Hellbourne/Legion Discrepancies

[foxmindedguy]

We have talked time and time again about how Kongor pit's location, along with some other factors, make being on the Hellbourne side more favorable than Legion. However, there are other subtle aspects of the map I would like to bring to the public's attention for further debate. These discoveries are not new, by any means, and I personally have reported them in the bug section (in the not so recent past); but according to ElementUser such is a discussion for the balance forum.

Anyway, without further ado, I will introduce three additional issues that are subtly favoring the Hellbourne side.

Exhibit 1: Hellbourne Middle Tower sees more than the Legion side
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7044/differentvisionontowers.png
As you can see from the picture, the first middle tower of Hellbourne provides more vision than the legion side. While this is not too big of a deal, the main problem here is that gank attempts from Legion, which are initiated from going into the water through are sighted if the right-most sided ramp is not taken.

Exhibit 2: Hellbourne middle can shop at Observatory with only chopping down one tree
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/927/canshop.png
As you can see here, I have only used one runes of blight to gain access to the observatory on the hellbourne side. This, I believe, is a huge advantage (which I presume was not known to many before reading this :D). No longer will mid want the courier for mana and hp pots.

Exhibit 3: Inconvenience and danger to ward secondary top tower for the Legion side
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/247/tward.png
As you can see here, Flint can not provide sight to his team about the enemies's whereabouts from the safety behind his tower. He has to go all the way around to put a ward on Nomad's head (where the enemy could be hiding). This inconvenience and risk is not consistent with the Hellbourne side, they can simply ward from behind their secondary towers on both top and bottom alleviated structures.

Now that I have briefly brought the three additional subtle (or less subtle) advantages that Hellbourne has over the Legion side. I think we should start a discussion on whether these factors are big enough for us to advocate a map readjustment. Of course when arguing for or against such changes, we should look at the entire map and not just these three areas. Since the entire map is not symmetrical, there are other instances of the map where legion has the upper-hand over hellborne.

Some of which are summarized by the following post by Tay_z0nday:

Any Range heroes can TRIPLE stack In legion jungle which Give a huge advantage when supporting an hard carry that will clean it up... ALSO! Let's not forget that the weak camp is Near the mid lane for Legion Which mean you can clean the wave as fast as you can and go get the bonus gold from the creeps..

So please take the aforementioned factors also in consideration, along with any other ones (not mentioned here), before giving your verdict on this matter. What say you all? :D

[Ekamo]

Since they are definitely not bugs, and do have some balance impact, so I think they at least warrant discussion. Remember though that neither of these are in a vacuum, they are to be considered in conjunction with each other and with other map discrepancies.

Only post if you have something to actually contribute with. "No, it is fine as it is, no change needed" or "Yes, plz change" does not count as contributions. Sub-forum rules (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?393760-Balance-Forum-Rules) apply as always.

Approved.

[girard`]

I feel that the middle of the two would cause the biggest balance issue. With the possibility of adding more to the Observatories (I've seen multiple posts/threads about this), this is increasingly dangerous as the mid-hellbourne player(s) will have a huge advantage with regen here. Hellbourne doesn't have to leave lane to get a health pot while Legion has to go rather close to top tier-1 to get a health pot. I'm not sure how to address this, but it's a little off to me.

I do agree with the third to some extent, however.

[`blackbird`]

Tree cutting for observatory is really only a pub strat where no one has upped the courier. Otherwise, it's much more beneficial to still stay in exp range while using a flying courier to bring you up a pot.

I agree on the bot left legion ward, it should be able to be placed defensively or at least from tower side.

About HB seeing more, it doesn't really do much since ganks from bot are rare since they'd have to run through the tower to get to you making it a highly risky gank.

[Doomhammar]

The sight should not be an issue if runespots are warded (high traffic area). But the advantage of observatory and Kongor pit make hellbourne slightly better. Observatory can be an easy fix but otherwise there is not too much stuff you can do about the whole Hellbourne vs Legion balance without making map more symmetric(requiring large redesigning)

[Ahimtar]

It is hard to balance two different things. But it definitely should be different, having a symetric map would be boring. But i agree with those changes.

Is there anything like a list of games from tournaments, showing which teams were playing which sides? Just to check, if some side didnt win the vast majority of games.

And i feel like the jungle should be mentioned. The legion trees make pulling quite harder, while the creeps can be triplestacked there. And legion is also able to pull creeps on long lane. That makes quite a difference.

[SmurfinBird]

Tree cutting for observatory is really only a pub strat where no one has upped the courier. Otherwise, it's much more beneficial to still stay in exp range while using a flying courier to bring you up a pot.

I agree on the bot left legion ward, it should be able to be placed defensively or at least from tower side.

About HB seeing more, it doesn't really do much since ganks from bot are rare since they'd have to run through the tower to get to you making it a highly risky gank.

I don't believe this is a "pub" strategy only. If the courier is going to another lane and you have pushed your wave (with, say, pollywog or deflier) and it's on the odd number of minutes, why not grab a pot?

[`blackbird`]

I don't believe this is a "pub" strategy only. If the courier is going to another lane and you have pushed your wave (with, say, pollywog or deflier) and it's on the odd number of minutes, why not grab a pot?

The only time you'd push the lane is if you're getting rune control. Otherwise you'd only be last hitting to keep it as static as possible. Even if it's pushed, by the time you have bottle you're probably out of trees and with the two heros you mentioned, they'd have no way to cut the tree, unless you specificially saved one for after 5 minutes just to cut that tree or something.

Yes, it is an advantage, but I've rarely seen anyone use this in any of the replays I've watched. As mid in a competitive game you should always have priority on courier. Sidelanes should be able to grab a lot of the stuff they need from the side shop too.

[Reldnahc]

You can't have a fair discussion when you load your premise like you have. Please be sure to list the beneficial aspects of the Legion side in order to have an adequate discussion on the matter.

[SmurfinBird]

The only time you'd push the lane is if you're getting rune control. Otherwise you'd only be last hitting to keep it as static as possible. Even if it's pushed, by the time you have bottle you're probably out of trees and with the two heros you mentioned, they'd have no way to cut the tree, unless you specificially saved one for after 5 minutes just to cut that tree or something.

Yes, it is an advantage, but I've rarely seen anyone use this in any of the replays I've watched. As mid in a competitive game you should always have priority on courier. Sidelanes should be able to grab a lot of the stuff they need from the side shop too.

I would argue there are sufficient reasons for pushing without the rune; with heroes such as Pyromancer you may be matched up a hero that would typically outlane you in a solo situation while having a harder time last hitting under a tower (Prophet solo mid vs Pyromancer as an example). You wouldn't want to keep creeps in the center with your sub-par attack animation and instead would prefer to hit the creeps to within nuke range and then Pheonix Wave the creep wave, then head back and eat the tree with runes of blight for a little health boost from Prophet's harass, and grab a manapot so that you can maintain the push each wave till your bottle arrives and you get runes.

I don't believe it's negligible enough having access to this outpost with such ease, and Deadwood would be another example as to someone that would use similar tactics if vs a hero that outlanes him, he can chop trees too :)

[GregerMoek]

Tree cutting for observatory is really only a pub strat where no one has upped the courier. Otherwise, it's much more beneficial to still stay in exp range while using a flying courier to bring you up a pot.

I agree on the bot left legion ward, it should be able to be placed defensively or at least from tower side.

About HB seeing more, it doesn't really do much since ganks from bot are rare since they'd have to run through the tower to get to you making it a highly risky gank.

-Implying that people always play solo mid in competitive games. (Supports can get easy regen for their farmers in mid)
-Implying that there is one courier always dedicated to the mid player in every competitive game.
-Implying that heroes can't be out-harrassed in competitive games because they are just 'that pro' and needing regen right away.
-Implying that waiting for courier out of harrass range is quicker than simply walking to the observatory and get a health pot.


I have seen it make a difference in many competitive games (of course not a true difference between a win and loss, but a difference in lane dynamics and power).
Moreover, even if it is just a "pub strat" it is still not balanced, meaning that it is still an issue. Fixing it wouldn't (according to you) hurt Competitive games so what's the problem in changing it?

[Example27]

First not everything has to be looked at with "comp scene does/doesn't use it".

The sight from the tower issue is not that big of an issue in my opinion.

The access to the Observatory is really not fair for the Legion side. One might argue that you can easily go and access it (doesn't have to be Runes of Blight) even as a Legion mid player for example when you go and pick up the bot rune but we all know that's highly unlikely and it's borderline impractical.

As for the Nomad head, there is a bridge that's broken. Legion could really fix a simple wooden bridge. Hellbourne can ward both of the defensive ward spots with relative ease, Legion should have that as well seeing as it's not a major map change.

[`11411181]

First not everything has to be looked at with "comp scene does/doesn't use it".

Actually, yes it does. (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?100136-Why-Balancing-for-High-Level-Players-is-OK)

[foxmindedguy]

First not everything has to be looked at with "comp scene does/doesn't use it".


Actually, yes it does. (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?100136-Why-Balancing-for-High-Level-Players-is-OK)

It would be true under the impractical assumption that the competitive scene has perfect wisdom of the game and does not stick to heroes/strategies just because of their personal likes and dislikes. They are fully comfortable with and aware of every possible strategy/team composition/exploit that is out there in the game of HON. Unfortunately, such preposterous surmises do not hold true. Unpopular (but viable) heroes do not see play for large periods of time until some pro player picks him up and then all of the sudden that hero emerges into the comp scene, picked every game or banned (think Moraxus). Even though people *****ed about how he needed buffs because comp never used it, it was us some in the balance forum that said he is simply not flavor of the month.

However, if you believe such assumptions to hold true then please be my guest and rally for half the hero pool to get buffed or reworked (as they are not used by the competitive scene).

[herro`kiti]

It would be true under the impractical assumption that the competitive scene has perfect wisdom of the game and does not stick to heroes/strategies just because of their personal likes and dislikes. They are fully comfortable with and aware of every possible strategy/team composition/exploit that is out there in the game of HON. Unfortunately, such preposterous surmises do not hold true. Unpopular (but viable) heroes do not see play for large periods of time until some pro player picks him up and then all of the sudden that hero emerges into the comp scene, picked every game or banned (think Moraxus). Even though people *****ed about how he needed buffs because comp never used it, it was us some in the balance forum that said he is simply not flavor of the month.

However, if you believe such assumptions to hold true then please be my guest and rally for half the hero pool to get buffed or reworked (as they are not used by the competitive scene).

Well said. Literally impossible to argue with. Even if some people are going to try. :)

[GregerMoek]

Well, some have more experience than others in thinking a hero needs a massive buff when it actually needs nerfs.

[Doomhammar]

Unpopular (but viable) heroes do not see play for large periods of time until some pro player picks him up and then all of the sudden that hero emerges into the comp scene, picked every game or banned (think Moraxus). Even though people *****ed about how he needed buffs because comp never used it, it was us some in the balance forum that said he is simply not flavor of the month.

Wise thoughts.

Comp scene should only be observed in terms of hero performance. Competitive players seem to be the least creative people in terms of picks and somewhat items. It also reminds me of how the potential of TDL was not seen untill people in competitive scene started picking her, I knew her potential for a long time but TDL only got nerfs after comp scene started playing her. Competitive players should be encouraged to be more creative with their plays instead of going for overused heroes and tactics. Every hero has competitive potential but are not picked just because competitive players are just bunch of copycats.

[xAsILayDying]

Hellbourne creeps are quite easier to pull, in lower brackets it make difference.

[Tay_z0nday]

Hold it!
You wrote many things about why the hellbourne is op but seems to have omit that Legion also got unfair things,
Any Range heroes can TRIPLE stack In legion jungle which Give a huge advantage when supporting an hard carry that will clean it up...
ALSO! Let's not forget that the weak camp is Near the mid lane for Legion Which mean you can clean the wave as fast as you can and go get the bonus gold from the creeps..
Knowing that I doubt I want hellbourne To Lose their capacity to buy potion faster...


So I believe Both side are fair But only % will told us?
What if Legion side would have an higher winning rate than hellbourne?
Would you still want Hellboune to be nerf?

[foxmindedguy]

Hold it!
You wrote many things about why the hellbourne is op but seems to have omit that Legion also got unfair things,
Any Range heroes can TRIPLE stack In legion jungle which Give a huge advantage when supporting an hard carry that will clean it up...
ALSO! Let's not forget that the weak camp is Near the mid lane for Legion Which mean you can clean the wave as fast as you can and go get the bonus gold from the creeps..
Knowing that I doubt I want hellbourne To Lose their capacity to buy potion faster...




So I believe Both side are fair But only % will told us?
What if Legion side would have an higher winning rate than hellbourne?
Would you still want Hellboune to be nerf?


Yes, I am well aware of that and I thought this was common knowledge (and should be taken in account before anyone gives their verdict on the matter). However, you are right, I need to abide by the rules of an unbiased discussion and should at least mention them. I will edit my original post to incorporate them in the near future.


Thank you for pointing this out.


EDIT: I added your section onto the front-page. Cheers!

[Psionic]

Alright, I've really, REALLY wanted to talk some map lingo about FoC for a LONG time. Advantage is +, Deficit is -, Neutral is =, Here goes:

HELLBOURNE SIDE

+ Kongor positioning, accessibility and ward-ability
+ Ancients positioned for easier clearing (uphill)
+ Observatory placement
+ Positional advantage in Ancient / Observatory slope (Hellbourne side, important for Kongor)
+ Top lane pull fed by bottleneck entryway (makes defending simpler)
= Bottom lane rune is easily controlled by shortlane (and opposing side is easily controlled by Legion)
= Secondary (hard camp) pull in top lane
- Jungle camps harder to stack quickly
- Effective "Safe warding" places are limited and more wards are needed to provide a truly "safe" jungle
- Ancient / Observatory / 2nd tower spot very easily warded by Legion
- Ancients more exposed and further towards midboard
- Ancient vision cut off from within the area

LEGION SIDE

+ Safer Ancient spawn with better vision
+ Strong top rune ward positions with many options
+ Jungle can be safe-warded (for the most part) with only two correctly placed wards
+ Jungle is easier to stack quickly
+ Jungle has many directions to gank from.
+ The river that splits the map in twain cuts the bottom lane much higher, causing a larger area of uncertainty and danger for Hellbourne's short lane
(compare to Hellbourne's top lane)
= Secondary (Hard camp) pull in top lane
= The Legion side controls a larger area of the map, making both ganking by them and ganks upon them more available.
- Must fight Kongor with a vision and positional disadvantage
- Ancient positioning makes clearing them early a greater hardship
- Further extended position makes defending of early towers (slightly) harder
- Hill covered terrain near Legion ancients + Nomad's head is GREATLY disadvantageous to Legion should the Hellbourne take mid second tier tower.
(The main difference being the wide ledge that spans the entire area, giving an uphill advantage and being close to the legion base)

I would go over each of these in detail, but I think the majority of these are self-explanatory. Does either map have the upper hand in this case? I honestly think not. Just to compare some simple things:

-The Hellbourne ancient spawn, in terms of clearing, is easier and safer to do early. However, it lacks the same protection the legion side has due to the immense cliff and close lane support that the Kongor pit denies the Hellbourne.

-The mid-lane Observatory trick, albeit useful, is still a trade. EXP and gold for regen. Whether or not the trick is effective enough to warrant it being extremely useful is all dependent on what the Hellbourne player does to re-coup the extra EXP, and how he times it.

-The Legion ward on Nomad's head is trivial, honestly. A hero equipped with a PK simply needs to do the warding for you, by porting an inch further. And yes, By the time that ward spot becomes useful, if your team honestly doesn't have someone who can PK in and ward that spot safely, you should have already conceded. Annoying? Yes. OMFGHBIMBA? No. In all honesty, the ability to safe ward a jungle with two wards seems more effective than having that one spot open easily.

Each side has it's perks. Play out the advantages of each side and you will find, very easily, that the map is hard to call imbalanced.

[Antimodus]

Funny, to me it looks like HB jungle has much easier time ganking (providing that any anti-gank wards are killed first) because their jungler can stay hidden by FoW all the way. Whereas in Legion side they have better sight of what comes out of the jungle, and if you take the other way (around the trees and attack from behind) they have more time to react to it.

It occured to me that a lane like Mag+FA for instance is a lot stronger when you run it top as HB instead of bot as Legion. Same reason.

[Psionic]

Funny, to me it looks like HB jungle has much easier time ganking (providing that any anti-gank wards are killed first) because their jungler can stay hidden by FoW all the way. Whereas in Legion side they have better sight of what comes out of the jungle, and if you take the other way (around the trees and attack from behind) they have more time to react to it.

It occured to me that a lane like Mag+FA for instance is a lot stronger when you run it top as HB instead of bot as Legion. Same reason.
Although partially true, the only early "anti-gank ward" for the bottom lane as legion will always be covering the rune spot, one way or another. After that, all they need to do is kill it, wait a minute, and then gank. Failure to place the ward as awkwardly as so (trying to block the rune) will leave your team without a rune ward. That is, unless you don't block the pull camp, in which case, shame on you.

As for vision, this is made up simply because if you're deep enough in lane to have this "vision" you should be dead already unless it's a solo in bot for Legion and if you have the top area of "vision" you're out of XP range when played correctly. so... no. Legion has a SEVERE** advantage playing in the bottom lane vs. Hellbourne in the top lane, especially if the top lane (as Legion) can successfully pull the hard camp at :50 to gain lane positioning.

As for the reason MAG + FA works better as top lane Hellbourne, Magmus at levels 1-4 barely has a stun. So having the FoW at that point (by running around) is advantageous. Otherwise, a Behe / Hammer / anyrangedunithere would have no issue doing the exact same thing in legion lane.

That is, unless the hero of choice is back out of last hitting range, just trying to soak exp. In which case, moot point.

[Clytemnestra]

hellbourne has meatball
legion has only huts.

[SirVH]

So I believe Both side are fair But only % will told us?
What if Legion side would have an higher winning rate than hellbourne?

I'm 99% sure someone posted some numbers on this forum, ages ago, showing the winning ratio of hellbourne was much bigger than legion's.

[OkBroYouPro5]

While these are true facts if the map was completely symmetric the game would be boring. Also Legion has it's own advantages too. Like you can pull the other medium camp to regular pulling camp and is more suitable for stacking.

[GregerMoek]

Hellbourne jungle is easier to jungle farm in from lower levels as the medium and easy camps are more together. I guess this is somewhat balanced by the fact that Legion jungle is safer when you travel from hard to hard camp(and shorter) than it is in the Hellbourne jungle.

[Puuhis]

A couple of advantages that hellbourne also has what as far as I can recall haven't been mentioned before.
http://imageshack.us/a/img715/7494/legionp.gif

It's harder to force legion to stay in their base and farm all lanes because hellbourne has to rotate around the area marked with black whereas on the hellbourne side it's much easier. http://imageshack.us/a/img525/2703/hellbourne.gif


I got a very wild idea what is somewhat is an advanced version of the two Kongor spawn locations. What if you had to summon kongor? In both of the locations where kongor spawns(on legion and hellbourne side), there would be some kind of magical stone on what you'd have to channel charges to. The team who first completes the channel summons the Kongor on their side of the map. The channeling would work somewhat like in LoL's dominion. Could something like this ever work? However I haven't thought much how the charges, when the summoning stones spawn, how long the Kongor stays etc. would work yet. Obviously the idea is raw and needs a lot more thought into it but just throwing this out there.

I think that the small balance differences on the map should NOT be related to Kongor's position on the map because the Kongor's positions balance factor is just on another level.

[Ekamo]

I'll leave this thread open even though it's low activity here. It's a good place to discuss Legion vs. Hellbourne if nothing else.

[DonMorot]

I would like to point out another diversity. When blocking the enemy pull camp it is safest to do so when playing Legion. If you put a ward ontop of the highest cliff which also gives you vision of the rune you can see if they are defending the pull. Thus you get information if you can safely ward or not.
There is no such place on the Legion side when warding as the hellbourne.

[`Smidig]

If you look at the entire picture that is the HoN map you can see that both Legion and Hellbourne have advantages. Many of these advantages come from the fact that you can buy reg in the observatory.

And speaking of the Kongor Pit is on the HB side of the map, however when two teams are trying to get kong, but they know the other team is there still, Legion can farm the jungle. And HB can only farm ancients. But hellbourne can go up and buy pots if there are minor confrontations.
And also Legions shrine is alot further away from the fountain, and the Hellbournes fountain is right next to it.

I would say that most of the problems can be easily fixed by removing pots from the observatory and only have wards/counterwards there.

[SB7]

IMO there is no reason to not balance for ALL so long as those changes don't impact the competitive scene. Especially when it's a relatively easy fix.. like adding an extra clump of trees. Heck, take the extra clump of trees at Legion tower and move them to HB observatory.

IMO, we should focus on balancing relative areas. For example, mid:

I think the HB mid has a bit of an advantage. The reduced vision on Legion side is somewhat negated by the fact that you still have to come a longer way IMO around the trees vs ganking HB mid where you can hide in trees and come more straight down (less chance to avoid gank by moving back and to the side. Legion mid can also be ganked effectively from either side, you're asking for trouble if you try ganking HB mid coming from bottom ramp. Unlike legion side, tower dmg is unavoidable. It's also easier to juke as the HB mid. There are more avenues to run around in the clump of trees under HB mid tower, and at the top side you can cut 1 tree and escape out the back. Legion bottom clump there is not as many routes to juke, and the top side is a dead end as you run into the cliff. This observatory balance is just icing on the cake. There are a couple advantages, such as easier access to jungle / ez camp but I don't think this is nearly enough of a bonus as it can be hard to take advantage of in most cases - unlike the HB advantages that are innate to the common mid process.

Another example is IMO an advantage to be HB ez lane. I believe the HB has an advantage warding the jungle to block spawns and get vision IMO. HB can block legion pull and also gain vision of medium camp above it and that entire alley of movement (big adv vs weak early junglers or jungle gankers). Legion can not block the pull AND have vision of the other camp and alley. So legion is a lot less protected or needs more wards for same effect. I think this should be fixed by removing some of the extra trees at HB side or adding trees to legion side. I agree it is easier to pull the HB camp also. You can not only more easily pull it, but you can do it flawlessly without taking any dmg. It's more difficult to get ALL of the creeps pulled to legion camp AND take no dmg.
Legion has the advantage that they can pull on the long lane also.. I think this should be fixed so they can't, or allow the HB to be able to do it also.

I understand all of these various things may kind of balance out, but IMO in a game where we are moving far away from any randomness - we should not have our side (legion or hb) in any way effect our strategy or hero picks.

[Kaos1]

I believe the HB has an advantage warding the jungle to block spawns and get vision IMO. HB can block legion pull and also gain vision of medium camp above it and that entire alley of movement (big adv vs weak early junglers or jungle gankers). Legion can not block the pull AND have vision of the other camp and alley.

it is actually possible to block the pull and also give vision of the closest strong camp in the hellbourne jungle by warding right below the trees of the pull camp. this can be a huge advantage as you push the lane when you see the jungler go into the strong camp and gank him before he can react.

[Anakron]

Hm it seems to me the main question is, what is the intent on the difference between the sides. and following this, do you want to give different benefits to the two sides, giving each one unique advantages over the other?

1. both sides are decidedly different as an design choice:
in this case it is only natural that there are "unfair" differences, because they are needed to cancel out other benefits. for instance legion can double pull top lane, so to make it even, their ward spot on the left tower is not as easily placed (obiviously just an example, i am by no means saying this is even or anything). if we accept that this design scheme is true that talking about differences isnt exactly fair, because they are intended that way. in this case the only balancing action is to look at current numbers of hb over legion win % and whoever is on top gets revoked some advantages or the other team is buffed in some way until the difference in win% is very low. in a perfect world 50/50

2.both sides are not wanted to have unfair advantages but the map-changes would be to drastic:
well in this case just start working on every issue that comes up. legion cant ward bottom left tower? make the statue a bit loner so that it can be reached with standard ward. hb can shop from mid lane? put shop slightly more out, or replace the tree with a stone statue. and so on and so on. bit by bit with this scheme you can erase all the unfair advantages until the game is "fair". while trying to maintain the larger frame of the current map. some issues like kongor will be difficult to "fix" but noone ever said it was easy.

3.mixture of both:
well this seems to be the way it is currently. the best way in this case is trying to minimize the differences because it is easier to balance things in a low range with fewer variables than keeping a large bunch of them around. although i think deciding on either 1 oder 2 would be more beneficial in the long run.

[Miker]

Did anyone notice the differences between Hellbourne and Legion buildings behind mid racks?
Legion has a much bettere defence behind mid racks having 4 buildings and making creeps to have to split and attack side buildings

Meanwhile on Hellbourne side there are only 2 buildings behings that are wide spread, even the titanic could fit between them.
Was this intended? Cause the "penetrations" is more efficient in the hellbourne base.

[Gorb]

Old thread.

An interesting thread, and one that is always going to highlight the importance of balancing the game competitively for a single map (or at the very least, a limited amount of maps) simply because of how much map balance affects viable gameplay depending on team start position.

Archiving.