Suggestion: Magic attack

[TrueLolzor]

I find some spells too overpowered on low levels and too useless on high levels. For example, Pyromancer's Phoenix Wave hurting very painful at beggining and can only make enemy heroes tickle a little or kill hero with around 5% hp left. In this case, S2 Team added "Magic armor" stat(in original war3 there is no magic armor, there is only natural hero magic resistance and magic resistance abilities, which do not stack with each other, both, hero and item abilities). Heroes can buy magic resistance items. But it cant be countered from other side... So, why you dont add "Magic attack" stat, which will somehow affect some spells, which uses magic damage? With this new stat you will have more opportunities to design new items, buff- and debuff-spells for items and heroes, that will affect magic attack stats permanently or temporarily and make some spells more usable.

Discuss it, please.

[Tyrando]

I always thought it natural for that ability to become a farming tool late game tbh, which is why he was given an Ultimate which is probably the hardest single target nuke ingame?

[Kry1]

Adding spellpower boosting items would be an interesting addition to HoN and add more depth in itemization to int heroes. Instead of gearing for survivability or more mana, there is an option for gearing towards offense.

Obviously serious balance considerations will have to be considered, but boosting ability power is something that may have been a limitation of the war3 engine (we see it with ults only).

[edxs]

Adding spellpower boosting items would be an interesting addition to HoN and add more depth in itemization to int heroes. Instead of gearing for survivability or more mana, there is an option for gearing towards offense.

Obviously serious balance considerations will have to be considered, but boosting ability power is something that may have been a limitation of the war3 engine (we see it with ults only).

In WC3 those abilities were actually swapped with a more powerful version.

It makes more sense to have an actual magic damage boost. It could apply to your Pyromancer/Glacius/Codex/Behemoth/whatever, and save Staff of the Master for ultimates that don't deal direct damage like Voodoo Jester, Pollywog, etc.

[ma5]

Magic armor = natural hero resistance. It's the same as in DotA. He's fine in DotA and fine in HoN. Instead, try getting better magic items to deal DPS or stall for your cooldowns such as Codex, sheepstick, shivas, ulti stick and silence stick.

[Volshok]

Eh, I don't support it. DotA is balance around progression. Adding spell power boosts would mean that nuke heroes would dominate early, mid, and potentially late game, meaning that the need to play a carry would be pointless.

[rhodric1]

Adding magic attack would make anything other than casters obsolete. You can't have heroes owning early mid AND late game.

[BinAly]

I find some spells too overpowered on low levels and too useless on high levels.

Discuss it, please.

One of the sollutions would be creating all Magic-Attack-Spells based on Hit-Points % instead of actual points of damage.

This way, they would behave equally powerful from the beggining to the end of the Game.

For example, if the Design team wants Pyromancer to kill heroes if they let him hit 5 Phoenix Waves on them, the skill could just cause 20% of Total HP in damage instead of 300 points of damage.

This would actually mean that things are easier to balance, but would also mean that Casters stay as effective in the late-game as they where in the early-game.

If the Devs aren't aiming for this, I wouldn't recoment this change.

[Pzzz10uS]

Well, because Magic Armor is a 'stat' you can more easily make abilities/items that buff/debuff it.

Per example, a new caster item that gave a -Magic Armor aura to the enemy team.

You can accomplish what you want (the ability to increase magical damage) without creating a new stat, because of the way Magic Armor works.

[Soulspawn]

there is a problem with that idea in that a combo of defiler + pyro + zeus would kill any group no matter what health they have.

also ya -magic armor already in the orchid i think does this, if not they probably will add an item to do this

[TrueLolzor]

MA - in dota there is no "+10 magic armor", there is only "10% magic resistance", so, if you buying two "10% mag.res.", only one will works. And, in dota Magina's passive mag.res. do not stack with items mag.res.
Powerful spells, like Pyro's ult, dont requires magic attack affection, eh. So, they can be easely exluded from list of spells, affected by magic attack stat. When the others, more weak, will need it alot. Base spell damage can be lowered in price of entering magic attack stat.

[ma5]

No, anti-mage's passive has always stacked with items like Hood in DotA. What I was saying is Magic Armor is just a visual representation of magic resistance in DotA, nothing more, it works the same way.

[TrueLolzor]

Lol? Dude, I know war3 mechanics well. Magina's magic res in war just CANT stack with with items like hood cause they based all on one ability, and, like sum1 said before me, game just picks better to take effect.

[Kietharr]

Casters are meant to be good early on and weaker later. If casters scaled into the lategame who would bother playing melee lategame heroes?

[GaIactic]

Adding magic attack would make anything other than casters obsolete. You can't have heroes owning early mid AND late game.


Ya mean like Thunderbringer? God, yes, let's buff his magic damage.

^_-;

[Zejety]

Lol? Dude, I know war3 mechanics well.

Obviously, you don't.
Ability magic resistance has always stacked (with diminishing returns) with item magic resistance if the item had been acquired before the ability was learned.
In a later changelog, the system was recoded to allow stacking of both (again, with dminishing returns) unrelated to order of acquisition (I guess it makes you relearn the ability whenever you pick up an according item).
Why do you think people are buying Hood on Pudge?

[TrueLolzor]

Lol, learn some war3editor before posting something like that. All items bonuses is abilities, added to items. There is no magic resistance ability for hereos originally, so when hero spent skill points on dummy-ability with description, he gains unrevealed ability of mag.res, what is similliar with item mag res ability.
People buy hood on pudge cause they are dumb.

[Mormorbella]

Casters are meant to be good early on and weaker later. If casters scaled into the lategame who would bother playing melee lategame heroes?

I got a new word for everyone out there, REBALANCING. Just becouse it's always been like this doesn't mean it always will have to be like this. With this stat perhaps casters will be stronger lategame, sure, but if u still want the game balanced u'd have to nerf them in some other way.... like decreasing their initial dmg.

A little example.... a spell that now does 300dmg (lvl4) will instead do 200dmg (lvl4) but will do lets say 350-400dmg (lvl4+items) with lategame items... so it won't be that strong earlygame but it will be better late... could still be balanced just not the same.

[Sadhe]

Instead of a new stat it would be better to just have every x int increase the damage of spells by 1.

Even if x is 1 this will not scale to crazily and this way spells scale with leveling and items.

[Hibi1]

I really like the idea of giving casters items that boost their spells, as long as it's done correctly of course.

[Sw4n]

what are you talking about? hood stacks with spellshield and flesh heap in dota. stop talking please. go read about it.

[Falk]

Magic-damage amplification has also existed in DotA and would be pretty accurately represented with HoN's magic armor curve. Pugna's Banish, for example. Hellbringer's third ability already magnifies magic damage, and is pretty devastating mid-game with a caster lineup.

[TrueLolzor]

Maybe, they do something new with spell damage resistance, but original abilities in more older versions do not stack(Last time I played dota is about two years ago).

HoN do not have pugna yet, and Hellbringer is only hero, who has sumthin like that. So, or pray for Hellbringer, or suck?

[Osiris]

Lol, learn some war3editor before posting something like that. All items bonuses is abilities, added to items. There is no magic resistance ability for hereos originally, so when hero spent skill points on dummy-ability with description, he gains unrevealed ability of mag.res, what is similliar with item mag res ability.
People buy hood on pudge cause they are dumb.

There are two abilities provided by WCIII that increase your magic resistance beside the natural 0.75 multiplier. The first ability is 'Spell Damage Reduction' from the item Runed Bracers and the other ability is called Elune's Grace from the Nightelf Techtree. Neither of the two abilities stack with themself but they stack fine with each other. The damagereduction of Planeswalkers Cloak and Hood of Defiance is based on the first ability, Maginas and Pudges skills are based on the latter.
You CAN buy Hood of Defiance on Magina and it will stack with both his natural spell resistance and his spell shield, but you CAN'T stack multiple magicdamage-reducing items.

Btw, the magic armor bonuses of Shaman's Headdress and Mystic Vestmens are exclusive and don't stack in HoN either. That means you can't stack 6 hoods of defiance and will get only the highest magic armor bonus from your items.

[Blessed2]

I really like the idea of giving casters items that boost their spells, as long as it's done correctly of course.

if only there was an item called staff of the masters... OH WAIT!

[Pzzz10uS]

if only there was an item called staff of the masters... OH WAIT!
If Staff of the Master was brought in line with 6.60 Aghs then it'd be fine. Right now there are very few heroes who it even works on, and fewer who it's a good item on.

[ma5]

Lol, learn some war3editor before posting something like that. All items bonuses is abilities, added to items. There is no magic resistance ability for hereos originally, so when hero spent skill points on dummy-ability with description, he gains unrevealed ability of mag.res, what is similliar with item mag res ability.
People buy hood on pudge cause they are dumb.
Sigh, you really don't know War3editor then.

If you did you would know there's a magic resistance item.

That means:
Hero natural resistance + Item res + Trigger/ability based res

I guess the real retards are the ones making accusations similar to yours.

[Paww]

the more hon goes away from dota the more dota players go away form hon leave it the same

[TrueLolzor]

Sigh, you really don't know War3editor then.

If you did you would know there's a magic resistance item.

That means:
Hero natural resistance + Item res + Trigger/ability based res

I guess the real retards are the ones making accusations similar to yours.Sigh, I maked in war3editor more, than you would do in your whole life. "Hero natural resistance" is attribute of "hero" armor type, and there is no bucking item res. Items dont have anything, but they have abilities. And yes, trigger CANT costumize magic resistance, he can only costumize level of ability, that gives magic resistance. So, if there is a real retard somewhere around - its you.

[Osiris]

Sigh, I maked in war3editor more, than you would do in your whole life. "Hero natural resistance" is attribute of "hero" armor type, and there is no bucking item res. Items dont have anything, but they have abilities. And yes, trigger CANT costumize magic resistance, he can only costumize level of ability, that gives magic resistance. So, if there is a real retard somewhere around - its you.

Read my post please. There are two different abilities that increase your magical defense beside the armor reduction that stack.

[ma5]

Sigh, I maked in war3editor more, than you would do in your whole life. "Hero natural resistance" is attribute of "hero" armor type, and there is no bucking item res. Items dont have anything, but they have abilities. And yes, trigger CANT costumize magic resistance, he can only costumize level of ability, that gives magic resistance. So, if there is a real retard somewhere around - its you.
Open up WC3 editor right now.

Runed Bracer uses 'Reduce Magic Damage' then go to Elun's Grace, it does not use 'Reduce Magic Damage'. They do stack.

[willtsay]

hell flower increases your spell dmg >:D and if i remember correctly you can hellflower one dude multiple times (stacking the spell) otherwise just wait for those people that amp magic dmg i.e pugna :) but ya imo magic dmg should not scale as int heroes are mostly for early game pwn, late game disablage-> this is why the majority of int heroes have some sort of innate disable, which imo gets more and more useful later on where your carry can make the most of the 2-3 seconds someones just sitting there. that, and making sure the carry doesn't get pwned in lane

[Glorify1]

Obviously you have no clue what you're talking about.

Magic armor stacks in the same way magic resistance from warcraft 3 does, and the whole point of those heroes are to be strong early while becoming diminishing as the game progresses. Regardless, even late game, a pyro can 1 hit a low hitpoint target no problem.


Btw, the magic armor bonuses of Shaman's Headdress and Mystic Vestmens are exclusive and don't stack in HoN either. That means you can't stack 6 hoods of defiance and will get only the highest magic armor bonus from your items.

You can stack these as much as you want, you can also stack these in DotA, however they have DIMINISHING RETURNS IN BOTH.

[Osiris]

You can stack these as much as you want, you can also stack these in DotA, however they have DIMINISHING RETURNS IN BOTH.

No you can't.


Latest Acquired Stacking:

Spell Resistance from Cloak or Hood

Only the latest acquired will work

http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/Item_Passive_Stacking

Same goes for the items in HoN, except that not the last aquired item grants you its bonus but the item with the highest magic armor value.

[TrueLolzor]

Open up WC3 editor right now.

Runed Bracer uses 'Reduce Magic Damage' then go to Elun's Grace, it does not use 'Reduce Magic Damage'. They do stack.Your last post wasn't about Eluna's Grace :eek:

[ubidat]

Magic is powerfull enough in my opinion ._.
The later the game gets, obviously int heroes will get weaker, but then its your bad for not finishing early ;p
And on the other hand, you get disable items, and a greatly increased mana pool later on, so your spells that "don't do so much damage late game" ... you can spam like crazy...

[CavemanDiary]

Truelolzor Magina can use hood - it bad but he can do it, and they stack diminishingly. Test it yourself instead of spewing out false theory-craft.

Glorify is wrong also.

[TrueLolzor]

ubidat, in late game problem is that you will die faster, than cooldown of this spell will end xD
In other case, tanks gain about no damage from this weak spells and regenerate faster, than you can damage them with those spells.

[Talander]

The fact that you don't want to understand *why* caster heroes HAVE to be weaker lategame is astonishing.

Caster heroes own the first half of the game - it's their job to be good and strong and nuke the hell out of the enemy late gamers. Their late gamers are very weak in the beginning and the job of the casters in their team consists of protecting them so they can farm/level and own lategame.
If casters would never become weaker as the game progresses beyond some point - it would be pretty pointless to have any non-caster heroes at all; thus: you either homogenize the game by making physical damage dealers alot stronger/casters alot weaker in early game and allow spells to scale or you leave the game as-is and have a diverse range of heroes to play more interesting tactics.

But as you can't even admit you're wrong on the -spelldmg effects in dota shows that you're not that interested in facts and useful discussion, but you only want others to say "yes" to your badly thought out ideas.

[edxs]

If there was an item that cost similar to staff of the master and increased spell damage by even 50%, it still wouldn't break anything. You'd have to sacrifice toughness items, support items, disabling items, etc. for nuke improvement, which is still limited primarily by cooldown.

The biggest advantage I see to such a capability is for future development, never mind right now.

[TrueLolzor]

Its intiresting, that all who dont like my idea, use my "non-intirestment in facts of dota" as most importants thing to screw it.
So maybe you discuss idea itself, not bucking me?
And yes, I understand, why, but I dont like that one heroes great on start and nothing on finish, and else. I think, its players, who must make hero something, not game elapsed time.

[Tr1cKSt3R]

I find some spells too overpowered on low levels and too useless on high levels.

Thats how it's SUPPOSED TO BE.

+

STAFF OF THE MASTER = MOAR DMG FOR LOTS OF SPELZ

Or

CODEX

And in most cases you should probably be getting a TOTEM OF KULDRA anyway.

[TrueLolzor]

I talking about balancing existing spells, not about buying new.

[Talander]

As I already told you before (and you obviously ignored it):

It makes the game *MUCH* more interesting if there are heroes that are strong in different parts of the game (aka deciding for your team: which part do we want to dominate in and how do we achieve that).

Looking at MMORPGs and stuff it is obviously possible to have spells scale somewhat in line with physical damage, but it means most of all, that spells would have to completely suck in the first 30minutes or so of the game and only become "strong" later - sounds really boring.
It's the difference in power throughout the game that makes it interesting, aka "can I hold through long enough through dominating enemy team until our lategamer(s) outclass the ones of the other team"?

I understood really well what you were saying, but I don't like it at all. Btw: Casters are always able to get disable-items in lategame to still contribute significantly in fights, they are by no means "useless".

[Himura1]

Lol? Dude, I know war3 mechanics well. Magina's magic res in war just CANT stack with with items like hood cause they based all on one ability, and, like sum1 said before me, game just picks better to take effect.

erm it stacks but u need to get the hood before u learn the skill. =]

[Talander]

erm it stacks but u need to get the hood before u learn the skill. =]

It was even written a few times in this very thread that that isn't true anymore. How comes people fail so hard at reading?