Mid Wars glyph (lack thereof)

[Transvestor]

Greetings, friends.

As you can probably tell from the title, this is essentially a Mid Wars thread, which I realise is not supposed to be a competitive game mode. Nonetheless, this does not mean that the mode does not deserve and require balance discussion.

The relatively recent change to Mid Wars wherein the glyph was removed, I understand was essentially designed to make the games quicker. For the most part this change has succeeded in this respect, disregarding games where both teams choose to camp their bases in fear of losing to a backdoor (which are nowhere near uncommon). However, since the change, I can safely say without the use of hyperbole, that at least 80% of the games that I have played (and that's A LOT of games) have ended due to some form of backdooring. While I and my friends/clanmates have developed measures to protect ourselves (everyone buys posthaste, hoards wards for the lategame and sets couriers to patrol routes, couriers with bulwarks/sheepsticks next to shrine, etc), the measures that are actually required to defend a backdoor are quite frankly ridiculous. Were the glyph to be reintroduced, I believe that Mid Wars would be more fair, more fun and overall faster for everybody involved.

In regular non-core mode Mid Wars, the more effective backdoors involve Nymphora teleporting to one of several unwardable locations near either base's shrine. While in core-mode Mid Wars, simply picking any team including a Hellbringer or Pollywog more or less ensures you a victory if they get any measure of farm (essentially, just refresher, but bulwark/geos makes it easier to pull off and nigh-impossible to defend).

Now, I know that there will be some people reading this thinking "lies and slander, Transvestor, you silly lying slanderer". I invite you to take the following steps on Hellbringer.

Start: Mana Battery + scarab + mana pot (don't need heals, life void at lv 2 will be all the heals you need).
1) Arcana (maybe with regular boots/ghosts beforehand, depending on what you're playing against and your own skill)
2) Ghost marchers (if you don't already have them)
3) Finish Resto Stone.

-By now you have more than enough to push down the enemy's first tower if you haven't already gotten it down.

4) Bulwark (you are now capable of backdooring most teams solo and getting their 2nd tower with a very high success rate)
5) Geo's Bane (can be swapped with Bulwark)(If the enemy team is beyond halfway into your side of the map, you can instantly kill their tower+shrine solo)

Buying a Puzzlebox in addition to the items above adds enough dps for Hellbringer to take out a shrine+tower if the enemy team is directly in the middle of the map.

Now, I know that this is not the way that the game was designed to be played, but it is the most effective way to play. Hellbringer is not the only hero with one of these "instant win" conditions (Berserker, Warbeast, Wildsoul, Bramble), which implies that something in the actual game mode is broken, ie: the glyph is gone.

If I were to suggest changes that would both prevent backdooring from being such a devastating strategy and still fufill the original goal of Midwars games playing out quickly, It would be to reintroduce the glyph, with an extra two seconds duration, but with double the cooldown. Without the glyph, the Mid Wars gametype will continue to be a villainous hive of treachery and debauchery.

Questions/comments/discussion GO



tl;dr: Mid Wars is broken, bring back the glyph.

[Gorb]

Approved for interest. I will myself reply to this when I have time (so, um, sometime in the next geological eon).

Please keep all comments about the viability of Mid Wars as a competitive mode/Mid Wars not needing balance attention/other such derogatory coments out of this thread, please.

[`11411181]

I can imagine that Glyph was removed to expedite actually being able to force the game to end without picking a hard carry.

[GregerMoek]

Tip against Hellbringers backdooring, buy Nullfire Blade.

Otherwise I have to agree, any type of backdoor hero wins games in midwars. I have been playing mostly Wildsoul in Midwars and as soon as bear gets Ghost Marchers and some levels you'll start tearing up towers left and right. To top this off I often get a PK to teleport into the enemy base and crush the rax (Creeps are easy to deal with in midwars and it's mostly for the annoyance factor, because no matter how bad-mannered you play in Midwars it can't be reported!).

This is why I prefer midwars on the original map or Watchtower, even if backdooring can be just as abused there as in new midwars there is some protection from it.

Thing is though that Backdooring has been seen as "bad manners", "unfun" and "unfair play" ever since DotA back in 2006, now it's the most effective way to win a "fun-mode map".

[MikeTAR]

Despite this game-mode being labelled “casual and fun etc” it has proven to be a very popular game-mode for all MMR rated player 1300-2000 mmr. Some Pubs are plaing this game mode religiously and are picking certain heroes that synergize well together which isn’t a bad thing as it heavily encourages team-play. For their sake this game-mode should not be neglected from Balance as these players should be able to enjoy this game-mode.

I’d have to agree with OP, the removal of Glyph has almost forced the Public Player Base to play more defensively and turtle with fear of 5 man pushing as there is a high chance that one other hero is running around to back door. Without means of Town Portal you could pretty much be screwed out of a victory you have spent 20 or so minutes working hard for..

While the removal of Glyph may have encouraged this play-style, I don’t think re-adding it solves the issue completely.

I know this isn’t the place for suggestions but please realise I’m not suggesting this is the best way to solve the issue, I just think there could be a better way to cater to this then simply implementing the Glyph of Fortification again.

To resolve the Mid-Wars back-dooring dilemma it could be as simple as implementing the following.

Theory
Let’s say that both shrines are 100% immune
You have a some type of “gate” which spawns after you kill the second tower which spans across the width of the lane.
Once an allied creap wave passes through the enemy “base gate” their shrine is now attackable.
The only way to re-activate your own shrines immunity is to have your own creaps pass through your own gate. (which means you have to kill anything that passes through your gate in order for your creaps to pass back through)

Benefits
This forces a team to complete a genocide before pushing.
It forces defending teams to defend to the point of geocoding the other team or forcing them to pass back through your gate back to there well.
Enemy heroes can no longer back-door if the other team is pushing as the shrine is only active if your allied creaps pass through the enemy gate

^OFC there are obvious flaws with this but this example was to simply say, there are better more effective solutions then just re-adding glyph.

In conclusion, yes I think there is an issue with back-dooring in mid-wars, but I don’t think re-adding Glyph would only prevent a backdoor until it’s on Cooldown again.

[Hubaris]

Honestly, its to stop the game from turning into a 45 minute boring farm fest. The game is generally not enjoyable after a certain point and you may just want to play another game. These strategies are also counterable with items such as Post Haste and Disables. As a player who plays Portal Key Grave with Resto and Daemonic, I've failed numerous times in BDing, despite all the pushing power. One teleport easily changes the tide of the fight, because you are built to destroy buildings whereas your opponent may be built to obliterate gadgets very quickly.

Delaying the game with Glyph isn't fun for the most part. I wouldn't mind Glyph if it wasn't just used to stall the game out another 6 minutes when both teams are running around fully equipped and just trading blows.

[`blackbird`]

Glyph last for what, 5 seconds? And then a 5 minute cooldown?

I don't get how it ruined the fast paced game mode of mid wars in any way. It can force the other team to commit and then lose a big teamfight, turning the game around or prevent a backdoor, the two things that are most game changing in midwars..

[Hubaris]

Yeah but those 5 seconds were able to stop the Tablet of Power, which was made to end the game; which respawns at a much slower rate than Glyph's CD.

[Elman1]

Tip against Hellbringers backdooring, buy Nullfire Blade.

I thought this didn't work anymore.

As for Midwars, I think the obvious solution would be to increase respawn timers a little. They don't need to be too long, just long enough that winning a late-game battle actually means something and BDing stops being the only way to win (Unless there's some hardcore snowballing going on).

Making the raxes more useful would be nice too, right now they're usually not worth the effort of destroying them. And the tablet of power could be buffed a little too: its great but it doesn't mean much when your enemies instantly respawn anyway. I'd rather have a Kongor token.

[`Mystogan`]

I think the obvious solution would be to increase respawn timers a little.

Did you mean decrease? because i dont think increasing the timers will do anything, I mean an extra second maybe, but the idea of midwars is so that you can be up and ready to fight again in mere seconds. Original midwars would have like a solid 3 minute battle going on with the team continuously respawning at their well. making backdooring, or taking the shrine quite difficult.

Having respawn times any longer would defeat the purpose. I would say the timers are fine at the moment, as once people get beefy a genocide having people down for 6 seconds is long enough to push a tower and even take the shrine.

I realise that me and OP are from the same clan so i may be bias, but i think the extended glyph and longer cooldown would be more effective against backdoor giving you more time to respond if someone trys it.

[`11411181]

6 seconds is not anywhere near long enough to take out a shrine unless you clean sweep them without loss in a relatively short timeframe (less than 10sec) right next to the shrine.

[Dominare]

I can imagine that Glyph was removed to expedite actually being able to force the game to end without picking a hard carry.

Exactly. Players respawn so fast in this mode that a Glyph could completely negate any push from a won teamfight, meaning a team basically has to beat you convincingly twice within the fort cooldown to actually get anything done. That's not a good idea.

[frogbound]

I personally like Mid Wars, but I stated it a few times already. I still hate getting stomped big time.
The Pub Mid Wars, where there's a 60 minute clashfest was the best thing ever and sometimes people still join the games I host and we have fun.
Why was it fun? Because people could come back after just trying to get a few kills and can even it up. The Mid Wars right now is a 20 minute Slaughterhouse then they finally get annoyed by squashing ur heads in and finally go for the shrine to release you.

"You could just cc" some might say, but it still doesn't record anykind of stats, it's still CM and you can just kill stuff and come back although u might end up giving even more gold to the enemy. BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I PLAYED MID WARS AT FIRST!
But now u can't defend anymore at a certain point, because there is only 2 towers u need to kill and people can just ignore the raxes.
I for myself would love to see the shrine immune untill all towers and the raxes are dead.

[Katieeee]

I don't mind it. I like seeing Puzzlebox used more often, and it's nice to not have Mid Wars just be a carry fest. We sneaky people like to have power too. x)

[``fagatron]

A few things.

1. HB/Malphas has very low deeps, certainly nowhere near Polly/wards. Since S2 games sucks and there is no up-to-date HON information repository, I cannot tell you for certain what either of their deeps are, but I know that the former is much lower than the latter, and is much more easily dealt w/ (Malphas is magic susceptible and has less net EHP than p-wards). I hypothesize that Heebee is no real BD threat.

2. Necronomicon minis do not work with refresher in DotA - they are hardcoded to be destroyed upon respawn from the same book. I do not know if they function the same way in HoN, but if so then they are likely not a wise consideration for a refreshing BD build.

3. Glyph removal makes games faster. This is a good thing. Not that your suggestions are to be ignored - backdooring is an unsuitably strong tactic in emdubs and should be considered.

4. Whatever emdubs is "meant to be" is completely irrelevant. All games are competitive by definition, and none are "more" or "less" competitive than others - only "more" or "less" balanced. Emdubs is objectively a better game than Forests anyway. I am 100% for in-depth consideration of emdubs balance.

[`11411181]

"Emdubs is objectively a better game than Forests anyway."

I can't wait to hear why.

[WillSage]

[QUOTE=``fagatron;15276892]A few things.

" 1. HB/Malphas has very low deeps

2. w/ (Malphas is magic susceptible and has less net EHP than p-wards). I hypothesize that Heebee is no real BD threat. "


Just to throw some actual info out there.

In optimal conditions next to shrine hellbringer can kill the shrine in just over 10 seconds. (10.4) Items used: Refresher, Steam boots, Demonic, Puzzlebox lvl 2, Geos, Abysall Skull. these items are nearly always easily attainable in midwars.

As you can see this is clearly enough "deeps" to put HB as a real BD threat. In terms of EHP: Each malphas has 1500 hp and HB has 2200 with these items.

I'm sure polly wards are another valid example.

For reference: From the middle of the river in the middle of the lane it takes a forsaken with ghost marchers and geos 9.8 seconds to get within range of the hellbringer entourage. (Assuming ghosts are off cd and are used on the run and no blocking by creeps or heroes occurs)

[Ryuusan]

I understand why they took glyph out, but I often feel a little cheated by how easy it is to take down shrine.

Perhaps compromise? Reinstate glyph, but instead of super armor/invulnerability, make it give a modest armor bonus instead. Or have it taper from +99999. This will make it slightly harder/longer to kill, but not prolong the inevitable.

[Synchronize]

buy wards. also after your enemy slays transmutenstein, expect an incoming backdoor.

[PzKw]

Tested hb bd, workable, but clear that bd is the problem not hb. Maliken almost did it to us in a similar time frame in the same game.

[Gumbie]

I have taken down a tree/shrine in 5 seconds as Berserker. Glyph IS the difference because by the time the tree/shrine is vulnerable again, your team can have all ported back to defend. It is ridiculous that Glyph was removed and has resulted in so many unsatisfying games... Midwars is a casual game-mode, but that doesn't mean it should be ruined by backdoor-orientated heroes/teams.

/Signed

[Transvestor]

Just in reply to a couple of comments, puzzlebox is refreshable but you cannot have two sets of minions out at once, however, they add an incredible amount of damage and are also there for breaking potential Nullstones that the enemy may buy. Nullfire does not kill Malphas. Posthaste is an ineffective counter to backdooring and puts heroes behind in farm due to not having a damage bonus, essentially throwing the game on most heroes. Hellbringer with medium farm can kill a shrine in 7 secs flat and 5 seconds with optimal farm.

Honestly, if the glyph was brought back with double the cooldown, it would solve this issue as it would not be spammable enough to actually slow down the game to any large degree.

Also, HB is not the optimal hero to backdoor with, I know a certain person who likes to kill shrines in 5 seconds flat on Berserker with minimal farm. Pollywog is just as silly as the wards are splash immune.

EDIT: It is a massive coincidence that Gumbie posted about his Berserker plays just above me. This was not planned, but is nonetheless, hilarious.

[`blackbird`]

Yeah but those 5 seconds were able to stop the Tablet of Power, which was made to end the game; which respawns at a much slower rate than Glyph's CD.

tablet lasted for 30 seconds of dd, 60 of invis, 30 of haste, and 60 of illusions
glyph is 5 seconds

how is that a counter in any way?


Exactly. Players respawn so fast in this mode that a Glyph could completely negate any push from a won teamfight, meaning a team basically has to beat you convincingly twice within the fort cooldown to actually get anything done. That's not a good idea.

that's only possible in a drawn out teamfight in front of your own shrine. Mid-late game, provided your team has anywhere between 1-2 carries, if you win a teamfight mid, you can easily steamroll down mid, ignoring creeps and all focus the shrine. ignore whatever heros are still alive unless it's a carry and such and you can kill the shrine with focus fire from 4-5 heros easily in 5-10 seconds, giving 5 seconds to run down. Minimum 3-5 seconds for the heros who just spawned to run to the shrine and you easily have enough time.



It's a 5 seconds invincibility, wouldn't change anything from happening. If a team was steamrolling they'd still kill whatever is being protected, it really was useful for preventing bd or at least stalling for you to realize what was going on and react.

[Dominare]

I have taken down a tree/shrine in 5 seconds as Berserker.

Okay? A tp takes 3 seconds to activate and should start as soon as you appear out of the fog, well before you actually start hitting anything. If you're killing shrines this way and the other team isn't stopping you, that's their fault.

[Hubaris]

5 Seconds on the tablet is more than enough time to expose a Shrunken and then lock the hero down with Purge (for tablet), Sheep, Storm and Hellflower. Just build accordingly, I know it sucks not having 6 Genjuros but sometimes you have to adjust to your situation. 5 Seconds is a lot of time.

[Gorb]

Remember to not post an unconstructive whine about how Hero X can do something in Y seconds. It's unsubstantiated subjective evidence that has no bearing on an objective analysis.

[frogbound]

No glyph would be okay, if there are no respawn times.
Mid Wars was supposed to have no respawn times. It takes u freakin 20 seconds to respawn later in the game.
I hate those short mid wars games... they need to be hours long.

[Oflgn]

I totally agree with the post, Mid Wars games now tend to last much longer now than before - since now at late game we must camp the base due to backdoor menace.

Suggestions: what about if glyph only worked on the main building, not towers? The extra two seconds duration with increased cooldown is not a bad idea.

[`fatCat]

No glyph would be okay, if there are no respawn times.
Mid Wars was supposed to have no respawn times. It takes u freakin 20 seconds to respawn later in the game.
I hate those short mid wars games... they need to be hours long.

Last i checked it was 15 seconds at max level. Correct me if im wrong though

[iNsania]

I'm not someone who spends a whole lot of time playing midwars but my personal experience is that the games are usually the most fun between levels 11-16 because you have just about the right amount of items. When it gets beyond that it just gets boring imo, you're basically getting one shot or you die if you get stunned unless you're playing a super tanky hero that wont die to anything. If I understod OP correctly he wanted glyph to prevent backdooring and I can see this being a solution to the problem but I think the main issue lies with trying to make the games not reach a point where backdooring is a factor.

I think you should make levels 1-5 go much faster (require less experience to level up) whilst you make 6-16 the pace they are atm, and then from 16 onwards just make gold gain lower, kind of like "high upkeep" in WC3. This way you would have a longer "teamfight phase" where it really comes down to how you use ur skills and it requires some sort of teamwork to win teamfights and make midwars more enjoyable, atleast imo.

Sorry for derailing but, I think this would be a better solution to the problem.

[Beroya]

I wouldn't mind seeing an active skill in place of Fortification that instantly teleports the activating player to their shrine and granting some form of buff to that player. It could be on a 3 or 5 minute cooldown, and effectively allows a team to teleport anywhere between 1 and 5 to defend the moment they see it get attacked.

It'd provide more defensive power than a single glyph since it could be activated by each player on the team, all on separate cooldowns. That would probably discourage backdooring a little.

[reyuron]

Backdooring IS a real issue in midwars.
There's no reliable way to stop this unless you play as a team.
Assuming everyone who plays mid to be buying wards is a big mistake, I'm usually warding myself on heroes that really have no place buying them to start with (armadon buying wards in midwars? Come on..)

Just yesterday I lost a game that we were winning all game long, to lose to a backdooring nomad.

Are we promoting a gamemode that's easy to get into, easy to get the hang off, and in all manners made to be quicker and more "for fun", but in the same breath, openly tolerating "game-breaking" things such as backdooring?

If I play for 50 minutes, and we've had a consistent 5-15 kill lead on the enemies going back & forth, pushing towers slowly, then I don't want to see it end because we didn't have wards and post haste ready just to possibly stop a carry using shrunken head to backdoor and "win" the game.

That's like forcing everyone in the world to pay a meteor insurance 'cause "it might happen and you have to be prepared for everything"
I know this is stretching it a bit, but in it's basics, it's the same reasoning.

It makes no sense at all to tolerate this.

[Mrhon2]

Remember to not post an unconstructive whine about how Hero X can do something in Y seconds. It's unsubstantiated subjective evidence that has no bearing on an objective analysis.

Whine? That's not very respectful.

[Drezbie]

I think the glyph should be reintroduced in MidWars because bd is really annoying. I think there should be another bd protection in MidWars.

[Titration]

I don't think that the glyph would solve the problem (it would just make some people less annoyed with back-dooring).

**My solution to the back-dooring problem**
Back-dooring, as I understand it, is defined as attacking the enemy towers/structures without your team's creeps present, with it being called back-dooring because you are going behind the creep-conflict area to attack the structures (once the creeps are in their actual base-area, all of buildings in said base are up for attacking). Therefore, instead of putting the glyph there, wouldn't it make sense to add a feature to the game that detects when enemy creeps are within a certain distance of a team's structures and disallows auto-attacking said structures when there aren't enemy creeps within a certain range (whatever the range of the ballista/siege units are)? Sure, someone could go to lengths to somehow pull a creep with them to the tower and attack it then, but that's not back-dooring, and not bad-mannered. (Once creeps are in the shrine-area, all in-base structures become vulnerable, save the indestructible towers and such).

As for which creeps would be required to make structures vulnerable for auto-attacking, it would be limited to the actual base-spawned creeps (creeps controlled by Ophelia or possessed by Parasite would not count as base-spawned). If this is physically possible to implement into Mid-Wars, I think it would highly benefit the game-style by eliminating backdooring.

The reason why I believe that only auto-attacking the structures should be disallowed by the absence of creeps is that abilities such as Flint's Explosive Flare, which damage structures, should still be able to damage the buildings during a team-fight near a tower while creeps are out of range. Though, because of abilities such as Torturer's, which can damage buildings (to backdoor) quickly without auto-attacking, maybe, instead of disallowing auto-attacking towers, all physical damage should be disallowed until enemy creeps are present.

This would take more programming/time to implement, but, for the sake and goal of stopping back-dooring, I think that it would make most everyone happier with mid-wars.

Thoughts? ("This is too much work for a good solution" isn't a thought worth voicing, as easy "solutions" are rarely ever solutions)

Edit: Between my account from closed beta and this account, I've played around 1300 nostats matches, with 1100 or so being midwars (old-school and on the current map). The glyph really doesn't change much in my experience.

[JewishSlut]

I'm not someone who spends a whole lot of time playing midwars but my personal experience is that the games are usually the most fun between levels 11-16 because you have just about the right amount of items. When it gets beyond that it just gets boring imo, you're basically getting one shot or you die if you get stunned unless you're playing a super tanky hero that wont die to anything. If I understod OP correctly he wanted glyph to prevent backdooring and I can see this being a solution to the problem but I think the main issue lies with trying to make the games not reach a point where backdooring is a factor.

I think you should make levels 1-5 go much faster (require less experience to level up) whilst you make 6-16 the pace they are atm, and then from 16 onwards just make gold gain lower, kind of like "high upkeep" in WC3. This way you would have a longer "teamfight phase" where it really comes down to how you use ur skills and it requires some sort of teamwork to win teamfights and make midwars more enjoyable, atleast imo.

Sorry for derailing but, I think this would be a better solution to the problem.

Yeah. I agree with this.

There is a problem with backdooring in Mid Wars but at the same time, that's the only way some games will ever progress. The "backdooring" stage in some mid wars games (doesn't happen to all) just is nightmarish for everyone.

[Seah0rse]

I'm not someone who spends a whole lot of time playing midwars but my personal experience is that the games are usually the most fun between levels 11-16 because you have just about the right amount of items. When it gets beyond that it just gets boring imo, you're basically getting one shot or you die if you get stunned unless you're playing a super tanky hero that wont die to anything. If I understod OP correctly he wanted glyph to prevent backdooring and I can see this being a solution to the problem but I think the main issue lies with trying to make the games not reach a point where backdooring is a factor.

I think you should make levels 1-5 go much faster (require less experience to level up) whilst you make 6-16 the pace they are atm, and then from 16 onwards just make gold gain lower, kind of like "high upkeep" in WC3. This way you would have a longer "teamfight phase" where it really comes down to how you use ur skills and it requires some sort of teamwork to win teamfights and make midwars more enjoyable, atleast imo.

Sorry for derailing but, I think this would be a better solution to the problem.

This is probably more along the lines of a solution than most anything else. But I do have a reservation:

There are two reasonable ways we can make levels 1-5 "faster:" we can either increase the passive exp. gain during those levels or we can lower the exp. threshold needed to level up to those levels. The former, I feel, would have little to no bearing on the game and can be largely ignored because it wouldn't promote a more active playstyle (which is necessary if gold gain is the focal point of this change) and would essentially 'translate' the game a few minutes later rather than have any meaningful change.

That leaves us with the second method: lowering the amount of exp. needed to reach X number of levels. This would actually have an impact on how people would be forced to play the game: more active early. Does this not, however, pose a situation in which extremely powerful early-game teams could craft themselves such a tremendous advantage that it becomes insurmountable?

Snowballing is already very easy in midwars. A few early kills puts one team at a considerable advantage over the other and I feel that if we lowered the exp. threshold necessary to hit the early levels it would result in a lead that it would be impossible to come back from. A bloodlust and two quick exchanges would easily put one team at level five and the others at level two. From there it should be relatively academic about keeping them down.

To come back into a game from a deficit like that, it's not uncommon to need to abuse the closeness-to-well of the shrine and it becomes more difficult to break in. Hence we return to the dance of the backdoor.

I agree with the idea in theory but I wonder if this might bring in a similar problem for vastly different reasons?

[TinyHippo]

I think that there should be a glyph with diminishing returns (as if a 5 minute cooldown wasn't enough to ensure that the second push wins anyway).

[Mrhon2]

What if we spawned creeps every 10 seconds instead of every minute? More creeps means more experience, and you never have to backdoor. It's foolproof.

[Hubaris]

Creeps spawn every 30 seconds, not every minute.

[LunarAshes]

As someone who plays a lot of Midwars, I can definitely agree to not bringing back Glyph. It makes the game too long, and when everyone is capped and just swinging back and forth between bases, it's no fun. However, backdooring is most definitely an issue, and honestly, I would think the solution is simple; just implement the original DotA backdoor protection. If they managed to pull it off in the Warcraft 3 engine, I am SURE S2 will have no problems implementing it here. That's all we really need. The pace of midwars at the moment is just fine and doesn't really need any more changes, imo. Just make your shrine unkillable when you have creeps outside your base.

[moshonkel]

I'm not someone who spends a whole lot of time playing midwars but my personal experience is that the games are usually the most fun between levels 11-16 because you have just about the right amount of items. When it gets beyond that it just gets boring imo, you're basically getting one shot or you die if you get stunned unless you're playing a super tanky hero that wont die to anything. If I understod OP correctly he wanted glyph to prevent backdooring and I can see this being a solution to the problem but I think the main issue lies with trying to make the games not reach a point where backdooring is a factor.

I think you should make levels 1-5 go much faster (require less experience to level up) whilst you make 6-16 the pace they are atm, and then from 16 onwards just make gold gain lower, kind of like "high upkeep" in WC3. This way you would have a longer "teamfight phase" where it really comes down to how you use ur skills and it requires some sort of teamwork to win teamfights and make midwars more enjoyable, atleast imo.

Sorry for derailing but, I think this would be a better solution to the problem.


QFT

Annother possibility would be some kind of incentive to hold on the map. For example an area, which when you hold it with 1 hero your creepspawn gets reduced by 1 per Wave.

With the xp change Backdooring/Glyphs wont be a problem anymore.

[opamp]

"You could just cc" some might say, but it still doesn't record anykind of stats, it's still CM and you can just kill stuff and come back although u might end up giving even more gold to the enemy.

I believe Mid Wars does record stats. And you are paired accordingly. I'm not sure the format, it might even just be games played. But I'm always pink when I play. Only after losing a few games in a row will I not be pink. This is even more true when I queue with lower skilled players who I know lose many more mid wars games than I do.

[GregerMoek]

QFT

Annother possibility would be some kind of incentive to hold on the map. For example an area, which when you hold it with 1 hero your creepspawn gets reduced by 1 per Wave.

With the xp change Backdooring/Glyphs wont be a problem anymore.

Funny how QFT has changed meaning over the years.

[Ekamo]

Mid Wars balance is pro.

Disregarding that, this thread doesn't have a lot more to bring forward.

Thread closed.