creep camps and pull spots!

[flawl3sS`]

Hello,

I've been playing legi for a long time and I realized that it is much easier for me to farm hellbourne side. At first didnt know why, but items, stats,level, everything is better. (this reflects to start of the match, first 10-15 min). And since I wanted to know why is that I was thinking a lot. Then I came to a conclusion it is because of "title".

You maybe didnt notice but order of creep camps is not the same and is very important, especially at start.
On hell side it goes like this : hard , easy , medium , medium , hard.
On legion side it goes like this : Hard , easy , hard , medium , medium.
(both looking from base to outer tower!)

You are probably wondering why is that important just like I did.
Well, imagine u play legi on legion side, you start with stacking easy creeps for insta level 2, then you have to walk to another camp but it is hard camp so u skip at and go to the other side of forest for medium. It's a long way for a walk without boots or any speed boost, in the mean time u are losing experience and money cause u waste time on nothing. And the most important thing at start is to get money and exp fast, right?

Now on hell side, you start with same stacked easy camp for insta level, BUT!!! , then you go for medium camp kill it (got money,didnt waste time, almost lvl 3), then you go stack another med camp and pull it on a lane and ur level 4. By that time u should be level above enemy laners and gank them. which means HUGE advantage at start.

My idea is that u should replace/switch creep camps so both sides have same order of creep camps. (that would make game more balanced and fair.)

another thing pull spots, the distance from pull spots to the tower are not the same and difficulty of pulling is not the same.
Hellbourne pull spot is much closer to the tower which means u can stay longer on lane leech exp until you go pull than legion cause you waste much less time on pull.
In addition, hell is imba easy to pull, legion is infact hard to pull cause u have a tree blocking path to the lane and creeps often lose sight so you practically dont even pull just waste time and exp.

my ideas are :

1. make distance of pull camps same for both sides so you need same amount of time to go from lane to pull spot and pull.
2. fix pull spots,by that I mean make them *vertical or diagonal for both not different. It would be better if it is diagonal for both cause it will be harder to pull. (more competitive) , *vertical = when u pull hell creeps they go straight up, legion dont
3. remove that tree that u have to chop or eat with runes every single time u want to pull creeps on legion side
4. in addition to the tree, remove fog problem for creeps there. It often happens that ur creeps lose sight of pulled stack cause of that tree and fog.

Sorry for long post and mistakes with English language, every idea and constructive feedback is welcome.
Start discussion. :)

[MrSnowJr]

I agree, but except with number 4. The fog really isnt a problem if you remove the tree. The tree is the problem. Once you get the neutrals to the edge and your creeps start running at them you are suppose to follow the neutrals so your legion creeps dont lose sight of them.

[_Amn]

yea u kinda realize this first time you jungle once on each side, since dota.
i play tempest and legio all the time and everything u say it's true

but i found out it's not only jungle, all map is distorted and unbalanced and maybe it's intentional, you know.

jungles are different and both have their own advantages
on legion's you can double pull two camps while on hellbourne's you can just walk a small distance from lane to get a hard camp stacked or to just pull it.
also hellbourne's has the easy camp at a safe spot with huge vision while legion's don't, their easy camp is at a dangerous small hole, if u get ganked there you are probably dead, maybe if u enter fog u may survive. this is bad but keep in mind you are very close to the mid lane, you are very close to potential action that brings you food.

there's more but u get the point

[StarWards]

if you counterward the pulling spot, you can triplestack with red boots as legio in the legion jungle, thats a big thing on legion side imo :)

[ShAdOw_LaNcE]

It is known that Hellbourne is the favored side of the map. I looked at side win rates once, and hellbourne is always higher.

It's not just creeps/pulls that need to be change, EVERYTHING needs to be changed to balance the map.

Also, something you're neglecting here is the safety of jungling on each side. All of the Hellbourne camps have open vision, and are located on the top of a ramp or flat ground (one of the mid-levels is at the base of two ramps, but they're on your side and the ramp that you're on top of is towards legion), they also generally have more than one way to escape. Look at the Legion, the low level is at the mercy of a uphill ramp RIGHT next to it that's super easy to be ganked on, the high level close to the base has no way to escape from and vision is tunneled such that you can't see people until they're already on top of you, the other high level is O.K. as it's got a wide open area, the mid level camp near rune spawn can be jumped from around the corner, and the other mid-level camp is ok safety wise, but harder to pull.

It's hugely imba. Try making a list of every time you win on the Hellbourne and Legion on a piece of paper, and after 100 games see what you find.

Also, as a side-note Kongor is CLEARLY on the Hellbourne side, making it much easier to do.

[ColonelGanja]

I prefer to be legion when playing legionnaire, if they don't ward the pull its instant win and if they do just gotta wait the 6 minutes until you can start killing 6 stacks. The only double stack I ever pull off on legionnaire happens the be the ones that will attack you at the same time.