as 'hero than drains mana' rather than 'hero that kills mages'.

[Nome]

Legionnaire has no real counter, unfortunately.

In DotA, N'aix beat Axe reliably due to his lifeleech and ultimate, but Predator can't do the same because Predator isn't nearly as strong.

[_Archangel_]

Seriously, magebane is more of a bane to melee classes that have limited mana pools and regen than to casters who often have infinite mana lategame.

When I play a legionnaire it's very annoying being OOM after the initial portkey/taunt and not being able to decapitate/retaunt because the magebane has stolen all my mana. I even bought a ring of the teacher and stacked two mana tubes and he would still drain all my mana.

Is there anything I can do to prevent this? Any counter? And I think it's stupid that magebane causes more trouble to melee than casters but whatever - dota mechanics I guess.

The problem lies in your "fix" to the problem. Stacking mana regeneration won't help at all. Buy Nulls and/or Shiva's so that you have a bigger mana pool to start off with.

[Travakh]

Legionnaire has no real counter, unfortunately.

In DotA, N'aix beat Axe reliably due to his lifeleech and ultimate, but Predator can't do the same because Predator isn't nearly as strong.

His counter was range orbwalkers and strong gankers, but there's only one of the first and a couple of the latter in HoN.

A solid obs destroyer takes axe and rips him in two, a nerubian assassin would eat him alive.

[JeffEmming]

What is a Shiva in HoN terms? Pickled Brain?

[cellyboy]

shivas is called frost plate or something, mystic staff (acolytes staff?) and platemail + frost plate recipe...

[GAdolphus]

3. Go shivas. Vanguard->shivas is a perfectly viable item build on axe against main physical damage opponents. With a shivas he won't burn enough mana in time before you hopefully cull him.

Shamans headdress -> shivas you mean? Since vanguard is not an axe item.

[Travakh]

Shamans headdress -> shivas you mean? Since vanguard is not an axe item.

vanguard is not an axe item.

vanguard

not an axe item.

I have this huge silly grin on my face now, thanks

[JeffEmming]

I really don't mean to be a bother, and I'm sure it's in the small minority, but could you please always refer to the HoN name when possible? It gets really confusing having to learn two sets of item names.

[Tyrando]

Its annoying for us to thats why when we think of it, its name escapes us and we come out with "!£"$%! Gank Zeus!" etc.


The fact that magebane went from 64 mana drain to 59 was just uncalled for imo.

[GAdolphus]

I have this huge silly grin on my face now, thanks

It's for weak heroes that need an extra boost. Legionnare however, does not need it. His taunt gives him enough armor to survive when people are hitting him, then he needs magic defence prior to vanguards.

[JeffEmming]

I know it's equally difficult for you guys, that's just why I tried to ask as passively as possible :P.

[Travakh]

It's for weak heroes that need an extra boost. Legionnare however, does not need it. His taunt gives him enough armor to survive when people are hitting him, then he needs magic defence prior to vanguards.

No, it's for heroes that require being hit in order to activate reactive abilities. Taunt isn't supposed to be spammed and isn't up 100% of the time.

Every axe in comp play has fielded a vanguard as his first item unless he was used exclusively to blink-taunt-hold.

[Tr1cKSt3R]

The fact that magebane went from 64 mana drain to 59 was just uncalled for imo.


!AGREE
Fix magebane please.

[Real_Wolf]

Brevik, no, vanguard is there so that he can tank.

When he taunts, he gets hit by everyone who he taunted. If he then has the reduced melee damage he takes alot less damage, he gets some regen, and he has a higher health pool. In comparison, the magic defence gives him no better tank when he blinks and tauns, gives him no more health to survive

[GAdolphus]

Every useless axe makes a vanguard ye: ). Who hits axe with physical damage during team fights? When you figure out the answer here you will know how useless vanguard is for him.

[Cantspel]

taunt + barbed armor + creeps = dead magebane in most cases.

[GAdolphus]

Real_Wolf, he gets vitality booster for heart of behemot anyway. Headdress is for regen and nukes (which is his true counter). There is really no reason at all to gimp yourself with a vanguard.

[Cantspel]

Every useless axe makes a vanguard ye: ). Who hits axe with physical damage during team fights? When you figure out the answer here you will know how useless vanguard is for him.

Ummm vanguard isn't necessarily used for enemy heroes. Its more for the enemy creeps. Try blinking into a group of creeps and enemy heroes and using taunt, the whirlwind will go crazy (very good thing) but you will take a ton of damage from the creeps from it. With helm of the black legion (vanguard) it significantly reduces that damage.

EDIT: it is effectively ~60% damage reduction from basic creeps. Making you perfect to tank entire creep waves (helps a lot with pushing, and farming) as you wont loose much health (most likely regen it before the next wave). It also significantly reduces the damage towers do to you, letting you tank those as well.

[Travakh]

Real_Wolf, he gets vitality booster for heart of behemot anyway. Headdress is for regen and nukes (which is his true counter). There is really no reason at all to gimp yourself with a vanguard.

Seriously you're only embarrassing yourself

[Ringtail]

In pre6.60 dota 2x stout gave almost the same effect of the vanguard. That's 600g, against 2275g. No reason to just throw away your money. In all dota competitive matches i saw, where axe participated (and thats a lot of replays, mind you), the build was practicaly the same: 2x stout->hood->blink->shiva/HoT->anything else. In fact the only time i saw vanguard in a competitive match was a chinese Dirge (zombie) with a fast push strat. In pubs...well, one of my friend goes for dagon on nearly any hero and with his level of play it works perfectly. You almost start to respect dagon :rolleyes:

The fact that you get vang on axe, doesn't mean you are a noob or anything. Just means you're not responsible with the money you spend.:) Oh, and umm sorry for the dota terminology, cant remember all new item names for a life time. Good thing they cost the same, that was my only reference point when i strated to play HoN.

[GAdolphus]

Ummm vanguard isn't necessarily used for enemy heroes. Its more for the enemy creeps. Try blinking into a group of creeps and enemy heroes and using taunt, the whirlwind will go crazy (very good thing) but you will take a ton of damage from the creeps from it. With helm of the black legion (vanguard) it significantly reduces that damage.

EDIT: it is effectively ~60% damage reduction from basic creeps. Making you perfect to tank entire creep waves (helps a lot with pushing, and farming) as you wont loose much health (most likely regen it before the next wave). It also significantly reduces the damage towers do to you, letting you tank those as well.

That's why I always start with 2x stout. They will satisfy your needs for the whole game. Vanguard is just waste of a roh and a vitality booster that you will need for better items.

[Himura1]

there is another style of playing axe which is bloodstone.

starting with 1-2 shields, getting a ring and point booster then dagger. after dagger completing bloodstone then heart. Axe get's alot of easy kills with culling so he get's charges fast. but u oso gotta see ur enemies. if alot of casters, get hood first XD

[TurooX]

That's why I always start with 2x stout. They will satisfy your needs for the whole game. Vanguard is just waste of a roh and a vitality booster that you will need for better items.

Your smokeing weed. Final

[Himura1]

Your smokeing weed. Final

vanguard is a waste of money. if there was the option to disassemble it, it would still be a viable item. but since it cannot it sucks -.-

[OphMid]

Well with Lego I usually start with 2 Bucklers. And make a Vanguard from one of the Bucklers.

And end up forgetting about Portal Key until late game.

[Deillon]

2 bucklers -> hotbl

[Kuosi]

Every useless axe makes a vanguard ye: ). Who hits axe with physical damage during team fights? When you figure out the answer here you will know how useless vanguard is for him.
oh lol

[Mark]

barbed armour is nice for mana regen


taunt + barbed armor + creeps = dead magebane in most cases.
dead anything if you got 2 creep waves, you always have decapitate if you need it. Sometimes invis units can get away from those situations, kinda nice to save taunt until they just windwalk ect to force them back out.

[Isin]

Yes, just because Magebane has skills based on burning mana doesn't mean he kills mages. I mean, come on, the mana burn actually hurts STR and AGI heroes more, because the INT heroes have so much mana that they can take the mana burn, but the STR and AGI heroes run out.

[MavsWorld]

Vanguard is a silly item on all characters in competitive games. It's only worthwhile in low level games, because there heroes take agi dpsers. Top level games it's all spells so HoD is much better on axe. Vanguard just delays HoD and dagger, which are far more important than being able to tank some creeps early.

[CrackDealer1]

Simple question- how often do you block with 2x bucklers? Is it 60% or 51% or something different?

[Sw4n]

vanguard sucks. 1 stout shield is enough. if it isnt then ur doing something wrong.

[OphMid]

Yes, just because Magebane has skills based on burning mana doesn't mean he kills mages. I mean, come on, the mana burn actually hurts STR and AGI heroes more, because the INT heroes have so much mana that they can take the mana burn, but the STR and AGI heroes run out.
I thought he deals more damage the more mana he burns (I'm not talking about his ulti but his mana burn ability).

[Lethe]

Legionaire crushes magebane so hard it's not even funny.

[Isin]

I thought he deals more damage the more mana he burns (I'm not talking about his ulti but his mana burn ability).

He burns the same amount of mana with each hit no matter who you're hitting. Unless they changed him.

[Cantspel]

Simple question- how often do you block with 2x bucklers? Is it 60% or 51% or something different?

It would be less then 60% because both items 'could' activate at the same time however the game is set up to use the item with the highest bonus ignoring the other item. This is the same for crit and mana steal (including skills vs items).

[Cantspel]

He burns the same amount of mana with each hit no matter who you're hitting. Unless they changed him.

I think he means that he technically gets more bonus damage because of the burn as long as the target has mana. If you drain someones mana completely there isn't anything to burn.

[Vadi]

He should burn depending on the opponents max mana, not a static amount. Then he would be a 'magebane' ... otherwise its a joke atm.

[Cantspel]

He should burn depending on the opponents max mana, not a static amount. Then he would be a 'magebane' ... otherwise its a joke atm.

I think of the mana burn as a nice ability but not necessarily what he depends on more then anything. His biggest asset I think his ease of blinking all over the place, added in with his high magic armor makes him very hard to kill. It makes it so the enemy team is afraid to be anywhere with low mana.

[Real_Wolf]

I love the person who said "I never see vanguard in competitive play".

You, sir, are either having a great trolling joke, or are incredibly stupid.

Here is a brilliant example of a vanguard. Used in a league game. On an Axe.

MYM in some of their latest dota matches before they split up, when they used axe, would always use roughly the same build. Hood, blink, phase boots, vanguard, shiva's.

Now, thats not even getting vanguard as the first item, but getting it later. So I fail to see how the "its not used in leagues", "its only for fragile heroes" and "2 stout is worth the same amount" arguments are correct.

2 stouts does not give the same blocking, it does not give the same health regen, it does not give the same health boost.

[Doikor]

I love the person who said "I never see vanguard in competitive play".

You, sir, are either having a great trolling joke, or are incredibly stupid.

Here is a brilliant example of a vanguard. Used in a league game. On an Axe.

MYM in some of their latest dota matches before they split up, when they used axe, would always use roughly the same build. Hood, blink, phase boots, vanguard, shiva's.

Now, thats not even getting vanguard as the first item, but getting it later. So I fail to see how the "its not used in leagues", "its only for fragile heroes" and "2 stout is worth the same amount" arguments are correct.

2 stouts does not give the same blocking, it does not give the same health regen, it does not give the same health boost.

ye they just use it as a cheaper HoT so you can get shivas faster

[proffz]

Brevik is correct, scrubs dont comprehend why I guess.

[Krazer1]

lol @ the person who said helm of the black leigon doesnt go on legionnaire. You couldn't be more wrong. The item is essentially made for this hero.

[Himura1]

lol @ the person who said helm of the black leigon doesnt go on legionnaire. You couldn't be more wrong. The item is essentially made for this hero.

Nope. Try again.

[Krazer1]

Nope. Try again.

A compelling argument. Irrefutable perhaps!

[Orkka]

90% of all axe go vanguard first for fb aggressive play so...

Yes! Try again.

[Eizyark]

Every useless axe makes a vanguard ye: ). Who hits axe with physical damage during team fights? When you figure out the answer here you will know how useless vanguard is for him.

i would answer that. which axe doesn't blink in to call all so that they won't be able to cast and be forced to normal attack? u do know that when axe calls, they won't be able to cast yeh? so now there all attacking you. now imagine having no health boost to tank early game, what would that make of you? do u think armor alone will help u survive?

the only time i will agree that vanguard is useless is when it already reaches late game(for the ppl who are new to the games mechanic, late game basically means when most of the players have reach there maximum level and have farmed a considerably amount of decent items). that will be the only time vanguard would be useless.

seriously if u where to advice that vanguard is bad for axe atleast in early game( legionnaire in HoN terms) then i would highly suggest that you keep your advices to yourself since u clearly don't know what your talking about. you should keep in mind that there are alot of ppl new to Dota( in this case HoN), so pls don't give bad advice to them cuz then they will never learn how to play this game properly.

[Himura1]

Vanguard is a terrible choice for him because,

1) it scales badly
2) with that 2k, you could be getting better items.
3) since u counter with early game VG uses, a STR hero should not have any problems of enemies having high DPS early game =] and dont forget early game you wont have dagger so when going to call they will be nuking u already. so a hood would be much better.

[Isin]

Nope. Try again.

You're pathetic. Not only are you posting like a complete and total ass hole, you're also WRONG. Vanguard works very well on Axe.

What, exactly, would you be buying with that 2k? Don't say blink dagger, because you get that before you finish your vanguard.

[Magus1]

You're pathetic. Not only are you posting like a complete and total ass hole, you're also WRONG. Vanguard works very well on Axe.

What, exactly, would you be buying with that 2k? Don't say blink dagger, because you get that before you finish your vanguard.

Hood. A stout or 2 is more than enough to reduce damage income efficiently.

[Himura1]

You're pathetic. Not only are you posting like a complete and total ass hole, you're also WRONG. Vanguard works very well on Axe.

What, exactly, would you be buying with that 2k? Don't say blink dagger, because you get that before you finish your vanguard.

people keep saying vanguard is the best item to get. it's not.

everytime i've gotten vanguard on axe, i've always wish i hadnt ^^

this discussion has been done countless times at DA. go read up on it first ya?

hood is 10times better on him because early game, physical damage is nowhere near as spells.

wonder who's more pathetic here? even going to use profanities ^^;

stouts are more then enough on axe. regen and hp can be gotten from other items.

[S8_Eclipse]

Since vanguard is not an axe item.
lolwut

[Rengan]

An early vanguard gives axe the health regen to tank repeatedly, the damage reduction to tank creeps and not lose health, and ~25% increase to hp. Even if it does have the same damage reduction as two stouts, it has more benefits and half the item slots. There's also no reason you can't just get hood as well, and you almost always should.

For both neutrals and lane creeps, vanguard effectively reduces all damage when it procs, which is quite a large percent of the time. Considering how often axe needs to be getting his by creeps in addition to heroes in order to proc helixes, this item is essentially made for him.

Saying it scales badly is a weak argument. It's still a cheap item that provides great bonuses besides the damage blocking, and many hero builds include items like bracers or exile talismans that you usually get rid of later anyway. That doesn't make them any less valuable. Someone also made the point that it is used for agressive fb play. While it can be abused as such at low levels, it is first and foremost a tanking item, Axe/;egionnare is first and foremost a tanking hero. I don't see why people think it's so terrible on him.

[KingCool1]

My god it's almost like item builds should be adapted to the situation for optimal performance. What a novel idea.

[Lywrek]

It's for weak heroes that need an extra boost. Legionnare however, does not need it. His taunt gives him enough armor to survive when people are hitting him, then he needs magic defence prior to vanguards.

rawr flame wars

[proffz]

Pointless argument, let them continuously get a vanguard because they think its correct. (Which its absolutely not.)

[ScythedBlade]

Pointless argument, let them continuously get a vanguard because they think its correct. (Which its absolutely not.)

says a noob ... =P

Anyway, here's one correct statement: Vanguard has synergy with Axe/Legionnaire's skills ... Now the only problem is, is it the BEST item for axe at a certain point.

Now before we get onto anything substantial, please realize that no, there's no such thing as a BEST item. Everything is very situational. Hell, who the hell goes for magic resistance when the entire opposing team doesn't nuke? See my point?

Most of the time, 2x Stout shield is sorta better. But I always got the vanguard to deal with creep waves, only so that creep waves did 1s a lot ... (WHICH is a big difference compared to creep waves doing 7 when using 2x stout) ...

[proffz]

Spending 2k gold to kill creep waves faster and provide little to no benefit in a team fight = win. Keep it up "pro"

[Lionguild]

His ult is what rapes mages, other then that his mana burn can be much more useful on "non-mages" to drain what little mana they have rendering them to just auto attacks and what ever passives they may have.

[asukhama]

i don't find having a physical attack bonus to be worthless on legionaire. I usually play teamed up with a friend who plays electrician. It's pretty crucial in our attempt to rape enemy heroes by having electrician stun him and me hitting him meanwhile untill he's health is below the requirement for Decapitate.

On mages that is usually not an issue, but in order to handle encounters such as the kraken, swiftblade (which tend to have more health/defense/.. whatever) i need more damage output to get him below the decap hp rate

[Ryoma]

People keep talking about 2k gold wasted on Axe...

On which item required for Vanguard - while playing Axe - is your gold wasted?
The stout shield?
The 5 hp reg early on making tangos obsolete?
Or the extra hp?

Since you need at least one stout shield and hp reg early on with Axe anyway, I'd guess it's the extra hp.
But Axe with more hp isn't exactly worthless and getting extra hp to free up some inventory slots while improving your existing items (stout shield blocks more and vita booster gives more hp that way) doesn't mean you're wasting money.

For me, it depends on my enemies.

Back to topic:
Axe is hard to kill with Magebane, especially with creeps around.
While you may run out of mana quickly, his damage will go down as well once you have no mana. His fast attack speed works actually against him, it will trigger your passive like crazy.
If he isn't fed, you shouldn't have too much trouble. If you are on an equal level item wise, it is quite dangerous for him to burn you out of mana.

[asukhama]

People keep talking about 2k gold wasted on Axe...

On which item required for Vanguard - while playing Axe - is your gold wasted?
The stout shield?
The 5 hp reg early on making tangos obsolete?
Or the extra hp?

Since you need at least one stout shield and hp reg early on with Axe anyway, I'd guess it's the extra hp.
But Axe with more hp isn't exactly worthless and getting extra hp to free up some inventory slots while improving your existing items (stout shield blocks more and vita booster gives more hp that way) doesn't mean you're wasting money.

For me, it depends on my enemies.

Back to topic:
Axe is hard to kill with Magebane, especially with creeps around.
While you may run out of mana quickly, his damage will go down as well once you have no mana. His fast attack speed works actually against him, it will trigger your passive like crazy.
If he isn't fed, you shouldn't have too much trouble. If you are on an equal level item wise, it is quite dangerous for him to burn you out of mana.

i second the attack speed of magebane being his own downfall against a legio. In essence, legio's don't need mana per se as their passive is non-mana requiring and perfectly deal with melee heroes if he's equipped for it. Despite his low to average base damage, the wirlwind is where the damage comes from.

I mostly even try to lure other heroes into fighting me when there are creeps nearby. I taunt them into having attack me as well (their damage is usually neglectable by then) just so my odds for wirlwind stack up even more.

[EnragedCamel]

Shouldn't the whole Vanguard vs. Hood thing depend on what heroes the opposing team has?

If they have lots of casters, go Hood. Otherwise, go Vanguard. It shouldn't be such a hard decision that it takes 4 pages to answer.

[sakatana]

tl:dr. Axe + Vanguard = Stand between the towers and farm creeps. (really only works in pubbies)

Really though, Vanguard (Helm of the Black Legion) is rather inexpensive and can be farmed up really quickly. 2k gold is easy, plus early on the armor buff and the HP regen is nice.

As for Magebane, I've had a similar discussion with my friends about him (in DotA and HoN). We agree that he's less of a "mage bane" as he is a "mana bane." Saying he's a "counter" to Legionnaire is a stretch, though. Sure, you make Legionnaire go out of mana real quick, but then what? You use your ultimate and do 600 damage before armor? Sure, it's a good chunk of health, but nothing to a tanker like Legionnaire, that's about 1/3 my typical HP when playing him endgame. Put in short: Enough for a kill, but not that great considering Pyromancer does that at level 11... a million times before going oom.

Also, assuming the team is all roughly the same, you shouldn't be targetting Legionnaire in a team battle to start, however he should be the target of long-duration disables because of his taunt. Your abilities and damage will be much more useful against other heroes. Magebane works well if you get the jump on a hero with a medium sized mana pool and relatively low HP (agi-caster) from what I've seen.

[zerospades]

Well actually you will be forced to hit him with physical attacks cause of taunt. and 3-4 seconds hitting only him? he would have gained a lot of damage without any proper protection.

[kingcomrade]

I have this huge silly grin on my face now, thanks
He's right. Axe does not need a Vanguard. He already has enormous armor when he calls.

[AzgoreOrdrin]

axe counter any range with decent attack speed and a monkey king bar or buriza

since there are no pure dmgers as say destroyer enchantress silencer

[Aldy]

What items would you give Axe in general?
2x Shields + Vanguard/Shaman Headress (Hood?) + Portal Key(Dagger) + Behemonth Heart (Heart) ?

No weapons and or amour needed?

[AzgoreOrdrin]

guess the phase boots armor is enough

[Kayel]

My god it's almost like item builds should be adapted to the situation for optimal performance. What a novel idea.

This.

[AzgoreOrdrin]

there are universal items that are a must have with axe any game

[Llama]

maybe not so much a counter, but a lego without mana is pretty useless, and it will require him to get some sort of burst mana regen if he wants to try gank the lane or something

[Breakfast2]

ITT: Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls.

[AzgoreOrdrin]

^dont call yourself all those nasty things

[Intro]

Counter of Axe (Legionaire) was obviously Huskar - thats why i still feel bad without him.

[Avi1231]

Counter of Axe (Legionaire) was obviously Huskar - thats why i still feel bad without him.

Man, I love Huskar. This thread really reminded me that I can't wait till all the DotA heroes are in. A moderator at one point said that S2 is aiming to get all the current (6.61) DotA heroes into HoN before release. This game rocks faces!

[Jo]

If magebane is already hitting you, the tank, the taunt doesen't matter (although the extra armor is nice), things are allready proceeding as you should want them to. what's the problem?

As for legionair counter I'd say any ranged agi, arachna is especially effective.

[Devilhate]

I dont really get your point, is there any problem ??? You are trying to answer your question yourself or? why do you even post this. its a unclear question with a blurry answer, mixxed in in the unclear fudge itself.

[bloodwrath1]

that hero is a weaker rmk of axe

[a_cloth]

Yes he is/ magebane counters strength heros with low mana pools