Hellbourne Shrine vs Legion Tree distances

[Example27]

Ok, so I guess everyone noticed that Hellbourne's Shrine is far closer to their Fountain(Well) than is Legion's. I don't really see a reason for that, and if anyone could explain it I would be really grateful.

But I guess you haven't noticed that, probably as a consequence of the distance between the Fountain and the Shrine, the Shrine is farther away from the base towers then is the Tree on the Legion side. As shown in the images below.
http://s15.postimage.org/dh6u9wqtn/HBTower_Shrine.jpg
http://s15.postimage.org/nfrswe097/LGTower_Tree.jpg

Also, the side base towers are about 100 units farther away from Shrine then they are from Tree.

[Gorb]

Approved, I would like to see a concrete answer on the subject (if any).

If there is no concrete answer then one can presume it's a mechanical feature and one that should be debated elsewhere.

[flawl3sS`]

I was also wondering that, although didnt know if i should start a thread about it or not. Dont know how to explain that , it should be asked at s2 employees..

[man_guy]

Does this difference even get noticed when most games are conceded before ancient towers are hardly ever touched?

[Example27]

I found about this went trying to get out of the well with a Monkey King, and it's considerably harder on the Legion side than it is on the Hellbourne side.
I am not sure about Balance consequences but that's where it first popped to my mind to post it. Maybe it should go into cosmetics or something, if it turns out that there is no balance problems with it, because the Tree just looks silly compared to the Shrine.

[SmurfinBird]

There's a hut straight in the middle of the Legion base for no apparent reason as well, as opposed to buildings either side of this gap for Hellbourne. Worth mentioning; I would say this layout has very minor balance implications if any at all. More space for AoE spells on the Hellbourne base? Meatballs are OP too.

[Rkey]

There is no reason for it to be like this, fix in next patch imo.

[Hubaris]

I feel the bigger problem is that fact that Legion has 6 more buildings in its base than Hellbourne, giving Hellbourne 600 more potential gold while Legion gets a few more seconds of reprieve.

OT: 100 units is hardly a large difference, although it would be nice to see some consistency between the bases.

[Reldnahc]

I feel the bigger problem is that fact that Legion has 6 more buildings in its base than Hellbourne, giving Hellbourne 600 more potential gold while Legion gets a few more seconds of reprieve.

OT: 100 units is hardly a large difference, although it would be nice to see some consistency between the bases.
Those extra buildings are a plus. They delay HB creeps from killing things that matter.

[MikeTAR]

Have you taken in to account the following.

Distance from Top, Bot and Mid base towers to Fountain?

Edit also notice that the legion's throne towers are closer to the mid rax then the hellbournes? Doesn't this compensate for the fact that base towers are closer to the hb fountain?

i think the base is already balanced you've just not considered all factors just one.

[Hubaris]

Those extra buildings are a plus. They delay HB creeps from killing things that matter.

Double edged I suppose. They don't exactly bide you too much time compared to how much gold they provide overall.

Time, what is time?

[`11411181]

There's more balance implications in the extra 300 units of space to get out of one base, since that is basically an extra second of movement - which is positioning if you're in a race to do stuff pre-0:00 (warding the pull).

[Example27]

MikeTAR in my opinion there shouldn't be any compensation as far as the base layout is concerned. They should be the same.

[MikeTAR]

MikeTAR in my opinion there shouldn't be any compensation as far as the base layout is concerned. They should be the same.

But that would illude from the fact that this map is based of a non-symetrical map.

Please explain why you think they should be identical? Also to say this about the base alone, you'd have to change the whole map lay-out lanes, kongor etc

[Tasura]

how do you measure the distances?

[Example27]

how do you measure the distances?

Hold the K key and move your cursor around. That's the default bind and if you use your K key for something else then I don't know, as there is no option for that in the Controls menu.


But that would illude from the fact that this map is based of a non-symetrical map.

Please explain why you think they should be identical? Also to say this about the base alone, you'd have to change the whole map lay-out lanes, kongor etc

Because it's the base and they should be the same. As it doesn't give any real depth to the game if it's harder for one side to destroy others base for no apparent reason. Unless I am missing some bigger picture which is quite possible. Rest of the map of course should be asymmetrical.

--------------------
Ontopic: Pollywog's Wards placed at the middle rax, on the Legion side, can be reached by both ancient towers, while on the Hellbourne side barely one tower of the two can reach them.
Also since the Legion base is more compact the ancient towers have more effective range then the Hellbourne ones.

[Farosarg]

My biggest concern with this comes from the pushing situations when you are forced to dive the T3 tower to either zone the defenders out or grab kills to secure the death of the tower and raxx. Being able to dive that much further into Hellbourne base before the T4 towers start to shoot can make a difference, compared to how you can barely go past the raxx in Legion base only to have the T4 towers open up on you.

[girard`]

I'd have to agree with Hubaris here. I feel that the $600 gold advantage from the extra Legion buildings could cause issue. I feel that, yes, the map is asymmetrical, but there are parts of it that have symmetry - location of OutPosts, positioning of towers, amount of jungle creep spawns (including Ancients), etc. I feel that the bases should be another part of the symmetrical parts of the map.

PS: Anyone notice we're ONLY talking about Forests of Caldavar here? We haven't scraped the surface of the other maps.

[`11411181]

Forests of Caldavar is generally the only map relevant to competitive play. Reducing variables etc.

[Hubaris]

All balance discussion is made for 5v5 Forests, it can be said that Darkwood and Grimm's could have completely different metas and completely different tiers of heroes and strategies that can be applied to them. So talking strictly Forests makes it much easier to create a 'vacuum' where you can discuss heroes without too many overwhelming factors.

[Dominare]

compared to how you can barely go past the raxx in Legion base only to have the T4 towers open up on you.

True. In fact, its very possible to be in a situation where the middle rax tower and both the shrine towers are pelting you in legion base, whereas in the hellbourne base you can dance around mid rax almost as much as you like without worrying about shrine aggro. Having said that, given the other map advantages hellbourne have, I'm probably OK with legion mid rax being ever so slightly harder to push.

[holylighthps]

I don't think this fact has changed the result of a single game in hon history

[Ekamo]

I don't think this fact has changed the result of a single game in hon history
Can you back this assertion with anything more substantial?

[Bob_Sagtits]

you could argue it affected the outcome of this game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWTiFeYASKc

[PopCokeSoda]

There's another glaring assymetry just outside of the bases, where the gap between T2 and T3 mid towers is greater in hellbourne, letting legion dive and move around freely on the other side of the T2 tower, whereas on the Legion side the gap between the max ranges of the T2 and T3 towers is like the width of a hero model, making it almost impossible to chase down legion heroes without wakeing up the T3 tower.

[Schnitzelman]

You're also not pointing out how much space is left unused behind the Hellborne fountain where the Legion area has almost nothing. Its much easier to hide back there as the hellborne if I have an idiot team who won't concede and we are getting dev hooked out of the fountain. The map is good, but maybe just a few tweaks to make it more symmetrical in the bases would be good.

[Orchest]

I just remembered this thread. I can confirm there's no deliberate intent behind it. Originally, the World Tree was so close when Icefrog first remade it that the t4 towers could hit things hitting the rax.

[Ekamo]

Not a whole lot more will come out of this thread.

Thread closed.