Laughing at LFP recruitment - We don't need carry players!

[china]

A lot of the clans that are recruiting recruit based on roles - but a lot of them are looking exclusively for non-carry players.

I.E.
Don't need a carry player!
Only require support players!
Etc. etc.

These are the kinds of clans already filled with obnoxious players who play to satisfy their role as stat padders. While playing carry is an essential role, it is not one that is the most skill-based. It is the support and the gankers and the middle that carry the 'carry' until he gets farmed up, where we then see a reversal of roles.

So when looking for a clan, look for the ones that are seeking good players, and not ones that say 'If you want to play carry, do not apply.' Chances are, they can't carry well anyways, and are already thick-skulled and won't take any constructive criticism towards their play. They lack humility and probably think that KD ratio represents the best player.

Real teams pocket their pride and accept role changes and benches.

-end.

(TL;DR - bad clans select preemptively based on roles instead of skill level. It doesn't matter if you're better at me when it comes to carrying, because we only want you to be ward *****! That mentality brings a clan/team nowhere.)

[Chipper]

woop i'm doing something right

[china]

woop i'm doing something right

Yeah.

Also, if you look at the top clans that are recruiting, or at least, the more 'recognized' clans (QuC/FyC/FFS/etc. etc.) recruitment is based on skill. And typically, when you're at a high level, you play most of everything at a high level, excluding things like Valkyrie/Pudge (Positioning sense is all it is, as well as some degree of estimation. For some players this is more difficult.) and Meepo/Chen (Microing comes difficult to some players as well).

If you're a serious team looking for serious players, the only requirements I see should be ..

Must be from Continent X or be able to play during our primetime.
Must be able to scrim/play in tournys.
Must be good and flexible.
Must have mic.

Stringent requirements like age, and language really don't matter. In DotA, you have international players that own, because they speak the language of 'pro', basically.

I'd also gladly take a 12 year old brasilian (As ironic as that is) that plays like Vigoss/Ice.

[maos]

Or it could be the fact that most of the players in this game prefer a carry role(has little to do with skill) so those spots fills up faster than everything else.

If you're expecting clans to not have roles you should wake up from the dream you're in.

[XTN2]

totally aggre with OP on this one.

imho, in most games i feel that the support actually carries the game. Without a good baseline of wards, ganks and teleport-save their teammates and etc,etc...these so-called "carriers" cant farm well enough to carry their team to the late game.


i can start the debate with the support-to-carrier comparison list, but you gotta aggre with me at some point that support players require more "skill"/microing/map awareness than carriers

[maos]

Yeah I agree XTN it requires more skill to play support, but what he's saying is that they shouldn't be recruiting roles, they should be recruiting skilled players instead.
If that's not what he meant then I apologize :)

The reason these clans recruit players instead of roles is probably because they don't have any favourite roles and master all of them, while most of the other clans (mine included) don't play as good with every hero and role in the game and have a favourite that we prefer to play. For example I find myself playing initiation almost every game, because I enjoy it alot more than carry. If I were to disband this clan and join a new one I wouldn't like to carry only because I might be better at it than the carry.

[Blavo]

Good teams/players are always flexible, that is one of the reasons they have so much success. However, having a role in a team is definitely not a bad thing.

For example, I tend to play gank/support for our team rather than carry. That doesn't mean I'm not capable of playing carry, but I know that we have other people who have traditionally played that role well.

I think you'll find that most teams do have loosely defined "roles" but those may change depending on specific heroes that certain players excel with.

[`aNarchy]

Yeah I agree XTN it requires more skill to play support, but what he's saying is that they shouldn't be recruiting roles, they should be recruiting skilled players instead.
If that's not what he meant then I apologize :)

The reason these clans recruit players instead of roles is probably because they don't have any favourite roles and master all of them, while most of the other clans (mine included) don't play as good with every hero and role in the game and have a favourite that we prefer to play. For example I find myself playing initiation almost every game, because I enjoy it alot more than carry. If I were to disband this clan and join a new one I wouldn't like to carry only because I might be better at it than the carry.

lololol what you play has nothing to do with who you recruit. good players (on any team, not HON/DotA specifically) play whatever is needed by the team.

OP has a point, but is also creating useless topics like this one :D

[maos]

What you play can have everything to do with who you recruit, you can't expect every player in this game to play every hero absolutely perfect, most of the players in this game have favourite heroes and playstyles which they play more. It's just normal to recruit players who know how to play those roles then rather than using someone who doesn't play support that often as a support, you can only expect the top teams to recruit players who plays anything well.

I'm 100% sure you have weak heroes as well, anarchy, there's really no point in denying it because almost everyone has. Not admitting you do just makes you a failure.

[F8]

OP has a point, but is also creating useless topics like this one :D
This topic is anything but useless.

[stevefox]

Excellent point F8. I agree that dynamic roles and flexibility are necessary for competitive success.

[Grinning]

probably think that KD ratio represents the best player.



and that's why they are recruiting support players? I like your logic.


Anyways, if I get into such a clan now I won't play as a carry not because I can't but because there is a player that already is settled as the carry player for the team... apparently!

[china]

Good teams/players are always flexible, that is one of the reasons they have so much success. However, having a role in a team is definitely not a bad thing.

For example, I tend to play gank/support for our team rather than carry. That doesn't mean I'm not capable of playing carry, but I know that we have other people who have traditionally played that role well.

I think you'll find that most teams do have loosely defined "roles" but those may change depending on specific heroes that certain players excel with.

That's it. I'm running into so many clans that have 'the carry,' that are looking for support players for that carry. It's preemptively giving roles to certain players when an entire roster isn't even complete. When a team is setting out to recruit players, they're playing with a very static mindset. Their reluctance to adjust to new settings is what will weaken them.

There's more to a fine team besides establishing roles, especially so prematurely.


Or it could be the fact that most of the players in this game prefer a carry role(has little to do with skill) so those spots fills up faster than everything else.

If you're expecting clans to not have roles you should wake up from the dream you're in.

I realize this, but roles are established when teams have that familiarity.

Player X has been newly recruited, while Player Y has been on the team.

Player X is 7 at support. <- Supports
Player X is 10 at carrying.
Player Y is 8 at support.
Player Y is 9 at carrying. <- Carries

Wouldn't it be wiser for the roles to be reversed? It's more complicated than that, with player strengths in certain heroes, etc. But that's what I'm saying.

You do what's better for the team, overall, even if it's causing certain players to relinquish their role for a match, or even their spot on the A roster.

1: Ronaldo must score every goal. If you get the ball, pass it to Ronaldo.

2: What if I can score?

1: If it's not 100% chance, pass to Ronaldo.

2: What if it's a 75% chance?

1: Pass to Ronaldo.

2: What if Ronaldo misses with his 75% chance?

1: Just keep passing to Ronaldo.

2: What if I miss with my 75% chance?

1: Should've passed it to Ronaldo.

2: Wait, what??

I posted this when I got really distraught at how lower/mid level teams are recruiting, from what I've seen in games and what I've seen on the forums. Meant overall to be thought ignition.

How should a new team begin/operate?

[Glorify1]

Except that a lot of recent matches are mid/weak feeding while Fenald babysits me to 15 minutes and roams since the lanes all collapse - winning because of his babysit and my carry.

[maos]

I get what you're saying F8 and I sort of agree with you, it's just hard to recruit five players and then say "You're not good enough as support as XxScoutmasterxX so you'll have to carry" even though he might not like the carry role so much. If that person then decides he doesn't want to stay if he can't play the role he prefers you have to recruit another player and see if he's better at support than the first player again or if he's playing carry, or ganker, or .. you get my point :)

But yes, if there was a simple way to do it I'd also recruit players and not roles.

[weeD`SuFFo]

Having a role inside ur team isn't a bad thing. It will become bad if your players can't play anything else, cuz then u can't try new strategies to surprise the enemy team.

But most team fails when players just SWITCH roles for fun or anything else, i've seen it manytimes in dota. Its all about having more experience on what you're doing.

[Blavo]

Except that a lot of recent matches are mid/weak feeding while Fenald babysits me to 15 minutes and roams since the lanes all collapse - winning because of his babysit and my carry.

Weird, I've never seen that happen. :)

[HatDucks]

You guys don't know what your talking about, Carries are the most skill intensive/most important position. That being said you should be versatile and able to play most anything if you want to be considered a good player.

[china]

You guys don't know what your talking about, Carries are the most skill intensive/most important position. That being said you should be versatile and able to play most anything if you want to be considered a good player.

I know it's important, but who does the carry rely on early/mid?

Essentially, support/middle/roam etc. all carry the 'carry' until the roles are reversed, where they must depend on him to lead the way.

I disagree with it being the most skill intensive though.

[Von_Moltke]

Versatility is key. I'd much rather have players playing the heroes they are best at (every player has a few choice heroes they really like playing and do better than other heroes with) than remaining mired in "I'm the carry you're the support" mentality. If the guy who plays an amazing Demented Shaman can play a beast Dark Lady then he should be on that hero if say D Shaman got banned/picked already and TDL was chosen as carry, even if it meant the 'carry' player would actually be playing support or a ganker instead. I think if you look at teams like [5] and WHP you can see these predefined 'carry' and 'babysitter' roles are regularly switched up.

[stevefox]

Keep it on topic plz.

[SalsaSauce]

Example? Check [5]Testie, who always play carry or at least semi-carry heroes. Try giving him a support hero and check the result. I saw it and it wasn't any good :D

[Cheese]

Well, first off, I'd ask the OP, "why does this matter?" Are you looking to play carry for a team and everyone is looking for supports? And what's with this argument about what takes the most "skill"? Saying that support takes more "skill" or that carry takes more "skill" or that solo takes more "skill" or that specialty heroes take more "skill" is really pointless. A player in any role can win or lose a game for the team at any level of play. Play what will help the team win, I think we agree there.

The mathematical argument that was presented is correct but there are multiple problems. Most importantly, the variables are not readily observable. It would take many, many games to decide that Player X is a level 7 support/level 10 carry etc. And people might watch the exact same games and draw different conclusions.

A NEW team should be open to any and all possibilities, but over time, players playing together are going to establish chemistry. A huge component of that chemistry is hero specialization. You can have superb overall game sense and talent, but eventually that just doesn't hack it. You have to utterly and completely master the heroes you want to play. No one can be the best player in the world with every single hero, and even if you could, your time would better be spent staying really sharp with a smaller pool of heroes.

So, are some of these teams being short-sighted and selfish in their motivations to play carry? Probably, but not all of them. It's very difficult to integrate a new player into an established team if the new player is going to noticeably upset the balance that has been struck. Some teams just know what they are looking for to make themselves a better team with the fewest changes.

[china]

Well, first off, I'd ask the OP, "why does this matter?"

A NEW team should be open to any and all possibilities, but over time, players playing together are going to establish chemistry.

So, are some of these teams being short-sighted and selfish in their motivations to play carry?

It matters because I want those teams to read this thread. The second two things I clipped from your post is what I was getting at.

And no, I haven't been trying to carry for teams :] It's just a recurring thing I see in recruitment posts that I read. All too recurring.

[HatDucks]

I know it's important, but who does the carry rely on early/mid?

Essentially, support/middle/roam etc. all carry the 'carry' until the roles are reversed, where they must depend on him to lead the way.

I disagree with it being the most skill intensive though.

A good carry player is not someone who sits in lane and farms all game but is able to do everything the supports are doing and more. Supports generally have it easy in the lane, they got spam spells and ranged attacks, while carries have to be last hitting every single creep (as possible) maintaining there hp and watching out for ganks(its easier to gank most carries then a support). In high tier games carries are also expected to be involved in team battles just like the support players the difference is, that they also need to maintain there farm. Carry is essentially an incoporation of all the other roles combined into one. The best carry players should be able to play any roles for this reason.

Testie is an amazing farmer(from when i played with him) but his amazing farm skill makes up for his lack of game sense. He did not really seem to play an a optimal kill sense(he wouldn't get kills in situations where he could of). The best player in hon(at least who i consider) Chu if you notice is actively involved in team fights and ganks just like a ganking hero, but he is at the same time maintaining his farm. Its a highly demenading position.

[Glorify1]

they got spam spells and ranged attacks, while carries have to be last hitting every single creep

It's the supports that allow you to last hit creeps. It's the supports who keep the harass off of you while last hitting so you maintain enough regen to stay in the lane.

[Fenald]

Lasthitting is easy babysitting is where it's at.

[sr8]

funny seeing how anyone who says "carrying = sign of high skill" has likely never played support/gank for a very, very long time.

Versatility is key. The best players are versatile at all roles. Check out Loda, plays excellent ward ***** and gank.

[Cheese]

A good carry player is not someone who sits in lane and farms all game but is able to do everything the supports are doing and more. Supports generally have it easy in the lane, they got spam spells and ranged attacks, while carries have to be last hitting every single creep (as possible) maintaining there hp and watching out for ganks(its easier to gank most carries then a support).

Early on, carries focus on last-hit. Standout supports balance harass, deny, and last-hit for creeps that the carry can't get. Later on, carries take on a more demanding role because the monetary investment in them allows them to dictate battle outcomes. So, it's a trade-off! I find it impressive to see any role played to perfection.


Testie is an amazing farmer(from when i played with him) but his amazing farm skill makes up for his lack of game sense.He did not really seem to play an a optimal kill sense(he wouldn't get kills in situations where he could of).

This isn't Mike[P] we're talkin' 'bout here. If Testie weren't a solid, fully well-rounded player, then we wouldn't bother facilitating him like we do. He also only plays games where the opponent is controlled by a real-life human being.


The best player in hon(at least who i consider) Chu if you notice is actively involved in team fights and ganks just like a ganking hero, but he is at the same time maintaining his farm. Its a highly demenading position.

Saying Chu is a sick HoN player is like saying you are morally opposed to rape. I will also take a really daring stand and say that, yes, Chu is awesome, and yes, rape is bad.

[HatDucks]

Early on, carries focus on last-hit. Standout supports balance harass, deny, and last-hit for creeps that the carry can't get. Later on, carries take on a more demanding role because the monetary investment in them allows them to dictate battle outcomes. So, it's a trade-off! I find it impressive to see any role played to perfection.
Ya i hear ya, my point is just there is overall more dynamics and demand on the carry hero then there are on the supports heroes. I'm not down playing good support players, They is alot of skill involved with support. I just believe carry is the most skill intensive position.



This isn't Mike[P] we're talkin' 'bout here. If Testie weren't a solid, fully well-rounded player, then we wouldn't bother facilitating him like we do. He also only plays games where the opponent is controlled by a real-life human being.

I was not saying he is a bad player, he is def a solid player. I just believe he has a lot of room for improvement and he is more a traditional afk farm, non involvement carry and I mean i've only played with him a couple times. So maybe i don't really have a full grasp of what he is capable of, i dunno. It is just what i got from the couple games i have played with him.



Saying Chu is a sick HoN player is like saying you are morally opposed to rape. I will also take a really daring stand and say that, yes, Chu is awesome, and yes, rape is bad.

lolz, what?

[zhatan]

If you think lasthitting is the most skill intensive thing in the game, then yeah, carries depend most on skill. Also, if you think that carries should do all the things gankers/support do + carry then you are gonna end up knee deep in brown.

If you dont, but think that initating/ganking/harrasing/map awarness etc. are equally imporantant then no, carries are just as skill intensive as everyone else. Just diffrent at diffrent times.

[RogerDodger]

I find carries way harder to play (well) than support / ganker heroes, this could also be the cause of why I play gankers a lot.

It's all about playstyle, no one type of hero is harder then the other to pull off well.

[entrails]

So, are some of these teams being short-sighted and selfish in their motivations to play carry? Probably, but not all of them. It's very difficult to integrate a new player into an established team if the new player is going to noticeably upset the balance that has been struck. Some teams just know what they are looking for to make themselves a better team with the fewest changes.

This hits the nail on the head, and shows why making fun of this recruitment policy is kind of stupid. Yeah, some teams might have a leader who's more concerned with being a star than helping the team as a whole, and he's just looking to protect his spot, but there are other teams who already have a chemistry and practice on certain heroes who really need someone to fill a certain role so they can all continue to do what they excel at.

You could even read the original quote "We don't need carry players!" as meaning we don't need people who refuse to play anything but carry. Maybe they are looking for versatile players, but the OP seems to have interpreted it the opposite way and assumed the worst.

[china]

You could even read the original quote "We don't need carry players!" as meaning we don't need people who refuse to play anything but carry. Maybe they are looking for versatile players, but the OP seems to have interpreted it the opposite way and assumed the worst.

If you browse some of the LFP recruitment, they already have set carries. Having things set when you don't have a full roster is a pretty bad mistake IMO. It's like gathering a group of players, and as every individual comes in you assign them a role, instead of wisely assigning roles after assessing what players can play, etc. More complicated than that, but whatever.

[Grinning]

I'd much rather have players playing the heroes they are best at


Nothing stops them to do so.

A carry player is not "the carry player of the team" because the team leader said "you'll be the carry", but mostly because the player is good with carry heroes, likes them and has earned some recognition while playing such heroes.

[Blavo]

Lol... I've played with Testie as a support hero (on rare occasions) and he plays just fine. Everybody has room for improvement, but Testie is definitely one of the elite players. Whether or not he is better than Chu is impossible to tell, they're both great players.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Let me put it this way.

A good support player CAN win you a game sometimes.
A bad carry player WILL lose you the game.

It's normal that teams are not willing to risk a new carry player, whoever he is.

[garblax]

Let me put it this way.

A good support player CAN win you a game sometimes.
A bad carry player WILL lose you the game.

It's normal that teams are not willing to risk a new carry player, whoever he is.

A bad support player WILL lose you the game too, so I don't understand your point here.

[JewishNinja]

Ever try playing disabling support late game? You get targetted first always, and if you miss a stun your team loses.

Same with tempest in a "even" game.

Higher stress than playing carries.

[china]

Lawl, we're straying off topic with the most important roles debate here.

IMO, if both sides have middle solo, its the middle role that controls the game the most ^^

[china]

Your point with this thread is.... ?

Boost your own ego as carry?

lol, really?

Point is - teams shouldn't recruit with such a flawed method. It's apparent in a great many of the recruitment threads.

That is, if you bothered to even look at them.

[Lyte]

Generally, you have your best players on the carry/roaming ganker/babysitter.

For a new team just starting up, you are rarely going to recruit a player that is better than the rest of your current roster. You likely have 3-4 players that are used to building a game strategy around 1 player as the carry. Sure, a new player might be a better carry, but it is still better in the vast majority of cases to start new players at the support positions to maintain prior team chemistry. After playing together for a period, then you learn who can adapt and switch roles.

Consider the fact the carry has to join team fights while maintaining farm in his lane, while the babysitter often has to 1v2 many diverse lanes to keep up harassment so the carry is unaffected. It's hard to argue against the fact that these two positions are some of the most important in the game. As support in the other lane (assuming roaming ganker is mid), all you have to do is maintain your lane and your team will enter mid-game with an opportunity to win.

[lumino`]

Having played for 2 years myself in the top Dota community I can safely say that both parties got a point in this debate.

Saying that a carry requires more skill then support players because they need to incorporate all roles in one, is wrong.
A carry player's role is defined by 3 ways.
1. He needs to be aware of the map to insure the maximum amount of farm, within the smallest amount of time, with the smallest amount of risk.
2. The player needs to have the insight when to run, when to chase, and when to engage at any point in the game. A dying carry, is a failing carry.
3. During mid-endgame the carry must insure the maximum amount of effect in battles, else he will fail at carrying.

Now a support player has a total different role.
1. He needs to be altruistic. Meaning he should know when to sacrifice himself, to sacrifice his farm, and to think in teamterms rather then I terms at all times.
2. A support player needs to know at all times when he is needed on the map for his team. He needs to be mobile, he needs to be proactive, and above all he needs to spot the opponents carry position at all time.
3. A support player needs to make the best out of himself with very limited amount of resources. You have to supply your team with wards, you can not linger around in lanes to farm, and if possible you should give the kills to your carry player. While doing this, and with little to no items, you should still contribute fully to your team.

Saying that good/best players can fulfill every task in dota, and are flexible in that way are only partially right.
Good players already have all the skillsets to be focused/insightfull to compete in the game. However every persons nature is different.
Agressive natures tend to be better in certain roles then passive natures. Also the Egocentric player, how nasty this might sounds, might be better in a carry role, then a pure babysit role.

[Infas]

A carry player, is a overall player, so he can be support player. Am i wrong?

[china]

Also the Egocentric player, how nasty this might sounds, might be better in a carry role, then a pure babysit role.

Oh how true this is.

[ThiaZ]

very good point F8..

And i totally agree, and some in the clans i have been in, i can only agree about the description about the "carry role" carrier. Often it is also the leader of the clan.

Many low tier teams have misunderstood what it is which makes a top tier team.
I hope many will read this topic

[Frenchy1]

i prefer semi carry
potm/naix/necro cause i base my game play on ganking!
that mean no 35 min farming item like specter need,scout,am,silecer ect...
and a good suport can also carry (lina,sk)
all good player can play almost everything...
in ur team u should know whos betther with somme hero
i m a really good suport,i can carry but i dont like to farm 35 min i prefer to baby sit

it depend of what role ur the best!

[knallfrosch]

You can't look for high-skill non-carries?

[Mellow]

I would like to note that it seems that the carry is usually the teamleader, leading the team around telling people where to go/what to do.

[ma5]

Yo I was on like a 300+ game spree of only carries until I played with you F8 and ended up babysitting you. **** that, I'd rather join clans that force me a role to avoid that eye-gauging task.

Nah, I play roamer and ganker too.

[Senfei]

Having played for 2 years myself in the top Dota community I can safely say that both parties got a point in this debate.

Saying that a carry requires more skill then support players because they need to incorporate all roles in one, is wrong.
A carry player's role is defined by 3 ways.
1. He needs to be aware of the map to insure the maximum amount of farm, within the smallest amount of time, with the smallest amount of risk.
2. The player needs to have the insight when to run, when to chase, and when to engage at any point in the game. A dying carry, is a failing carry.
3. During mid-endgame the carry must insure the maximum amount of effect in battles, else he will fail at carrying.

Now a support player has a total different role.
1. He needs to be altruistic. Meaning he should know when to sacrifice himself, to sacrifice his farm, and to think in teamterms rather then I terms at all times.
2. A support player needs to know at all times when he is needed on the map for his team. He needs to be mobile, he needs to be proactive, and above all he needs to spot the opponents carry position at all time.
3. A support player needs to make the best out of himself with very limited amount of resources. You have to supply your team with wards, you can not linger around in lanes to farm, and if possible you should give the kills to your carry player. While doing this, and with little to no items, you should still contribute fully to your team.

Saying that good/best players can fulfill every task in dota, and are flexible in that way are only partially right.
Good players already have all the skillsets to be focused/insightfull to compete in the game. However every persons nature is different.
Agressive natures tend to be better in certain roles then passive natures. Also the Egocentric player, how nasty this might sounds, might be better in a carry role, then a pure babysit role.


AMEN
/signed